S01.E07: Driftmark

[The Kings Foot]

Just one point.  People keep talking about a "cave".  That so called  cave is the lower entrance to Castle Driftmark.     If you watch,  you can see doors and steps behind the four cousins when they confront Aemond.

Not that it changes the situation but people seem confused by the geography of  what happened. 

[Glama]

47 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

The girls were not part of that.  

You have me there, I didn't remember if the girls were there or not. 

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

The girls and one of Rhaenyra's sons (Luce? the younger one) had nothing to do with that though!  In the earlier episode, it was Aegon and the older one (Jace?) who bullied him; I'm pretty sure they showed the younger one walk away before they brought out the pig.  

So Aemond decided that he needed to get revenge on... the people who did not bully him in the first place?  He bullies the girls first, and then finally Jace and Luce.  Aegon wasn't even there.

That's not a defense of Aemond.  That's just further proof that he's ALSO a bully who won't get true revenge (on his brother), but he'll only pick on kids who are smaller than him.  Classy.    

Yes, he's also a bully, but the girls started in him and he was defending himself. The girls started the physical aspect of it if I got it right. Then the boys jumped in.

I'm not defending Aemond's good character because he doesn't have any, but if I remember correctly the girls attacked him first. 

And he didn't get on Aegon because he wasn't there. Had he been there, I'm sure Aemond would've tried pummeling him too.

[FnkyChkn34]

15 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Just one point.  People keep talking about a "cave".  That so called  cave is the lower entrance to Castle Driftmark.     If you watch,  you can see doors and steps behind the four cousins when they confront Aemond.

Not that it changes the situation but people seem confused by the geography of  what happened. 

Thank you.  I thought that it was a cave - the whole episode was so dark, who could tell!

[HoneyBeach]

On 10/3/2022 at 5:49 AM, Cristofle said:

The crap lighting of this episode was the real villain, lol. I had to watch a couple scenes over to understand what was going on. 

It's obvious at this point that Rhaenyra is the one living person Viserys loves most in the world. I think in his mind, Aemma is his one true love (despite what the role he played in her terrible death without her consent) and Rhaenyra is the child of that union, versus he realizes now that he got played re: Alicent and is not nearly as attached to their children. I don't know if it's just a tone or what, but his...lack of care for Aegon seems extra concentrated. Interesting that he wanted a living son for so long and he got not just one but two, and he's like "...Nope, still prefer Rhaenyra, thanks." Aemma was never going to survive the labor, but she truly died in such a horrendous way for nothing. He doesn't seem to want the sons he has. 

And still, if he was a more forceful personality, that scene would not have gotten nearly as far as it did. He also should have publicly repudiated Alicent more forcefully, given that he's chosen to protect Rhaenyra and her sons above all else. Alicent tried to override his explicit ruling to a member of the Kingsguard and then grabbed HIS dagger from him and attacked his daughter and heir with it. He should have made sure - in front of everyone - that such a thing never happened again.  

I don't know why the Queen wasn't locked away in a tower for her attack on the heir to the throne and her public insubordination/disobedience of the King. Is Viserys a true Targ, cause I can't tell.

[The Kings Foot]

17 hours ago, sd dude said:

I'm not one who subscribes to the theory that the implication of the sexual scenes involving Daemon is that he has chronic erectile dysfunction.  I had read in this forum regarding prior episodes that there may have been some comments made by cast or crew in post-episode production material that it was the intention for the viewer to infer that about Daemon, but honestly, that is only one interpretation for a viewer to take away and IMO something of a stretch based on what was actually portrayed.

In episode one, he seems to be in flagrante with his paramour, at which point she asks if he is troubled.  I took that to mean he is not performing as he usually does with her, and perhaps is having difficulty reaching a climax.  He also may have lost his erection, but I saw no reason to conclude that he hadn't had one immediately prior to that scene, nor that he hadn't performed adequately with that partner previously.  In terms of the latter, the partner's expression of concern implies to me exactly the opposite, unless this was meant to be the very first time the two had coupled together, which I did not infer.

The next time this seems to be a focus of attention is when he is in the brothel with young Rhaenyra, and starts something that he doesn't finish.  Is this solely because he is physically unable to achieve an erection or is it rather about him thinking better of the situation of him seducing and deflowering his teenage niece in a Fleabottom brothel, whom he has true affection for?  Obviously, his second thoughts may manifest themselves in the form of a physical (non)-reaction, but that doesn't mean he is incapable, simply that he suddenly finds himself unwilling.  Furthermore, was it ever his intention in that particular situation to have intercourse with her, or was that something she pushed the envelope on?  Maybe his intention was to tease, play, arouse, etc. and not to take her virginity that evening in that setting.  The scene does not provide us enough information to know, so my interpretation is as valid as yours.

Then there is the (final) meeting with his first wife, which many are taking as just more evidence of Daemon's sexual dysfunctions, but I really think that is an overreach.  All we know is that they  never consummated their marriage, but I think it is strongly implied that they have never tried, not that they have tried and (he) failed.  He despises her and holds her incomplete disdain.  At the very least, he has so little regard for her that he thinks nothing of leaving her to die from the elements until she manages to goad him into euthanasia.  He may accept that they are betrothed by law, but in his heart and mind she is not his wife and they are not partners in any way, shape or form.

Fortunately, the fact that he has produced 2 daughters with his second wife and the fact that there appears to be no hesitation with grown-up Rhaenyra on the rebound should put to rest the idea that he can't perform when he wants to and when he is inspired and when not vexed by shit going on at the office.

If I'm going to stretch my own speculation, I am willing to theorize that he does have a sexual fetish for phenotypes reminiscent of Old Valaria, most notably white-haired persons, regardless of skin tone.  Perhaps he performs much more enthusiastically with partners of that type, but I don't think that means chronic ED has been his issue.

Personally my theory is that for all his bad boy bluster   Daemon is actually the kind of person who requires a lot of comfort with his partner to perform.  Another character would use aggressive sex with his mistress to ease his frustrations.  Daemon needs his frustrations eased first to perform.  The brothel scene with R might have been sexy sexy but it was also escalating beyond Daemon's comfort level.  And finally with his wife , I'd say its very likely he couldn't perform on their  wedding night because she was a stranger to him and then she promptly got angry at him.  Which is why he always calls her a Bronze B.  

By contrast Laena is practically the perfect wife.  Understanding of her husbands moods and not belittling him for things he cant control.  (ie she wasnt his first choice.).  While R on the beach is essentially telling him.  I need you.   Which is probably something he hasnt heard often. 

16 hours ago, Affogato said:

If laenor claims yhem are they not legitimate?

see below

15 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If no one believes it then they'd always have to be looking over their shoulder because a legitimate relative could use it as justification for rebellion.  Joffrey was legally a Baratheon, but that didn't stop Stannis or Renly - sure, they may have known he was a little shit, but they wouldn't have been able to raise an army so quickly if he was trueborn.

Eaxctly.  What we have going on here is a reverse Joffrey.  R's kids are bastards  but  they may actually be better people than the alternatives. 

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

She taunted him by saying "I knew you couldn't finish".  I think there's a clear implication that he had failed to finish in the bedroom.

see my comment above. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, UnoAgain said:

But how exactly has Rhae doing whatever she wants actually hurt Alicent?

If Rhaenyra hadn't birthed her brood of bratty bastards, Alicent wouldn't feel danger for her children and herself.  Instead, Rhaenyra had to produce her plain-faced sons, which calls into question the legitimacy of their succession.  Even if Alicent wanted to support Rhaenyra, everyone with a grievance is going to use the obviousness of those transgressions as justification for opposition and some sort of conflict is inevitable.  Because Rhaenyra lacked self-control and because she couldn't figure out a way for Laenor to impregnate her, she practically guaranteed a civil war.

Rhaenyra prioritized her own sexual satisfaction over the many lives that will be lost in the coming war.  Much of the suffering that is obviously coming in the rest of the show is all her fault.  Any town that gets set on fire is all her fault.  The deaths of any of her children are all her fault.  She had a duty to not f--- around and now she's going to find out.

Alicent is just trying to make sure her children won't be among those lives lost.  Forced to play the game of thrones, she is merely doing what she has to do to try to win and not die.

[Constantinople]

34 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

At least Rhaenyra is actively trying to be a good person

She just conspired to murder an innocent person so she could bigamously marry her uncle. And she was the one who initiated the idea of dead Laenor one way or the other.

Quote

raise her children to be good people

Who just tried to murder their uncle. By her reaction she's taught them that's OK.

Quote

and wants to be a good leader.

I'm struggling to see any evidence of this to date.

Good leaders don't gaslight their subjects.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If Rhaenyra hadn't birthed her brood of bratty bastards, Alicent wouldn't feel danger for her children and herself.  Instead, Rhaenyra had to produce her plain-faced sons, which calls into question the legitimacy of their succession.  Even if Alicent wanted to support Rhaenyra, everyone with a grievance is going to use the obviousness of those transgressions as justification for opposition and some sort of conflict is inevitable.  Because Rhaenyra lacked self-control and because she couldn't figure out a way for Laenor to impregnate her, she practically guaranteed a civil war.

Rhaenyra prioritized her own sexual satisfaction over the many lives that will be lost in the coming war.  Much of the suffering that is obviously coming in the rest of the show is all her fault.  Any town that gets set on fire is all her fault.  The deaths of any of her children are all her fault.  She had a duty to not f--- around and now she's going to find out.

Alicent is just trying to make sure her children won't be among those lives lost.  Forced to play the game of thrones, she is merely doing what she has to do to try to win and not die.

You missed the part where Otto told Alicent that her sons' mere existence is a threat to Rhaenyra and her claim.....before Rhaenyra was even married and had children.....Alicent is blaming the wrong person.

[LadyChaos]

Just now, Constantinople said:

She just conspired to murder an innocent person so she could bigamously marry her uncle. And she was the one who initiated the idea of dead Laenor one way or the other.

Who just tried to murder their uncle. By her reaction she's taught them that's OK.

I'm struggling to see any evidence of this to date.

Good leaders don't gaslight their subjects.

That conspiracy also set Laenor free to live his life.....and what about Alicent makes her better than her? One of her companions beat a man to death in the throne room full of witnesses and she got him out of it....and the other, murdered his father and brother to 'further her cause' but she ain't doing anything about it.

The same uncle who threatened for feed them all to his dragon? Just so we're clear? 

And Rhaenyra has on multiple times came up with suggestions for problems in the realm that would resolve the issue with minimal bloodshed....but they were ignored because she, as a woman, had the audacity to give an opinion.... 

Everyone gaslights and manipulates people at some point when it suits them. Alicent and everyone else in this show and in the real world is not excluded from that. And Rhaenyra had good reason to do so.

[Cristofle]

50 minutes ago, Glama said:

You have me there, I didn't remember if the girls were there or not. 

They definitely were not, they were basically halfway around the world, lol (I don't think Aemond had ever seen the two girls before this day) and yet it was Rhaena - the younger of the two girls - he almost immediately chose to aim that insult at (which is when she shoved him). He could have chosen to address a young, grieving girl who doesn't have a dragon (and he knows the frustration of that all too well), if not with empathy, just SOMETHING other than sneering disdain. Immediately going in with the attitude of a bully when you are facing four upset and grieving kids is a choice. Continuing that attitude when it's clear you're outnumbered is also a choice. And it led him getting his ass handed to him.

Honestly, if anyone threatened to beat my brother's brains in with a rock and I had a knife on me, it would not matter who started what or how many people were with me, I'm fighting back with everything I have. If that knife is what I have, it's what I'll use. I do think Jace also pulled out the knife in fury, but Aemond was asking for someone to start using deadly force when he chose to go that route first. It's like Aemond never considered attempting to deescalate even to protect himself, and I think that's because he was on such an ego high after riding Vhagar. He assumed he was somehow untouchable and unbeatable, even as one person facing four. At no point did I see him reacting out of fear, only arrogance. If he'd been fearful, I probably would have been more sympathetic. Alas, he was not untouchable when his dragon wasn't with him in that moment and someone else had a knife. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Cristofle

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

He himself has his own lover....and given that this world is a 'medieval fantasy' it actually wasn't that unheard of for women to have very discreet affairs after they produced an heir...even in GOT, everyone knew that Cersei's children were not Roberts children but without concrete proof they couldn't really do anything about it....

Not true, even after Stannis and company spread the rumours of that far and wide, plenty of people did not believe them and thought he had found a convenient pretext for a rebellion. And in the period of GoT which most resembles the current situation in this show (the calm before the storm, so to speak), almost nobody knew. If Robert had known, he would have certainly had Cersei executed and probably the children as well, that was the whole point of Ned's moral dilemma which led to his demise.

As for doing anything about it - a lot of people did something about. Namely a large scale rebellion, exactly the thing many people in-show expect to happen once Viserys kicks the bucket. It might well have happened even if Rhaenyra were the most faithful wife ever but the adultery rumours increase the possibility quite a bit. Since there are no DNA tests in Westeros, proof is not particularly relevant, what matters is whether enough powerful individuals believe the rumours (or pretend to believe them as an excuse to overthrow a monarch inconvenient for them).

A woman who is blatantly trying to pass her bastards as legitimate, even though (as we are told in this very episode) everyone thinks that they are not, is going to face a lot of backlash. And yeah, women did have affairs, of course but Rhaenyra's affair is anything but discreet, that's the main reason she is in hot water now. She even told her nine-year old son who his real father was. When freaking Cersei is smarter and more discreet, you know that a character is being reckless. Rhaenyra wants to enjoy the benefits of a system where lineage is of paramount importance while also flouting the conventions about marital alliances, legitimate children, etc.

Quote

Rhaenyra prioritized her own sexual satisfaction over the many lives that will be lost in the coming war. 

Exactly. Even worse, Westeros has a rather convenient contraception tea she could have used to avoid becoming pregnant. Or at least have only one child, so that there would be a lot more plausible deniability about who the father might be. Alicent has been off her rocker since the last time skip, don't get me wrong, but Rhaenyra is not exactly a pleasant alternative.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Funny how he chose the younger, smaller boys, and two girls completely unrelated to that incident in any way, vs his older, larger brother, aka the instigator, to 'get back at'... 🤔 very funny that.

This.

His brother wasnt part of the group confronting him while he was trying to get to his room, the girls were.

I keep hearing how he was bullying them yet I have yet to hear how its ok to respond to words with violence. If the shoe was on the opposite foot aemond wouldve been blasted but because hes green, hes now expected to comfort people and play by the rules and apparently shrug off being physically attacked.

[Affogato]

29 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Good leaders don't gaslight their subjects.

I do agree we aren't seeing a lot of stellar vision-for-Westeros behavior from literally anyone, but there are active discussions about whether a good leader gaslights. I say most of them do bend the truth or mark classified on documents.

[rhygirl720]

Okay wow. Some great storytelling! Sides are being drawn and the discussion is a perfect reflection. 

Aemond is a rogue from his own grandfather. Likely the quality that allowed him to claim Vhagar the largest chess piece. Thrilling scene.

If anyone can recall an instance when a queen regent could disarm her husband king defy his direct order and threaten an heir and live, please let me know. It was treason and unfortunately the king's weakness is truthfully the root cause of all the infighting.

I'm glad Laenor got his freedom.

Helaena's new omen "𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗻𝘀 𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗺, 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗼𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗻, 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗼𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗯𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗸. 𝗗𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗳𝗹𝗲𝘀𝗵 𝘄𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱' thoughts?

I can't wait for the next episode.

[UnoAgain]

2 hours ago, Glama said:

Doesn't anyone remember how all the other kids were bullying Aemond in an earlier episode, giving him a pig as a dragon? I think he was only getting back at them for bullying him.

I don't remember seeing Rhaena or Baela there.. And the main instigator of that embarrassing scene was Aegon

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, rhygirl720 said:

Helaena's new omen "𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗻𝘀 𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗺, 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗼𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗻, 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗼𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗯𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗸. 𝗗𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗳𝗹𝗲𝘀𝗵 𝘄𝗲𝗮𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱' thoughts?

I can't wait for the next episode.

Clearly there is a massive tea cosy in Westeros’s future. 

seriously the last scene of the show may fade to a tapestry, indicating it is history?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Affogato

[UnoAgain]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Not true, even after Stannis and company spread the rumours of that far and wide, plenty of people did not believe them and thought he had found a convenient pretext for a rebellion. And in the period of GoT which most resembles the current situation in this show (the calm before the storm, so to speak), almost nobody knew. If Robert had known, he would have certainly had Cersei executed and probably the children as well, that was the whole point of Ned's moral dilemma which led to his demise.

As for doing anything about it - a lot of people did something about. Namely a large scale rebellion, exactly the thing many people in-show expect to happen once Viserys kicks the bucket. It might well have happened even if Rhaenyra were the most faithful wife ever but the adultery rumours increase the possibility quite a bit. Since there are no DNA tests in Westeros, proof is not particularly relevant, what matters is whether enough powerful individuals believe the rumours (or pretend to believe them as an excuse to overthrow a monarch inconvenient for them).

A woman who is blatantly trying to pass her bastards as legitimate, even though (as we are told in this very episode) everyone thinks that they are not, is going to face a lot of backlash. And yeah, women did have affairs, of course but Rhaenyra's affair is anything but discreet, that's the main reason she is in hot water now. She even told her nine-year old son who his real father was. When freaking Cersei is smarter and more discreet, you know that a character is being reckless. Rhaenyra wants to enjoy the benefits of a system where lineage is of paramount importance while also flouting the conventions about marital alliances, legitimate children, etc.

Exactly. Even worse, Westeros has a rather convenient contraception tea she could have used to avoid becoming pregnant. Or at least have only one child, so that there would be a lot more plausible deniability about who the father might be. Alicent has been off her rocker since the last time skip, don't get me wrong, but Rhaenyra is not exactly a pleasant alternative.

I have no idea up to this point in the show if Rhae would be a good Queen... But she's the heir.. Cersei passed off Non-Baratheons as legitimate... Any child of Rhae that would take thebiron throne would be named Targaryen.. Which is exactly what they are... If anyone has a right to be angry about the boys.. It's house Velaryon... I've always believed this was just the most convenient cudgel the old westerosi lords and ladies could use... Their problem is.. They grow tired of these foreign Velaryians with their hair and "queer" customs and dragons.. And now they want to put a WOMAN in charge... A step too far.. The foreigners don't look like them.. (Just look at house velaryon.. And their racially diverse army) they speak some other language.. They still honor their "pagan" past.. And the westerosi are looking for a chance to really quell some of that power... To bring it to the real world... Look at the reactions to any of the race-swapped characters in recent years ( well white to non-white... The opfather... went on for decades without much broohaha) do I think that all these ppl are tru blu racists when they're freaking out?... No but just seeing something that's outside their norm makes them uncomfortable and they start to look for reasons to prove their uncomfortableness is warranted and not just bs....i think part of why alicent is so pressed is her own internal misogyny mixed with jealousy... It's wild enough that they want to make a woman ruler.. But.. At least to alicent and her way of thinking.. If it's gonna be a woman.. How is it right that it's a woman like Rhae.. Who looks to buck the system all the time.. Who has extramarital sex.. Owns her sexuality.. Who disobeys her father etc etc.. It should be a woman like me.. Who obeys her fathers command.. Who let's her husband bed whenever no matter if she wants it or not.. And produces "legitimate " heirs

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

That conspiracy also set Laenor free to live his life....

How does that justify murdering someone?

I'll be clear here, while earlier on I DID think Alicent was better than Rhaenyra, I now think they're equally as bad.  But Alicent is more fun in her unhinged state.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Can someone actually explain to me what they feel that Rhaenyra does that is 'OMG THE END IS NYE IF SHE SITS THE THRONE!?!'

I mean comparatively? Yes her children are not her husbands....but she is married to a man who has no interest in bedding her and therefore she took having children into her own hands. And her husband is okay with it and claims the children as his own. He himself has his own lover....and given that this world is a 'medieval fantasy' it actually wasn't that unheard of for women to have very discreet affairs after they produced an heir...even in GOT, everyone knew that Cersei's children were not Roberts children, but bore his name and without concrete proof they couldn't really do anything about it....and at the end of the day, the royal line flows through Rhaenyra's veins, not her husbands, so all her children legitimate or not, have claim to the throne over Alicent's sons' because they are not the next heirs to the throne. After that...what? She has the audacity to enjoy sex? OMG! The horror!

At least Rhaenyra is actively trying to be a good person, raise her children to be good people, and wants to be a good leader.

Whereas Alicent has actively spent the past 10 years working with people behind the scenes to sow dissent and chaos to undermine Rhaenyra....and has actively raised her children to hate and dispise their sister and her children. Raised her kids to believe they have a right to something their father has no intention of ever giving them.

It's less what she has done than who she is, and less that the end is nigh in general than that the end is nigh for Aegon and Aemond.

Rhae is a woman. We have been told that the Realm will not stand for a true queen ruling by both Rhaenys and Otto, and there is no real reason to think that they aren't being accurate in their assessment. (Indeed, thanks to GOT, we know that Westeros still couldn't swallow the notion of Myrcella as queen, and only accepted Cersei as actual queen when all the purported male heirs of Robert were dead.)

We have seen one lord directly say the equivalent of, "Well Viserys, now that you have a son, we can get ready for him to take his rightful place as king, right?" It is entirely foreseeable that Rhae will face a rebellion when Viserys dies and she tries to take the throne.

If Rhae were a different person -- a considerate or honorable person -- or in a different time or situation, someone in Ali's position could think that Rhae would not feel threatened by Aegon/Aemond, and that they could work a long-term compromise.

But Rhae is someone who has been raised in the Targaryen way of taking what they want, doing what they want, no obstacles should get in the way.

And the easiest thing for Rhae to do to remove the possible obstacle to her uncontested reign is to kill Aegon/Aemond.

Again, it might be unthinkable to some that Rhae would stoop to that. But Ali has been given a first-hand lesson from Larys that some people are just that ruthless to kill their own kin.

Alicent has every reason to think that Rhae is more like Larys, when she has flouted every rule. Sexual morality for a woman from their perspective is central, and someone who would corrupt a Kingsguard into betraying his oath of celibacy, someone who would cheat on her husband and have obvious bastard children and pass them off as heirs, is at least arguably capable of who knows what.

We the audience know that Rhae is capable of a murder conspiracy, thanks to this episode. Although Ali doesn't know those particulars, she does know enough to suspect it, I think.

I'm not sure what Rhae is doing to be a "good person." She put out an olive branch by proposing her son marry Ali's daughters to unite the houses, true. But I'm not sure if I can point to anything that she has done that was in the same ballpark as "good" especially when one factors out her self-interest.

Similarly, I don't think we have seen evidence of a wide-ranging conspiracy to sow dissent for 10 years, or really at all.

Larys tells her about the moon tea before the time jump and offers to tell her info. Presumably, during the time jump, he also fed her information. But there is no reason to believe that by the time we got to the end of the jump, she has done anything to "sow dissent" or anything at all but bitching and moaning to Cris and Larys. In complaining to Larys, Ali asks if there is no one on her side in King's Landing. So if she/they have been sowing dissent, it sounds like they have not been particularly successful at it.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[UnoAgain]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's less what she has done than who she is, and less that the end is nigh in general than that the end is nigh for Aegon and Aemond.

Rhae is a woman. We have been told that the Realm will not stand for a true queen ruling by both Rhaenys and Otto, and there is no real reason to think that they aren't being accurate in their assessment. (Indeed, thanks to GOT, we know that Westeros still couldn't swallow the notion of Myrcella as queen, and only accepted Cersei as actual queen when all the purported male heirs of Robert were dead.)

We have seen one lord directly say the equivalent of, "Well Viserys, now that you have a son, we can get ready for him to take his rightful place as king, right?" It is entirely foreseeable that Rhae will face a rebellion when Viserys dies and she tries to take the throne.

If Rhae were a different person -- a considerate or honorable person -- or in a different time or situation, someone in Ali's position could think that Rhae would not feel threatened by Aegon/Aemond, and that they could work a long-term compromise.

But Rhae is someone who has been raised in the Targaryen way of taking what they want, doing what they want, no obstacles should get in the way.

And the easiest thing for Rhae to do to remove the possible obstacle to her uncontested reign is to kill Aegon/Aemond.

Again, it might be unthinkable to some that Rhae would stoop to that. But she has been given a first-hand lesson from Larys that some people are just that ruthless to kill their own kin.

Alicent has every reason to think that Rhae is more like Larys, when she has flouted every rule. Sexual morality for a woman from their perspective is central, and someone who would corrupt a Kingsguard into betraying his oath of celibacy, someone who would cheat on her husband and have obvious bastard children and pass them off as heirs, is at least arguably capable of who knows what.

We the audience know that Rhae is capable of a murder conspiracy, thanks to this episode. Although Ali doesn't know those particulars, she does know enough to suspect it, I think.

I'm not sure what Rhae is doing to be a "good person." She put out an olive branch by proposing her son marry Ali's daughters to unite the houses, true. But I'm not sure if I can point to anything that she has done that was in the same ballpark as "good" especially when one factors out her self-interest.

Similarly, I don't think we have seen evidence of a wide-ranging conspiracy to sow dissent for 10 years, or really at all.

Larys tells her about the moon tea before the time jump and offers to tell her info. Presumably, during the time jump, he also fed her information. But there is no reason to believe that by the time we got to the end of the jump, she has done anything to "sow dissent" or anything at all but bitching and moaning to Cris and Larys. In complaining to Larys, Ali asks if there is no one on her side in King's Landing. So if she/they have been sowing dissent, it sounds like they have not been particularly successful at it.

Not actively reinforcing to all those around that Rhae and her line will be on the throne is sowing dissent it's tacitly saying.. Sure she's heir for now.. But after visy is dead we got these boys ... Teaching your kids that rhae and their nephews are threats is sowing dissent.. Replacing a Lord and his heir in a major westerosi house.. Who happen to.. at the very least.. Plan honoring the kings decree that Rhae is heir.. With someone who most def plans to be against it.. Is sowing dissent.. Protecting the man who murdered a Knight allied with house velaryon( and thus rhae) in cold blood.. Is sowing dissent... Wearing your house war colors to the pre-wedding celebration of the heir( a move meant to solidify her claim )in plain view of many Lords and Ladies of the realm... Is sowing dissent. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, UnoAgain said:

Any child of Rhae that would take thebiron throne would be named Targaryen.. Which is exactly what they are... If anyone has a right to be angry about the boys.. It's house Velaryon... I've always believed this was just the most convenient cudgel the old westerosi lords and ladies could use... Their problem is.. They grow tired of these foreign Velaryians with their hair and "queer" customs and dragons.. And now they want to put a WOMAN in charge... A step too far.. The foreigners don't look like them.. (Just look at house velaryon.. And their racially diverse army) they speak some other language.. They still honor their "pagan" past.. And the westerosi are looking for a chance to really quell some of that power...

Er it's hard to see the Green as the Anti-Targaryen option when Alicent's white-haired children are marrying each other. At this point the Targaryens have ruled Westeros for over a hundred years. Literally no one alive knows a time when they weren't the overlords, and in fact, to the existing old generation, the "good old days" will be time of the Old Targaryen King and his Good Targaryen Queen-sister.

If anything the preference for the Greens side is because Aegon and his siblings look and act more Targaryen than Rhaenyra's brown-haired "common-faced" children, who - to make matters worse - don't have a sister to marry in the Targaryen way.  King Aegon II (and his sister-wife Queen Helena) has a much nicer ring to it than King Jacerys Velaryon. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by ursula

[UnoAgain]

Just now, ursula said:

Er it's hard to see the Green as the Anti-Targaryen option when Alicent's white-haired children are marrying each other. At this point the Targaryens have ruled Westeros for over a hundred years. Literally no one alive knows a time when they weren't the overlords, and in fact, to the existing old generation, the "good old days" will be time of the Old Targaryen King and his Good Targaryen Queen-sister.

If anything the preference for the Greens side is because they look and act more Targaryen than Rhaenyra's brown-haired "common-faced" children, who - to make matters worse - don't have a sister to marry in the Targaryen way. 

I see that.. My thinking on that is.. Her Targaryens.. Are more westerosi.. They'll have the hair and the dragons., sure. But are taught by Hightowers and oldtown and the faith of the seven.. An on a more practical level.. Those kids will listen to us.. Compared to any kids rhae produced ( even ones that did come from Laenor).. Which would be in the hands of Targaryens like Rhae, Dae, Rhanys and house velaryon... Old Valaryia... Viserys seems to have been an accommodating King... Rhae and her children may not( who am I kidding...of course they won't)...  Kind like some of the European countries and how they assimilated some of the northmen who came to their shores.. No choice but to accept them or it's war.. May as well fold them in and change them to our way. 

[Meredith Quill]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

His brother wasnt part of the group confronting him while he was trying to get to his room, the girls were.

I keep hearing how he was bullying them yet I have yet to hear how its ok to respond to words with violence. If the shoe was on the opposite foot aemond wouldve been blasted but because hes green, hes now expected to comfort people and play by the rules and apparently shrug off being physically attacked.

I never mentioned bullying. I was specifically responding to dismantle a remark about Aemond's behaviour being characterised as 'getting back at' that group of children. If the rationale for his uncalled for initial nastiness was because he wanted to 'get back' at someone, he should have proactively chosen the instigator long before now. But he didn't because the actual instigator of the previous incident is bigger and older than him and in a 1v1 he'd have his butt kicked. Simples. 

36 minutes ago, ursula said:

Er it's hard to see the Green as the Anti-Targaryen option when Alicent's white-haired children are marrying each other. At this point the Targaryens have ruled Westeros for over a hundred years. Literally no one alive knows a time when they weren't the overlords, and in fact, to the existing old generation, the "good old days" will be time of the Old Targaryen King and his Good Targaryen Queen-sister.

If anything the preference for the Greens side is because Aegon and his siblings look and act more Targaryen than Rhaenyra's brown-haired "common-faced" children, who - to make matters worse - don't have a sister to marry in the Targaryen way.  King Aegon II (and his sister-wife Queen Helena) has a much nicer ring to it than King Jacerys Velaryon. 

Viserys made it very clear that while they're Velaryons now, once Jacerys ascends the throne he'll become King Jacerys Targaryen.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Viserys made it very clear that while they're Velaryons now, once Jacerys ascends the throne he'll become King Jacerys Targaryen.

Corlys agreed to that during the marriage negotiations. So he is all in.

[ursula]

44 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

I see that.. My thinking on that is.. Her Targaryens.. Are more westerosi.. They'll have the hair and the dragons., sure. But are taught by Hightowers and oldtown and the faith of the seven.. An on a more practical level.. Those kids will listen to us.. Compared to any kids rhae produced ( even ones that did come from Laenor).. Which would be in the hands of Targaryens like Rhae, Dae, Rhanys and house velaryon... Old Valaryia... Viserys seems to have been an accommodating King... Rhae and her children may not( who am I kidding...of course they won't)...  Kind like some of the European countries and how they assimilated some of the northmen who came to their shores.. No choice but to accept them or it's war.. May as well fold them in and change them to our way. 

The bolded is what really matters. Just like Tywin wanted his grand-son on the Throne to act as his puppet King, so does Otto. It's not about Old Valyria vs Westeros because all living Targaryens practise the Faith of the Seven. 

The fact that Otto and Alicent are happy to further incest says it all. This is not a religious or cultural conflict. It's power and control, plain and simple. 

19 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Viserys made it very clear that while they're Velaryons now, once Jacerys ascends the throne he'll become King Jacerys Targaryen.

Ah, I must have missed that. Well the point still stands that he might have the name but he won't have the look, compared to white-haired, purple-eyed Aegon and Aemond Targaryen. Like Alicent named her first son after the Conqueror. Talk about being as subtle as sledge hammer.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ursula

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If so, why didn't the writers create a maternalistic society? 

It seems that this show tried to it both ways: it is full of senseless violence (and nobody protests against it) but in one point it tries to please the audience (if Rhaenyra can have modern ideals out of nowhere, why other characters don't get pacifist and equalitarian ideas?).   

Maybe I'm missing exactly what we're talking about, but I can easily believe that a princess in a paternalistic society could hold what we would call feminist beliefs regardless. Rhaenyra is just looking at how things would be different if she were a man and asking why.

11 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe my view is overly colored by modern politics, but why shouldn't someone who colors within the lines and does what duty requires be angry at the person who never gets punished for doing wrong things and always gets away with perpetuating some big lie that affects how the realm is to be ruled.  Alicent is completely justified in being mad.

I think her feelings are normal enough that everyone understands them, they're just not necessarily going to help her. That's why at the end of Ferris Bueller his sister is happier when she stops stewing over how unfair it is that Ferris gets away with everything. As Charlie Sheen tells her,  she could ditch too.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Thus, instead of concentrating on who did "right" or was "likeable", the crux of matter seems to be: who has most abilities to win in the power game? 

Machiavelli says that the ruler must *seem* benevolent to his people but underneath he must be capable to be ruthless if it's necessary. Daemon and Rhaenyra agreed that she must seem to be capable to do evil deeds in order to make her opponents to fear her. Although the deed wasn't done, we know that at least Daemon is capable to do it.

I think this was central to the whole incident--Aemond had the guts to claim a big dragon, which bodes well for him winning the throne even over his older brother. But his arrogance made him a number of enemies who worked together. So the incident doesn't really prove that Aemond's the winner. Lots of things can happen.

4 hours ago, Glama said:

And he didn't get on Aegon because he wasn't there. Had he been there, I'm sure Aemond would've tried pummeling him too.

Oh, I don't think he would have. He didn't do it at the time Aegon bullied him. Besides, Aegon probably wouldn't have cared that he did this or felt the need to defend his cousins that way.

4 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If Rhaenyra hadn't birthed her brood of bratty bastards, Alicent wouldn't feel danger for her children and herself.  Instead, Rhaenyra had to produce her plain-faced sons, which calls into question the legitimacy of their succession.  Even if Alicent wanted to support Rhaenyra, everyone with a grievance is going to use the obviousness of those transgressions as justification for opposition and some sort of conflict is inevitable.  Because Rhaenyra lacked self-control and because she couldn't figure out a way for Laenor to impregnate her, she practically guaranteed a civil war.

Sure she would. The danger comes from Rhaenyra having any sons. In fact, the sons she has are a big benefit for Alicent. She was always planning to have her own kids try to grab the throne. This way they have more of an excuse and would attract more followers. The Civil War would happen against blonde children as well. 

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

They definitely were not, they were basically halfway around the world, lol (I don't think Aemond had ever seen the two girls before this day) and yet it was Rhaena - the younger of the two girls - he almost immediately chose to aim that insult at (which is when she shoved him). He could have chosen to address a young, grieving girl who doesn't have a dragon (and he knows the frustration of that all too well), if not with empathy, just SOMETHING other than sneering disdain. Immediately going in with the attitude of a bully when you are facing four upset and grieving kids is a choice. Continuing that attitude when it's clear you're outnumbered is also a choice. And it led him getting his ass handed to him.

Also, it seems important to his character that he was doing this at a moment when he himself would have been feeling great. They were influenced by emotional distress. He was in the best emotional place he's been since we met him.

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I keep hearing how he was bullying them yet I have yet to hear how its ok to respond to words with violence. If the shoe was on the opposite foot aemond wouldve been blasted but because hes green, hes now expected to comfort people and play by the rules and apparently shrug off being physically attacked.

It's not okay to respond to words with violence. It's just not in itself bullying, which is what Aemond is being described as doing. 

I don't think it has anything to do with his being a green. Nobody's telling him to shrug off being physically attacked or comfort people who attacked him. 

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Also, it seems important to his character that he was doing this at a moment when he himself would have been feeling great. They were influenced by emotional distress. He was in the best emotional place he's been since we met him.

Yes, absolutely. If I had really seen him being upset and frightened at being faced with four angry kids, even if he'd tried somehow to get out of the way, I would have been more sympathetic when he started really going back hard. But he was not afraid. He thought he was at the absolute top of his game, and he responded to a girl who was not only grieving her mother but was also in the situation he'd been in all his life until about an hour prior, with the same mocking disdain Aegon showed to him. He did not need to respond to her initial distress by telling her she was more suited to a pig, and when that DID result in her shoving him, tbh, he could have just taken it, being shoved by a younger and smaller girl. Or he could have had the sense to know that when he responded in kind, the other three were going to defend her. This kid thought he was invincible and he could now be as mean to Rhaena as others had been to him, and threaten a bunch of kids who were already pissed off and in the middle of a brawl with him that he would feed them to his dragon, and nothing would happen to him. Welp. He was wrong. 

[go4luca]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

Ah, I must have missed that. Well the point still stands that he might have the name but he won't have the look, compared to white-haired, purple-eyed Aegon and Aemond Targaryen. Like Alicent named her first son after the Conqueror. Talk about being as subtle as sledge hammer.

Yep, that's Alicent.  She made that sledge hammer abundantly clear when she entered the pre-wedding feast fashionably late, in that Hightower beacon green gown, and congratulates her step daughter on her blessing of soon being wed.

[mledawn]

Just in general, folks referring to "Rhae" when there is more than one character with a name beginning with R-h-a-e is confusing.

House of the Dragon is set in a world where people are violent. Getting shirty when a character responds to words with violence is applying modern sensibilities to this fantasy series.

This show has a young man is set to marry his sister, and we just watched an uncle have sex with his niece. I mean...perspective. There aren't a lot of high horses around.

[ursula]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Also, it seems important to his character that he was doing this at a moment when he himself would have been feeling great. They were influenced by emotional distress. He was in the best emotional place he's been since we met him.

After years of being bullied, he gets a big gun dragon, and this is how he chooses to behave. Very much "does this remind you of something?" vibes in his story.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ursula

[Dac22]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

even in GOT, everyone knew that Cersei's children were not Roberts children, but bore his name and without concrete proof they couldn't really do anything about it....

Well, I mean it ultimately started a whole war so people certainly tried to do something about it. 

Quote

and at the end of the day, the royal line flows through Rhaenyra's veins, not her husbands, so all her children legitimate or not, have claim to the throne over Alicent's sons' because they are not the next heirs to the throne. 

Again, it goes beyond the throne as Luke is set up to be the head of House Velaryon and inherit Driftmark despite having no Velaryon blood within him.

Even if Corlys is cool with it, that doesn't mean the rest of the house and lords about the realm would be as it sets a precedent that the king/queen can just usurp houses whenever they want. It's like if Robert would have named Gendry head of House Tyrell.

Speaking of Gendry, I also doubt the realm would have been a fan of him inheriting the throne ahead of a trueborn son with the Queen, either. The rules/laws of the realm can't be bent in isolation unless one is willing to accept the probable consequences.

Quote

Whereas Alicent has actively spent the past 10 years working with people behind the scenes to sow dissent and chaos to undermine Rhaenyra..

 To be fair, it's two entirely different situations.

Rhaenyra has everything so it actively benefits her to have peace where as Alicent's sons will metaphorically have to live their lives with a sword at their throat. 

Their very existence is always going to be a threat to Rhaenyra's reign. Even if they don't want it like Aegon, that isn't going to stop other lords and such from pushing the idea of him to rule, especially if Rhaenyra proves to be a mediocre one. 

While Alicent's behavior is objectively terrible, she seems to be preparing for the inevitable as the best chance of her boys surviving is removing the sword from their throat by taking the throne. So while horrible, it's understandable in that regard.

[UnoAgain]

4 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Well, I mean it ultimately started a whole war so people certainly tried to do something about it. 

Again, it goes beyond the throne as Luke is set up to be the head of House Velaryon and inherit Driftmark despite having no Velaryon blood within him.

Even if Corlys is cool with it, that doesn't mean the rest of the house and lords about the realm would be as it sets a precedent that the king/queen can just usurp houses whenever they want. It's like if Robert would have named Gendry head of House Tyrell.

Speaking of Gendry, I also doubt the realm would have been a fan of him inheriting the throne ahead of a trueborn son with the Queen, either. The rules/laws of the realm can't be bent in isolation unless one is willing to accept the probable consequences.

 To be fair, it's two entirely different situations.

Rhaenyra has everything so it actively benefits her to have peace where as Alicent's sons will metaphorically have to live their lives with a sword at their throat. 

Their very existence is always going to be a threat to Rhaenyra's reign. Even if they don't want it like Aegon, that isn't going to stop other lords and such from pushing the idea of him to rule, especially if Rhaenyra proves to be a mediocre one. 

While Alicent's behavior is objectively terrible, she seems to be preparing for the inevitable as the best chance of her boys surviving is removing the sword from their throat by taking the throne. So while horrible, it's understandable in that regard.

I can't find it understandable because she's done nothing to remedy it.. In fact she's been aggressive in making it so they will have to fight

[Dac22]

1 minute ago, UnoAgain said:

I can't find it understandable because she's done nothing to remedy it.. In fact she's been aggressive in making it so they will have to fight

Because it is viewed as the fighting is inevitable.

Given Alicent and her group isn't in the driver's seat, then waiting until the fight actually comes would be way too late. 

[Meredith Quill]

17 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

While Alicent's behavior is objectively terrible, she seems to be preparing for the inevitable as the best chance of her boys surviving is removing the sword from their throat by taking the throne. So while horrible, it's understandable in that regard.

If it's inevitable it's only because Alicent has chosen it to be so by her actions up to this point.

And by actions, I mean, listening to her slimy father when even she herself was aggrieved about him pushing Aegon forward prior to being fired. Her ongoing jealousy/disdain of Rhaenyra (whether justified or not). Her protection and keeping close of someone who sullied his own oath and murdered a noble (rules anyone?), and has blatantly been an enemy of Rhaenyra ever since. Her refusal of a marriage alliance. Her bad mouthing of Rhaneyra's children to her own children... I'm sure there's more.

ETA: How could I forget, her attacking Rhaenyra with a knife...

[Stardancer Supreme]

6 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Actually, upon further reflection, didn't Aemond get the Kingsguard to discover drunk Aegon and put him to bed?  Maybe this is Aemond planning ahead to get his brother out of his way.  Some people also defend Aemond by saying that he didn't approach the dragon until he heard her cry in anguish - but it seems to me like there are clues to show it was premeditated.  And there are also clues to show that he knew what he was doing was wrong, if he didn't want Aegon in his way to stop him.

Just another thought.

No, Granddaddy Hand Otto came upon Aegon drunk on the steps, kicking him to bed.  Nobody thought to check on Aemond, wandering about the castle.

[Dac22]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

If it's inevitable it's only because Alicent has chosen it to be so by her actions up to this point.

As I said, waiting until the fight comes would be too late. She's trying to get ahead of the curve and put her side in a better place when the fight actually comes.

If someone is a lap down in a race, then waiting for the last lap to make their move is a ridiculous strategy because there's no way that person is going to win. So most of the stuff she is doing is preparing for the inevitable.

So perhaps there is a bit of a self-fulfilled prophecy to it, but the idea that her boys could be used as tools in the future and that lead to their deaths isn't as absurd as some make it out to be in my opinion.

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

If it's inevitable it's only because Alicent has chosen it to be so by her actions up to this point.

And by actions, I mean, listening to her slimy father when even she herself was aggrieved about him pushing Aegon forward prior to being fired. Her ongoing jealousy/disdain of Rhaenyra (whether justified or not). Her protection and keeping close of someone who sullied his own oath and murdered a noble (rules anyone?), and has blatantly been an enemy of Rhaenyra ever since. Her refusal of a marriage alliance. Her bad mouthing of Rhaneyra's children to her own children... I'm sure there's more.

ETA: How could I forget, her attacking Rhaenyra with a knife...

This though. There's a strong sense of projection in Otto's (because tbc, this is where it originates from) paranoia about Rhaenyra. He expects her to behave in a certain way - murder Alicent's children to eliminate competition - because he would do the same in her place. 

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

At least Rhaenyra is actively trying to be a good person

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

She just conspired to murder an innocent person so she could bigamously marry her uncle. And she was the one who initiated the idea of dead Laenor one way or the other.

4 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

That conspiracy also set Laenor free to live his life

Setting Laenor free to live his life doesn't justify murdering an innocent person.

Quote

...and what about Alicent makes her better than her?

You claimed Rhaenyra is actively trying to be a good person. Changing the subject doesn't support that claim. It undermines it.

[UnoAgain]

22 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Because it is viewed as the fighting is inevitable.

Given Alicent and her group isn't in the driver's seat, then waiting until the fight actually comes would be way too late. 

But they have been... An heir doesn't need to do much but inherit... The hightowers and by extension the greens have been actively antagonistic to Rhae,  anything short full throated support, knowing the realm is uneasy with a female ruler,  helps create this atmosphere..if they say.. Hey we stand with the kings decision.. Make it known they are united.. Who's really even strong enough to take them on.. Targ, Velaryon, Hightower and all the lords and bannermen who follow the kings command... They nkt only didn't vocally support.. They didn't even stay quiet... They worked to sow dissent so when. Visy finally dies... Aegon and their house takes the throne 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

Just in general, folks referring to "Rhae" when there is more than one character with a name beginning with R-h-a-e is confusing.

As a culprit to this practice, I will just say that anytime when I talk about "Rhae," I mean Rhaenyra and not Rhaenys, Rhaena, or any other Rhaes we have been or will be introduced to. Hopefully it will be clear in context.

44 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

If it's inevitable it's only because Alicent has chosen it to be so by her actions up to this point.

And by actions, I mean, listening to her slimy father when even she herself was aggrieved about him pushing Aegon forward prior to being fired. Her ongoing jealousy/disdain of Rhaenyra (whether justified or not). Her protection and keeping close of someone who sullied his own oath and murdered a noble (rules anyone?), and has blatantly been an enemy of Rhaenyra ever since. Her refusal of a marriage alliance. Her bad mouthing of Rhaneyra's children to her own children... I'm sure there's more.

ETA: How could I forget, her attacking Rhaenyra with a knife...

Evil Otto did go berzerk on the subject (wink and nod to any 80s video game fans who might be in the house).

But as slimy as he might be, I'm not sure he's wrong. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's right to be frightened that conflict was inevitable.

Maybe things would have turned out different if the seed hadn't been planted in her mind that Rhae was going to have to get her kids at some point.

But maybe it would have just been more that Ali would have been blindsided when it happened.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

Just in general, folks referring to "Rhae" when there is more than one character with a name beginning with R-h-a-e is confusing.

House of the Dragon is set in a world where people are violent. Getting shirty when a character responds to words with violence is applying modern sensibilities to this fantasy series.

That. 

Self-control is a bourgeois virtue. Aristocrats irl thought that loosing one's temper because of slighest reason testifed high station. 

[Avabelle]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Alicent is just trying to make sure her children won't be among those lives lost.  Forced to play the game of thrones, she is merely doing what she has to do to try to win and not die.

Except this being for her children is just to save face. Really this is all about her jealousy and misplaced anger and blame towards Rhaenyra. She’s not being forced to do anything. She’s willingly going to war with them all. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

No, Granddaddy Hand Otto came upon Aegon drunk on the steps, kicking him to bed.  Nobody thought to check on Aemond, wandering about the castle.

Aemond was standing at the top of the stairs when Otto did that, though.  And Aegon's comment was "Brother?" 

My bad for saying it was a kingsguard member and not Otto, but I still think Aemond could easily have been behind it.

[ybrik]

Here is a bit of a weird parallel: there have been two shown funerals on the show so far and a Hightower has snuck out in the middle of the night to claim their ‘dragon’ who had just killed their pregnant partner/rider. Each time claiming the dragon before a female Velaryon could.

 Regarding the dead guy, do we know he was an innocent? He may have been a criminal or something. I would like to think that even if Rhaenyra was okay with it, Laenor wouldn’t just allow someone who was completely an innocent person to die for him. 

It was mentioned that Rhaenyra would be a bigamist but technically she wouldn’t. She married Laenor under the faith of the seven and married Daemon under Valaryian traditions. One faith wouldn’t recognize the one marriage as legal while the other faith allows multiple marriages. 

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If Rhaenyra hadn't birthed her brood of bratty bastards, Alicent wouldn't feel danger for her children and herself.  Instead, Rhaenyra had to produce her plain-faced sons, which calls into question the legitimacy of their succession.  Even if Alicent wanted to support Rhaenyra, everyone with a grievance is going to use the obviousness of those transgressions as justification for opposition and some sort of conflict is inevitable.  Because Rhaenyra lacked self-control and because she couldn't figure out a way for Laenor to impregnate her, she practically guaranteed a civil war.

Why the hell wouldn't trueborn heirs be a threat to Alicent's sons? Otto warns her of the danger to her children before any bastards are born, or Rhaenyra was even formally betrothed.  Alicent tells Aegon the boys are a threat without mentioning their bastardy. Alicent declared war at Rhaenyra/Laenor's wedding before any sons were born. The issue is that Aegon's very existence makes him a rival to Rhaenyra as Queen, not just her kids years later. The only way he could survive her reign without going into exile would be joining one of the celibate orders where men swear away titles and family ties, a life he seems entirely unsuited for. And now Alicent has created a self-fulfilling prophecy where even those alternatives are impossible because Rhaenyra will know no such mercy is likely for herself. (I have to agree with @Dac22 that conflict is inevitable, I'm just responding to the assertions Team Green would be peaceful and obedient to the king's will if the bastard princes didn't exist, which ignores every sign to the contrary over the past 3 eps.)

Evil Rhaenyra not finding a way to rape Laenor or otherwise steal his sperm for heirs. And obviouisly Otto and Alicent would never oppose her inheritance if she only obeyed the rules after they undermined Viserys for years. Good grief, seven hells, etc.

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

No, Granddaddy Hand Otto came upon Aegon drunk on the steps, kicking him to bed.  Nobody thought to check on Aemond, wandering about the castle.

Aemond was there at the top of the staricase, so I think he did tattle to Grandpa to get big bro out of the way. And I see no reason he would have behaved with the same boldness toward his actual bully when so far the most he's done to stand up to Aegon is defend the duty of marrying their (full) sister.

29 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That. 

Self-control is a bourgeois virtue. Aristocrats irl thought that loosing one's temper because of slighest reason testifed high station. 

Ah, so you admit that two under-10yo non-bastard girls had a right to be upset when one was told she was only fit to ride a pig? 😉 (But we have no evidence an eye for eye is the law of the land, especially not when both boys are heirs to the same king. If actions had consequences, Alicent would spend the rest of her husband's reign locked in her chambers after her own display.)

It's also weird to acknowledge Jace and Luke's part in the pig joke (as Aegon's minions), and then say Aemond only dislikes them for being bastards born of sin. More like he dislikes them because they're Rhaenyra's sons and he's never gotten along with them. He was just using whatever he could to hurt and insult them, including their true paternity and their biofather's recent and very violent death. Neither of Alicent's sons really care that their half-nephews are bastards, which only supports my first point above.

A couple more points about Alicent from rewatch:

1. When she steals the king's knife she actually knocks him down. Then McKingsguard Commander is delayed helping him while Ser Criston runs to back up the traitor threatening a princess with a stolen knife. (So I think he would have mutilated a child at her command, if the king and McKingsguard were not there to tell him no.)

2. Her words requesting retribution are mostly about Rhaenyra, rather than her injured son or the little kid who maimed him. At first she just says "I will have one of her son's eyes in return" as if she doesn't even care which boy. She only names Lucerys when Viserys overrules her and she turns to Criston. When she attacks Rhaenyra claiming she's only ever done her duty while Rhaenyra gets away with everything (as she points the king's stolen knife at the king's heiress), she says Rhaenyra now even feels entitled to her son's eye. Which is ludicrous as Rhaenyra did not take his eye and it's not like she was holding the eye hostage and could return it. All Rhaenyra was doing was trying to protect her own son's eyes, which Alicent felt entitled to.

3. When Alicent is regretful afterwards, she is fidgeting with her hands. A vestige of the more innocent teen Alicent whose anxiety was expressed by abusing her fingernails rather than taking her anger out on others. I think she only stops after Otto reassures her that ruthlessness is needed even if the way she went about it was stupid.

I also agree with @proserpina65 that unhinged Alicent makes for a fun character, so that's why it's frustrating to see so much denial that she was acting unhinged. There are political components driving her to support the claim of the firstborn child she dutifully cares for but also dislikes and resents, but that doesn't mean she's not also driven by deeply personal animosity toward Rhaenyra. To insist it's all black and white moral vs. immoral is not only reductive, it makes the story sound more boring than it actually is.

19 minutes ago, ybrik said:

Here is a bit of a weird parallel: there have been two shown funerals on the show so far and a Hightower has snuck out in the middle of the night to claim their ‘dragon’ who had just killed their pregnant partner/rider. Each time claiming the dragon before a female Velaryon could.

Oooo, with Viserys as the draconic ladyslayer in the pilot. Nice catch! (Though I don't think Laena herself ever really wanted to claim him.)

[paigow]

Fireplace Dude: [Internal monologue]

Fucking Lord Corlys- richest man in the kingdom pays me next to nothing... I should walk right up to him and quit... Yeah, I ggghhh

[go4luca]

I have a question.  For all of Alicent's holier than though attitude towards Rhaenyra, why was it okay for Alicent, wearing her dead Mother's dress no less, to "comfort" the King and whatever that may have entailed off screen, ahead of marriage?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

I also agree with @proserpina65 that unhinged Alicent makes for a fun character, so that's why it's frustrating to see so much denial that she was acting unhinged.

Hold up, I haven't seen anyone act as though Ali wasn't unhinged. Taking someone's knife, threatening a prince, then trying to throw down with the heir herself, ignoring the King's own commands...these are not acts of someone who is "hinged."

It's just that the reasons Ali has become unhinged aren't inherently irrational themselves.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I have a question.  For all of Alicent's holier than though attitude towards Rhaenyra, why was it okay for Alicent, wearing her dead Mother's dress no less, to "comfort" the King and whatever that may have entailed off screen, ahead of marriage?

1. People's mileage will vary, but my take is that Alicent was basically clueless as to Evil Otto's plot to present her as a potential queen, that she struck up a true friendship with the King that turned into a romance, and that they didn't do anything till marriage.

2. Assuming for discussion's sake that Ali was an eager co-conspirator, trying to romance Viserys is not unethical either by the standards of Westeros or our own. At least, as far as we know, she just courted Viserys honorably and chastely until they got married.

3. Assuming further for discussion's sake that Ali was the Westeros Lolita and giving Viserys ALL the premarital sex his decrepit, two-pump-chump ass could handle, her actions would still not be unethical by our standards or probably by Westerosi ones. Sleeping with a single partner with the intention of marriage is generally OK by ours. 

4. Assuming for discussion's sake that Ali was sleeping around and it's a huge sin in Westerosi culture: a. she was a child at the time and deserves some slack for that and b. it still would not be a sin on the scale of causing a member of the Kingsguard to break his oath or having multiple bastard children with the guy you're cuckolding your husband with.

[Lady S.]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Hold up, I haven't seen anyone act as though Ali wasn't unhinged. Taking someone's knife, threatening a prince, then trying to throw down with the heir herself, ignoring the King's own commands...these are not acts of someone who is "hinged."

It's just that the reasons Ali has become unhinged aren't inherently irrational themselves.

I'm not disputing her reasons for resentment, but there were multiple posts saying she was in the right to demand an eye for an eye even after she snapped, which does seem like a denial that she is less than wholly hinged, rational, and morally righteous.

14 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I have a question.  For all of Alicent's holier than though attitude towards Rhaenyra, why was it okay for Alicent, wearing her dead Mother's dress no less, to "comfort" the King and whatever that may have entailed off screen, ahead of marriage?

Because she never actually had pre-marital sex with him. (And I see no reason to infer offscreen fornication when Viserys was deep in mourning for the wife he actually loved.) The real moral hypocrisy is harboring two different murderers as allies, one a proud kinslayer. It's pretty fucked to think murder is less a sin than sex. Then there's the way she is now disrespecting and disobeying Viserys at every turn, no longer the meek and dutiful ladylike consort. One does not need to sleep around to not be "coloring inside the lines".

Ali absolutely knew what her father's intentions were, though. Hence her being uncomfortable and biting her nails every time he sent her to woo Viserys. And more glaringly, trying to help Rhaenyra mourn her mother in prayer and get her used to the idea of a stepmother at the same time. She was naive, but not some clueless idiot.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If Rhae were a different person -- a considerate or honorable person -- or in a different time or situation, someone in Ali's position could think that Rhae would not feel threatened by Aegon/Aemond, and that they could work a long-term compromise.

But Rhae is someone who has been raised in the Targaryen way of taking what they want, doing what they want, no obstacles should get in the way.

And the easiest thing for Rhae to do to remove the possible obstacle to her uncontested reign is to kill Aegon/Aemond.

We the audience know that Rhae is capable of a murder conspiracy, thanks to this episode. Although Ali doesn't know those particulars, she does know enough to suspect it, I think.

I'm not sure what Rhae is doing to be a "good person." She put out an olive branch by proposing her son marry Ali's daughters to unite the houses, true. But I'm not sure if I can point to anything that she has done that was in the same ballpark as "good" especially when one factors out her self-interest.

It's not just whether Rhaenyra would see them as political threats (which has little to do with honor or consideration and more with political reality) but whether she's fine with open kinslaying. Even Larys is not trumpeting his kinslaying because it's the worst crime there is, far above any adultery or fornication. The Night's Watch is a peaceful way to remove any rival lords/kings and disinherit any men. (Also the Citadel and the Faith, which are both headquartered in Oldtown, so maybe not the safest means of removal. Same goes for the Kingsguard at court, even if there were an opening in the seven there.) I don't really blame Alicent for not wanting her sons to be forced into exile or the Night's Watch, I'm just arguing the probabilities of Rhaenyra going straight for open kinslaying right away.

Rhaenyra is not a great person, but having sex which does not directly hurt Alicent is a far cry from already planning to slay her half-brothers. Yes, she has been in the stronger position with the king's favor, and the proposol for Jace/Helaena was in her own self-interest. But she has to know that position will all change as soon as Viserys dies, yet she has done nothing to consolidate her own position against her half-brothers. Instead she respected Viserys's wishes for a happy family by allowing her sons to grow up friends with Aegon. All while Alicent was already doing all she could to get Rhaenyra's sons out of the way. She hasn't consolidated Aegon's position either, but that seems to be more down to a lack of cunning than a lack of will, as well as Visery's own will.

Up until that confrontation in the Driftmark throne room where Ali pulled that knife on her, Rhaenyra was still defending her stepmother as not capable of murder. That attitude only changed in the wee hours of that night when battle lines were drawn and first blood was shed. The murder plot was a response to that and there's no sign Rhaenyra was ready for any murder plots before that. And not that that random servant deserved to die (and I do think he was definitely an innocent, Laenor's honor is more graded on a curve compared to Daemon's), but it is relevant that the victim was an unrelated stranger. And while people may suspect Rhaenyra's guilt, that's different than everyone openly knowing it. And I'd wager a lot of people might suspect Daemon arranged it without her knowledge, as he's a man and in particular a man known to be severely lacking in honor and already suspected of facilitating his second marriage by killing his first wife. (So, yeah, Daemon is absolutely a danger to all the greens, but the argument is whether Rhaenyra was equally dangerous on her own or married to Laenor. Alicent could not really have foreseen the death of "Laenor" or Rhaenyra marrying Daemon.)