S01.E05: We Light the Way

[proserpina65]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:17 AM, ybrik said:

Do find it funny that Otto keeps telling Alicent that Aegon most be ready to rule because Rhaenyra taken the throne would cause the realm to go to war. Shouldn’t he have been working to calm things down so that Rhaenyra taking the throne would be accepted since you know that was the King’s wishes. That would be something Hand should have been trying to assist with. 

A Hand who didn't have a personal stake in the game?  Sure.  Someone who would benefit greatly from his grandson being king?  Yeah, not so much.

[Avabelle]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

The only reason he promoted Rhaenrya as heir in the first place was a machination to oust Daemon from being next in line. He never gave a shit about Rhaenrya, she was merely a placeholder in his mind until a son was produced, hopefully by his daughter. Therefore, his assumption was that Viserys would cast aside Rhaenyra and name any future firstborn son as his new heir... I guess Otto never heard the saying about the 'assume' problem. He not only played himself but created what's to come...dipshit.

Yup agreed. What frustrates me now is that Alicent can’t see him for what he is but is instead choosing to use Rhaenyra lying about the maidenhood as the “final straw”. It just seems like she’s looking for any reason to turn on them anyway so this was convenient. 

[xaxat]

When I saw the individuals around the banquet table, I had a flashback to my orientation at the engineering department that actually took pride in washing people out.

"Look to your right. Look to your left. In four years two of you will be gone."

[proserpina65]

6 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Alicent is apparently unfortunately massively overestimating her sway over Viserys.

Her perception can be very different from reality, just like anyone else's.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Oh my goodness. Did you ever look at her expression when she’s handling her babies?  Torture. She can’t wait to hand them over to the nurse.  Sure, I get it, being a teenager stuck with 2 babies and a geriatric husband isn’t the life she dreamed of, and no, she doesn’t want anything bad to happen to her kids, but declaring war is more about her power than maternal feelings. 

Eh, she doesn't look tortured to me.  She looks tired.

I disagree that her declaring war is about power for her.  It's about survival.  And probably jealousy that Rhaenyra has freedom that she doesn't.  Possibly a little previously suppressed ambition as well.  She is capable of having a lot of mixed up motivations.  I think, however, ultimately it was her father's warning which set the ideas in motion in her head.

49 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

By the same token, if Aegon became king, he'd pose the exact same threat to Rhaenyra and any - particularly male - children she may have.  This is a two-sided coin.

Oh, absolutely.  Either way, someone is seriously fucked.

47 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

So why did Otto put Alicent and his future grandchildren in that predicament by whoring her out to the king in the first place? His sudden concern comes a bit too late and I wish Alicent could see that.

Ambition.  He saw an opportunity and he took it.  He's a shit father, grandfather and person, but he's not wrong about the danger.  Where he screwed up was assuming that Viserys would dump Rhaenyra as heir as soon as Alicent produced a healthy son.  He's smart in a lot of ways, but he's hardly a super-genius.  It's clear to me that he was blinded by his own ambition.

Edited to add that Otto's big miscalculation was underestimating Viserys' affection for Rhaenyra.  He pretty much only cares for Alicent to the extent of seeing her as a means to achieve what he wants so he thought Viserys' feelings for his daughter would be transactional as well.  He probably should've known better, but he clearly thinks everyone has the same nature as him.

Edited September 21, 2022 by proserpina65

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't feel sorry for him, but she definitely was the aggressor in that sex scene and I do think she coerced him.  I really don't think he felt he had any right to say no to her given their respective positions.

- - -

It's just as much coercion when it's a woman doing it.  Sure, he had some choice, but she was a princess and he was a member of her guard - that's a huge difference in power.  Plus, he tried to stop her twice but she ignored him.  That's on her.

I wouldn't call it coercion, he didn't need much persuasion. But I agree that he couldn't say no: if he had, she could have claimed that he tried to rape her (cf, Joseph and Potifar's wife).  Not that he was afraid of it as he was in love with her and also lusted her.

She used him just as powerful men usually use women, without any consideration about his feelings (he had taken his vow earnestly and felt shame for breaking it) after he had been her confidante.     

[paigow]

50 minutes ago, xaxat said:

When I saw the individuals around the banquet table, I had a flashback to my orientation at the engineering department that actually took pride in washing people out.

"Look to your right. Look to your left. In four years two of you will be gone."

Was there also a big G.I. Jane bell on the beach for super shaming quitters??? 

[aghst]

By the time Agon would be old enough to rule, Otto would be decrepit.

So how does it benefit him?

Just the satisfaction that his blood now goes through the royal line?

[proserpina65]

6 minutes ago, aghst said:

By the time Agon would be old enough to rule, Otto would be decrepit.

So how does it benefit him?

Just the satisfaction that his blood now goes through the royal line?

A adolescent king on the throne needs someone to guide (read: manipulate) him.  I'm sure Otto sees himself in that role.  Obviously that depends on Viserys dying before his son is an adult but given the state of his health, it's not that big a leap.

Edited September 21, 2022 by proserpina65

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

A adolescent king on the throne needs someone to guide (read: manipulate) him.  I'm sure Otto... 

found a Tardis, travelled 200 years ahead and saw old Tywin running the show...

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:17 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, Viserys needing to basically beg Corlys to agree for Laenor to marry his daughter when she is by far the best match any man in the kingdom to make was bizarre. They try to make everything so dramatic and tense that it turns into stupid way too often.

A lot of reactors and reviewers are seeing what Corlys did as disrepectful to the King.  Folks are forgetting the familial connection through Rhaenys and that Viserys was desperate to solve the problem of his Heir acting the fool with her uncle.  No, it wasn't necessary for the King to go to Driftmark; it was necessary for Viserys to smooth things over with the highest positioned House in Westeros that he has insulted twice now. 

As I rewatched the episode, I would bet that Viserys didn't send word to Driftmark that he was coming there.  How would you have received your King if he shows up at your House unannounced?  Rhaenys would have greeted Viserys at the front door if she knew he was coming well before someone sighted the ship coming through.  That Viserys didn't allow Rhaenyra to fly to Driftmark on her dragon lends more weight to him showing up to Driftmark without prior notice to yes, beg for Corlys' forgiveness. 

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I dunno. It remains to be seen, of course. But I don't think one can fault Otto's logic.

I don't think Otto says or implies that Rhaenyra is already out to kill Aegon, but that she will inevitably get to that point.

Yes, he has a point about the danger he himself placed his daughter in, but he also talks as if he's aware Viserys could die very soon. In which case Aegon would be a toddler figurehead and Rhaenyra would likely still be reluctant to muirder him. The real crux of the matter is Alicent's immediate motivation, not Otto's logic. If his words, which were in no way brand new information, were enough to sway her, we wouldn't have the scenes with Larys and Criston. If her only interest in Rhaenyra's virginity was dutiful stepmotherly concern she wouldn't be moved to tears. She wasn't fighting for Aegon's claim before not just out of political innocence but because she loved Rhaenyra while her babies just gave her PPD. Now she feels disrespected by both Rhaenyra and Viserys, so she sides with her blood family wholeheartedly. If I can't have love I'll go for power and my son will do everything I cannot and all that. Trying to reduce everything to duty and politics is just bizaare to me when that's not how Emily Carey played it at all. One does not even need the repressed lesbian theory. Hasn't anyone else had that emotionally charged friendship where you don't know whether you want to be with them or just be them, just wanting to be around that person no matter what and jealous of all they have that you can't?

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

First, Daemon told that he now owned his wife's heritage and her wife's cousin looked astonished. So was there a law or custom that if the marriage was childless, the widow inherited, or did Daemon mean that he would take his late wife's fortune by force? 

Second, if all knew that the marriage wasn't consummated, was it even valid? 

Widow's rights would be a thing but since Daemon never lived there I don't see how he has a leg to stand on. Also, he said Rhea stood to inherit Runestone not that it was already hers. I don't think her being an heiress presumptive matters when she died without children before she could inherit. And I very much doubt Daemon is interested in settling in the Vale now. I think that was just him needling the cousin for daring to accuse him. Viserys is too busy dying to care about what Daemon does when it doesn't concern his children, but he's not going to lend Daemon legal support for this flimsy claim either. 

I'm sure Rhea told somebody the marriage wasn't consummated but that doesn't all knew across the kingdoms. Daemon clearly preferred to make everyone think she was the problem.

22 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Regardless, based on this episode, I lean towards Team Alicent.  I see Rhaenyra as someone who has the potential to be just as bad of a ruler as Daemon would be.

Okay, but though those are the rivals, it's not Alicent who would be sitting the throne in the long run, it would be Aegon. Assuming he'd be the good kind of Targ king just because he's not Rhaenyra is um... a pretty big assujmption. Maybe, just maybe, the show is not really about which dragon weirdo deserves absolute power over a continent. That's like the proverbial question of which Roy sibling deserves their billionaire father's empire.

I wouldn't say this show is as brilliant as Succession or Rome but it might be better to think of it in that way, as a bunch of damaged, not-so-great people contending for power. It's a gothic melodrama, a Shakespearean and/or Greek tragedy, a rich people soap opera with even less of the stardard heroic fantasy stories than GoT. 

I think we can feel bad for both girls. Someone said in another thread that Rhaenyra would willinng to run away with Daemon but not Criston, but actually the original person she wanted to run away with was Alicent. In the pilot, she twice mentioned wanting them to fly on dragonback together and said she only wanted to travel the world with Alicent and eat cake. There's something very tragic about how Otto and Viserys ruined that closeness. Otto because he just didn't care and Viserys wanting to believe they could genuinely be one happy family. He insists on keeping Rhaenyra as heir to make up for Aemma's death and his remarriage, not understanding that the real problem she can't forgive is his choice of wife.

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Therefore, his assumption was that Viserys would cast aside Rhaenyra and name any future firstborn son as his new heir... I guess Otto never heard the saying about the 'assume' problem. He not only played himself but created what's to come...dipshit.

Yes, and if Alicent had produced only daughters, then Daemon would still be the male alternative. Daemon, who Otto thought was so dangerous, and would be much more likely to harm Alicent than Rhaenyra. But oh no, Otto had to protect the realm from Daemon by putting his family in the crossfire instead of letting Viserys remarry anyone else. What a noble patriot he was to make that sacrifice.

Anyways, speaking of fairy tale fantasy tropes, apparently Rhea Royce's death site was also a filming location from The Princess Bride. Fitting since that is one of GRRM's favorite movies.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lady S.

[Raachel2008]

16 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

He insists on keeping Rhaenyra as heir to make up for Aemma's death and his remarriage, not understanding that the real problem she can't forgive is his choice of wife.

I don't even think Rhaenyra cannot forgive his choice of wife, just how it was done. Rhaenyra, IMO, never had any lesbian feelings towards Alicent, she just wanted to live her life as she wished. She didn't want the duties, but she wanted the freedom. There is a reason Daemon is so appealing to her: he does as he pleases. Sure, a lot of that comes from being a man, but she craves that kinda of freedom. Yet, she is dumb; as Rhaenys pointed to her, she was serving coffee while the men talked about the real issues, she acted like a brat in front of the entire court when she needed to project the image of someone fit to be the first real queen; she shouldn't have lost her virginity because she knows - she knows - it is a problem to any woman in these lands, never mind the princess an heiress of the throne. 

Alicent is incridibly jealous of Rhaenyra. And when Rhaenyra did everything Alicent could not, she felt betrayed, bedding Criston Cole AND lying being the last straw.

Viserys should have handled the marriage better. But he couldn't even tell Aemma that she was going to die, so...

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

By the same token, if Aegon became king, he'd pose the exact same threat to Rhaenyra and any - particularly male - children she may have.  This is a two-sided coin.

Well it depends on how sexist we believe Westeros to be.

Her main argument for legitimacy as queen - she's a direct descendant of Viserys and Viserys says she's heir, so she's heir - is getting trumped by her being a woman and Aegon also being a direct descendant of Viserys with the benefit of having a penis. 

Assuming Aegon were to ascend to the throne against the express wishes of Viserys, he might not need to secure his throne against a claim from Rhae or any of her descendants in the same way that Rhae needs to concern herself with people agitating for Aegon.

59 minutes ago, aghst said:

By the time Agon would be old enough to rule, Otto would be decrepit.

So how does it benefit him?

Just the satisfaction that his blood now goes through the royal line?

That and the notion that someone's got to be Aegon's lord regent between now and him being 21 or whatever the age of actual authority might be. Grampy Otto just might be willing to take one for the team in that regard.

Also, as we're seeing with Viserys, being decrepit is no obstacle to ruling.

17 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

As I rewatched the episode, I would bet that Viserys didn't send word to Driftmark that he was coming there.  How would you have received your King if he shows up at your House unannounced?  Rhaenys would have greeted Viserys at the front door if she knew he was coming well before someone sighted the ship coming through.  That Viserys didn't allow Rhaenyra to fly to Driftmark on her dragon lends more weight to him showing up to Driftmark without prior notice to yes, beg for Corlys' forgiveness. 

I think it pretty doubtful that a boat with royal colors in its sails could make it to Castle Corlys and be a complete surprise even if Viserys wanted it to be. What sort of Master of Ships would be caught off-guard by that?

Lord Strong's being salty about Corlys's absence supports the notion that there was ample notice and Corlys was just giving Viserys the finger.

Compare/contrast with the welcome that the Starks gave Robert when he came to Winterfell the first episode of GOT. Every member of the household was there to bid him welcome, kneeling, etc. The Valeryons were definitely set on snubbing Viserys.

[Raachel2008]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, as we're seeing with Viserys, being decrepit is no obstacle to ruling.

But on the other hand, Visery is not declaring war to anyone or having to deal with a huge famine or a secession of any form. It is a pretty easy reign.

[proserpina65]

41 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Rhaenyra would likely still be reluctant to muirder him.

I have serious doubts about her reluctance.

15 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That and the notion that someone's got to be Aegon's lord regent between now and him being 21 or whatever the age of actual authority might be. Grampy Otto just might be willing to take one for the team in that regard.

Also, as we're seeing with Viserys, being decrepit is no obstacle to ruling.

Exactly.

16 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it pretty doubtful that a boat with royal colors in its sails could make it to Castle Corlys and be a complete surprise even if Viserys wanted it to be. What sort of Master of Ships would be caught off-guard by that?

Lord Strong's being salty about Corlys's absence supports the notion that there was ample notice and Corlys was just giving Viserys the finger.

Compare/contrast with the welcome that the Starks gave Robert when he came to Winterfell the first episode of GOT. Every member of the household was there to bid him welcome, kneeling, etc. The Valeryons were definitely set on snubbing Viserys.

Yeah, Corlys and Rhaenys being absent was deliberate.

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But on the other hand, Visery is not declaring war to anyone or having to deal with a huge famine or a secession of any form. It is a pretty easy reign.

Otto's not exactly 100 and clearly he anticipates Viserys dying relatively soon.  He doesn't expect to be decrepit if/when he'd have to be regent for a child king.

[cambridgeguy]

58 minutes ago, paigow said:

found a Tardis, travelled 200 years ahead and saw old Tywin running the show...

plus he saw Olenna running the show despite her advanced age.  Being older doesn't mean you say screw it and ignore your family's legacy if you are the ambitious type.

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it pretty doubtful that a boat with royal colors in its sails could make it to Castle Corlys and be a complete surprise even if Viserys wanted it to be. What sort of Master of Ships would be caught off-guard by that?

Lord Strong's being salty about Corlys's absence supports the notion that there was ample notice and Corlys was just giving Viserys the finger.

Even if Corlys was inexplicably caught off guard, the respectful thing to do would have been to rush out there and at least meet him at the entrance to escort him in.  Instead he literally sat on his throne and waited for Viserys to walk up before he could even be bothered to stand. 

[paigow]

10 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Even if Corlys was inexplicably caught off guard, the respectful thing to do would have been to rush out there and at least meet him at the entrance to escort him in. 

If Viserys arrived 10 minutes later, he would have seen Laenor & Ser Douchebag making out

[Raachel2008]

10 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Otto's not exactly 100 and clearly he anticipates Viserys dying relatively soon.  He doesn't expect to be decrepit if/when he'd have to be regent for a child king.

I meant that Viserys being decript - and weak in more ways than one - is not an obstacle to ruling because he has an easy reign, without real major troubles. No famine, no war, etc. Westeros can afford a weak king and Viserys can afford being weak because he doesn't have a winter coming or is going bankrupt or even has some distant relative with a dragon marching with 8,000 thousands soldiers from across the sea.

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I meant that Viserys being decript - and weak in more ways than one - is not an obstacle to ruling because he has an easy reign, without real major troubles. No famine, no war, etc. 

Until Lobster King starts pirating...

[UnoAgain]

8 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I mean...that didn't happen in reality. LOL. Alicent is apparently unfortunately massively overestimating her sway over Viserys. He didn't care for one second about anything Alicent had to say. I think he actually trusted her less by the end of the last episode because he became so fully aware of how Otto had manipulated him (and Alicent even heard him say that, before she ever went and talked to Rhaenyra, but I guess it didn't land like it should have). He didn't even bother to ask Rhaenyra what happened because he knew she was probably going to lie to him. He also sent her the tea because he was perfectly aware she was no longer a virgin. Alicent's beliefs and actions did not matter even 1% in the overall outcome. Not with Rhaenyra, not with Otto. Of course, that may be hard for Alicent to accept, that she has no power when it comes to Viserys or Rhaenyra, but she doesn't as of this moment. That she believed Rhaenyra was utterly irrelevant to how Viserys responded, and how Viserys responded was ultimately the only thing that mattered because he is the king. I think Alicent will get much better at playing the game of thrones and gathering her own power - she has to in order to survive - but I was not impressed by her reaction or her little stunt in this particular episode. I don't blame Rhaenyra for not telling her the truth - she was protecting herself in a ruthless world. It would have been dumb for Rhaenyra to confide in her. 

Thank-you... They've only just become friendly again after Alicent slinked into Viserys' bedroom after his wife died.. And promptly marries and produces the boy that Viserys wanted so badly that he cut his wife.. Her mother open to get... Without a word of warning to rhae... And even if rhae didn't think that Alicent would betray her confidence... She's got No fucking reason to think Otto wouldn't hear of it and use it in yet another attempt to replace her... Between who's actions place the other in more danger it's been the hightower hag by a mile.. And folks want me to believe that a lie of omission by rhae about her body is what makes alicent realize her kids are in danger.... 

Ducktales 

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well it depends on how sexist we believe Westeros to be.

Her main argument for legitimacy as queen - she's a direct descendant of Viserys and Viserys says she's heir, so she's heir - is getting trumped by her being a woman and Aegon also being a direct descendant of Viserys with the benefit of having a penis. 

Assuming Aegon were to ascend to the throne against the express wishes of Viserys, he might not need to secure his throne against a claim from Rhae or any of her descendants in the same way that Rhae needs to concern herself with people agitating for Aegon.

I think it's a safe bet that some lords* would uphold their vow of allegiance to Rhaenyra, not to mention she is now married to Laenor, which means House Velaryon and those aligned with them would undoubtedly have something to say. And additionally, that between them, Rhaenyra & hubby's fam have a fair few dragons...

*For example, can anyone imagine House Stark not upholding a solemn vow to a legitimate named heir and becoming oathbreakers?

[Raachel2008]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

Until Lobster King starts pirating...

That's a nuisance and contrived plot. The Targaryens have dragons, all they needed was to have two of these dragos taking turns stepping on these rocks and they would have buried all those pirates. Sorry, but anything envoving dragons/war is contrived.

[CountryGirl]

How Criston should have handled things:

[CountryGirl]

While I see much chemistry with Rhae and Daemon, I have to admit, these moments had me fanning myself:

Harwin can hoist me like a sack of potatoes over his shoulder anytime.

Which reminded me of their first (I believe) on-screen encounter:

[UnoAgain]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wouldn't call it coercion, he didn't need much persuasion. But I agree that he couldn't say no: if he had, she could have claimed that he tried to rape her (cf, Joseph and Potifar's wife).  Not that he was afraid of it as he was in love with her and also lusted her.

She used him just as powerful men usually use women, without any consideration about his feelings (he had taken his vow earnestly and felt shame for breaking it) after he had been her confidante.     

See it's the honor thing that gets me... True honor would be walking away.. Or at least laying out why they shouldn't.. He did nada.. His job was to protect her.. That includes from herself... If he knew her as well as he said... Do you really think he thought she'd accuse him of rape.. What has rhae shown up to now to make us or him think that?.. And if she really went that shitbird route then she's the bad guy... He would still habe that oh so precious honor.. But no.. He went to smash cheeks.. Good on him.. But then you gotta love with the consequences.. Ned Stark.. An actual honorable man.. Took his wife's ire.. A stain on his name by calling Jon his bastard...convenience woulda been to just tell folks.. Honor said deal with whatever may come and keep quiet...which meant lying to everyone... Letting Jon live as a bastard when he wasn't.. And Ned stood firm... Sir cinnamon banged his charge.  Which going by this honor stained both of them.. Compounds it by asking her to leave the realm and her duty.. Also again breaking an oath.. All to assuage his guilt.. He gets rebuffed... Promptly tells the mother of the boy who's supporters are clamoring to replace her with...a huge secret.. Then torpedos her wedding by punching her soon to be husband.. And Future King-Consort.. Who he knows isn't gonna be after rhae in that way... Then for good measure.. Obliterates the face of Laenor's lover... Lack of honor.. Dereliction of duty x 100

[Meredith Quill]

22 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

While I see much chemistry with Rhae and Daemon, I have to admit, these moments had me fanning myself:

Harwin can hoist me like a sack of potatoes over his shoulder anytime.

Which reminded me of their first (I believe) on-screen encounter:

It's not for nothing that he's called Harwin 'Breakbones' Strong 😉

[magdalene]

I did feel sorry for Criston Cole up to a point.  However, I never forgot what universe I am watching.  He looks like a romantic Disney prince and in this universe Prince Charming is a trope that's going to get subverted sooner or later. And sooner came this episode.  First he whined about wanting to marry Rhae to restore his honor. And then he made hamburger out of Joffrey of the kisses face.

I have been trying to figure out what angle Lord Larys is playing. I think he is playing both sides.  He and his family know that a civil war is coming, but they don't know who is going to come out on top. Larys wants to ensure that eventually he will be irreplacable to the winner.

[Chicago Redshirt]

55 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I think it's a safe bet that some lords* would uphold their vow of allegiance to Rhaenyra, not to mention she is now married to Laenor, which means House Velaryon and those aligned with them would undoubtedly have something to say. And additionally, that between them, Rhaenyra & hubby's fam have a fair few dragons...

*For example, can anyone imagine House Stark not upholding a solemn vow to a legitimate named heir and becoming oathbreakers?

For sure some houses/lords would back Rhae...the Starks and Velaryons most prominent among them. 

But in this scenario, enough have backed Aegon to install him over those lords' objections. That change in circumstances, it seems to me, would make it unlikely that a King Aegon would have that much to fear from Rhae trying to make a play for the throne because she still has a coochie. Loyalty to the expressed desires of dead Viserys, weak-ass king*, is only going to go so far.

*To paraphrase a comedian who does a House of the Dragon recap, if the Game of Thrones were Uno, Viserys is just a yellow 7.

54 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

That's a nuisance and contrived plot. The Targaryens have dragons, all they needed was to have two of these dragos taking turns stepping on these rocks and they would have buried all those pirates. Sorry, but anything envoving dragons/war is contrived.

Yeah, this. Even if the Crabfeeder's men could hide themselves in caves and escape the dragons' wrath that way, it is pretty much impossible that they could simultaneously be pressing their power to the point where the forces of Corlys/Daemon could be deemed losing and in desperate need of aid unless they were completely incompetent.

Anytime the Crabfeeder attempted to attack a ship, a dragon could just appear and burninate them. They should be able to surround any island refuge and starve it of resources.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Otto's not exactly 100 and clearly he anticipates Viserys dying relatively soon.  He doesn't expect to be decrepit if/when he'd have to be regent for a child king.

And yes just having your bloodline on the throne is a big deal in itself. Legacy was what Tywin was always yammering on about to pretend his ambitions weren't about selfish personal power. In his case, Robert's unhealthy lifestyle meant him dying when Tywin's grandkids were young wasn't shocking, but it wasn't something he could count on either if Cersei hadn't murdered Robert. And however old Joffrey or Tommen were as kings the plan would be for a Lannister as King's Hand. Otto wants to reclaim that position for himself but he also needs future generations of kings with Hightower blood for lasting glory for his family. There's a big difference between being stepmother to a Queen and being foremother to all future monarchs.

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

I think it's a safe bet that some lords* would uphold their vow of allegiance to Rhaenyra, not to mention she is now married to Laenor, which means House Velaryon and those aligned with them would undoubtedly have something to say. And additionally, that between them, Rhaenyra & hubby's fam have a fair few dragons...

*For example, can anyone imagine House Stark not upholding a solemn vow to a legitimate named heir and becoming oathbreakers?

Right, it's weird to say Rhaenyra won't give up the throne without a fight and that she's no threat to Aegon. Especially at this point when she and her husband are dragonriders and Aegon is a baby still playing with a dragon toy. Is she really going to be quietly packed off to be a septa? 

[Meredith Quill]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For sure some houses/lords would back Rhae...the Starks and Velaryons most prominent among them. 

But in this scenario, enough have backed Aegon to install him over those lords' objections. That change in circumstances, it seems to me, would make it unlikely that a King Aegon would have that much to fear from Rhae trying to make a play for the throne because she still has a coochie. Loyalty to the expressed desires of dead Viserys, weak-ass king*, is only going to go so far.

Perhaps it's just me, but multiple (minimum of 5 that would be on Rhaenyra's side I can think of at present) dragons = something to fear when you consider Aegon I took the entire Seven Kingdoms with but three. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ybrik]

Yeah Rhaenyra has a strong backing as well with this marriage to Leanor. He and his mother are both dragon riders and possibly his sister too (I say this based on what we have seen so far, ignoring spoilers/previews). You add Daemon and Rhaenyra’s own dragons that is at least 4 dragons.

Then you got the most powerful/wealthiest family backing you. Which is also in charge of the biggest fleet.

As others have mentioned you would have the North as the Starks wouldn’t break their oath.

There was also another obvious ally that Rhaenyra would have that was just mentioned in this episode. Lady Jeyne of the Vale.  Obviously she would want to help keep Rhaenyra as heir despite a possible male heir so that if she would keep her rule over any male contesting for the Vale. 

While Aegon would definitely have a large backing, it would be a falsehood to think that Rhaenyra at this point didn’t have a pretty good faction backing her as well. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

55 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Perhaps it's just me, but multiple (minimum of 5 that would be on Rhaenyra's side I can think of at present) dragons = something to fear when you consider Aegon I took the entire Seven Kingdoms with but three. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Having only the episodes to go on, I don't know much about how many dragons there are, how powerful they are relative to each other, or which would be loyal to who. Obviously, Rhae has a dragon, her new husband has one, and Daemon has one. I think it was mentioned at some point how many dragons there are but I don't remember off the top what that number is.

As I complained above, the show wants us to think that two unopposed dragons and a bunch of ships were fighting a years-long losing battle to pirates without any dragons. Three unopposed dragons can conquer a realm, but it's not immediately obvious how three, or five, or 10 dragons might fare against 2 dragons and mass popular and political support. 

And again, it circles back to the question of what is a more powerful force: dragons or sexism?

Edited September 21, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[paigow]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Larys wants to ensure that eventually he will be irreplacable to the winner.

He knows that Daddy & Super Sexy Brother are Ride or Die with Viserys... playing both sides secretly is a difficult path because Daddy would not hesitate killing Larys for treason.

Corlys mentioned that House Velaryon controls half of the combat ready dragons...

Edited September 21, 2022 by paigow

[Lady S.]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It circles back to the question of what is a more powerful force: dragons or sexism?

I wasn't aware sexism could make anyone fireproof. We haven't seen all the dragons but we know Alicent doesn't have one and Aegon is no dragonrider yet because he's a literal baby. 

I mean, even Otto is not saying Aegon could peacefully take the throne without Viserys naming him heir. He's stating for a fact there will be war. Since someone else brought up the historical inspiration of Henry I's succession, maybe worth noting that the Anarchy lasted a damn long time without Matilda, her husband, or her sons having dragons.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Perhaps it's just me, but multiple (minimum of 5 that would be on Rhaenyra's side I can think of at present) dragons = something to fear when you consider Aegon I took the entire Seven Kingdoms with but three. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, back in the old days, but these new Millennial and Gen Z dragons?

Daemon & the Velaryons had 2 of them and got their ass kicked for 3 years by the paid non-attorney spokesman for Old Bay Seasoning.

Now get off my lawn! 

[king of bullshit]

I count among the number of those confused over Ser Criston's sudden actions resulting in the altercation at the end of the episode. Whatever angle I look at it from, his exact reason for killing Joffrey isn't clear and I'm unable to make sense of the widely touted reason that it was due to Joffrey threatening him. What threat? Threats usually proceed in the form of: 'I'll punish you by doing x if you do y'. If we're in agreement that x equals: outing his and Rhaenyra's affair, then what is y? Wouldn't it be the same thing? Wouldn't discouraging Criston from spilling the beans be his aim? How do you threaten to punish someone with the very actions you're seeking to deter?

If the threat is that he'll kill him if he ever flaps his gums, that still seems just as circular to me. Criston's life is already forfeit if he ever talks, hence his plea to Alicent to spare him torture in favor of a dignified death immediately after confessing. That sounds a bit like threatening to shoot someone if they choose to run into traffic. It may be that the intent of the writers was to portray it as a threat but it doesn't make sense to me. And whatever mental progression spiraled Criston into public murder was not organically depicted otherwise the moment would not have shocked so many.

Re: the debate on Daemon and his wife. I'm inclined to believe he intended to murder her from the outset and wasn't provoked(by her) into doing so. Killing her completed the facade of an "accident" he was trying to create. Broken spine, crushed head, 'oh she must have fallen off her horse.' If he had left her there her people would have found her as they would have come looking not long after noticing that she hadn't returned at an expected time and she would have told them of his role in her current predicament. I'm thinking she goaded him simply because she didn't want to spend the rest of her life as a paralytic not knowing he was always planning to finish.

That's what would make sense anyway. Storyteller intent isn't guaranteed to always make sense.

On 9/19/2022 at 7:46 PM, SilverStormm said:

I'm sure that played a part yes. However, to me she was mostly portrayed as upset because Rhaenyra wasn't 100% upfront with her about what happened that night.

I don't think we got any portrayal giving us the why behind her upset state. We saw her react to the realization of Rhaenyra's deception with anger but that's basically the default reaction to finding out a trusted friend lied. When the symptoms of one's state of upset over such a thing are so extreme as to escalate to an apparent declaration of war, a why is warranted, and the only scene in the episode contextualizing her anger is the one with her father. The realization of Rhaenyra's lie led to the realization that she'd gotten her father fired over a lie.

It's possible we're meant to think she's also now takes his(Otto's) words about the potential danger to her children more seriously as a result(as some have advanced). That however seems like a pretty big jump to me. It being about Otto actually makes sense. "My lifelong friend is capable of lying to me therefore she's capable of killing my children" doesn't really follow.

Edited September 22, 2022 by king of bullshit

[Dac22]

19 minutes ago, king of bullshit said:

I'm unable to make sense of the widely touted reason that it was due to Joffrey threatening him. What threat?

But then that begs the question of what Joffrey's motive was for approaching Criston?

Joffrey is aware Rhaenyra and Laenor have an understanding. If he merely wanted to build a bridge, then let Rhaenyra be the one to do it as she actually knows Criston and what is going on between them. 

Choosing to approach a complete stranger, tell them you know their worst/shameful secret which would get them killed and cause problems for the one they love, and then intentionally disrespecting them as you leave is pretty much the worst 'make a friend' option. 

So the idea Joffrey was simply trying to befriend/bond with Criston doesn't make any sense to me, either.

I think my interpretation is Joffrey approaching him was an arrogant power play to let Criston know how things were going to be, thinking he had the upper-hand, and Criston perceived that as a threat.

It's the only thing that really makes sense to me. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

I wasn't aware sexism could make anyone fireproof. We haven't seen all the dragons but we know Alicent doesn't have one and Aegon is no dragonrider yet because he's a literal baby. 

I mean, even Otto is not saying Aegon could peacefully take the throne without Viserys naming him heir. He's stating for a fact there will be war. Since someone else brought up the historical inspiration of Henry I's succession, maybe worth noting that the Anarchy lasted a damn long time without Matilda, her husband, or her sons having dragons.

Sexism can't make someone fireproof. But it can make people stubborn enough to risk war. And in the face of it, even an overwhelming military advantage in dragons might not be enough to allow Rhae to sleep easy. 

Neither I nor anyone as far as I'm aware is suggesting Aegon could take the throne peacefully or easily. 

All I am saying is that if Aegon were to reach the throne, he would not have the same  necessity to kill Rhae that she does to kill him and any male siblings. IMO her having been designated heir by Viserys does not represent the same ongoing threat to his legitimacy that Rhae's being female and Aegon being male represents to Rhae. I can envision a world where a defeated Rhae could continue to exist and no one would seek to restore her to the throne, and therefore, Aegon would not feel a need to kill Rhae. Based on what we've seen so far of the world of HOD and GOT, there seems to be little room for a queen, and her head would always have to be uneasy when wearing a crown that much of the kingdom thinks belongs exclusively to a male.

32 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

But then that begs the question of what Joffrey's motive was for approaching Criston?

Joffrey is aware Rhaenyra and Laenor have an understanding. If he merely wanted to build a bridge, then let Rhaenyra be the one to do it as she actually knows Criston and what is going on between them. 

Choosing to approach a complete stranger, tell them you know their worst/shameful secret which would get them killed and cause problems for the one they love, and then intentionally disrespecting them as you leave is pretty much the worst 'make a friend' option. 

So the idea Joffrey was simply trying to befriend/bond with Criston doesn't make any sense to me, either.

I think my interpretation is Joffrey approaching him was an arrogant power play to let Criston know how things were going to be, thinking he had the upper-hand, and Criston perceived that as a threat.

It's the only thing that really makes sense to me. 

My read on Joffrey's motive was no threat, but just a mix of playfulness and wanting to bond. Joffrey probably thinks that the relationship between Cris and Rae is like his with his dude. And if his words were interpreted in that spirit, it's more of a "we're all in this together, should be fun keeping secrets together, right?" Who knows, maybe he was hoping for some hot foursome action?

But of course, this was exactly the wrong thing to say to Cris at that time or any time. Because unlike Joffrey and Lae, Cris took a vow. And further unlike them, Cris takes vows seriously. And further unlike them, Cris is not in a good position with Rhae. And unlike them, Cris actually faces castration, death, exile or any number of bad consequences if he's outed. (Maybe I'm wrong, but realistically, the worst that would happen to Chris and Lae would be some gossip like we saw with Renly and Loras.) So instead of taking the invite to be sidepiece-in-laws, Cris got furious and we saw the rest. 

[The Kings Foot]

2 hours ago, king of bullshit said:

I count among the number of those confused over Ser Criston's sudden actions resulting in the altercation at the end of the episode. Whatever angle I look at it from, his exact reason for killing Joffrey isn't clear and I'm unable to make sense of the widely touted reason that it was due to Joffrey threatening him. What threat? Threats usually proceed in the form of: 'I'll punish you by doing x if you do y'. If we're in agreement that x equals: outing his and Rhaenyra's affair, then what is y? Wouldn't it be the same thing? Wouldn't discouraging Criston from spilling the beans be his aim? How do you threaten to punish someone with the very actions you're seeking to deter?

If the threat is that he'll kill him if he ever flaps his gums, that still seems just as circular to me. Criston's life is already forfeit if he ever talks, hence his plea to Alicent to spare him torture in favor of a dignified death immediately after confessing. That sounds a bit like threatening to shoot someone if they choose to run into traffic. It may be that the intent of the writers was to portray it as a threat but it doesn't make sense to me. And whatever mental progression spiraled Criston into public murder was not organically depicted otherwise the moment would not have shocked so many.

Yeah  it wasnt a threat.  What sparked Cole was his obsession with his personal honor.  Remember he expected to be excecuted  when he confessed. Now its months later and nothing has happened.  He's not happy to be alive.  To use a 90's expression he's about to go postal. 

2 hours ago, Dac22 said:

But then that begs the question of what Joffrey's motive was for approaching Criston?

Joffrey is aware Rhaenyra and Laenor have an understanding. If he merely wanted to build a bridge, then let Rhaenyra be the one to do it as she actually knows Criston and what is going on between them. 

Choosing to approach a complete stranger, tell them you know their worst/shameful secret which would get them killed and cause problems for the one they love, and then intentionally disrespecting them as you leave is pretty much the worst 'make a friend' option. 

So the idea Joffrey was simply trying to befriend/bond with Criston doesn't make any sense to me, either.

I think my interpretation is Joffrey approaching him was an arrogant power play to let Criston know how things were going to be, thinking he had the upper-hand, and Criston perceived that as a threat.

It's the only thing that really makes sense to me. 

What youre missing is Joffrey doesnt think its a shameful secret.  Sure its something that has to be kept secret but he's very happy with the situation. As he told Laenor on the beach "This is the best situation we could hope for" 

Remember even at the wedding dance Laenor had to "shush" him because he was talking about the affair loudly.  Joffrey doesn't feel any sort of embarrassment or timidity about the situation.   

His mistake was in thinking Cole thought the same.  So he walks up all "Hey we're about to be eskimo brothers!" Not realizing he's triggering Cole into running amok. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Dac22]

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

What youre missing is Joffrey doesnt think its a shameful secret. 

Yet Joffrey fully knows that a member of the Kingsguard sleeping with the princess is a death sentence for the former and a problem causer for the latter. So just because Joffrey is cool with how things are doesn't mean Criston would be.

The thing is it's nearly impossible for me to believe Joffrey would be so stupid to automatically assume a complete stranger, who he knows nothing about, is as chill with things as he is when he doesn't even know the situation. 

And as people have mentioned somewhere else, the act of Joffrey forcing Criston to pull his sword back while walking away is potentially considered disrespectful?

I know in another book series I read a character tipping another's hilt back ended up in a brawl so it could be similar? I think the fact the camera focused on it does lend some credence to the possibility.

All in all, I really don't know if we'll ever get the full picture unless those involved paint it for us.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dac22

[Meredith Quill]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Sexism can't make someone fireproof. But it can make people stubborn enough to risk war. And in the face of it, even an overwhelming military advantage in dragons might not be enough to allow Rhae to sleep easy. 

Neither I nor anyone as far as I'm aware is suggesting Aegon could take the throne peacefully or easily. 

All I am saying is that if Aegon were to reach the throne, he would not have the same  necessity to kill Rhae that she does to kill him and any male siblings. IMO her having been designated heir by Viserys does not represent the same ongoing threat to his legitimacy that Rhae's being female and Aegon being male represents to Rhae. I can envision a world where a defeated Rhae could continue to exist and no one would seek to restore her to the throne, and therefore, Aegon would not feel a need to kill Rhae. Based on what we've seen so far of the world of HOD and GOT, there seems to be little room for a queen, and her head would always have to be uneasy when wearing a crown that much of the kingdom thinks belongs exclusively to a male.

Having given my own thoughts on why I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Rhaenyra wouldn't represent enough of a threat to Aegon's reign to warrant wanting to murder her and any children she may have, I will leave it at that, otherwise we risk going in circles. Perhaps the show itself will prove one of us to be right and one wrong in the fullness of time.

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Eh, she doesn't look tortured to me.  She looks tired.

...which is natural if a mother had long held in her arms a baby who doesn't stop crying.  

Remember that a royal or noble lady didn't generally tend her babies herself - it was the job of servants. Often children were even raised somewhere else that at home.   

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Having given my own thoughts on why I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Rhaenyra wouldn't represent enough of a threat to Aegon's reign to warrant wanting to murder her and any children she may have, I will leave it at that, otherwise we risk going in circles. Perhaps the show itself will prove one of us to be right and one wrong in the fullness of time.

I think it mostly depends in future circumstances. People rarely see, or at least admit, beforehand what they are going to do in some situation, especially if it's new to them.

There are also a possibility to solve the problem by making a marriage between children of opposite parties, especially as both are threatened by the third party,  

13 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

 Do you really think he thought she'd accuse him of rape.. What has rhae shown up to now to make us or him think that?

Of course he didn't think so.

I suggested only that there was such a possibility: "a woman scorned" etc.

[UnoAgain]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I suggested only that there was such a possibility: "a woman scorned" etc.

Oh I get it.. Like a soft nod to the underlying bias on women... But if you flip it his actions nod to the hypocrisy as he's the one that went scorched earth

[Constantinople]

17 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

*For example, can anyone imagine House Stark not upholding a solemn vow to a legitimate named heir and becoming oathbreakers?

You mean like Robb breaking his promise to marry one of Lord Frey's daughters or granddaughters so he could get in Talisa's pants?

Or Jon leaving the Nights Watch? And if you want to argue Jon was released from his Nights Watch vows after he died, then he was no longer the Lord Commander. In which case he straight up murdered Olly, Ser Aliser, etc. because he no longer had the authority to execute them.

Jon also acknowledged Daenerys as Queen and then shivved her while he was kissing her.

Theon was raised in Stark culture and hailed Robb as King in the North. How did that work out?

Arya wanted all of the benefits of training as a Faceless Man but none of the duties.

And we all know of your admiration for Sansa.

Rickon walked a straight line, or at least ran one. Didn't turn out too well.

[jeansheridan]

18 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

While I see much chemistry with Rhae and Daemon, I have to admit, these moments had me fanning mysel

Ditto. He has a bit of Bronn and The Hound in him. I am actually shocked Daemon did nothing. She was on her own in the scrum.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I meant that Viserys being decript - and weak in more ways than one - is not an obstacle to ruling because he has an easy reign, without real major troubles. No famine, no war, etc. Westeros can afford a weak king and Viserys can afford being weak because he doesn't have a winter coming or is going bankrupt or even has some distant relative with a dragon marching with 8,000 thousands soldiers from across the sea.

Thanks for the clarification.

18 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I think it's a safe bet that some lords* would uphold their vow of allegiance to Rhaenyra, not to mention she is now married to Laenor, which means House Velaryon and those aligned with them would undoubtedly have something to say. And additionally, that between them, Rhaenyra & hubby's fam have a fair few dragons...

*For example, can anyone imagine House Stark not upholding a solemn vow to a legitimate named heir and becoming oathbreakers?

A few probably would.  Many others would weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each side and choose accordingly.  We've already seen that most of the lords are not like Ned Stark.  Hell, not all Starks are like Ned.

Plus, Alicent's kids will probably be getting dragons too.

17 hours ago, magdalene said:

I have been trying to figure out what angle Lord Larys is playing. I think he is playing both sides.  He and his family know that a civil war is coming, but they don't know who is going to come out on top. Larys wants to ensure that eventually he will be irreplacable to the winner.

Yep, I think that's exactly what Larys is up to, playing both sides against the other and preparing to swoop in to help whichever side wins.  I don't think it's necessarily a coincidence that he reminds some here of Littlefinger.

17 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Perhaps it's just me, but multiple (minimum of 5 that would be on Rhaenyra's side I can think of at present) dragons = something to fear when you consider Aegon I took the entire Seven Kingdoms with but three. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's assuming the riders of those 5 all survive by the time Alicent's children are grown and have dragons of their own.   Plus we don't know how many fully grown adult dragons there are.  I'm guessing that's something we'll learn in the fullness of time. 

I think Otto is trying to manipulate Alicent into playing a longer game although I'm not sure she has the sophistication or cunning to do that.  He sure does, however.

17 hours ago, ybrik said:

There was also another obvious ally that Rhaenyra would have that was just mentioned in this episode. Lady Jeyne of the Vale.  Obviously she would want to help keep Rhaenyra as heir despite a possible male heir so that if she would keep her rule over any male contesting for the Vale. 

Why would she support Rhaenyra?  I'm guessing a lot would depend on who Daemon ends up supporting since House Royce owes allegiance to the Vale.  I suspect they would go against anyone allied with the person who murdered one of their own.

16 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I mean, even Otto is not saying Aegon could peacefully take the throne without Viserys naming him heir. He's stating for a fact there will be war. Since someone else brought up the historical inspiration of Henry I's succession, maybe worth noting that the Anarchy lasted a damn long time without Matilda, her husband, or her sons having dragons.

Oh, absolutely, none of this is going to go down peacefully.

[LanceM]

I think Lady Jeyne Arryn will likely support Rhaenerya for the simple fact that Rhaenyra is Aemma Arryn’s daughter.

[king of bullshit]

14 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Yet Joffrey fully knows that a member of the Kingsguard sleeping with the princess is a death sentence for the former and a problem causer for the latter. So just because Joffrey is cool with how things are doesn't mean Criston would be.

The existence of their dalliance in spite of those consequences might have led Joffrey to believe (somewhat understandably) that Criston was at least a little like him. And his observance of cuntstruck stares solidified his deductions I guess.

He perhaps immediately shared his own secret to pacify the only assumed anxieties he felt Criston might have. I.e. fear of his secret ever getting out and fear of Rhaenyra's new betrothed becoming an obstacle to his and her's continued relationship. Hell, maybe he assumed Rhaenyra had already caught Criston up as Laenor immediately did with him. I can see that train of thought I think.

As for the thing about Criston being forced to pull his sword back; if true, it's kind of odd that the show creators assumed we would all just know that without explanation. What are the odds that the majority of viewers instantly understood the disrespect inherent in such an action?

I've personally never heard of it and would say that all seemingly contradictory factors that make it difficult to determine a comprehensible account of that entire interaction ought be interpreted in this vein:

We simply don't assume that all the parts under discussion are like pieces of a puzzle that form a coherent picture when assembled correctly.

Storytellers are just as fallible as anybody else and prone to errors in logic even on works they've arduously refined. The answer could be as uncomplicated as that the scene simply doesn't make sense with everything taken into consideration and not that there's anything in particular we might be missing. That's certainly a possibility I'm open to. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by king of bullshit

[Meredith Quill]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

You mean like Robb breaking his promise to marry one of Lord Frey's daughters or granddaughters so he could get in Talisa's pants?

Or Jon leaving the Nights Watch? And if you want to argue Jon was released from his Nights Watch vows after he died, then he was no longer the Lord Commander. In which case he straight up murdered Olly, Ser Aliser, etc. because he no longer had the authority to execute them.

Jon also acknowledged Daenerys as Queen and then shivved her while he was kissing her.

Theon was raised in Stark culture and hailed Robb as King in the North. How did that work out?

Arya wanted all of the benefits of training as a Faceless Man but none of the duties.

And we all know of your admiration for Sansa.

Rickon walked a straight line, or at least ran one. Didn't turn out too well.

I'm no particular Stark fan - except for Ned, as for the rest you mentioned, fuck them + Bran the Broken.

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

A few probably would.  Many others would weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each side and choose accordingly.  We've already seen that most of the lords are not like Ned Stark.  Hell, not all Starks are like Ned.

That's assuming the riders of those 5 all survive by the time Alicent's children are grown and have dragons of their own.   Plus we don't know how many fully grown adult dragons there are.  I'm guessing that's something we'll learn in the fullness of time. 

I made sure to quantify using 'some' re lords. Naturally, that's assuming those riders survive - heck, this scenario is assuming Rhaenyra herself survives until/if Aegon makes it to adulthood...