S05.E04: Dear Offred

[Whimsy]

Quote

June fights her need for violent revenge as Serena settles into her new role in Toronto. Rattled by Janine, Aunt Lydia makes a surprising suggestion to Lawrence.

Original airdate 9/28/22

[Quilt Fairy]

So, in this episode we learn:

1. June realizes (finally) that she's nuts and also that she needs help
2. Gilead men in Canada apparently have no trouble taking orders from a woman
3. Janine has zero fucks left to give

[Armchair Critic]

Do you think Aunt Lydia can actually change? And if she does will it be her downfall? 

I never cared that much for June's husband but I do give him credit for his patience.

Wait a minute... is that couple in the house Serena was brought to, are they going to take Serena's baby? Oh my that would be something.

[kitkat343]

17 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Do you think Aunt Lydia can actually change? And if she does will it be her downfall? 

I never cared that much for June's husband but I do give him credit for his patience.

Wait a minute... is that couple in the house Serena was brought to, are they going to take Serena's baby? Oh my that would be something.

It absolutely would be something, and I think that's what would happen to Serena if she doesn't establish herself as a valuable unofficial ambassador for Gilead.  The tragic, heroic infertile widow miraculously becoming a beautiful mother could potentially be quite valuable as an ambassador for Gilead, and if Serena is smart she will fight like hell to make that happen (or she will run away and accept asylum in Canada or America or anywhere else she can be safer).  If Serena turns on Gilead and fights it publicly, maybe June will chose her family over revenge.  But if Serena cannot establish herself as an asset to Gilead, then I'm sure they will be happy to snatch her child away and turn her into a handmaid.  I'd almost feel sorry for her given the fact that she was shot before the revolution and now there is no path to safety for her, but given the fact that she was shot for preaching about taking away women's rights and participated in forming a horrible society that took away all of their rights my sympathy is quite limited.

[NeenerNeener]

So is the infertility problem world-wide? And how is that a bad thing? And why haven't the people in Serena's fan club in Toronto moved to Gilead if they think that's the answer to life, the universe and everything?

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

So is the infertility problem world-wide? And how is that a bad thing? And why haven't the people in Serena's fan club in Toronto moved to Gilead if they think that's the answer to life, the universe and everything?

That is a very good question, does Gilead have an intake center for devotees who want to live there? It would be like joining the armed forces where you are told what your role will be, I feel like those candle holding fans of Serena really don't understand what it is like in Gilead, what is it that they do not understand, surely they have heard the Martha's, Handmaids, etc...recounting their time in Gilead, what part of anything that the survivors said sounds like a fun summer camp that the fans of Serena want so badly to be a part of?

Another good question is why did this box show up twice and how do I get rid of it?

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

So is the infertility problem world-wide? And how is that a bad thing? And why haven't the people in Serena's fan club in Toronto moved to Gilead if they think that's the answer to life, the universe and everything?

[txhorns79]

42 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I feel like those candle holding fans of Serena really don't understand what it is like in Gilead, what is it that they do not understand, surely they have heard the Martha's, Handmaids, etc...recounting their time in Gilead, what part of anything that the survivors said sounds like a fun summer camp that the fans of Serena want so badly to be a part of?

I'm curious if they know that Serena had a finger cut off by Gilead for reading.  The devotion to her and/or Gilead makes no sense to me, and the show hasn't done a great job of explaining why people would be acting like that. 

[Baltimore Betty]

Just now, txhorns79 said:

I'm curious if they know that Serena had a finger cut off by Gilead for reading.  The devotion to her and/or Gilead makes no sense to me, and the show hasn't done a great job of explaining why people would be acting like that. 

Yes, we need a few back stories of the women who are fans of Serena, we are owed a nice rounded out story.

[NeenerNeener]

I wonder if this episode will be the turning point for Lydia. Lawrence admitted that the "handmaid" system isn't about the babies; it's about the kink for the Commanders. Babies for their wives is just an occasional by-product. 

[dmc]

Serena is the worst but the final scene of Mrs. Wheeler petting her stomach like a dog while spouting nonsense is what she deserves

Lawrence and Serena might be the new dynamic duo. 

Nice Gilead invitations, but Paul Allen thinks you need a watermark.

Who is finally ready to admit Tuello doesn’t have a plan?  It makes sense but Gilead’s downfall will be the result of all women and no men.  

I like Luke.  I like June.  I do not like them together.  All the sex scenes in the world won’t convince me.

[Redrum]

This episode was slow. 

Tuello is basically useless. 

I really don't think Canada would allow a sort of Gilead ambassador complete with the property being considered Gilead territory. 

I don't believe Canada/the US would not have June Osborne being watched.

I don't believe Fred's funeral was so awe inspiring that nations are now willing to reopen political diplomacy with Gilead. 

If Serena is genuinely afraid of June, why is she sending invites to "Offred" to the new Gilead Cultural center gala?

If the Gilead Cultural Center is really Gilead territory, why wasn't Luke arrested and deported?

I did like June's ptsd. Also the scenes of her and Luke becoming more couple like.

I liked Janine's sassing of Aunt Lydia.

If there have been no live births of children in the world outside of those in Gilead then you'll forgive me but the planet in this universe has MUCH BIGGER problems than Gilead being oppressive.

The secret mansion in the woods of Canada that Serena ends up in just screams shit will get crazy pants soon for Serena. 

[NeenerNeener]

23 minutes ago, Redrum said:

If there have been no live births of children in the world outside of those in Gilead then you'll forgive me but the planet in this universe has MUCH BIGGER problems than Gilead being oppressive.

Yes, that sounds like in vitro fertilization and surrogacy aren't working in the modern world for women who can't conceive. 

[Redrum]

5 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

Yes, that sounds like in vitro fertilization and surrogacy aren't working in the modern world for women who can't conceive. 

Which frankly, and as a woman I hate saying this, dramatically alters a fertile woman's choices. If only 50% of all women have a baby then the world is looking at devastating depopulation. The implications in the Gilead universe is that the fertility issue is far worse. If no one has had a live birth in years, you can bet there would be some massive repercussions, including forced breeding (if perhaps done more humanely) done simply to save the species. Think Children of Men scenarios.

Seriously, I can see it being done "nicer" but I find it hard to believe other countries haven't implemented enforced fertile women insemination rules. (it can be done without whippings and eye gouging - its still brutal but this is being portrayed as an extinction level issue. )

[crashdown]

17 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Seriously, I can see it being done "nicer" but I find it hard to believe other countries haven't implemented enforced fertile women insemination rules. (it can be done without whippings and eye gouging - its still brutal but this is being portrayed as an extinction level issue. )

I think that was always Serena's point, that we're talking about the extinction of the human race. That was going to be the main thrust of her next book, the one that never got written: fertility as a moral imperative. The only reason other countries are interested in Gilead at all is the fact that apparently Gilead is the only country in the world where the birth rate is growing instead of declining.

[Brn2bwild]

Has that ever been confirmed in the outside world, though?  Maybe that's the propaganda Serena has always had to swallow, but that doesn't mean it is in fact the situation across the globe.

[Redrum]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

Has that ever been confirmed in the outside world, though?  Maybe that's the propaganda Serena has always had to swallow, but that doesn't mean it is in fact the situation across the globe.

Tuello confirmed it a few seasons back that they were "working on the fertility issue". Also the Mexican delegate in season one said there hadn't been a live birth in her home town in years and were looking to implement a handmaid program in Mexico.

[dmc]

57 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I think that was always Serena's point, that we're talking about the extinction of the human race. That was going to be the main thrust of her next book, the one that never got written: fertility as a moral imperative. The only reason other countries are interested in Gilead at all is the fact that apparently Gilead is the only country in the world where the birth rate is growing instead of declining.

Serena is actually pregnant now and I haven't seen one thing she's done all season for her baby.  

Serena is not concerned with the human race continuing, she using the concern of the human race continuing for power.  There are people who use others fears for their own gain and she's one of them.

Edited September 28, 2022 by dmc

[crashdown]

9 minutes ago, dmc said:

Serena is not concerned with the human race continuing, she using the concern of the human race continuing for power.  There are people who use others fears for their own gain and she's one of them.

Maybe. Maybe not. Serena is complicated. I don't think we've seen enough of her pre-Gilead life to say with confidence what drives her.

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Maybe. Maybe not. Serena is complicated. I don't think we've seen enough of her pre-Gilead life to say with confidence what drives her.

I have seen plenty, it never ceases to amaze me that people cannot see Serena for who she is.  A key is a looking at a person's actions not their words.  Anyone can say anything, it doesn't make it true

Edited September 28, 2022 by dmc

[tennisgurl]

If that couple takes Serena's baby, that would certainly be just desserts, but hopefully the poor kid can eventually find some normal parents. The more bad things happen to Serena the better. Do you think Serena will ever mention that one of her fingers was hacked off by her beloved Gilead? Or that she sent Nicole away herself?

I really do not get all of these Gilead worshippers, I guess all they know about it is that its super religious and they are all about kids (supposedly) but I wish they would explain more about why these people seem to think Gilead is so awesome. They clearly know nothing about what the actual place is like, even beyond its constant horrific human rights violations its just a crappy boring place where everyone is miserable, but I guess they're going to find out soon if Gilead wants to start opening its doors. I assume they are going to be showing a nice, happy, very fake Gilead and not the actual one with women being ritualistically raped and bodies rotting on every wall. I am pretty sure these Gilead Girls would be in for a rude awakening if they actually tried to go there.

Aunt Lydia really is delusional if she believes that the Handmaids is all about just making babies, its always been about control and abuse since day one. 

This season is boring and I am tired of looking so closely at June's pores. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by tennisgurl

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Aunt Lydia really is delusional if she believes that the Handmaids is all about just making babies, its always been about control and abuse since day one. 

I wish  I could like this a 1000 times.  Not about babies or the world continuing...its about power

[Anela]

Oh, god. I don't want to think about forced birth becoming a thing, all over the world. I haven't watched yet, but they're inferring that Gilead is succeeding, thanks to their rapes and forced birth?? 

I remember another country having their people visit. June and others were hoping they would help, but they were thinking of implementing gilead rules into their own country. no, no, no. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

Oh, god. I don't want to think about forced birth becoming a thing, all over the world. I haven't watched yet, but they're inferring that Gilead is succeeding, thanks to their rapes and forced birth?? 

It shouldn't have to come to that. Most developed nations would address the problem with IVF and incentives. Fertile women and men would get paid for their eggs and sperm, and the most viable of the resulting embryos given to couples who can't conceive naturally but are able to carry a pregnancy to term. And if only a few women are able to do that, they would be paid handsomely to be gestational surrogates (I'm sure that women like Janine, who had a low-income job before Gilead, would jump at the opportunity). This practice would result in a lot of the babies being genetic siblings, so meticulous records would have to be kept in order to avoid accidental incest in the future, but that wouldn't be insurmountable.

[Redrum]

Exactly. It doesn't have to be forced rape where only penis into vagina stuff is allowed.

Mind you, in a genuinely desperate situation there are going to be some fertile women who don't want children ever or feel violated by egg donation etc etc.... but the Gilead model of beatings and repression isn't the only way.

[Helena Dax]

Janine, you'll tell me if one of the enslaved girls we're forcing to be raped three times a month by a repulsive commander is struggling. I mean, wtf? Is Aunt Lydia on drugs?

Not the best episode, frankly. June's part felt a bit repetitive, Serena isn't as entertaining when she and Fred can't make each other gloriously miserable, and Aunt Lydia has lost her mind if she thinks that there's a way to make the Handmaids system work without violence and suffering. Loved Janine, though.

[Quilt Fairy]

Is the woman who met Serena at the refuge house the same woman that approached June in the park? 

[Redrum]

21 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is the woman who met Serena at the refuge house the same woman that approached June in the park? 

Possibly. I wondered that too.

[crashdown]

59 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is the woman who met Serena at the refuge house the same woman that approached June in the park? 

No, different people, different actors. The woman who approached June is much younger than Mrs. Wheeler.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I really do not get all of these Gilead worshippers, I guess all they know about it is that its super religious and they are all about kids (supposedly) but I wish they would explain more about why these people seem to think Gilead is so awesome. They clearly know nothing about what the actual place is like, even beyond its constant horrific human rights violations its just a crappy boring place where everyone is miserable, but I guess they're going to find out soon if Gilead wants to start opening its doors.

But by now there have been enough refugees from Gilead to spread their stories and the horrors of Gilead would by widely known. I think the point is that these Giliad fans know about all of that but don't care. They just believe that's the way it should be. And while it's easy enough to believe men would like that sort of arrangement, it's sadly also realistic to believe a contingency of women would too. I don't think I need to draw any obvious parallels to modern religions or politics to make that point either.

[lucindabelle]

Have we seen mrs wheeler before?

[greekmom]

58 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But by now there have been enough refugees from Gilead to spread their stories and the horrors of Gilead would by widely known. I think the point is that these Giliad fans know about all of that but don't care. They just believe that's the way it should be. And while it's easy enough to believe men would like that sort of arrangement, it's sadly also realistic to believe a contingency of women would too. I don't think I need to draw any obvious parallels to modern religions or politics to make that point either.

I would say it was like before WW2 when the rumors of what was going on in Germany was flooding the rest of the world and either people didn't a) believe it or b) didn't care. 

I have to say the whole Gilead system even though it is well written is confusing in regards to how people see it from the outside. A) How come all these people think that they would automatically be part of the alpha class of Commanders and wives!?! Just because they "follow the good book?"  I'm pretty sure there is a shit load of Econopeople who believe in the Gilead system but are being used by the upper class. B) How do they know that their wives, sisters, mothers, etc won't be made in to a Handmaid or shipped off to the colonies?  To be in the IN club you have to have never been married prior to the current marriage, not LGBTQ+, had a child out of wedlock and be a certain type of Christian faith and married in the faith. Honestly, that is a very slim window. 

Which takes me to the point of the woman who approached June at the park and the supporters outside. If they are such Gilead loving folk, move there. And she even said she had 2 boys.  I assume they are healthy but she wanted a girl.  With such low birth rates, shouldn't she be happy she had 2 healthy boys!?!?  She was obviously off her rocker.

I need more backstory on these cult people.  It cannot just be because of the low birth rate.  I tried to google, but I couldn't find the percentage of women who currently choose to be childfree. If governments gave incentives for women to have children such as tax breaks, money, etc. I am sure in a society where birth rates are low in the world of Handmaid's Tale, it would assist with more women having kids.  Most of the time couples who are childfree are childfree for two main reasons: cost of having and raising a child and overpopulation of the world in it's current state. 

Which takes me to Serena.  She got a finger chopped off for reading the bible, but the Commanders in charge are ok now with her running a "culture centre" which she would have to read and write?  If we remember Serena from S1 and 2 , she wasn't happy and thought a baby would fulfill her - it didn't. She couldn't write, she couldn't read, she couldn't preach her thoughts.  Lastly about Serena meeting Mrs. Wheeler (already forgot her name). You can SEE the fear in Serena's eyes of this woman and her stealing Serena's child.  I swear at the closeup of Yvonne, Serena shuddered with fear. 

I can't honestly believe that Lydia is that stupid that she doesn't realize that the Commanders have an ulterior motive in having a Handmaid in the house. Seriously Lydia, you were more cunning in season 1.  But I did like how Lawrence spelled it out for her. 

23 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Have we seen mrs wheeler before?

No. She's new to this season.

Edited September 29, 2022 by greekmom

[chaifan]

Ugh.  So many issues with this episode, with this show altogether...

They had a perfect opportunity to explain Serena's freedom.  They could have done a very short "processing" scene with Serena in which the details of her release were explained, why she is isn't being charged with war crimes. 

Tuello turned out to be useless.  Maybe, maybe, he'll do something down the line, but I doubt it.  This was an interesting character in the beginning, and he has just been wasted.

Why aren't the ex-Handmaids and anti-Gilead people protesting outside the Gilead center with giant signs saying "Handmaids are raped", "Serena's a rapist", "Serena kidnaps children", etc.  Geez, at least troll Serena with signs showing 2 hands with 10 fingers, with the caption "Read This, Bitch".  No, instead, they just stand in a crowd so no one can tell who is on what side. 

Aunt Lydia's conversion... sigh.  Oh, I know, let's let the handmaids all live together in one big, giant life long slumber party that they're never allowed to leave.  That will make getting ripped from you family and raped once a month so much better! 

The idea that Gilead has a higher birthrate than anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.  The math just doesn't add up.  a) Gilead has severely limited the number of women who are allowed to have sex.  Only handmaids, Wives without handmaids, and Econowives can legally have sex.  b) Econowives have a disincentive to get pregnant, for fear that they may then be forced to become a handmaid (for whatever violation of Gilead laws someone wants to invent), so even if they're having sex they're probably actively trying to not get pregnant.  c) Handmaids aren't tested for fertility, so years can be wasted trying to get a Handmaid pregnant before she's finally shipped off to the Colonies  d) Wives aren't tested for fertility, so years can be wasted before they're finally assigned a Handmaid.  e) Commanders are mostly infertile, and not everyone can finagle a Nick or Dr. to get them pregnant.  f) The "ceremony" is conducted only once a month (in theory), so there's a one time shot to get pregnant per cycle.  g) they reject any science/medicine that can help with fertility.  So Gilead has limited potential pregnancy to a minority of the possibly fertile women, yet paired most of these women with likely infertile men, and with the handmaids, have limited this to one chance per month to get pregnant.

A "normal" country, on the other hand, would be doing everything they could to identify fertile men and women, fix fertility problems where possible.  Teenagers and other unmarried people would still be having sex, and pregnancies (whether wanted or unwanted) would still occur.  There would be incentives of all sorts for women to get pregnant, for fertile men to donate sperm.  Science would be used to identify peak fertility times, cycles, etc., to increase chance of conception during a woman's cycle.  Fertility drugs would be used.  Multiple attempts each cycle could/would be made (sex or IVF), increasing the chance of pregnancy each month. 

There is no way the "science" approach would yield poorer results than Gilead's methods.  It's statistically impossible. 

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, Redrum said:

If there have been no live births of children in the world outside of those in Gilead then you'll forgive me but the planet in this universe has MUCH BIGGER problems than Gilead being oppressive.

No one said there were NO births outside of Gilead.  Lawrence just said Gilead had the highest birth rate.  (Which I say is absolutely impossible, see post above.) 

[greekmom]

10 minutes ago, chaifan said:

The idea that Gilead has a higher birthrate than anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.  The math just doesn't add up.  a) Gilead has severely limited the number of women who are allowed to have sex.  Only handmaids, Wives without handmaids, and Econowives can legally have sex.  b) Econowives have a disincentive to get pregnant, for fear that they may then be forced to become a handmaid (for whatever violation of Gilead laws someone wants to invent), so even if they're having sex they're probably actively trying to not get pregnant.  c) Handmaids aren't tested for fertility, so years can be wasted trying to get a Handmaid pregnant before she's finally shipped off to the Colonies  d) Wives aren't tested for fertility, so years can be wasted before they're finally assigned a Handmaid.  e) Commanders are mostly infertile, and not everyone can finagle a Nick or Dr. to get them pregnant.  f) The "ceremony" is conducted only once a month (in theory), so there's a one time shot to get pregnant per cycle.  g) they reject any science/medicine that can help with fertility.  So Gilead has limited potential pregnancy to a minority of the possibly fertile women, yet paired most of these women with likely infertile men, and with the handmaids, have limited this to one chance per month to get pregnant.

I think the ceremony is done once a month over 3 days as they are monitoring the Handmaid's cycle. 

But if i could like your post more than 1x i would.  

[chaifan]

1 minute ago, greekmom said:

I think the ceremony is done once a month over 3 days as they are monitoring the Handmaid's cycle. 

But if i could like your post more than 1x i would.  

Awww...  thanks.  😊

Yes, they're monitoring cycles, but it's still sex only once a month. 

Whereas a fertile woman in another country could have sex countless times in the same 3 days.  And it would be a known fertile woman with a known fertile man (or different men, to increase the odds).  Or inseminated multiple times, or with greater number of sperm.  (I have no idea how IVF works, I'm just guessing here that it could be done multiple times in a cycle if they really wanted to.)

[sashabear21]

In regards to the Gilead fans it can be explained because fanatics are going to fanatic. It doesn't have to make any sort of logical sense and all the Gilead survivor stories aren't going to sway them because in their warped minds it's all "why wouldn't you want to do anything possible to have a baby for God???". 

I hope this Serena storyline goes completely off the rails, like some soap opera level nonsense with Mrs. Wheeler locking Serena in the basement, stealing the baby, and then running around town wearing a Serena mask while screaming "Praise be!!!!" into people's faces while trying to convince them that she's Serena.  

I really liked that Moira pointed out to June that by becoming a vigilante she could ruin things for a lot of the refugees there.  I know she's got PTSD and is justifiably pissed off about the abuse she suffered in Gilead but a lot of people suffered there and becoming a one woman revenge show could jeopardize things for people who are finding stability and trying to rebuild their lives.  Although that being said, I still wish she would have gone all schoolyard bully with that heinous woman in the beginning (I mean they were already on a playground) and ground her smug face all into the dirt! 

If I never have to hear Luke talk about building codes on this show again it will be too soon.  

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Yes, they're monitoring cycles, but it's still sex only once a month. 

Not sex once a month—sex three times a month, every night during ovulation. It maximizes pregnancy potential, not minimizes it. 

[chaifan]

15 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Not sex once a month—sex three times a month, every night during ovulation. It maximizes pregnancy potential, not minimizes it. 

But in THT they only do the "ceremony" once per month.  Not all three days.  

[Redrum]

While I completely agree that it doesn't make any sense that Gilead has a higher birthrate than more civilized countries, I will make some counter arguments since I like playing devil's advocate. 

1. There has to be SOME fertility testing because Marthas are infertile women. We have Wives, Aunts, Econowives, Marthas, and Handmaids. Handmaids are fertile sinners paying for their crimes by having babies. Marthas are infertile - yes some are older like Rita but some are pretty young.

2. We've also seen young girls in pink being brought to the hospital for testing for fertility. 

3. That Gilead doesn't believe in in vitro doesn't mean all medical science is ignored in Gilead. We've seen people with fairly serious injuries being saved with medical care. They actually seem to have pretty extensive prenatal care. 

4. Although its not been discussed since season one, one thing Gilead does is profess a more natural diet and way of living. The food is supposedly organic, they're very careful about sugar, clothes are from natural fiber. If the infertilty is due to environmental factors, this might be helpful.

5. Not to take Gilead's side but... force works. It works in a way that letting people choose what they want to do doesn't. Take one hundred fertile women in a free country and let them know that due to infertility their home country asks that they get pregnant but will not force them in any way - its purely voluntary. You can bet that about 30 to 40 percent will balk no matter incentive is being offered. In Gilead, all one hundred will 'volunteer'. Quantity has a quality all on its own.

Now frankly, in vitro and surrogacy would have its pluses in this situation, but considering its a world wide problem and not just the former US's issue - as the population ages and isn't replaced, a lot of countries are in a "use it or lose it" situation - women are only fertile so long. 

[MichaelaRae]

Moira: “She’s not worth losing your family over.”

What I WISHED June had said to Moira (who lived what, one YEAR in Gilead, compared to June who spent YEARS there, but also she should know this living one DAY in Gilead): “She’s WHY I LOST MY FAMILY.” Moira can take several damn seats.

Edited September 29, 2022 by MichaelaRae

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

But in THT they only do the "ceremony" once per month.  Not all three days.  

Yes, all three days, as they've said throughout the series. Here's June's testimony, for one example, from 4.08 (the italics are mine):

Quote

I came to the Waterford’s house in 2017. It was my second posting. A few days after my arrival I was summoned to the drawing room where I was asked to kneel in front of the Waterfords, as witnessed by their housekeeper Rita Blue and their driver Nick Blaine. Mr. Waterford read a story from the Bible, about Rachel and Bilhah. After that I was taken upstairs to her bedroom. There Mr. Waterford raped me while his wife held me down. This happened for three successive nights every month while I was ovulating. These were the legally sanctioned rapes. There were others. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by crashdown

[crashdown]

21 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

What I WISHED June had said to Moira (who lived what, one YEAR in Gilead, compared to June who spent YEARS there, but also she should know this living one DAY in Gilead): “She’s WHY I LOST MY FAMILY.” Moira can take several damn seats.

The timeline is messy, but Moira was actually in Gilead for several years: she and June were together at the Red Center, then June spent two years at her first posting and found Moira again (who had been at Jezebels the whole time) some months into her second posting at the Waterfords. That all probably adds up to about three years. Not as bad as June's seven, but no picnic!

[Redrum]

19 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Moira: “She’s not worth losing your family over.”

What I WISHED June had said to Moira (who lived what, one YEAR in Gilead, compared to June who spent YEARS there, but also she should know this living one DAY in Gilead): “She’s WHY I LOST MY FAMILY.” Moira can take several damn seats.

I mean, I don't know that suffering more makes June more right and Moira less right. Is Emily the winner since she spent about a year less than June but was forcibly circumcised and also spent time in a penal colony while June didn't? June didn't have her clit cut off so Emily wins the suffering contest? Moira didn't suffer enough so she has no valid opinions?

Moira had a valid point. Sometimes you have to let it go to stay sane and stay alive. Yeah Serena is a monster but if June heads to the Gilead Conversion Center or whatever they are calling it and plugs Serena in the head.... it feels good but then what? June goes to prison and Nicole sees her mom once a month at visiting hours and Hannah never comes home. As it is, June killing Fred has likely been part of Serena's push to bring Hannah to the funeral. Will it be worth it?

[aghst]

7 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Janine, you'll tell me if one of the enslaved girls we're forcing to be raped three times a month by a repulsive commander is struggling. I mean, wtf? Is Aunt Lydia on drugs?

Not the best episode, frankly. June's part felt a bit repetitive, Serena isn't as entertaining when she and Fred can't make each other gloriously miserable, and Aunt Lydia has lost her mind if she thinks that there's a way to make the Handmaids system work without violence and suffering. Loved Janine, though.

Yeah reforming the Handmaiden system is absurd.

Are they going to stop the rapes or the forced births?

Oh is Lydia not going to cut out eyes and clitorises of those who refuse to perform tHe Handmaid duties?

Or not threaten to send them to the Colonies?

The women who are true believers in Gilead are being duped.  Has nothing to do with God or some Sacred purpose, it’s about serving up young nubile women to the Commanders, as one flashback depicted the men high-fiving each other about the Ceremony and how they could get their wives to accept it.

[MichaelaRae]

16 minutes ago, crashdown said:

The timeline is messy, but Moira was actually in Gilead for several years: she and June were together at the Red Center, then June spent two years at her first posting and found Moira again (who had been at Jezebels the whole time) some months into her second posting at the Waterfords. That all probably adds up to about three years. Not as bad as June's seven, but no picnic!

I definitely don’t want to do “what about ism” but at the same time while Moira suffered something horrible, and she definitely DID, she didn’t suffer something multiple rapes and ALSO have a child ripped out of her arms (twice). Or eff that. Her experience was her own and every other handmaid or Jezebel or Martha experienced something different. So when she’s insisting on telling June the appropriate way to feel about Gilead, she didn’t experience what June experienced or Emily experienced or Rita experienced or anyone else. But she seems to have decided she’s the arbiter of how everyone should respond to being victimized by Gilead and I RESENT that.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

5. Not to take Gilead's side but... force works. It works in a way that letting people choose what they want to do doesn't. Take one hundred fertile women in a free country and let them know that due to infertility their home country asks that they get pregnant but will not force them in any way - its purely voluntary. You can bet that about 30 to 40 percent will balk no matter incentive is being offered. In Gilead, all one hundred will 'volunteer'. Quantity has a quality all on its own.

It doesn't work in this case because it's been proven that stress is not conducive to women getting pregnant and giving birth to healthy babies. So any system to increase birth rate would work better with 60-70/100 willing women than 100/100 women who are under extreme duress and fearing for their lives every day.

2 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

I definitely don’t want to do “what about ism” but at the same time while Moira suffered something horrible, and she definitely DID, she didn’t suffer something multiple rapes and ALSO have a child ripped out of her arms (twice).

She did suffer multiple rapes - every night for several years while being forced to work at Jezebels.

Edited September 29, 2022 by chocolatine

[aghst]

41 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Moira: “She’s not worth losing your family over.”

What I WISHED June had said to Moira (who lived what, one YEAR in Gilead, compared to June who spent YEARS there, but also she should know this living one DAY in Gilead): “She’s WHY I LOST MY FAMILY.” Moira can take several damn seats.

That’s what Moira and Luke tell June but they’re enabling her in a way, not being frank with her.

Truth is she needs psychiatric help.  If she’s not suffering from PTSD, it’s violent impulses.

But it seems they’re trying to write it as righteous rage, like a female version of a Liam Neeson revenge movie, killing scores of men which is alright because he’s rescuing his daughter.

The exposition is clumsy too, a montage June and Luke having sex while Serena is being driven to some sanctuary, all to the tune of Fleetwood Mac or some tribute band singing Fleetwood Mac.  
 

What do these scenes have to do with each other?  June and Luke are kissing each other’s bullet wounds — ooh sexy — while Serena is going to some remote mansion?

[jenn31]

Fuck with the goddam June closeups! Can these show runners not end an episode any other way?!

13 hours ago, Redrum said:

This episode was slow. 

Tuello is basically useless. 

I really don't think Canada would allow a sort of Gilead ambassador complete with the property being considered Gilead territory. 

I don't believe Canada/the US would not have June Osborne being watched.

I don't believe Fred's funeral was so awe inspiring that nations are now willing to reopen political diplomacy with Gilead. 

If Serena is genuinely afraid of June, why is she sending invites to "Offred" to the new Gilead Cultural center gala?

If the Gilead Cultural Center is really Gilead territory, why wasn't Luke arrested and deported?

I did like June's ptsd. Also the scenes of her and Luke becoming more couple like.

I liked Janine's sassing of Aunt Lydia.

If there have been no live births of children in the world outside of those in Gilead then you'll forgive me but the planet in this universe has MUCH BIGGER problems than Gilead being oppressive.

The secret mansion in the woods of Canada that Serena ends up in just screams shit will get crazy pants soon for Serena. 

This, completely!  I especially liked June’s ptsd. So preferable to her taking over and being a leader. Didn’t last long though. Minutes later, she was after Serena with a gun. I was begging June to shoot Serena already. Not only because she deserves it, but without Serena there would be no show. And that’s fine by me! 

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

she didn’t suffer something multiple rapes and ALSO have a child ripped out of her arms (twice

No, she was a lesbian forced to be a whore with multiple men nightly under threat of physical punishment and death. I'm going to take a wild guess and say working at Jezabel's was not a three times a month with the same guy proposition so if its "who was raped the MOST TIMES" Moira probably has June, Janine, and Emily combined beaten hands down. Suffering isn't a competition. June is never going to find someone who has identical experiences. If she runs into Janine again - who arguably has spent LONGER and suffered more in Gilead - does June have to shut her mouth and accept Janine's views on anything and everything as holy writ as Janine has suffered more? Of course not. It's the same for Moira. 

8 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

It doesn't work in this case because it's been proven that stress is not conducive to women getting pregnant and giving birth to healthy babies. So any system to increase birth rate would work better with 60-70/100 willing women than 100/100 women who are under extreme duress and fearing for their lives every day.

It's not conducive, I agree, but its certainly not impossible. Sadly it happens all the time. In a society where no one cares if the woman is stressed out, yes she'll be traumatized but she'll also likely be pregnant eventually if she's being forced. The flaw in the nicer country where only 60 to 70 are even willing is that they still have to get pregnant, which causes stress both mentally and physically and taking lots of care to destress the women makes the whole process go even slower....  Gilead's flaw in my opinion is that they are just throwing away way too many handmaids because they're so utterly rotten to the handmaids. Gilead's system isn't sustainable because they literally don't care if they kill handmaids and the supply isn't going to last forever with the depopulation. Women will age out - and they aren't breeding quickly and they pretty much pulverize any resisters to death. Look at Esther. Look at how many fertile handmaids have died since this show began. The real flaw in their system is that they keep killing or letting handmaids suicide. Thats no way to run a breeding enterprise. 

[jenn31]

48 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Yes, all three days, as they've said throughout the series

I don’t think they stressed that in the show, and certainly not throughout the series, but then I don’t rewatch scenes. Easy enough to miss. I was surprised when I watched June relate that in the scene you mention.