S01.E07: The Eye

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

Survivors of a cataclysm try to find safety; the Harfoots confront evil; Durin is torn between friendship and duty; Adar considers a new name.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any spoiler from outside the books and stories (including previews or the movies) should be in spoiler tags.

[Camera One]

My thoughts as the episode began were, okay, so elves can survive pyroclastic flows.  Super healing powers and all that.  Then... oh, so Numenoreans can survive pyroclastic flows too.  Since they were gifted with longer lives.  And then came the parade of surviving Southlanders.  Who knew that tavern was like a clown car and could hold so many people.  I thought most of them died during the preceding battle.

When Mt. Doom erupted, Galadriel was right in the village, and somehow she and Theo walked off in a completely different direction away from all the habitations?  Galadriel only encountered a single survivor, when there were apparently so many?  Did her wisdom tell her no one can survive a pyroclastic flow so let's not bother to look for and help survivors?  She called Halbrand twice and Elendil once and then gave up.

I would never have imagined it, but I think an episode with Theo, of all people, actually made Galadriel more likeable.  She was able to show a bit of vulnerability and her consolation of Theo was actually quite kind and her wisdom and regret showed.  So she met her husband Celeborn in a glade of flowers, and that was that was the last time she saw him?  I must have missed the middle of that monologue when she was talking about Celeborn looking like a clam shell.

Meteor man was trying to fix the tree, so let's just stand under it, and get mad at him when the branch breaks.  I actually thought the Harfoot storyline in the first few episodes were a nice break from the grimness, but due to the horrendous writing, they've become such an oxymoron, emphasis on the morons.  They chant they stick together, and then they leave invalids at the back of the caravan.  One episode, the gossipy lady was all 'Let's all take away their wheels and let them die!' and now she see-sawed her way to 'Let's help warn Meteor Man about the ultra powerful psycho Eminem worshippers'?  So I couldn't feel warm and fuzzy with this week's "We stay true to each other!" speech.  For all we know, next week, they will devolve to cannibalism or something.

It took them one day to hike to Numenorean base camp after an eruption.  What if Arondir had led the Southlanders in this direction instead of heading back to the village, eh? 

The Numenoreans sure got to their ships quickly.  

Miriam losing her sight was kind of sad.  I wish we got a bit more of her, though, since it was hard to know why she became more resolved to help Galadriel after what happened.  Even Elendil was cursing the elf.  Poor Isildur's friend.  The Numenoreans will probably flock to Pharazon's side when they find out how many of their soldiers were lost.   The sea is always right, but a volcano sure isn't.

I disliked the Elrond and Durin stuff from a few episodes ago, but they won me back a little with their friendship in this one.  Somehow, the scenes with Durin and his father sort of dragged.

At the end, the changing of the words from Southlands to Modor with goofy Halloween font was amateurish.  Though I was all ready to cringe since I expected Adar to say Mordor out loud.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Camera One

[paulvdb]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Though I was all ready to cringe since I expected Adar to say Mordor out loud.

I think I would have actually liked that more than what we got with the on screen text changing.

[WritinMan]

Wow...that Balrog reveal and the naming of Mordor were so...sudden and unearned. It's like they just threw it in and said: "See guys! Here's some Lord of the Rings stuff for you!"

I don't care at all about the Harfoots. That is the worst story line in the show.

[thuganomics85]

While I think this show has definitely improved in a lot of ways in these latter episodes, it's still crazy to me how much more I'm invested in Durin and Elrond's friendship compared to everything else.  Sure, some of the actual story is atypical with them (like with most everything else), but the actors really have managed to make me buy into this friendship and root for them to come out on top.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why the rest hasn't been able to match that.

And it's not like I hate everyone else or anything.  I obviously felt bad that Miriel lost her eyesight, sympathize with Elendil over losing Isildur (although, is he actually dead?  Kind of suspicious over that little bit), and thought Theo reuniting with his mother/Bronwyn was nice enough.  But it still just lacks whatever emotional impact I had for the characters in the original films or, again, the bond between Durin and Elrond.  After seven episodes, I would have thought I would have had more investment than I am.  Weird.

At least it looks like the Hartfoots are now just going to only consist of four of them (Nori, her friend, her mother, and leader dude) going off to warn the Stranger, but I still could care less about any of this stuff.

Oh, hey, it's the Balrog!  And they finally revealed the Mordor name!  I know those things!  Ah, references!!!

[Colorado David]

i feel like the Harfoots story and the elves/dwarves/mordor story should be two separate shows, they kind of feel slammed together IMO. like a writers room discussion - "we need a nice light hearted side to counterbalance the bleak of this darker story". it works in tolkien's books, not sure why it's not working for me here.

[quarks]

The pacing of this show remains very odd - both too slow and too fast at the same time. This episode was a perfect example: so much of it contained slow, lingering scenes that made it seem as if the episode was slow moving, even while giving us various things that felt totally unearned, like, not at random:

1. The Southlands people deeply invested in the fate of Halbrand, like, why?

2. Nori zipping back and forth about what she thinks about the Stranger - sure, one or two of those moments felt earned, but only one or two.

3. Largo's whole speech about the Harfoots sticking together, which....we have just seen multiple examples of you guys not sticking together! If you want me to believe this, you needed to show more more examples of Harfoots sticking together!

4. Why any Dwarf would think that being Half-Elven would make a difference, especially since as far as we can tell from the show, Elrond is only hanging out with Elves and Dwarves, not humans. (I mean we even had a image of him turning away from humans a few episodes back.)

Not to mention all of the various questions, like, how exactly did so many people survive a VOLCANO (pretty much all but one or two named characters, as far as I could tell), why someone who is supposedly so injured that he can only be cured by Elvish medicine can still ride a horse, and why the film editors felt we needed that whole SOUTHLANDS er that is MORDOR thing at the end there.

I did like quite a lot of stuff here - that conversation between Galadriel and Theo was probably the most likeable either character has been so far  (though you still suck, Theo, no matter how many times you wave that sword around). The Dwarf stuff was all great; I particularly liked that technically, both sides were right - the older Durin was absolutely spot on about the risk of helping the Elves here, and the younger Durin was also spot on about how not helping was also awful. I loved seeing that new ruthless streak from Disa, who continues to be a highlight of the show, and the friendship between Poppy and Nori - another delight. I just remain kinda baffled by many of the narrative choices here. 

[peridot]

I don't understand how people were overlooked when the main party left to go to the ridge.  When Galadriel and Theo linked up, I thought I saw someone standing in the background.  The main party left without trying to see if there were any other survivors?  Theo made me roll my eyes, when he tried to charge a Orc party twice. 

Where did the Orcs disappear to after the explosion?  They somehow left, re-appeared in the woods, and then went back to the village?

It was pretty odd that Halabrand was on death's door, but recovered enough to ride on a horse.

The fade of "Southlands" to "Mordor" was pretty cheesy.  They could have left that part out.

This wasn't the best episode.

[Athena5217]

I am so over these Harfoots. They ask Meteor man to fix the dead tree, stand directly underneath a branch of the dead tree, then get mad at Meteor man when a branch breaks off the dead tree and falls on one of them. They are supposed to be close to nature but seem to have no understanding of how branches break on dead trees. DUH.

I am actually hoping Tilda Swinton’s tree-burning ancestors will kill most of the Harfoots except Nori and Poppy so I don’t have to watch them anymore.

I do love the Elrond and Durin relationship. I think it’s the most interesting storyline.

[shrewd.buddha]

This show is so frustrating. The show runners want certain characters to have scenes together but don't bother having it make sense as to how they got there.

How did Theo and Galadriel end up separated from the villagers?  The 'previously' scene clearly showed Galadriel in the village. Were the Numenar soldiers and Queen Miriam in a different village looking for survivors? 

Galadriel did seem less rigid and obsessed and more empathetic and philosophical when she was alone with Theo. 
And the Orcs seem to transport wherever the show needs them - - always a new supply showing up as needed. 

Halbrand has an abdominal wound so serious, it requires Elfin magic.  But he hops on a horse and rides off at full gallop. ?? 
And the instant worship of Halbrand by the villagers is very confusing.  How is their king, exactly?  Family name? The special key chain that could be stolen? (One of his featured traits is being a pickpocket.)

The show runners want Galadriel and Halbrand to stay together for some reason.  The reasons for Halbrand not staying with 'his people'  were contrived.  The Elfin magic should have been brought to him if he were so injured.
Are only (maybe) kings worthy of receiving Elfin magic? There were a lot of burn victims and more injured people who couldn't walk, much less ride a horse.

The Harfoots and Meteor Man story feels like it has dragged out too long.  How were those new creepy wizard women (?) not able to catch up to Meteor Man with their abilities?  They obviously didn't appreciate being blatantly lied to by Nori.  Nori's Mom joins the very dangerous search party for Meteor Man, but leaves her husband and younger daughter behind? Weird. 

Elrond and Durin: enjoyable interaction but silly conflict.  Would the Elfin race just decide to wither and die because the Dwarves don't want to mine in dangerous conditions? Wouldn't the Elves be willing to mine the mithril themselves for their own survival? Wouldn't they go to war to survive?  How long do the Elves have to live? Would only the Elves in MiddleEarth die?
Is there any tension as to whether the mithril will be mined or if the Elves will survive? 

Only one episode left.  I am curious as to where the show runners will leave certain story lines. I feel sure there will be one or more major cliffhangers. 
For me, the problem with prequels is that for the most part we know where the story is going and how things are going to end up.  The unknowns are just the people and details that were not mentioned in LotR and Hobbit movies/books. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Scout Finch]

Wrong episode.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Scout Finch

[Camera One]

It seems like some of the problems on this show can be fixed with a bit more thought and oversight.

For example, if they wanted Galadriel and Theo to be separated from the rest and spend half an episode together, they could have had the two of them on the outskirts of the village at the end of the previous episode (separately) for some logical reason.  Then, at the start of this episode, they could have shown a wall of flames that blocked them from the rest of the village or large pieces of rubble that landed between them and the village, so they had to detour around.

It would be interesting to analyze the season as a whole after.  Each of the overarching subplots, from the Elrond/Elves/mithril one, to the Numenor one, were plotted out in a clunky fashion.  The simplest subplot to look at is probably the Harfoot one over the last few episodes.

The Harfoots' yo-yo-ing of "We hate you" and "We like you" towards the stranger (and Nori's alternating trust and distrust of him) was unnecessary and a bit of a waste of time.  Don't have the Stranger save the gossipy lady from the wolves, and don't have Nori almost freezing herself by interrupting the ice healing ritual, or this episode's dumb tree branch accident.  The wolf incident could have instead changed the mind of Nori's parents, maybe the stepmother, if she were to join the quest at the end of this episode.  Nori could have watched the ice healing and become uneasy for some other reason... maybe the ice spreads to and freezes a plant or a bird or something.  Then, in this episode, when Nori and the family arrive finally at the orchard, have this be the first time the others see them since they were at the back of the caravan.  The other Harfoots would force the Stranger to leave, and before he exits, he does whatever he did with the tree.  As it was, the Harfoot leader hadn't seen the Stranger do any supernatural things - why would he expect the Stranger to be able to help anyway?  So then, the next morning, when they see the apple trees revived, the other Harfoots would realize the Stranger was trying to help them and change their mind about him and maybe feel some remorse that the Stranger demonstrated the "help each other" mantra more than them.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Camera One

[shrewd.buddha]

This may have been discussed in other forums (the book, spoiler  forums), but I thought it worth mentioning here:
  I think the show runners are heading into  controversial territory by making the Orcs a reasoning, talking race of "people" who are rallied into battle by a war speech by Adar to "take back their lands." 
I had thought the Orcs were supposed to be creatures/animals/demons created and used by a sorcerer as puppets.  Making them sympathetic to any degree and giving them a reason to fight makes killing them offhandedly problematic.
They are supposed to be like robots, aliens, vampires or zombies in other genre stories: mindless, evil killing machines that the "heroes" can kill in great numbers without any remorse. 

If would be one thing if Adar was insanely evil and in his warped mind he considers them to be his children who have hopes and dreams.  But were are being shown that they do communicate and reason and can be influenced by a motivational speech -- they do not seem to be mindlessly evil creatures.

Edited October 9, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Harvey]

56 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

This may have been discussed in other forums (the book, spoiler  forums), but I thought it worth mentioning here:
  I think the show runners are heading into  controversial territory by making the Orcs a reasoning, talking race of "people" who are rallied into battle by a war speech by Adar to "take back their lands." 
I had thought the Orcs were supposed to be creatures/animals/demons created and used by a sorcerer as puppets.  Making them sympathetic to any degree and giving them a reason to fight makes killing them offhandedly problematic.
They are supposed to be like robots, aliens, vampires or zombies in other genre stories: mindless, evil killing machines that the "heroes" can kill in great numbers without any remorse. 

If would be one thing if Adar was insanely evil and in his warped mind he considers them to be his children who have hopes and dreams.  But were are being shown that they do communicate and reason and can be influenced by a motivational speech -- they do not seem to be mindlessly evil creatures.

This post surprised me. Orcs were never mindless. Even in the original LOTR movies, they have desires, arguments, and clear intelligence. They value bravery and loyalty. They always had a reason to fight, their point of view is just less explored because we watched events happen from Gandalf / Frodo / Aragorn's etc. point of view.

Quote

They are supposed to be like robots, aliens, vampires or zombies in other genre stories: mindless, evil killing machines

Um...no? Not at all. I would bring up the book examples of why not but we don't do that here, but this is a factually incorrect take.

[shrewd.buddha]

Do Orcs have relationships, families, children? 
I was under the (maybe wrong) impression that they were creatures who were created by sorcery - - not a race a beings that could exist and thrive on their own. 
For some reason I thought Sauron had an Orc creation factory in one of the LotR movies.  I did not think Orcs could create Orc offspring. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Penman61]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:33 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

For me, the problem with prequels is that for the most part we know where the story is going and how things are going to end up.  The unknowns are just the people and details that were not mentioned in LotR and Hobbit movies/books. 

Prequel Problems. Between Andor,  Better Call Saul's wrap-up and this show--especially this episode with the forced/contrived callforwards--this problem is really driven home. Obviously, stories can still be quite enjoyable (some research has shown more enjoyable) if the audience already knows the outcome, so prequels shouldn't be too hamstrung just by the fact of being prequels.

Yet, especially in discourse around these stories, SO MUCH EMPHASIS IS ON the prequel connecting to its very well-known sequel: Is that Sauron? When will Jimmy become Saul? Is Andor a committed rebel yet? When will Galadriel become more Cate-Blanchetty and less Girl-Warrior Revenger? IS IT MORDOR NOW YOU GUYZ!?!??

Moreover, the usual most dire stakes--death--are unavailable to characters we know survive the prequels. (BCS got it right, imho, by knowing that the character journey and not the outcome should be the focus.) I mean, I don't suppose we're really too worried about Isildur's "death," are we?

Middle Earth lore is so vast and deep that it was probably impossible to conceive a Second-Age epic adaptation without mentioning characters from LOTR films, but perhaps TROP creators should have tried not to make them their story's focus. And they are, at least so far, blowing it with Galadriel and with death misdirects, imho.  

[Camera One]

I wonder what resolutions we will get in the next episode.  There will no doubt be some great twists.

Scene: LINDEN

GALADRIEL: I demand to speak to the King.  

ELROND: We are dealing with a very serious gardening issue here.  Look, this tree is sick and we're all going to die!

GIL-GALAD: What the hell are you doing here, Galadriel!  Look at this tree, it is all YOUR fault!

GALADRIEL: Did you not get the memo?  Orcs are alive and well in the Southlands and the agents of Sauron have caused a volcanic eruption that will darken the skies as dank as the cellars of Aule.

GIL-GALAD: Well, all will be well.  I have some wonderful new advisors who are helping me with my decision making these days.  Adarina, are you here?  And coven of Eminem?

Four cloaked figures enter, their faces concealed.

ADARINA: You called, my lord?

GALADRIEL: You look sort of familiar.  

ADARINA:  Yes, I totally didn't have a conversation with you in a barn in the South Lands but I took a detour and got here half a day before you.

THE OTHER 3 CLOAKED FIGURES:  So did we.

NORI: Sorry, I was following these three.  Am I interrupting a meeting?

HALBRAND: I'm sorry, but I have a wound.  Can someone heal it?

STRANGER: I help.  My beard made of mithril.

MIRIUM: Hello, I decided to drop by in case anyone needed a Palantir.  This port is on the way to Numenor.

DISA:  And you have my axe!

GALADRIEL: The Palantir is giving us a message.  SAURON is in the room with us RIGHT NOW.  One of us is Sauron!

FADE TO BLACK.  Who is it?  Who is Sauron?  Join us for Season 2 in 2024.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Camera One

[JustHereForFood]

11 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

This may have been discussed in other forums (the book, spoiler  forums), but I thought it worth mentioning here:
  I think the show runners are heading into  controversial territory by making the Orcs a reasoning, talking race of "people" who are rallied into battle by a war speech by Adar to "take back their lands." 
I had thought the Orcs were supposed to be creatures/animals/demons created and used by a sorcerer as puppets.  Making them sympathetic to any degree and giving them a reason to fight makes killing them offhandedly problematic.
They are supposed to be like robots, aliens, vampires or zombies in other genre stories: mindless, evil killing machines that the "heroes" can kill in great numbers without any remorse. 

If would be one thing if Adar was insanely evil and in his warped mind he considers them to be his children who have hopes and dreams.  But were are being shown that they do communicate and reason and can be influenced by a motivational speech -- they do not seem to be mindlessly evil creatures.

I don't see any discrepancy there. They are able to talk and probably think in some way, but they are still evil and haven't been shown to do any good deed. Just because one of them has some motivation that the others follow (creating a place with specific conditions to live in) doesn't make them any sympathetic to me, because they have pnly murdered, stolen and destroyed inhabited land to reach this end.

If they were just some mindless animals, like a pack of wolves hunting on their territory, or zombies who just do things without any thought, I might have felt some sympathy for them if they only do what is natural to them and can't think of any better. But if they can think in manner similar to people, even if it is primitive, that means they choose to be evil. So, no thanks, no sympathy.

[quarks]

11 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Do Orcs have relationships, families, children? 
I was under the (maybe wrong) impression that they were creatures who were created by sorcery - - not a race a beings that could exist and thrive on their own. 
For some reason I thought Sauron had an Orc creation factory in one of the LotR movies.  I did not think Orcs could create Orc offspring. 

Answering with slight spoilers from the books and spoilers from The Fellowship of the Ring film:

Spoiler

Tolkien mentioned in several sources that Orcs "breed," so they seem to have children, but that doesn't seem to translate into relationships or families. At least, not that we see from the books. In The Hobbit, one group of goblins, who all live underground, do seem to have some sort of social structure, but we don't learn much about it. 

In the movie, Saruman creates an Uruk-Hai factory of sorts, where he creates extremely Orcs able to run in sunlight - something that trolls can't do, and something that the lesser orcs/goblins in Moria and Mordor can struggle with. 

[QuantumMechanic]

Spoiler

Saruman creating orcs able to withstand the sun

wasn't a movie creation; it happened in the books, too (or at least was very heavily implied).

[shrewd.buddha]

12 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

If they were just some mindless animals, like a pack of wolves hunting on their territory, or zombies who just do things without any thought, I might have felt some sympathy for them if they only do what is natural to them and can't think of any better. But if they can think in manner similar to people, even if it is primitive, that means they choose to be evil. So, no thanks, no sympathy.

I considered LOTR to be a basic good-versus-evil story with not much gray area - - so I had thought Orcs were created or altered by an evil sorcerer to be evil and do evil things. I did not think they had much free will, exactly -- or at least they wouldn't form armies and attack other areas without being lead by a sorcerer (or evil Elf).   ... . like a pack of hellhounds, dragons or trolls that could be somewhat trained and used in battle.
But Adar seemed to be imply that Orcs were like some type of indigenous race who had cause to reclaim their lands - by as brutal means as possible. 
It doesn't help that Galadriel said she wanted to keep Adar alive so he would live to see her kill all his 'children'.  Ugh,
For me, these type of PG-13 action-adventure stories are more satisfying without the muddled ethical issues.  But maybe they are trying to be more like Game of Thrones ...

Edited October 10, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Affogato]

26 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I considered LOTR to be a basic good-versus-evil story with not much gray area - - so I had thought Orcs were created or altered by an evil sorcerer to be evil and do evil things. I did not think they had much free will, exactly -- or at least they wouldn't form armies and attack other areas without being lead by a sorcerer (or evil Elf).   ... . like a pack of hellhounds, dragons or trolls that could be somewhat trained and used in battle.
But Adar seemed to be imply that Orcs were like some type of indigenous race who had cause to reclaim their lands - by as brutal means as possible. 
It doesn't help that Galadriel said she wanted to keep Adar alive so he would live to see her kill all his 'children'.  Ugh,
For me, these type of PG-13 action-adventure stories are more satisfying without the muddled ethical issues.  But maybe they are trying to be more like Game of Thrones ...

A lot of Tolkien is pastoral vs industrial and Adar, originally a pastoral elf, retains some nostalgia for flowery fields and sunlight. He can find common ground with Arondir, previously a grower from (somewhere or another). But he is now a leader of industry with many employees and factories, and he hopes to expand his industrial empire and increase his profits and earnings. So, yes, Adar and his orcs and the men from the southlands in his employ are in fact indigenous peoples, building strip mines, strip malls and orc housing projects, and working in the orc weapons facilities. Mind you, this is a bit of an exaggeration of real life, where the industrial revolution was not actually 'evil', but hyperbole is common in literature and often used to make a point.

Adar's anger at being mistaken for Sauron makes me think that Adar may not know Sauron is still around and may think he is acting on his own. Maybe.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Affogato

[wanderingstar]

Add me to the group that's frustrated by the Harfoot storyline. It just feels like it hasn't moved all that much. I keep waiting for Nori and Poppy to strike out on their own. Because the other Harfoots aren't doing much for me. I'm guessing we'll get the reveal (or maybe just a hint) of who The Stranger is in the finale.

I liked the Galadriel/Theo scenes, although I did keep wondering about the whereabouts of Bronwyn and Arondir.

Felt bad for Elendil. I wanted to give him a hug when he started crying.

I too wondered how the gravely injured Halbrand was riding off with Galadriel. Guess it's one of the many things I gotta hand wave on this show.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Camera One]

So far, the Harfoot storyline hasn't been connected to the other stories at all.  So I wonder if Galadriel and Halbrand will bump into the Stranger, the cultists or Nori's company in the last episode.  I was expecting Galadriel to spend most of next episode with Elrond and Gil-galad, but I wonder if her journey will be featured instead, considering the distance is far (though the writers don't tend to care about that much).  I'm not watching previews, so I guess we will find out next week.  I can imagine the Stranger having a negative reaction to Halbrand, which will fuel further speculation that he is Sauron.  I can also imagine a scene where the cultists attack Nori and friends, and Galadriel arrives to save the day.

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I considered LOTR to be a basic good-versus-evil story with not much gray area - - so I had thought Orcs were created or altered by an evil sorcerer to be evil and do evil things. I did not think they had much free will, exactly -- or at least they wouldn't form armies and attack other areas without being lead by a sorcerer (or evil Elf).   ... . like a pack of hellhounds, dragons or trolls that could be somewhat trained and used in battle.
But Adar seemed to be imply that Orcs were like some type of indigenous race who had cause to reclaim their lands - by as brutal means as possible. 
It doesn't help that Galadriel said she wanted to keep Adar alive so he would live to see her kill all his 'children'.  Ugh,
For me, these type of PG-13 action-adventure stories are more satisfying without the muddled ethical issues.  But maybe they are trying to be more like Game of Thrones ...

The Second Age is all about muddled ethical issues.  And it's not so much about Orcs or Elves, but of Men.  "Power corrupts" very much a central theme.  In a general sense this show is following that template.  Whether they are delivering a good product is, well, debatable.  

Edited October 10, 2022 by PeterPirate

[tv-talk]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:55 PM, JustHereForFood said:

because they have pnly murdered, stolen and destroyed inhabited land to reach this end.

Who says they werent there first? I think that's what the show is going for and it's best aspect to it so far. They flipped the script in that after Adar was captured it was Galadrial who almost seemed evil with her talk of total genocide against the Orcs and making him watch. Is he talking about wiping humanity or elves off the face of the Earth? His goal appears to have been creating a place with little sunlight so his people could come out of the caves.  Is that so bad really? Are we so sure that the Southlanders are such good people? Didnt they align with pure evil previously? Didnt half the village just throw in with what they might have thought was Sauron?

The ambiguity is good touch to the story even though we know exactly where things end up once Sauron emerges.

[SharonH58]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:21 AM, Camera One said:

Meteor man was trying to fix the tree, so let's just stand under it, and get mad at him when the branch breaks.  I actually thought the Harfoot storyline in the first few episodes were a nice break from the grimness, but due to the horrendous writing, they've become such an oxymoron, emphasis on the morons.  They chant they stick together, and then they leave invalids at the back of the caravan.  One episode, the gossipy lady was all 'Let's all take away their wheels and let them die!' and now she see-sawed her way to 'Let's help warn Meteor Man about the ultra powerful psycho Eminem worshippers'?  So I couldn't feel warm and fuzzy with this week's "We stay true to each other!" speech.  For all we know, next week, they will devolve to cannibalism or something.

I disliked the Elrond and Durin stuff from a few episodes ago, but they won me back a little with their friendship in this one.  Somehow, the scenes with Durin and his father sort of dragged.

How do those people survive when they are so stupid?   When MM's arm was freezing for the pain, Nori just grabbed it.   Everytime he helps them they treat him bad.   Then she runs up to 3 strangers and starts talking about the Meteor man.   How about hiding??  The is what y'all are all about?

How can mithril 'save' the Elves when it is some ore they know nothing about?   I think that one elf just wants it for $$

[JustHereForFood]

On 10/10/2022 at 3:39 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

I considered LOTR to be a basic good-versus-evil story with not much gray area - - so I had thought Orcs were created or altered by an evil sorcerer to be evil and do evil things. I did not think they had much free will, exactly -- or at least they wouldn't form armies and attack other areas without being lead by a sorcerer (or evil Elf).   ... . like a pack of hellhounds, dragons or trolls that could be somewhat trained and used in battle.
But Adar seemed to be imply that Orcs were like some type of indigenous race who had cause to reclaim their lands - by as brutal means as possible. 
It doesn't help that Galadriel said she wanted to keep Adar alive so he would live to see her kill all his 'children'.  Ugh,
For me, these type of PG-13 action-adventure stories are more satisfying without the muddled ethical issues.  But maybe they are trying to be more like Game of Thrones ...

I am generally in favor of morally grey characters, but there still need to be some obvious good and bad IMO and the orcs have always been shown as bad. To change that now is to me like what Disney has been doing with creating "sympathetic" backstories for their worst villains like Cruella, which I am not a fan of. Sure, the World is often complicated in terms of morality, but here still needs to be a clear understanding what is good and evil.

9 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Who says they werent there first? I think that's what the show is going for and it's best aspect to it so far. They flipped the script in that after Adar was captured it was Galadrial who almost seemed evil with her talk of total genocide against the Orcs and making him watch. Is he talking about wiping humanity or elves off the face of the Earth? His goal appears to have been creating a place with little sunlight so his people could come out of the caves.  Is that so bad really? Are we so sure that the Southlanders are such good people? Didnt they align with pure evil previously? Didnt half the village just throw in with what they might have thought was Sauron?

The ambiguity is good touch to the story even though we know exactly where things end up once Sauron emerges.

And that is evil.

They have basically done a fantasy equivalent of dropping a nuke there. The fact that people can now, in current world situation still root for them after that, is scaring me to no end. (Yes, I know the series has been shot years ago and the fact that there are so many obvious paralleles to current situation is a coincidence. It's still hard to see any sympathy for orcs here. To me, it's like seeing people being sympathetic for russians and nazis, which is a huge problem in the real world as well.)

[Emily Thrace]

13 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Who says they werent there first? I think that's what the show is going for and it's best aspect to it so far. They flipped the script in that after Adar was captured it was Galadrial who almost seemed evil with her talk of total genocide against the Orcs and making him watch. Is he talking about wiping humanity or elves off the face of the Earth? His goal appears to have been creating a place with little sunlight so his people could come out of the caves.  Is that so bad really? Are we so sure that the Southlanders are such good people? Didnt they align with pure evil previously? Didnt half the village just throw in with what they might have thought was Sauron?

The ambiguity is good touch to the story even though we know exactly where things end up once Sauron emerges.

The ambiguity ends though when you realize Orcs are cannibalistic and people are one of their main food groups. Ultimately Orcs will never be able to live side by side peacefully with the rest of the people of Middle Earth. That's not to say they are inherently evil but like the Balrog or Shelob they were created to hurt and kill other beings. Letting the Orcs  just settle in Mordor would be like trying to raise a pack of wolves next to a flock of sheep.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

The ambiguity ends though when you realize Orcs are cannibalistic and people are one of their main food groups. Ultimately Orcs will never be able to live side by side peacefully with the rest of the people of Middle Earth. That's not to say they are inherently evil but like the Balrog or Shelob they were created to hurt and kill other beings. Letting the Orcs  just settle in Mordor would be like trying to raise a pack of wolves next to a flock of sheep.

For example:

(tagged because it's from a book (The Hobbit), not because it's a spoiler for this show)

Spoiler

Fifteen birds in five firtrees,
their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze!
But, funny little birds, they had no wings!
O what shall we do with the funny little things?
Roast 'em alive, or stew them in a pot;
fry them, boil them and eat them hot?

Burn, burn tree and fern!
Shrivel and scorch! A fizzling torch
To light the night for our delight,
        Ya hey!

Bake and toast 'em, fry and roast ’em
till beards blaze, and eyes glaze;
till hair smells and skins crack,
fat melts, and bones black
         in cinders lie
         beneath the sky!

So dwarves shall die,
and light the night for our delight,
         Ya hey!
         Ya-harri-hey!
         Ya hoy!

[shrewd.buddha]

15 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

They have basically done a fantasy equivalent of dropping a nuke there.

10 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

.. Orcs are cannibalistic and people are one of their main food groups. Ultimately Orcs will never be able to live side by side peacefully with the rest of the people of Middle Earth. That's not to say they are inherently evil but like the Balrog or Shelob they were created to hurt and kill other beings.

.. but are the Orcs the driving force themselves?  Or are they very dangerous, simple-minded, barbaric creatures that are being used by others?

The "nuclear bomb" (very complicated tunnel/water setup) was created long ago by Morgoth , Sauron (?). They even carved a user guide on a rock wall.
This device was discovered by Adar  (though it seems the Watchtower Elves should have found the rock carving during all their years stationed in that area).
Adar saw the rock wall instructions, helpfully  exposed by Arondir,  and decided to use the "bomb".   
...But it was an actual human who pulled the trigger  (put the key in the lock).

The Orcs just seem like the dumb muscle minions or henchmen.  Left to their own devices, they might be dangerous but would they be able form a large organized threat to others?  Or would they be small scattered groups who fought amongst themselves and mainly scavenged for food? Large armies require large quantities of food and supplies: are Orcs capable of managing that?

Yet still .. how could it be that no one ever found the rock wall carvings, all those connecting tunnels or the mechanics of the water release system during all that time? Wasn't it all right there at the Elves' Watchtower station?

Edited October 13, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Affogato]

20 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

They have basically done a fantasy equivalent of dropping a nuke there. The fact that people can now, in current world situation still root for them after that, is scaring me to no end. (Yes, I know the series has been shot years ago and the fact that there are so many obvious paralleles to current situation is a coincidence. It's still hard to see any sympathy for orcs here. To me, it's like seeing people being sympathetic for russians and nazis, which is a huge problem in the real world as well.)

No one country is bad or evil, there will be mostly good or neutral folk, living their lives. The Southlands seem to be this sort of people.

To the people of the Southlands Adar and his Orcs are definitely invaders, guilty of what we would call 'war crimes', in many cases. The orcs and Adar are taking possession of a rich area that other people are living in. They aren't the good guys.

It is possible that the humans that join Sauron eventually become Orcs, or undergo procedures or mutations that make them Orcs.  It is possible that somewhere or another there are a group of proto orcs, as peaceful as can be, who raise and eat sheep rather than humans and generally stay in their lane. There is evidence that these aren't those Orcs. Again, they aren't the good guys.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Affogato
no politicians

[tv-talk]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:37 AM, Affogato said:

Again, they aren't the good guys.

The point is not them being "the good Guys." Rather it's the notion that they are just trying to live. And that now, maybe they'll just stay in there darkened world. Again, the Southlanders had allied with Morgoth previously- so what exactly makes them "the good Guys"? When half of them joined Adar and were fine with that kid getting his throat slit as an offer of blood? Oh and it turns out that they love Sauron too lol.

I just think the writers wanted to show a little ambiguity there and I like it. Adar seemed downright sympathetic when Galadrial was going all Aryan race on him. 

On 10/12/2022 at 11:04 PM, Emily Thrace said:

Letting the Orcs  just settle in Mordor would be like trying to raise a pack of wolves next to a flock of sheep.

Humans basically exterminated wolves too- was that a good thing? I think the show just wanted to raise a little moral questioning which is much different than how Tolkien did it.

[Tyro49]

Just who are those three ladies dressed in white? I can't bring anything to mind that they might be ancestral to.

Are they the three Fates, the three Nora's, who???