S05.E02: Ballet

[chaifan]

8 hours ago, crashdown said:

Co-sign--I feel the exact same way. She's definitely my favorite, because she's the most interesting and nuanced. She's written very well, and Yvonne portrays her brilliantly. There's something about Serena that makes me root for her to be better, and I'll be very curious to learn what the writers do with her ultimately.  Now that Fred is out of the way, now that she has options beyond Gilead, anything can happen. Until I can't think it anymore, I envision Serena and June working on the same side, if not precisely for the same reasons. 

Ah, so this is where we diverge...  I am not rooting for Serena to be better.  I'm rooting for her to try to be better (her version of better), but repeatedly failing in those attempts.  I've always seen Serena as driven more by power lust than evil intentions.  She had that pre-Gilead, as an author and celebrity.  She had her adoring followers.  When she wasn't able to hold the power herself, she did everything she could to make Fred as powerful as he could be.  Now that he's gone, she wants it all back, and then some.  She wants her flock of followers back.  She wants adoration of the masses.  (She loved the vigil outside the morgue - they weren't there for Fred, they were there for her.)  I want to see her get tripped up by her lust for power.

I really don't want to see June and Serena as a team.

If I were in charge of the writing room, over this season and next (I've heard next season is the last), I'd minimize June and concentrate on Serena.  I'd put Serena on a path to lead the pro-Gilead followers in Canada.  But, to make things interesting, I'd have her give it a bit of a Serena twist - she'd openly advocate for women being able to read and be part of the Gilead leadership, maybe a few other tweaks that have the slightest hint of feminism.  Nothing too radical, but enough to put her at odds with Gilead, where they don't know if she's helping their cause or not.  And just enough to entice Mrs. Putnam and the other wives to secretly follow her and start their own mini-revolution.  I think Serena vs. Gilead is a much more interesting story than June vs. Gilead.  Oh, and give Lawrence a bunch of screen time, too.  Just because he's a hoot to watch. 

[crashdown]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Ah, so this is where we diverge...  I am not rooting for Serena to be better.  I'm rooting for her to try to be better (her version of better), but repeatedly failing in those attempts.  I've always seen Serena as driven more by power lust than evil intentions.  She had that pre-Gilead, as an author and celebrity.  She had her adoring followers.  When she wasn't able to hold the power herself, she did everything she could to make Fred as powerful as he could be.  Now that he's gone, she wants it all back, and then some.  She wants her flock of followers back.  She wants adoration of the masses.  (She loved the vigil outside the morgue - they weren't there for Fred, they were there for her.)  I want to see her get tripped up by her lust for power

I agree with the idea that Serena is entranced by power; she wants to be powerful. The wild card here is going to be motherhood and how that might complicate or change things for her. I'm imagining that Serena's becoming a mother (and actually giving birth herself) will change her in some fundamental fashion. This show is VERY big on the transformative powers of maternal love.

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I really don't want to see June and Serena as a team.

I do, because I think that the "Woman's Work" episode in season two was the most poignant one of the series: they worked together, they found common ground, they respected each other, and then Fred was threatened by it and blew it all to bits, possibly irrevocably. But they never stopped having an underlying respect/caring for each other, even at their lowest points, even when they hated each other. I want to see that "Woman's Work" dynamic back in the end by having them working on the same side, even if they're doing it for very different reasons. However, that would be a wildly unpopular decision with viewers, most of whom want to see Serena torn apart by dogs. (Yvonne and Lizzie, from what I've gathered, see their characters the way I see them, but they're not ultimately in charge of the story.

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

If I were in charge of the writing room, over this season and next (I've heard next season is the last), I'd minimize June and concentrate on Serena.  I'd put Serena on a path to lead the pro-Gilead followers in Canada.  But, to make things interesting, I'd have her give it a bit of a Serena twist - she'd openly advocate for women being able to read and be part of the Gilead leadership, maybe a few other tweaks that have the slightest hint of feminism.  Nothing too radical, but enough to put her at odds with Gilead, where they don't know if she's helping their cause or not.  And just enough to entice Mrs. Putnam and the other wives to secretly follow her and start their own mini-revolution.  I think Serena vs. Gilead is a much more interesting story than June vs. Gilead.  Oh, and give Lawrence a bunch of screen time, too.  Just because he's a hoot to watch. 

If I don't get my SuperTeam ending, I'd be content with yours. I do think we're going to see the wives rising up this season, and that's why we have a bit of an increase already in Naomi Putnam's character. Serena vs. Gilead IS a much better story right now than what June has going on with them, and I have confidence that we're going to see plenty of it.

[Redrum]

I think the problem of focusing on Serena is that she ultimately wants a system where she and a select few women have power and she also has her Martha and Handmaid as slave workers. She wants a system where she's on top, not a system where everyone is treated decently.

[belladonna77]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:14 PM, madpsych78 said:

Just speculation, but Hannah....doesn't seem much younger than Esther TBH. I wonder if she is going to be groomed to be a wife?

In The Testaments, Hannah/Agnes is treated like any other commander's child and therefore would follow the commander's wife path.  Gilead is still relatively young, so I don't think it's possible for them to have a caste system that differentiates between children taken away from women that were adulterers/whatever and children that were born to handmaids (of which Hannah is kind of both).

23 hours ago, Redrum said:

Esther has no proven record of fertility. She has not had a child despite her fertile husband and his fertile friends going at her. 

Why would there be an assumption of fertility when she's by all Gilead reasoning infertile?

Mind you, not that invested here. Esther is a handmaid because we need a face to get kicked and tortured even though in an execution happy dictatorship killing her husband would be a death sentence. Its just if we were really playing by the rules if Gilead, no baby means absolutely infertile. 

Esther seems to know a lot about plants/poisoning.  Is it possible she's using penny royal as a birth control method because she didn't want to get pregnant by one of her rapists?

[HMFan]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:34 PM, Redrum said:

Right, totally aware of the environmental factor that in no way seems to impact any of these societies.

I'm saying in a low tech society (and Gilead is low tech in this respect) there's no way to be certain a wife is barren unless she's had parts removed. Why wouldn't a man want to keep trying with his wife if there's an outside chance she can have his baby still, but also do the handmaid? If he really wants intimacy with his wife it can be justified.

And why wouldn't wives point to Serena's obvious success as a reason to ignore this rule?

If I remember correctly, in one of the seasons, some of the founders were in the car, NIck was driving and and they were talking about how to get the wives' buy-in for them having sex with other women, and developed the ceremony.

Kind of ironic that when Fred and Serena decide to leave Giliead for Canada she's suddenly able to get pregnant.

I cannot imagine what America did that was so environmentally screwed, unless of course it's waste from all the electric cars we're pushing on people now. 

What year was HMT supposed to start in?

And they say the birthrate is down. That could simply have been by choice or it could have been something the government was doing to control the population from getting any larger.

52 minutes ago, belladonna77 said:

In The Testaments, Hannah/Agnes is treated like any other commander's child and therefore would follow the commander's wife path.  Gilead is still relatively young, so I don't think it's possible for them to have a caste system that differentiates between children taken away from women that were adulterers/whatever and children that were born to handmaids (of which Hannah is kind of both).

Esther seems to know a lot about plants/poisoning.  Is it possible she's using penny royal as a birth control method because she didn't want to get pregnant by one of her rapists?

If there is no fertility testing, it makes one wonder how they know what women (other than those who have already had children before) are fertile.

[HMFan]

2 hours ago, crashdown said:

I agree with the idea that Serena is entranced by power; she wants to be powerful. The wild card here is going to be motherhood and how that might complicate or change things for her. I'm imagining that Serena's becoming a mother (and actually giving birth herself) will change her in some fundamental fashion. This show is VERY big on the transformative powers of maternal love.

I do, because I think that the "Woman's Work" episode in season two was the most poignant one of the series: they worked together, they found common ground, they respected each other, and then Fred was threatened by it and blew it all to bits, possibly irrevocably. But they never stopped having an underlying respect/caring for each other, even at their lowest points, even when they hated each other. I want to see that "Woman's Work" dynamic back in the end by having them working on the same side, even if they're doing it for very different reasons. However, that would be a wildly unpopular decision with viewers, most of whom want to see Serena torn apart by dogs. (Yvonne and Lizzie, from what I've gathered, see their characters the way I see them, but they're not ultimately in charge of the story.

If I don't get my SuperTeam ending, I'd be content with yours. I do think we're going to see the wives rising up this season, and that's why we have a bit of an increase already in Naomi Putnam's character. Serena vs. Gilead IS a much better story right now than what June has going on with them, and I have confidence that we're going to see plenty of it.

In this episode, the men make it clear to her that she was out of line. The word they used was un-moored I believe due to her fragile state, and basically sent her away. Then McKenzie and Blane (despite not being highly regarded among the rank and file) were still able to convince the commanders that broadcasting the funeral would be good for Gilead.

[Cinnabon]

17 minutes ago, HMFan said:

I cannot imagine what America did that was so environmentally screwed, unless of course it's waste from all the electric cars we're pushing on people now. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣. I wish someone would push one on me! I’ll probably be waiting a long while. 

17 minutes ago, HMFan said:

And they say the birthrate is down. That could simply have been by choice or it could have been something the government was doing to control the population from getting any larger.

Like what? Lord knows it wasn’t making sure everyone had comprehensive sex education and access to birth control. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Whimsy]

Please do not discuss the books in the episode threads. 

[NeenerNeener]

17 hours ago, chaifan said:

  I really think that's where this is leading, that Serena will be more or less a cult leader in Canada.

Ugh, that's an even scarier idea than Serena Joy back in Gilead. Corrupting yet another country...

Edited September 16, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[madpsych78]

2 hours ago, HMFan said:

If I remember correctly, in one of the seasons, some of the founders were in the car, NIck was driving and and they were talking about how to get the wives' buy-in for them having sex with other women, and developed the ceremony.

Kind of ironic that when Fred and Serena decide to leave Giliead for Canada she's suddenly able to get pregnant.

I cannot imagine what America did that was so environmentally screwed, unless of course it's waste from all the electric cars we're pushing on people now. 

What year was HMT supposed to start in?

And they say the birthrate is down. That could simply have been by choice or it could have been something the government was doing to control the population from getting any larger.

If there is no fertility testing, it makes one wonder how they know what women (other than those who have already had children before) are fertile.

Common sense (not that Gilead necessarily has this) dictates that one should assume that a woman is fertile unless proven otherwise (i.e., failure to conceive after many years). Even Handmaids with a proven record of fertility are sent to the colonies if they cannot get pregnant after several postings with multiple commanders. 

Going back to Esther, we don't know whether she's fertile or whether she's infertile. But her becoming a wife is not "proof" she is infertile. As I iterated in my previous post, she did not have a Handmaid when she was a wife. But she killed her husband (IIRC) and aided and abetted some Handmaids, and given that there was no proof that she was infertile, then it makes sense that they would assign her as a Handmaid. As Aunt Lydia said Esther is very, very young (i.e., plenty of childbearing years ahead of her). 

[SourK]

re: Serena -- she's my favourite character partly because the actor's giving my favourite performance in the show, and partly because she's positioned in the most interesting way, IMO. Sometimes a villain, sometimes a victim -- lying to herself about her own motivations for the things she does.

21 hours ago, chaifan said:

Now, Commander Lawrence's role in all of this, I just can't figure out and I have no good theories.  I don't know why he would want to go along with this, unless he thinks the publicized funeral will spectacularly backfire and make Gilead look even more batshit crazy to the rest of the world.  But I love that I can't figure Lawrence out.  He's the second best character, next to Serena.

I was also confused, but then I remembered that they had that awkward scene in the church where Serena told them she knew they helped June. That would be a super weak claim without evidence, but I think we're supposed to believe that Lawrence and Nick are getting on board with the funeral arrangements because she's blackmailing them with their secret. She originally told them they needed to make the funeral a big deal if they wanted her to be quiet -- and then they said they couldn't -- and then they spontaneously started to support her in the meeting.

21 hours ago, chaifan said:

My one criticism of this episode is, as almost everyone else has mentioned, they failed to give the viewers a plausible explanation as to how/why Canada would go along with any of this.  Why does she get to leave the country and mingle about Gilead relatively freely?

This seems weird to me, too. The diplomacy around people moving in and out of Gilead seems like it's always just whatever's most convenient to the plot.

[AngelaHunter]

On 9/15/2022 at 4:00 AM, Cinnabon said:

I’m rooting for Gilead to take away her baby and make her a handmaid.

I think this is the only reason I continue to watch - to see Serena get hers. Kept as a broodmare, sitting ignored like a mannequin at her baby shower, having the baby snatched away, having to say "Yes, ma'm" to her new mistress, and being held down and raped once a month would be fitting for the misery and cruelty she inflicted on others. 

I don't think anyone knows she betrayed Fred, and they no doubt desperately want to keep her in Gilead, now that it's  known she's fertile.

MORE abuse of Janine! It reached the point of being depraved and sickening quite some time ago. Enough, already. I don't know what Ester's problem is. Janine was the only person to be kind to her and try to help as much as she was able. Of course Ester is a little (or a lot) nuts which is understandable I guess that revolting chocolate porn game with the dirty old man was the last straw.

Why is it always the middle of winter? Do the powers that be feel that green grass, flowers, and warm weather would take away from the gravitas of their artistic creation and we might forget how very, very serious this is?

[Pepper the Cat]

I was hoping Rita would haul off and slap June saying “ there’s your slap. Happy now?”

[greekmom]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:04 PM, goldilocks said:

Not as clear as all that, unless you mean in offscreen material which shouldn’t apply here. They kept strongly implying that Fred was sterile through the series, then bang! He fathers a child. I keep thinking it will eventually be revealed that Serena slept with someone else. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we find out that it really wasn’t his. 

It is on screen canon as in season 4 episode 7 when June comes to Canada. Serena and Tuello have a conversation about June being back and Serena is worried how this would complicate her case. Tuello says that Fred wants to see Serena and he has a right to the baby as he's the father. Serena replies back: "He was just a sperm donor."  Which flies in the face on Serena's little montage dream of them tangoing as Commander and wife.  Fred was always a tool for Serena.  She wanted a child but she also wanted power.  

I keep forgetting but did anyone notice that they SORAS'd Hannah?  In last season's episode she seemed younger when they had her in the glass chamber to torture June with.  Now it seems she's about 14 or so. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by greekmom
forgot to add

[chaifan]

22 hours ago, HMFan said:

I cannot imagine what America did that was so environmentally screwed, unless of course it's waste from all the electric cars we're pushing on people now. 

***

And they say the birthrate is down. That could simply have been by choice or it could have been something the government was doing to control the population from getting any larger.

The fertility problem is world wide.  In the first season (I think?) they had the delegation from Mexico, and they were discussing ways of increasing fertility/population.  So the cause is not something the US gov't did.  I think it's been implied it was environmental.

[charmed1]

The Gilead scenes are more interesting to me than the Canadian ones. Canada is all about watching Moira, Luke, and Rita be Marthas for June.

And how is Mark walking around Gilead in the dark of night completely unmolested?

[Medicine Crow]

Was the little girl that gave Serena flowers supposed to be Hannah?  TIA.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, charmed1 said:

The Gilead scenes are more interesting to me than the Canadian ones.

Absolutely. I kept thinking, "Oh, good. We're back in Gilead."

"Let's party hard - with Scrabble!" which is just a device so we can get close-ups of June tormented with her memories because June suffered so much more than anyone else. I get distracted wondering how these refugees manage to live in a house most Canadians could never afford to buy or even rent. Do they get everything free, or did all them find really good jobs, which they would need even to share a house and keep stocked in "good red wine"? It's quite possible with my memory problems I missed or forgot the explanation.

[chocolatine]

27 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I get distracted wondering how these refugees manage to live in a house most Canadians could never afford to buy or even rent. Do they get everything free, or did all them find really good jobs, which they would need even to share a house and keep stocked in "good red wine"? It's quite possible with my memory problems I missed or forgot the explanation.

You didn't miss anything. When Moira first arrived in Canada, she moved in with Luke into a small apartment he was sharing with multiple refugees. He didn't have his own room and was sleeping on the living room couch, which I thought was realistic (I myself spent a few years sleeping on a couch when my family and I were refugees in the early 90s.) Then, when June arrived, Moira, Luke, and Nicole were living in this nice single family home, with no explanation how that happened. We haven't seen Luke having any paid employment, and Moira is working with a humanitarian organization, which must be paying very little. And they don't have access to whatever savings or investments they had in the US before Gilead, unless it was in offshore banks, which is very unlikely for middle class people. So this is the typical TV trope of people living in houses they could never afford in real life, which is even more ridiculous in this context.

[AngelaHunter]

8 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

So this is the typical TV trope of people living in houses they could never afford in real life, which is even more ridiculous in this context.

It IS typical and we see it all the time. It may be an accepted trope but it bugs no less. Maybe I'm just nit-picky. The house they are in would be maybe 2 million dollars in Toronto. My friends just sold their 1960-era house for 1.2 and that wasn't even in Toronto proper. Emily's girlfriend also lives in a 2-story, 2 million dollar house by herself. Food stamps and welfare just won't cut it and neither will a single income from most jobs.

I thought Moira was volunteering, but I could be wrong. Luke seems to do little but hang around, go to protest marches (in the country that is keeping him in fine style!), drink, and sit in bars. Maybe this is part of the reason I prefer the fictional Gilead scenes.

I should probably just go with it and stop thinking so much about things, such as a prisoner like Serena getting a private jet ride with a paid companion (who acts like her humble servant) to go and have a state funeral for her criminal husband. Hey, it's just TV.

[Redrum]

6 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Emily's girlfriend also lives in a 2-story, 2 million dollar house by herself.

Emily's wife was able to leave Gilead years earlier than any of these other people and is a Canadian citizen so her income/investments may not have been confiscated. I know its a trope etc but Emily's wife wasn't exactly a refugee.

Also I thought Luke was more active in some political activist organizations against Gilead and might be pulling in a salary And I recall Rita being encouraged to do some sort of speaking event by Moira and Luke to bring in some bucks for her to live on. 

Luke has been in Canada for what? Seven years? I could buy that he's managed to find a decent job in that amount of time that we don't see because its not interesting. 

[Kel Varnsen]

I have no idea why the US/the CIA guy would even consider letting Serena go back to Gilead. And when she gets their what is his plan if she just says she is not going back or those security guys say she is staying. What can they do about it, they are already being sanctioned and they are already at war with Gilead which they don't seem to be winning. 

Also why the hell is up with that Putnam guy that he is up for a brand new handmaid? How does he still have that power, the other commanders hate him enough that they chopped off his arm. Plus he already got a kid. At best shouldn't he be getting an older handmaid on her second or third placing?

[txhorns79]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:33 AM, crashdown said:

I do, because I think that the "Woman's Work" episode in season two was the most poignant one of the series: they worked together, they found common ground, they respected each other, and then Fred was threatened by it and blew it all to bits, possibly irrevocably. But they never stopped having an underlying respect/caring for each other, even at their lowest points, even when they hated each other. I want to see that "Woman's Work" dynamic back in the end by having them working on the same side, even if they're doing it for very different reasons.

I viewed it more as a situation where June was allowed certain privileges in working with Serena, but Serena maintained the power and ability to take it all away whenever she pleased.  They did get along, but it was all at Serena's pleasure.  And obviously, June was only there to begin with because Serena and Fred had helped to create a society that enslaved June.   

When Moira was asking June what was wrong with her when June was questioning Rita about being slapped at the Waterford house, I am surprised she doesn't already know what's wrong with June.  How it is that Luke and Moira aren't ever suggesting to June that she get some one on one professional help?

And finally, I feel like half the time the show is just going to devolve into June and Serena thinking up ways to troll one another.  June sent Fred's finger, Serena gets her back with Hannah.   

[SourK]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

You didn't miss anything. When Moira first arrived in Canada, she moved in with Luke into a small apartment he was sharing with multiple refugees. He didn't have his own room and was sleeping on the living room couch, which I thought was realistic (I myself spent a few years sleeping on a couch when my family and I were refugees in the early 90s.) Then, when June arrived, Moira, Luke, and Nicole were living in this nice single family home, with no explanation how that happened... So this is the typical TV trope of people living in houses they could never afford in real life, which is even more ridiculous in this context.

The context makes it ridiculous, and also I think the housing crisis IRL makes it more annoying than it used to be.

I feel like they're probably trying to set things up so that June is choosing between returning to the "normal" domestic life she had with Luke vs swan-diving into her PTSD and fixating on Gilead, so setting them up in a middle class single-family home with stable finances, etc is either consciously or unconsciously part of that. But it's out of touch with the fact that fewer and fewer people can afford a life like that, and that having these things increasingly makes you look wealthy.

[Redrum]

1 minute ago, SourK said:

The context makes it ridiculous, and also I think the housing crisis IRL makes it more annoying than it used to be.

In a world with a dramatically dropping population that we seem to be close to ten, possibly fifteen years into at this point judging by flashbacks in earlier seasons, housing actually would get more affordable. 

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I viewed it more as a situation where June was allowed certain privileges in working with Serena, but Serena maintained the power and ability to take it all away whenever she pleased.  They did get along, but it was all at Serena's pleasure.  And obviously, June was only there to begin with because Serena and Fred had helped to create a society that enslaved June.

That is all completely true. Now that the power dynamics have shifted, their relationship will either evolve into something new, or they'll remain bitter enemies. But whatever happens, it can no longer be one of Serena acting decently when she's in a good mood and abusive when she isn't. 

Apropos of this, here's a quotation from an interview with Elizabeth Moss that sheds some light on the way that she and Yvonne see their two characters. I thought it was pretty fascinating:

Quote

Clearly, I'm very much on board for this season’s promise to zero in on the central conflict with Serena. I understand that you and Yvonne refer to June and Serena as ‘Juliet & Juliet’. Is that that correct?

That’s right, we do.

Can you elaborate a little on that?

Yeah. It's hard for people to maybe understand, but we have such love for these characters and this inside knowledge of these women and who they are. And what we mean by that is that there is this bond between them. It is a bond of conflict and trauma and desires and love. But [they are] on two opposite sides of how to go about that. You know, they have the same needs. They have the same wants. They have the same goals, and that really bonds them.

So we think that they are the great love story of the show. They/we had this fantastic scene in season three, that was in front of the Lincoln Memorial, that we call their Break-Up scene. Like, that's the scene where they broke up. You know, that's where June believed that Serena would do the right thing. And June believed in Serena, and then Serena broke her heart, and they haven't really recovered from that.

Sure, and I mean, when Fred was 'indisposed', you know, they were very productive together!  They have real potential to be formidable those two!

[Laughs] Great way of putting that! [Laughs] Yes, they tried, they came together. They tried to work to make Gilead a better place. Serena seemed to be coming to a place of wanting women to have more rights in Gilead. And then she ultimately failed June, and that broke June's heart, it Broke. June's. Heart. But regardless, I think that she—[pause] and this is not in the first two episodes [laughs],  this is later!—I think she regardless, wants to believe that Serena will do the right thing, you know, she wants to believe that she will find her heart and find the good side of herself.

So however all this shakes down, at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that the actors themselves see these characters the way I see them!

[Anela]

13 hours ago, greekmom said:

It is on screen canon as in season 4 episode 7 when June comes to Canada. Serena and Tuello have a conversation about June being back and Serena is worried how this would complicate her case. Tuello says that Fred wants to see Serena and he has a right to the baby as he's the father. Serena replies back: "He was just a sperm donor."  Which flies in the face on Serena's little montage dream of them tangoing as Commander and wife.  Fred was always a tool for Serena.  She wanted a child but she also wanted power.  

I keep forgetting but did anyone notice that they SORAS'd Hannah?  In last season's episode she seemed younger when they had her in the glass chamber to torture June with.  Now it seems she's about 14 or so. 

I think the actress just had a growth spurt. 

Re: Serena and Tuello in Gilead. That whole funeral show, and Serena being escorted by him, just reminds me of when shows have something like a prom episode. That may sound absurd, but it puts them in a different environment, together. The whole thing is absurd, she's a political prisoner, and shouldn't be walking around giving orders anywhere. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Anela

[aghst]

Did Serena ask for Hanna to be prominently featured in the funeral?

Why would they feature the funeral live in the middle of Toronto like that?  Maybe show some clips later, that’s about it.

I doubt the Queens funeral on Monday will be so prominent in the US.  They may show it live but would they do it in Times Square, with tight close ups of people?

Of course it’s for drama, June was starting to feel she could move on with life in Canada because of that ballet performance.  But not only do they literally throw Serena in her face, it’s Hanna taking part in the funeral of her rapist.

So June will dig that gun back up, escape into Gilead.

I’m surprised Tupelo went down there.  He represents the US in exile, which is at war with Gilead.  If they imprisoned or killed him, what is US or Canada going to do?  If they kept Serena from returning to Canada, what are they going to do aBout it?

Serena is still a prisoner, up for charges at the ICC?  But sHe demands to take Fred back to Gilead for a state funeral and they give her a private jet?

WTH!

I can buy that June and some of the former handmaids are angry, wanting revenge, while others like Moira or even Rita just want to move on with their lives, deal with the PTSD, be supported by loved ones as well as support them.

But they’re going to return to the teeth of the lions den to play out tHeir revenge fantasy?

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm confused.  Serena lured Fred to Canada and helped them capture him.  Wouldn't Gilead view her as a traitor?  Why would she go back there?  Now he has no husband and is about the give birth to a valuable child.  If they don't punish her for betraying Fred, it seems like they would give her to another commander as a wife or handmaid. 

I don't get any of this either. I never understood why Serena would turn in Fred and give up her own life and freedom just for the chance of seeing Nicole. I never bought that. And she has been in custody ever since. Both she and Fred knew Gilead would execute him if he ever returned there since he cooperated with Canadian authorities and gave them Gilead intel. Why on earth wouldn't Serena think the same fate awaited her? Women are nothing more than appendages of their husbands in Gilead society. Regardless of what they believe her involvement was, she's be an outcast at the very least. Not welcomed back with open arms. Finally, it serves Canada no purpose whatsoever to allow her to take Fred back to Gilead for a funeral. 

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Tuello being able to go into Gilead with her without immediately being captured as an enemy of the state, 

I kept wondering the same thing. All I can think of is that there is some sort of diplomatic agreement between Gilead and Canada to allow representatives entry and exits for specific purposes. But it's A LOT of hand-waving.

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Why is it always the middle of winter? Do the powers that be feel that green grass, flowers, and warm weather would take away from the gravitas of their artistic creation and we might forget how very, very serious this is?

Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is, purely an aesthetic thing. 

[aghst]

Because they want to find a way to get June and Serena back to Gilead.

Where you have the revenge tour, if not this season, then the final season.

So it doesn't matter what happened before, they will find a way to un-do all the events which occurred ih past seasons.

Most handmaids who escape wouldn't want to be anywhere near Gilead again, but they're going to go back?  Yeah whatever.

[Redrum]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't get any of this either. I never understood why Serena would turn in Fred and give up her own life and freedom just for the chance of seeing Nicole.

I think she was originally promised more. She originally had a sweet deal where she would get off scot free basically. Nicole was kinda sorta legally maybe her child as she was the adoptive mother and the baby was stolen from her. I mean, Serena's an awful awful person and basically forced June to have a semi-rape baby (I say semi because Nick and June were in a stockholm syndrome romance) BUT.... she probably has as much legal claim to that child as Luke - no biological attachment, raising his wife's child she had with some other guy, without her. Now would Serena ever have gotten custody? I dunno but frankly the Canadian government has made a lot of weird choices here. 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Both she and Fred knew Gilead would execute him if he ever returned there since he cooperated with Canadian authorities and gave them Gilead intel. Why on earth wouldn't Serena think the same fate awaited her?

Delusion and vastly ignoring the situation. I'm also gonna say lazy writing. There's no way, as all sides were previously depicted, that Serena wasn't outed to the Gilead government as the reason Fred was captured.  This would be done to better control Serena in Canada/US control. There's no way that Serena as a wife who betrayed her husband, wouldn't be forced to bear her child and then have it ripped away.  Frankly I assume she would be punished publicly.

This funeral nonsense also completely ignores the prior plot - that Fred was being exchanged for 23 women and  Gilead can rightly say that Canada/The US completely reneged on the deal..

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I kept wondering the same thing. All I can think of is that there is some sort of diplomatic agreement between Gilead and Canada to allow representatives entry and exits for specific purposes. But it's A LOT of hand-waving.

It has been done although not with US agents like Tuello. Fred and Serena did originally visit Canada as diplomats. The Warrens were allowed as well. Gilead accepted diplomats including women, from Mexico and Switzerland. I would say there just seems to be no purpose to allowing Serena entry to Gilead. Fred's body can be shipped with no fuss. Fred can then have a state funeral. 

This is all to get Serena and possibly others back into Gilead because people living normal lives in Toronto is basically a Canadian version PTSD Friends.  Realistically Serena should not be out of protective custody and June should be on a 72 hour psych hold at least for confessing to murdering Fred... not attending the ballet. 

[Cinnabon]

Since Luke was still married to June when Nichole was born, many jurisdictions would consider him her legal father. And June, as the bio mother, wanted Luke to raise her. Serena had no legal claim to that baby.

[circumvent]

I have long given up on this series, I hate watch for the most part and I don't try to make sense of anything that was laid out on season one, which was pretty much what is in the original book. I don't like anyone, except for Nichole and only because she is scarce and cannot speak.

Having said that, the cinematography of this episode, the montage of the ballet/funeral (which was a ballet in itself) was really well done. Since I don't care for the plots and absurdities, I very much enjoyed watching that. The colors, the light, the snow flakes, the choreography (of the funeral), everything was really well done. It wonder who was the cinematographer. The visual was fantastic!

[Redrum]

8 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Since Luke was still married to June when Nichole was born, many jurisdictions would consider him her legal father. And June, as the bio mother, wanted Luke to raise her

Sure. But June was pretty vocal to a lot of people in official places that her baby was fathered by Luke and since she'd been seperated from Luke for actual years and the baby was born in a different country - its really hard to argue.

11 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Serena had no legal claim to that baby.

In the US, a country that no longer exists in this setting. Under Gilead law she's clearly the legal mom and Canada/Remnants of the US seem to be willing to allow her access to the child if it gets them what they want from her. 

Now, morally of course, Serena is a monster and has no right to Nicole. The writers are clearly dropping any Nicole issues in favor of Serena's baby in her belly (who I genuinely hope is named Harrison)  but in seasons past, Serena's grabbiness for Nicole was more than tolerated by the Canadians. 

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, aghst said:

Why would they feature the funeral live in the middle of Toronto like that?  Maybe show some clips later, that’s about it.

That was so weird. Especially since it is not like Fred was the big boss of Gilead he was one of dozens (hundreds?) of commanders. Which is one other weird thing about this show, if every important dude is a commander, who is actually in command?

[crashdown]

5 hours ago, Redrum said:

This funeral nonsense also completely ignores the prior plot - that Fred was being exchanged for 23 women and  Gilead can rightly say that Canada/The US completely reneged on the deal..

No, they didn't. Fred *was* exchanged for the 23 women: he was delivered to Gilead, and the Eyes, as official representatives of Gilead, promptly took him into custody. (I believe that Nick told them that at the border the Eyes have jurisdiction, which caused Joseph to shrug and say to Fred, "Looks like he has us over a barrel.") Nick delivered Fred to No Man's Land in his capacity as an Eye, even though it obviously was at June's behest.

[Redrum]

6 minutes ago, crashdown said:

(I believe that Nick told them that at the border the Eyes have jurisdiction, which caused Joseph to shrug and say to Fred, "Looks like he has us over a barrel.") Nick delivered Fred to No Man's Land in his capacity as an Eye, even though it obviously was at June's behest.

I genuinely doubt Nick had the authority to do that without being soon executed. It can be suggested that Gilead might take the position that Fred was not properly handed off to people with genuine authority.

I mean, there were a lot of problems with this whole scenario.

[crashdown]

13 minutes ago, Redrum said:

genuinely doubt Nick had the authority to do that without being soon executed. It can be suggested that Gilead might take the position that Fred was not properly handed off to people with genuine authority.

It wasn't just Nick--it was a whole truck full of Eyes. I think we can take the statement that the Eyes have jurisdiction at face value. They seem to be as close to "genuine authority" as anything we find in Gilead. But that said, I'm not defending the world-building of Gilead's command structure, which is whack.

[chocolatine]

My understanding was that the Gilead leadership had already voted/decided that Fred would be executed upon his return to Gilead, and Nick was tasked with carrying it out (he seems to be the one used for dirty work, since he was also ordered to bomb Chicago last season). He probably wasn't given any specifics as to the manner of the execution, just that it had to be done, so the fact that it was done means Nick did his job and doesn't have to worry about repercussions.

[Redrum]

I mean, now I am harping so feel free to ignore but I somehow doubt Gilead leadership expected Nick to have a group of rogue handmaid refugees tear Fred apart by hand and teeth. ;)

[chocolatine]

18 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I mean, now I am harping so feel free to ignore but I somehow doubt Gilead leadership expected Nick to have a group of rogue handmaid refugees tear Fred apart by hand and teeth. ;)

No, of course not. I think they just told Nick that Fred had to die, and left the details up to him.

[kassa]

17 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That was so weird. Especially since it is not like Fred was the big boss of Gilead he was one of dozens (hundreds?) of commanders. Which is one other weird thing about this show, if every important dude is a commander, who is actually in command?

I thought it was implied that he and Serena were central to the whole foundation, but perhaps they were more the public relations/media/recruitment arm of getting the ball rolling, selling the concept, making it unthreatening, and lulling the public into passivity until it was too late and once the career politicians centralized control their particular contributions were obsolete. Certainly hers. 

16 hours ago, Redrum said:

I genuinely doubt Nick had the authority to do that without being soon executed. It can be suggested that Gilead might take the position that Fred was not properly handed off to people with genuine authority.

I mean, there were a lot of problems with this whole scenario.

I think in authoritarian regimes the secret police pretty much have carte blanche, because who's going to call them out on the Senate floor, or whatever passes for such in Gilead? Best to just... let it go. Especially if they were going to kill Waterford anyway.  

[Redrum]

17 minutes ago, kassa said:

I think in authoritarian regimes the secret police pretty much have carte blanche, because who's going to call them out on the Senate floor, or whatever passes for such in Gilead? Best to just... let it go. Especially if they were going to kill Waterford anyway.

I get you, I just think there are... difficulties? In condoning the Eyes taking Fred to No Man's Land and letting escaped  Handmaids rip him apart. It just feels like a bad press thing. 

[circumvent]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:30 AM, aghst said:

Did Serena ask for Hanna to be prominently featured in the funeral?

Why would they feature the funeral live in the middle of Toronto like that?  Maybe show some clips later, that’s about it.

I doubt the Queens funeral on Monday will be so prominent in the US.  They may show it live but would they do it in Times Square, with tight close ups of people?

Of course it’s for drama, June was starting to feel she could move on with life in Canada because of that ballet performance.  But not only do they literally throw Serena in her face, it’s Hanna taking part in the funeral of her rapist.

So June will dig that gun back up, escape into Gilead.

I’m surprised Tupelo went down there.  He represents the US in exile, which is at war with Gilead.  If they imprisoned or killed him, what is US or Canada going to do?  If they kept Serena from returning to Canada, what are they going to do aBout it?

Serena is still a prisoner, up for charges at the ICC?  But sHe demands to take Fred back to Gilead for a state funeral and they give her a private jet?

WTH!

I can buy that June and some of the former handmaids are angry, wanting revenge, while others like Moira or even Rita just want to move on with their lives, deal with the PTSD, be supported by loved ones as well as support them.

But they’re going to return to the teeth of the lions den to play out tHeir revenge fantasy?

Your observations are everything that is wrong with this mess of a writing. Serena is a prisoner but demands to go back to the country she betrayed, and gets her wishes, tagging along the "enemy" and will all pomp and circumstance. Tuello is a wimp acting as a diplomat but without any skills. Serena has him wrapped around her missed little finger. 

Speaking of little finger, she dared to read and lost a finger. Now she waltz into a room full of men and all she gets is a "wait outside" warning. 

Why Canada would stop all programing to show a parade for a dead dictator is beyond me. The queen is not even comparable (I don't know if they showed anything live but we are weird - celebrate the 4th of July and then mourn a queen with flags at half staff and all. Pretty pathetic and contradictory. But thinking and pondering is not our forte). The whole thing is like showing the funeral of some assistant to the maligned Putin on TV, on the big screens in the Canadian Times Square. It makes little sense. Who cares?

Having Hannah there and Luke apparently immediately recognizing her is weird. He hasn't seen her in years, right? How did he know? And how die Serena knew the whole circus would be in every channel all over the word, so June would see it? 

Those writers make stuff up as they go, continuity and sense be damned

[crashdown]

16 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Speaking of little finger, she dared to read and lost a finger. Now she waltz into a room full of men and all she gets is a "wait outside" warning. 

She didn't READ, is the point. Waltzing into a room full of men is not a punishable crime in and of itself. But speaking of that waltzing, they did a great job of showing Serena's own PTSD on entering that room--she has traumas of her own, even if they're not anywhere close to June's demons.

[greekmom]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:04 PM, madpsych78 said:

Going back to Esther, we don't know whether she's fertile or whether she's infertile. But her becoming a wife is not "proof" she is infertile. As I iterated in my previous post, she did not have a Handmaid when she was a wife. But she killed her husband (IIRC) and aided and abetted some Handmaids, and given that there was no proof that she was infertile, then it makes sense that they would assign her as a Handmaid. As Aunt Lydia said Esther is very, very young (i.e., plenty of childbearing years ahead of her). 

Esther was constantly put up by her Commander husband to be passed around and raped by other Commanders. I wonder if she knew enough herbal medicines to use to not get pregnant or she could just be infertile.

On 9/18/2022 at 6:35 PM, Redrum said:

Sure. But June was pretty vocal to a lot of people in official places that her baby was fathered by Luke and since she'd been seperated from Luke for actual years and the baby was born in a different country - its really hard to argue.

In the US, a country that no longer exists in this setting. Under Gilead law she's clearly the legal mom and Canada/Remnants of the US seem to be willing to allow her access to the child if it gets them what they want from her. 

Now, morally of course, Serena is a monster and has no right to Nicole. The writers are clearly dropping any Nicole issues in favor of Serena's baby in her belly (who I genuinely hope is named Harrison)  but in seasons past, Serena's grabbiness for Nicole was more than tolerated by the Canadians. 

Nicole was deemed "abandoned" in a sort of way by the mother (yeah right) so that is why Serena was given a bit of a free access to Nicole until it was revealed by Fred that Serena assistant in a non sanctioned religious raping of June.  After that, she was in hot water and no more access to baby Nicole. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:20 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Absolutely. I kept thinking, "Oh, good. We're back in Gilead."

"Let's party hard - with Scrabble!" which is just a device so we can get close-ups of June tormented with her memories because June suffered so much more than anyone else. I get distracted wondering how these refugees manage to live in a house most Canadians could never afford to buy or even rent. Do they get everything free, or did all them find really good jobs, which they would need even to share a house and keep stocked in "good red wine"? It's quite possible with my memory problems I missed or forgot the explanation.

The flight that saved all those kids should have made June a celebrity in Canada the leftover US. I can see tons of people wanting to give her, and by extension Luke/Moira money, either for appearances, or just to help take care of her daughter. Imagine what a Like/June go fund me page would look like?

[Haleth]

Serena is probably too old to be shunted off as a handmaid.  She was dang lucky to get pregnant at her age but what commander's wife is going to want to take a chance on someone her age?  More likely she'd end up in the colonies.

We don't know the sex of the baby, do we?  Serena said son, June hopes the baby will become a handmaid.  Guess we'll find out soon.

[Redrum]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Serena is probably too old to be shunted off as a handmaid.  She was dang lucky to get pregnant at her age but what commander's wife is going to want to take a chance on someone her age?  More likely she'd end up in the colonies.

This is honestly a problem for June as well. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Serena is probably too old to be shunted off as a handmaid.  She was dang lucky to get pregnant at her age but what commander's wife is going to want to take a chance on someone her age?  More likely she'd end up in the colonies.

On the other hand Serena's mom is somehow single (I assume that her husband/Serena's dad died), but she somehow still has a ton of freedom and a comparable level of status to a Commander's wife. So if they didn't expect her to get married right away maybe there is a chance for Serena, if they blame the crimes on Fred.