S05.E04: Dear Offred

[goldilocks]

22 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Fuck with the goddam June closeups! Can these show runners not end an episode any other way?!

😆I was laughing at that scene because of this post last week:

———-

QUOTE:

STEPH369 SAID:

And does every episode have to end with her sour face? Whenever there is less than half a minute left, you know the camera is going to start zooming in on her. The camera person must be rolling his eyes each week. 

———

When the camera started zooming in with less than a minute left, I immediately thought of this post, and got a major set of the giggles. Steph nailed it. 😆

[jenn31]

8 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Janine, you'll tell me if one of the enslaved girls we're forcing to be raped three times a month by a repulsive commander is struggling. I mean, wtf? Is Aunt Lydia on drugs?

Crazy Lady. I was waiting for Janine to give her a WTF look. 

[steph369]

24 minutes ago, goldilocks said:

😆I was laughing at that scene because of this post last week:

———-

QUOTE:

STEPH369 SAID:

And does every episode have to end with her sour face? Whenever there is less than half a minute left, you know the camera is going to start zooming in on her. The camera person must be rolling his eyes each week. 

———

When the camera started zooming in with less than a minute left, I immediately thought of this post, and got a major set of the giggles. Steph nailed it. 😆

My reaction wasn’t as complimentary. 😉 I actually put my hands out and looked around the room. It’s like someone was taunting me. I had to look at the clock to make sure. Who even needs a clock, Just go by the zooming in to June’s mug. 

[goldilocks]

1 minute ago, steph369 said:

My reaction wasn’t as complimentary. 😉 I actually put my hands out and looked around the room. It’s like someone was taunting me. I had to look at the clock to make sure. Who even needs a clock, Just go by the zooming in to June’s mug. 

I wonder if Elizabeth Moss practices those faces in the mirror. 😄

[steph369]

14 hours ago, Redrum said:

I did like June's ptsd.

I liked that too. It was more realistic and definitely more interesting. I grimaced when she got the letter from Serena though. I knew she’d be back to revolutionary mood after that.

And how dense is Serena? Does she want to get herself killed? She must see how unhinged June is at the moment and is purposely taunting her. The superhero June writing was my least favourite (okay, most hated) thing. But this June vs. Serena, constant battling is growing tiresome. We need a new set of writers. Heck, I’d nominate a few Primetimer members here whose ideas have been 10 times better! 

[Bluesky]

16 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm curious if they know that Serena had a finger cut off by Gilead for reading.  The devotion to her and/or Gilead makes no sense to me, and the show hasn't done a great job of explaining why people would be acting like that. 

Crazy dangerous religious nut bags always find a small cult.  

[Bluesky]

14 hours ago, Redrum said:

Tuello confirmed it a few seasons back that they were "working on the fertility issue". Also the Mexican delegate in season one said there hadn't been a live birth in her home town in years and were looking to implement a handmaid program in Mexico.

I thought it was more the toxic waste that Gilead solved and that’s what made them unique.  It’s ridiculous that countries wouldn’t have enough young women who wanted families and would cooperate with a non abusive program.   

[steph369]

16 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm curious if they know that Serena had a finger cut off by Gilead for reading.  The devotion to her and/or Gilead makes no sense to me, and the show hasn't done a great job of explaining why people would be acting like that. 

People generally tend to romanticize things. They’re seeing the positives and none of the negatives. A few months of being a handmaid would put them straight.

[jmnf19]

I get a chuckle out of the Canadianisms they throw in. When Lawrence asked Serena “Is there anything else we can chat about? Poutine?” I felt such a moment of Canadian pride. 😀

[jmnf19]

1 hour ago, goldilocks said:

😆I was laughing at that scene because of this post last week:

———-

QUOTE:

STEPH369 SAID:

And does every episode have to end with her sour face? Whenever there is less than half a minute left, you know the camera is going to start zooming in on her. The camera person must be rolling his eyes each week. 

———

When the camera started zooming in with less than a minute left, I immediately thought of this post, and got a major set of the giggles. Steph nailed it. 😆

It’s like the final Psycho scene, but Hitch knew when to stop. 

[steph369]

Just now, jmnf19 said:

It’s like the final Psycho scene, but Hitch knew when to stop. 

At least they haven’t had Moss narrating!

[jmnf19]

6 minutes ago, steph369 said:

At least they haven’t had Moss narrating!

They’re saving it for the final scene of the series. 

“I had to kill Serena to save the world. But I’m not violent. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching. They'll say ‘why she wouldn't even hurt a fly.’”

[steph369]

Just now, jmnf19 said:

They’re saving it for the final scene of the series. 

“I had to kill Serena to save the world. But I’m not violent. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching. They'll say ‘why she wouldn't even hurt a fly.’”

I wanted to give you both a laugh and a clapping smiley. 😄 I don’t know why they focus on the face expressions. They’ve done it with others too, though mostly with June. I actually liked the ptsd parts in this episode, they were interesting. I wish they’d focus more on scenes like that. 

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, steph369 said:

I actually liked the ptsd parts in this episode, they were interesting. I wish they’d focus more on scenes like that. 

I was glad to see June with a therapist.  I wasn't entirely sure why Luke was there.  I would agree that June needs to learn to better control her anger, but I thought she remained much more controlled than I would have been during that playground incident.  The woman who approached her was being very aggressive and scary.  I know the best choice would be to have taken Nicole and walked away, but I thought June's reaction was not inappropriate. 

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, crashdown said:

Yes, all three days, as they've said throughout the series. Here's June's testimony, for one example, from 4.08 (the italics are mine):

Thank you.  I stand corrected. 

Does anyone know if the book got into this detail?  I was sure they only did the ceremony once per month/cycle.  Maybe I got that from the book? 

Either way, when it comes to making babies, having sex 3 times with an infertile man is as worthless as having sex once with an infertile man.  😁

[Redrum]

36 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Does anyone know if the book got into this detail?  I was sure they only did the ceremony once per month/cycle.  Maybe I got that from the book? 

I think the book was the once a month thing. Don't feel bad - I still can't figure out where it was said that married men in Gilead can NOT have sex with their wives if they have a handmaid. I know it was apparently said in an episode but its a mystery. And I can't believe a severe rape culture like this seriously has a rule like this. As Lawrence pointed out, the whole point of the handmaid was for men to get their rocks off. Can't believe they aren't banging the wives. 

[aghst]

9 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I thought it was more the toxic waste that Gilead solved and that’s what made them unique.  It’s ridiculous that countries wouldn’t have enough young women who wanted families and would cooperate with a non abusive program.   

It's not about the babies.

That's what the  Commanders use to gaslight the women in Gilead.

[Baltimore Betty]

I'm not so sure Serena wants a full blown Gilead in Canada, without the men folk she can run things as she sees fit, she is able to read without being punished, have meetings with whomever she wants, organize events, etc...align herself as a centerpiece of what Gilead has made her or visa versa, as a single woman in Gilead she might be matched with an abusive husband, who knows he might even rape her!  Serena can be a star in Canada among her devotees and that is what she wants.

[TV Anonymous]

In the first two seasons I think, it was emphasized rather firmly that women in Gilead may not read. And now Serena headed an office with plenty of paper works? How did that happen?

[Baltimore Betty]

7 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

In the first two seasons I think, it was emphasized rather firmly that women in Gilead may not read. And now Serena headed an office with plenty of paper works? How did that happen?

Beause she is Serena Fucking Waterford!!!

Also, I see an All About Eve premise on the rise with Serena and her biggest fan/hostess.

[circumvent]

14 hours ago, Redrum said:

1. There has to be SOME fertility testing because Marthas are infertile women. We have Wives, Aunts, Econowives, Marthas, and Handmaids. Handmaids are fertile sinners paying for their crimes by having babies. Marthas are infertile - yes some are older like Rita but some are pretty young.

In the book the handmaids are white women who are at age of conception and the others also have their specifications. Serena in the book is much older and infertile, or beyond reproductive age. But the writers of the show don't know if they want to follow the book or not, so they mix and match. The result is this mess.

Ms. Moss is not good at sex scenes. At all. 

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

In the first two seasons I think, it was emphasized rather firmly that women in Gilead may not read. And now Serena headed an office with plenty of paper works? How did that happen?

Not only that, Serena missed a finger for that.

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

In the first two seasons I think, it was emphasized rather firmly that women in Gilead may not read. And now Serena headed an office with plenty of paper works? How did that happen?

The office is in Canada, not Gilead. It may be conforming to Canada's perception of Gilead which is not necessarily the whole truth.

I think there were some commanders who were more about women not reading than others. For example, I don't believe that Lawrence is necessarily against women reading. I've also noticed that the climate in Gilead seems different since Waterford's passing. Although Putnam and MacKenzie are more chauvinistic, Lawrence and Nick are also commanders but do not give off that same vibe. Lawrence always struck me as someone who agreed with aspects of Gilead but not everything. 

And, keep in mind that it was made known in either the first or second season that Aunts are allowed to read so that they can review the profiles of prospective handmaids.

In addition to my comments about the climate in Gilead feeling different, so has the climate in Canada. It has been feeling more Gilead-like and not just that one building. You've got not only the Serena-worshippers, but there are the Wheelers as well as that woman who was interacting with June at the playground.

It's interesting that Serena was hanging on to the identity of "Offred" for June when technically, June was "Ofjoseph" after she was "Offred."

[Redrum]

Still, its a fair bitch point that Serena as a representative of the Gilead way of life should not be reading paperwork and signing things and all around displaying literacy when she is representing all Gilead women. She should be happy the burden of reading and making decisions for herself is gone. 

[ctmd]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:18 PM, tennisgurl said:

They clearly know nothing about what the actual place is like, even beyond its constant horrific human rights violations its just a crappy boring place where everyone is miserable, but I guess they're going to find out soon if Gilead wants to start opening its doors. I assume they are going to be showing a nice, happy, very fake Gilead and not the actual one with women being ritualistically raped and bodies rotting on every wall. I am pretty sure these Gilead Girls would be in for a rude awakening if they actually tried to go there.

This reminds me a lot of how my father described Cuba, where he is from. Tourists to Cuba were only allowed to go to certain places, where things looked great and people seemed healthy. Actual Cuban citizens (that were not part of the dictatorship itself) lived in squalor, received rancid food rations, were not allowed to go to tourist areas, they were not allowed to eat beef because that was for tourists, and even had to bring their own bedding and sometimes even their own food to the hospitals. Gilead would likely do the same- tourists see the Commanders mansions, and the kids at their school playgrounds, and get a trip to the theatre, while the handmaids are raped and hung on walls, and others get sent to the Colonies...

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I'm not so sure Serena wants a full blown Gilead in Canada, without the men folk she can run things as she sees fit, she is able to read without being punished, have meetings with whomever she wants, organize events, etc...align herself as a centerpiece of what Gilead has made her or visa versa, as a single woman in Gilead she might be matched with an abusive husband, who knows he might even rape her!  Serena can be a star in Canada among her devotees and that is what she wants.

I was just thinking exactly this. She’s lucky she’s single now and can run things her way.

[aghst]

Gilead doesn't allow women to read?

Serena and Lydia and other women were all literate before Gilead.

Maybe they don't teach newborns or those girls who hadn't entered school when Gilead became a thing?

Or are you suggesting that even women know how to read are no longer permitted to read?

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, aghst said:

Gilead doesn't allow women to read?

Serena and Lydia and other women were all literate before Gilead.

Maybe they don't teach newborns or those girls who hadn't entered school when Gilead became a thing?

Or are you suggesting that even women know how to read are no longer permitted to read?

They aren’t permitted to read. That’s why Serena got her finger chopped off.

[aghst]

Hmm, I don't recall the circumstances around Serena losing her finger.

Many of these women were educated so incredible that they accede to this BS.

In reality, there would be all kinds of demonstrators outside the Gilead cultural center about what happens to Handmaids and women in general in Gilead.

[ctmd]

19 minutes ago, aghst said:

Gilead doesn't allow women to read?

Serena and Lydia and other women were all literate before Gilead.

it's explicitly stated in the book, and I believe in season 1 also. It's why the supermarkets have symbols instead of words on all the food, and why allowing June to read a magazine and to play scrabble was so exhilarating to her in the moment. I don't remember the details, but recall TV show Fred also shot Serena down at least once about offering to help him write something or to look something up online, and Serena was very upset that she went from writing a book that helped create Gilead to not being allowed to read/write in Gilead- she seemed to have expected to be an exception to the rules rather than subjugated like all the other women. 

[Redrum]

15 minutes ago, aghst said:

Hmm, I don't recall the circumstances around Serena losing her finger.

She read the bible out loud at a council meeting of the men in a bid to convince them that women and their daughters should be allowed to read.

It didn't go over well.

[greekmom]

6 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I'm not so sure Serena wants a full blown Gilead in Canada, without the men folk she can run things as she sees fit, she is able to read without being punished, have meetings with whomever she wants, organize events, etc...align herself as a centerpiece of what Gilead has made her or visa versa, as a single woman in Gilead she might be matched with an abusive husband, who knows he might even rape her!  Serena can be a star in Canada among her devotees and that is what she wants.

I'm not sure. Tuello offered a last ditch effort for her to renounce Gilead and come back as a citizen of the United States with refugee status in Canada. She refused saying she's a something something of God.  Serena chose to stay in Gilead, it was Gilead who didn't want her and only gave her the "position" of the Culture Centre as a way to keep her under their control but not in Gilead.   If Serena wanted to be in Canada with a following she would have been more prudent to claim refugee status and then do her writings and preaching with her little cult under the freedoms of religions. Then she would be alot more free than she is now.

3 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

It's interesting that Serena was hanging on to the identity of "Offred" for June when technically, June was "Ofjoseph" after she was "Offred."

I think that Serena is acknowledging that June was never truly "Ofjoseph" as they all know she was only there for protection from the monthly rapes and was only subjected to them by Lawrence under duress due to Waterford. 

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

Still, its a fair bitch point that Serena as a representative of the Gilead way of life should not be reading paperwork and signing things and all around displaying literacy when she is representing all Gilead women. She should be happy the burden of reading and making decisions for herself is gone. 

I never really understood why Serena was so gungho when Waterford and co. told her what was going to happen to the women (no reading, writing, etc).  My only guess was at that point Serena was so desperate for baby that she was going to say yes to anything to obtain one.  I loved it when back in Season 2, the Waterfords visited Canada and Serena was all excited she was going to be able to read (even the itinerary) and the Canadians were fucking with her by providing an itinerary so not to offend Gilead customs with pictures on it. LOL.

Going back to the conversation about Gilead being successful in live births over any other country in the world - i still call b.s. on that one.  The only thing I can equate it to in real life history is that of the 1 child policy in China.  That certainly didn't work for the Chinese even though the propaganda claimed it did. 

[MichaelaRae]

Quote

she didn’t suffer something multiple rapes and ALSO have a child ripped out of her arms (twice

No, she was a lesbian forced to be a whore with multiple men nightly under threat of physical punishment and death.

Just to be clear I was saying that Moira hadn’t suffered multiple rapes AND had her children ripped out of her arms. Obviously she has been raped, certainly more times than June. But Moira’s experience wasn’t June’s experience was my point. She doesn’t get to decide if June’s way of dealing with it is the best way and she doesn’t get to decide revenge is bad. Sometimes revenge HEALS. #askmehowIknow (but #notreallyitsnotafunstory)

Edited September 29, 2022 by MichaelaRae

[Anela]

Serena calling her Offred, is just another slap in the face. June is a person, not a possession of her dead husband. She continues to dehumanize her.

[revbfc]

I can’t believe the lessons the producers took away from the last couple of seasons is to amp up the tension with fewer payoffs.

Come on, show, do something!

[FierceCritter]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:05 AM, NeenerNeener said:

So is the infertility problem world-wide? And how is that a bad thing?

Because babies are really, really important to some people.

Present company excluded. But I understand why for some people, families are be-all end-all.

[FierceCritter]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:18 PM, tennisgurl said:

This season is boring and I am tired of looking so closely at June's pores. 

Sometimes I lament the vast improvement in home TV screen resolution.

I never thought there'd be a day I would find my enjoyment of TV shows hampered by the distraction of blackheads at 65" 4K.

[FierceCritter]

On 9/28/2022 at 8:36 PM, greekmom said:

Most of the time couples who are childfree are childfree for two main reasons: cost of having and raising a child and overpopulation of the world in it's current state. 

3) They choose not to have children because they don't want children.

There are more of us than you might think.

[Redrum]

44 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

On 9/28/2022 at 4:05 AM, NeenerNeener said:

So is the infertility problem world-wide? And how is that a bad thing?

Because babies are really, really important to some people.

Because population growth has to be sustained in order for a lot of societal fringe benefits. Say you have a village of 100 people - fifty couples. Every person in the village has a necessary job - be it electrician, teacher, grocer, farmer. Also assume there's a LITTLE play in the job roles so that there's fifteen people who are repeating jobs or are in "downtime" roles like parent.  In order to maintain the society, each couple has to have two children. In a society with normal fertility, you can get away with one couple having one child and another having three, or even a couple who chooses not to have children at all while another couple wants that big family. But in a society where out of the fifty couples, only twenty five can even have a baby, the population can't be sustained and necessary positions go unfilled. You can't train a new plumber or doctor or farmer if you simply don't have enough people to fill the jobs. As depicted, the world Gilead exists in is having a massive population drop in all nations. In the short term, Canada is better off than most other nations because they're getting a population boost from refugees but thats not sustainable. Even Gilead's system isn't sustainable - across the board there should be some massive societal upheavals all around. 

Its a much bigger issue than people just wanting babies. A lot of our societal perks like universities, hospitals, easy access to food, scientific research etc depend on having a certain base population working in lower level positions. Italy and Japan (at last check) are both nations facing a depopulation issue as they aren't replacing the aging citizenry with new younger citizens. 

eta - There are some perks to a lower population as well, I don't deny it. Its just not as simple as people really wanting babies. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Redrum

[greekmom]

35 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

3) They choose not to have children because they don't want children.

There are more of us than you might think.

I was trying to find a breakdown online but it doesn't exist. But yes, there are also people who just don't want kids. I don't blame them. Some days I wonder why I had mine. LOL🤣

[Cinnabon]

49 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

3) They choose not to have children because they don't want children.

There are more of us than you might think.

Thank you!

27 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Because population growth has to be sustained in order for a lot of societal fringe benefits. Say you have a village of 100 people - fifty couples. Every person in the village has a necessary job - be it electrician, teacher, grocer, farmer. Also assume there's a LITTLE play in the job roles so that there's fifteen people who are repeating jobs or are in "downtime" roles like parent.  In order to maintain the society, each couple has to have two children. In a society with normal fertility, you can get away with one couple having one child and another having three, or even a couple who chooses not to have children at all while another couple wants that big family. But in a society where out of the fifty couples, only twenty five can even have a baby, the population can't be sustained and necessary positions go unfilled. You can't train a new plumber or doctor or farmer if you simply don't have enough people to fill the jobs. As depicted, the world Gilead exists in is having a massive population drop in all nations. In the short term, Canada is better off than most other nations because they're getting a population boost from refugees but thats not sustainable. Even Gilead's system isn't sustainable - across the board there should be some massive societal upheavals all around. 

Its a much bigger issue than people just wanting babies. A lot of our societal perks like universities, hospitals, easy access to food, scientific research etc depend on having a certain base population working in lower level positions. Italy and Japan (at last check) are both nations facing a depopulation issue as they aren't replacing the aging citizenry with new younger citizens. 

eta - There are some perks to a lower population as well, I don't deny it. Its just not as simple as people really wanting babies. 

This country’s wealth is concentrated heavily at the very top. The ultra wealthy have enough to fund everything (of course they don’t want to). 

[Redrum]

9 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

This country’s wealth is concentrated heavily at the very top. The ultra wealthy have enough to fund everything (of course they don’t want to). 

You can't pay for or buy services that don't have people existing to provide them. I absolutely agree wealthy people in a depopulation situation would initially be far better off... but you can't run the farms by automation alone. Likewise the factories. In a world where live births are so incredibly rare, you're going to rapidly reach a point where you simply won't have enough eighteen year old boys to hold rifles while they merrily oppress women.

*Please understand, not advocating for over breeding, I'm childfree by choice. I just know there are significant ramifications to a world wide fertility issue that this show isn't addressing and should if they want to take it seriously.

[iMonrey]

Quote

This season is boring and I am tired of looking so closely at June's pores. 

I get that the show has made a "thing" out of these incessant closeups of June staring into the camera. I swear, Saturday Night Live could do a parody of this show and it could just be June staring into the camera for five minutes. It's like a meme. It's clearly deliberate. But the thing is, with Elizabeth Moss as not only the star but also as an executive producer and a director of a lot of episodes, it makes it feel very vain on her part. Like, the optics aren't great for Moss on this IMO. 

[Baltimore Betty]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I get that the show has made a "thing" out of these incessant closeups of June staring into the camera. I swear, Saturday Night Live could do a parody of this show and it could just be June staring into the camera for five minutes. It's like a meme. It's clearly deliberate. But the thing is, with Elizabeth Moss as not only the star but also as an executive producer and a director of a lot of episodes, it makes it feel very vain on her part. Like, the optics aren't great for Moss on this IMO. 

SNL killed it for their parody for "Murder Durder,"  SNL did a skit about HMT, it was funny but now mocking the close ups for June has become character of it's own.

[steph369]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:18 PM, tennisgurl said:

This season is boring and I am tired of looking so closely at June's pores. 

It’s too bad that Esther is in a coma, she was interesting. But I guess McKenna Grace was busy filming another series, A Friend of the Family, which comes out on Thursday and looks good. But they  haven’t killed Esther off so maybe she’ll wake up yet and we’ll see more of her before the show ends. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by steph369
doubled a word

[FierceCritter]

6 hours ago, Redrum said:

Because population growth has to be sustained in order for a lot of societal fringe benefits. Its just not as simple as people really wanting babies. 

I was offering one reason that infertility would be considered a bad thing to some. Never said it was the ONLY only reason.

[Anela]

They just really lost me with forced birth/sex slavery being the only thing keeping the population going. If that's what it takes, then extinction should be the way. 

[greekmom]

2 minutes ago, Anela said:

They just really lost me with forced birth/sex slavery being the only thing keeping the population going. If that's what it takes, then extinction should be the way. 

It's just another excuse for as Lawrence said: "for those pious men to get their kink on."

[Redrum]

20 minutes ago, greekmom said:

It's just another excuse for as Lawrence said: "for those pious men to get their kink on."

Well sure. As previously discussed there are ways to encourage fertility that aren't forced rapes and slavery. What really shines out as a flaw is that there doesn't appear to be any men in the Gilead power structure who genuinely believe the religious stuff yet they are towing that line. Putnam did get his hand cut off for getting Janine to do oral on him.

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

Well sure. As previously discussed there are ways to encourage fertility that aren't forced rapes and slavery. What really shines out as a flaw is that there doesn't appear to be any men in the Gilead power structure who genuinely believe the religious stuff yet they are towing that line. Putnam did get his hand cut off for getting Janine to do oral on him.

I honestly wonder about the characters in Gilead we have seen and actually believe the religious stuff. Serena is the biggest one I wonder about. Putman i don't think he does. Mrs. Putman, i think she does.

[lucindabelle]

It’s a pretty sad kink isn’t it, to have sex with these women while your wife is in the room, just vanilla sex. Seems not worth it.