S05.E01: Morning

[Scarlett45]

Quote

After getting rid of Commander Waterford, June continues her fight to find her daughter Hannah as Gilead's influence expands in Canada.

Air Date: September 14, 2022

[AntFTW]

Of course they're doing the selfish thing and only giving us two episodes instead of three... 😤

[PurpleTentacle]

Didn't they imply or outright say last season that June had crossed a line that made her unable to ever be with her family again? Well they retconed that really flippin quickly.

And saying that she thought she'd be in jail. Yeah, sure. It was clear she was going to go on a murder spree. Man they walked that one back hard.

Speaking of which, how is she not in jail? The american guy said it himself, the territory is disputed. Both Canada and Gillead lay claim to it. Which means Canada should very much prosecute her for what she did there. In not doing so, they basically say that they have no claim to that land and it is therefore Gilead's.

I guess these writers will continue to give me headaches for years to come.

[jenn31]

“No Man’s Land”... that’s where this show belongs. It’s laughable at this point. June’s plot armour is so thick, it’s a wonder she can move at all. 

[Whimsy]

I know it's tempting to talk about both episodes if you binged, but only discussion about episode 1 should be made here. Posts with anything related to episode 2 will be removed.

[crashdown]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Didn't they imply or outright say last season that June had crossed a line that made her unable to ever be with her family again? Well they retconed that really flippin quickly.

And saying that she thought she'd be in jail. Yeah, sure. It was clear she was going to go on a murder spree. Man they walked that one back hard.

No, they never said that. They said that June THOUGHT that, not that it was true. Nothing was walked back.

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Speaking of which, how is she not in jail? The american guy said it himself, the territory is disputed. Both Canada and Gillead lay claim to it. Which means Canada should very much prosecute her for what she did there. In not doing so, they basically say that they have no claim to that land and it is therefore Gilead's.

No, that's not how it works. The land belongs to NEITHER Canada nor to Gilead--that's what makes it "No Man's Land." The laws of Canada do not apply in land that Canada does not control.

[Redrum]

34 minutes ago, crashdown said:

No, that's not how it works. The land belongs to NEITHER Canada nor to Gilead--that's what makes it "No Man's Land." The laws of Canada do not apply in land that Canada does not control.

Dont get me started on how Gilead has the border locked up so tight there's almost no hope of escape and Canada has armed border guards and fences too... but there's a national park sized chunk of land where everyone can run free and commit wanton acts of murder. 

I mean, I don't mind handwaving at stuff but really....

[crashdown]

37 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Dont get me started on how Gilead has the border locked up so tight there's almost no hope of escape and Canada has armed border guards and fences too... but there's a national park sized chunk of land where everyone can run free and commit wanton acts of murder. 

I mean, I don't mind handwaving at stuff but really....

Oh, I know--the border situation has always been crazy. What are these diners, for instance, where commanders and Americans can meet and chat? But I think there's no reason that we can't accept the concept of a disputed territory in which neither Gilead nor Canada represents the law of the land. There have been such places historically--here's a snippet that I found about one of them:

Quote

The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Transjordan were signed in Rhodes with the help of UN mediation on 3 April 1949. Armistice lines were determined in November 1948. Between the lines territory was left that was defined as no man's land. Such areas existed in Jerusalem in the area between the western and southern parts of the Walls of Jerusalem and Musrara. A strip of land north and south of Latrun was also known as "no man's land" because it was not controlled by either Israel or Jordan between 1948 and 1967.

[MichaelaRae]

Well, well, well, Agent Tuello - I'm still not sure you see entirely through Serena, but I like you a bit more now for what you said to June.

[Helena Dax]

1 hour ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, well, well, Agent Tuello - I'm still not sure you see entirely through Serena, but I like you a bit more now for what you said to June.

Yeah, that's the only thing I really liked about this episode. Not that I hated the rest, but it was a bit boring, tbh.

Is Tuello (or the US government) really going to let Serena go back to Gilead? It seems very stupid. 

So Nick is married again and his new wife seems to sympathize with June's situation! That's interesting and I wonder if we'll learn a bit more about her.

[sadie]

I’m sorry but I am just hating this. No one around June (except maybe Moira) notices this woman needs deep deep psychological help. Luke is just all “tsk tsk tsk Moira, let’s not address the fact June is obviously disturbed, let’s just be happy she’s home”. I mean it’s like Charles Manson shows up for Christmas dinner and everyone is just like “chill everyone let’s just rejoice Charlie is home”. Wtf

and was I the only person screaming at the television when Serena was all “does this country not have any decency” that agent Tullo wasn’t like “ummm Serena are you forgetting that whole hold a woman against her will, beat her, and rape her thing, maybe you should climb down off your high horse.” Wtf

And Serena all of a sudden romanticizing about her beautiful romance with Fred, doing the tango was a complete WTF moment.

The only one that seemed to have her senses was Rory Gilmore’s girlfriend who was like “get your crazy ass off my lawn and no I’m not telling you anything ever”

and the freedom fighters in the diner slowly realizing that the only person June cares about is June, should’ve just beat the crap out of her and moved on with their day. Funny how the only person‘s vendetta that matters to June is June’s and everybody else’s she could not give a shit about. Big surprise.

Are we literally supposed to hate everyone?

How sad that what could have evolved into a show about strong women coming to grips with what had become of their lives is just one ridiculous plot point after another and Elizabeth Moss just trying to cram in as many muggable moments as she can for her Emmy reel.

I wanted to watch bit eps tonight but I think I need a breather here. 

[greekmom]

So much to unpack.
First June. Gilead made June. The Waterfords made June.  No other circumstances made June the way she is. I don't blame her one bit for what she did and what she is going through.  June wasn't a monster pre-Gilead like a Ted Bundy or a Charles Manson. She was just a woman married to some dude who was previously married and with whom had a child. Then they took her child away, enslaved her, raped her, tortured her. Took her country away. Took her identity away. Nah. Fred deserved what he got and June deserved to dole out the punishment since Canada wouldn't do it and what is left of the American gov't wouldn't do it.  The fact that the other women want her to help them "get theirs" is not logical unless their tormentors came to Canada or close enough to the boarder that they can repeat what they did to Fred. June realizes this. The other women don't.
Serena is an idiot. Near the end she barely couldn't stand Fred and only was with him to serve her best interest. I guess though, my bastard is my bastard and he's my problem to deal with.  Serena is a strong woman who likes her independence. I can't understand why she is so pro-Gilead. It's not like they are giving her any power.  Fred was basically her puppet. I found the tango scene romantized of her relationship with Fred. The fact she is upset that June won't get hers is laughable. I mean Serena is a domestic terrorist, a rapist and a slave owner. To start with. When is she going to get hers? 
I don't buy that Emily would go back to killed Lydia.  I wish they would have given her a better send off to Montreal and that she needed time away. 
I laughed my ass off at the $88 fine.
The scene outside the morgue with he people and the candles was absolutely stupid.  These people wanted to run the Waterfords out of Canada back in which season was it?!? I honestly don't buy it that people can forget what the Waterfords are what they did and what Gilead represents and be "with Serena".
I don't buy also how Serena wants to take him back to Gilead to bury after earlier she just said to Tuello "how could you send him back there!".  I don't know. I think that the show may have jumped the blessed be thy fruit shark.
 

[MichaelaRae]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

and the freedom fighters in the diner slowly realizing that the only person June cares about is June, should’ve just beat the crap out of her and moved on with their day. Funny how the only person‘s vendetta that matters to June is June’s and everybody else’s she could not give a shit about. Big surprise.

I don’t know…we haven’t seen any evidence that June said anything more than “Hey, I’ve got connections that are giving me access to my former commander so I can salvage him - wanna come? Blood sport will be fun!” They all seemed PRETTY HAPPY to be a part of it even if it wasn’t THEIR commander/aunt/wife, per the last episode of last season. They weren’t begrudging it. We have no evidence that she said “and then we’ll go after all of yours, so do this for me and then I’ll make it happen for you.” My feeling is that June was like “hey, fellow former Handmaids, Marthas, Econowives, whatever - got a shot at a salvaging for a mother fucker who really deserves it? Wanna come?” Yes, June’s actions are complicated and complex and I have all kinds of pro/con feelings about it, but I also never saw anything in last season or this episode that makes me think June promised them their own reckoning if they helped her get hers. She had the only connection to getting Fred into No Man’s Land. She didn’t NEED them to get him killed. She invited them along because she thought they might want in, but she didn’t NEED them to get Fred killed. She wouldn’t have had to promise anything. None of those other women had the connections she did - it’s not fair but yeah, June had connections they didn’t and she used them to safely carry out her vengeance. June risked a lot less due to her connections to salvage Fred than these women who are now all “we’ve got guns, let’s go invade GILEAD (NOT No Man’s Land) and fuck some shit up - hey, what do you MEAN you don’t want to plunge hell for leather into an OBVIOUS death trap, that OBVIOUSLY makes you a hypocrite even though you didn’t invade Gilead to get yours because you’re not that stupid.”

Edited September 14, 2022 by MichaelaRae

[steph369]

The backtracking is ridiculous. Alexis Bloedel decides to leave so they have Emily go back to Gilead? She would never do that! Not after what she went through to get out of there and being relieved to be out. And she wouldn’t leave her family. Not Emily. Incredibly pathetic writing. They should have just kept her out of the picture for now. Even having her kill herself would be more understandable. I guess it at least leaves the door open for her to return if this drudgery of a series keeps going. 

[LavenderSunset]

37 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The fact that the other women want her to help them "get theirs" is not logical unless their tormentors came to Canada or close enough to the boarder that they can repeat what they did to Fred. June realizes this. The other women don't.

Yeah, June should say "Hey, let me know when you get your tormentor to no-mand's land and I'll be there!"

[goldilocks]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

The fact that the other women want her to help them "get theirs" is not logical unless their tormentors came to Canada or close enough to the boarder that they can repeat what they did to Fred. June realizes this. The other women don't.

Yes, but in a way, June created those women. No, they’re not taking all things into consideration, but June should have guided them better, instead of only getting them all riled up (when helping her). It IS true that they risked a lot to have her get her vengeance. But I’m not surprised June wouldn’t take the time to explain it all to them and make them understand and offer to think up another solution. She only expends energy to get what she needs. Always has. 

37 minutes ago, LavenderSunset said:

Yeah, June should say "Hey, let me know when you get your tormentor to no-mand's land and I'll be there!"

Except she won’t. 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

So much to unpack.
First June. Gilead made June. The Waterfords made June.  No other circumstances made June the way she is. I don't blame her one bit for what she did and what she is going through.  June wasn't a monster pre-Gilead like a Ted Bundy or a Charles Manson. She was just a woman married to some dude who was previously married and with whom had a child. Then they took her child away, enslaved her, raped her, tortured her. Took her country away. Took her identity away. Nah. Fred deserved what he got and June deserved to dole out the punishment since Canada wouldn't do it and what is left of the American gov't wouldn't do it.  The fact that the other women want her to help them "get theirs" is not logical unless their tormentors came to Canada or close enough to the boarder that they can repeat what they did to Fred. June realizes this. The other women don't.
Serena is an idiot. Near the end she barely couldn't stand Fred and only was with him to serve her best interest. I guess though, my bastard is my bastard and he's my problem to deal with.  Serena is a strong woman who likes her independence. I can't understand why she is so pro-Gilead. It's not like they are giving her any power.  Fred was basically her puppet. I found the tango scene romantized of her relationship with Fred. The fact she is upset that June won't get hers is laughable. I mean Serena is a domestic terrorist, a rapist and a slave owner. To start with. When is she going to get hers? 
I don't buy that Emily would go back to killed Lydia.  I wish they would have given her a better send off to Montreal and that she needed time away. 
I laughed my ass off at the $88 fine.
The scene outside the morgue with he people and the candles was absolutely stupid.  These people wanted to run the Waterfords out of Canada back in which season was it?!? I honestly don't buy it that people can forget what the Waterfords are what they did and what Gilead represents and be "with Serena".
I don't buy also how Serena wants to take him back to Gilead to bury after earlier she just said to Tuello "how could you send him back there!".  I don't know. I think that the show may have jumped the blessed be thy fruit shark.
 

I totally agree with you. I’ve been watching this, and thinking about the people who were appalled by what they did. Four seasons of girls and women being tortured, raped, and murdered, and their killing Fred was just going too far.  They all obviously need more help than they’re getting, but I liked Tuello here.  

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, sadie said:

No one around June (except maybe Moira) notices this woman needs deep deep psychological help.

That's probably the craziest part of this episode.  It's Canada for fuck's sake!  I'd think the police would have a dozen social workers lined up for June, if not putting her in a mandatory psych hold for 48 hours.  June needs some serious psychological help, and it would be nice to see her working things out with a qualified therapist.  It wouldn't make for exciting TV, but then neither does looking at close ups of June's angsty face for 1/3 of an episode.

I'm not really bothered by a lot of the other stuff mentioned here so far.  I think the other refugees are 100% batshit crazy to want to go back to Gilead and to expect June (or anyone else) to go back with them.  I mean, when out crazy June, that's pretty damn crazy.  I think Serena is pretty consistent with being Serena.  Yeah, she wasn't a big Fred fan just a few episodes back, but his death makes her a grieving widow, so she'll ride that for all it's worth.  They have shown that there is a pro-Gilead faction in Canada before, so the vigil outside the morgue also makes sense.  (How they all knew Fred and Serena were there is another question, considering Canada is being so protective of Serena.)  I took that end scene as Serena realizing how much power she can get out of Fred's death, that to some she's a martyr's widow, and she sees that as a way back to her prior life in the spotlight.  I don't quite understand if she wants Fred buried "properly" in Canada or to go back to Gilead, though.  I can't imagine her wanting to go back. 

8 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, well, well, Agent Tuello - I'm still not sure you see entirely through Serena, but I like you a bit more now for what you said to June.

That last line was my favorite part of the episode.  I do wish we could get into Tuello's head a bit more, and know more of what he really thinks about Serena.  Based on last season, I really don't think he's buying Serena's victim schtick, but he has such a poker face with everyone, it's really hard to tell. 

I actually liked June turning herself in, just to be told, nah, you're good.  I accept the "no mans land" as what they say it is - neither Canada nor US/Gilead, so Canada has no reason to want to pursue a murder there.  I'm sure they really don't want to pursue Fred's murder, and this was an easy out. 

Emily... ok, I'm with everyone else on this... what a shitty way to write her out of the show.  But, what were the options?  Have her get hit by a bus?  Off somewhere every time June pops by?  I don't think going back to Gilead is consistent with the character at all, but I can't come up with any better way to write her off.  It was AB's choice not to come back, right?

And can someone remind me of how Serena is going to be walking free?  I get that Fred made a deal that was supposed to get him freedom (and a plane to Europe) in exchange for flipping on Gilead.  But how is Serena not being charged for her crimes?  I know there's an answer to this, but I can't remember how it fell out last season.

[Armchair Critic]

ACK I just started watching it and right away an extreme close up of June's face.

[AngelaHunter]

Just watched "Morning". I wish I liked this more, but it was hard to get a handle on the few bits that were shoehorned in between looong closeups of June's face - bloody June, scowling June, smirking June, teary June, June stuffing her face, June washing her face in the bathroom and washing her face again in the lake.  I just wish she had done that before she ate. I did like the way she ignored Luke as she might a fly buzzing around.

4 hours ago, sadie said:

the freedom fighters in the diner slowly realizing that the only person June cares about is June

I guess they just got the memo.

Nick was in someone's kitchen with some woman. I have no memory of who she is. Maybe she's his new wife.

Then we have Serena, still issuing orders and making demands. She ends up in another spacious, attractive accomodation where she can continue her yoga. I bet there are lots of prisoners who never enslaved, imprisoned, raped, beat, tortured, or abused anyone but are probably in dreary regular cells. It's great to be special but it's been so long I seem to have forgotten why S is getting the royal treatment. When Tuello told Serena they got Freddy's finger and then reached into his pocket I thought he had it and was going to present it to her.

The other revenge-seekers expect Nick to be able to kidnap a bunch of wives and commanders from Gilead and transport them with no help and no one noticing?

Emily ran back to Gilead to track down Aunt Lydia? I wonder how she got there.

I guess I'll watch the second episode, sometime or other.

[PurpleTentacle]

12 hours ago, crashdown said:

No, they never said that. They said that June THOUGHT that, not that it was true. Nothing was walked back.

That's a destinction without a difference. They showed it as true, not just as June thinking it. It's pretty clear that they had a completely different idea of where this season would go and walked that back hard, when they noticed that it was a stupid idea. Well I guess at least the writers are learning?

12 hours ago, crashdown said:

No, that's not how it works. The land belongs to NEITHER Canada nor to Gilead--that's what makes it "No Man's Land." The laws of Canada do not apply in land that Canada does not control.

No, that's not how it works. Both countries lay a claim to the land. That means both countries will want to cement their juristiction over it, by treating it like their land. The laws of Canada do apply to land Canada claims is theirs. "Control" isn't a thing in international law.

Let's say russia lays claim to Alaska. Does that mean american courts don't have jurisdiction there anymore? No, of course not.

Or somebody commits murder on the disputed Kuril islands. Does that mean they won't get prosecuted in russian or japanese courts? No, of course not.

11 hours ago, crashdown said:

But I think there's no reason that we can't accept the concept of a disputed territory in which neither Gilead nor Canada represents the law of the land.

The reason is that the land is disputed and so they would both represent the law of the land. It is believeable that there wouldn't be police there to enforce the laws, since that could lead to international incidents all the time, but once somebody waltzes into a police station in either one of these countries and confesses to a murder, in the disputed territory, either country would have to treat it like it happened on their soil. To not do so is admitting that the territory doesn't belong to you.

The Armistice Agreement you quoted doesn't apply here. Those lands were specifically assigned as land not belonging to either party. However, this episode Tuello specifically stated that the no mans lands, on the show, were still disputed territory between Canada and Gillead. Making them effectively two mans land, with a misleading name.

It is very clearly and specifically not a neutral buffer zone, but desputed territory between two countries. A character on the show, well versed in politics, said so explicitly. If the writers wanted it to be different, they should have written it differently. It's not my job to excuse their horrible writing.

4 hours ago, sadie said:

The only one that seemed to have her senses was Rory Gilmore’s girlfriend who was like “get your crazy ass off my lawn and no I’m not telling you anything ever”

Speaking off. Did Alexis Bledel quit the show? I mean what was that? That came out of nowhere. Didn't feel the least bit organic.

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

The scene outside the morgue with he people and the candles was absolutely stupid.  These people wanted to run the Waterfords out of Canada back in which season was it?!? I honestly don't buy it that people can forget what the Waterfords are what they did and what Gilead represents and be "with Serena".

The Waterfords already had pro-protestors last season. People who believe that what they are doing in Gilead works. I assume these are the same people and anti-protestors just weren't allowed there, given the circumstances.

There are crazies in every country. You just have to hope that the sane people outweigh the crazies. Otherwise you get a Gillead.

Edited September 15, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

So much to unpack.
First June. Gilead made June. The Waterfords made June.  No other circumstances made June the way she is. I don't blame her one bit for what she did and what she is going through.  June wasn't a monster pre-Gilead like a Ted Bundy or a Charles Manson. She was just a woman married to some dude who was previously married and with whom had a child. Then they took her child away, enslaved her, raped her, tortured her. Took her country away. Took her identity away. Nah. Fred deserved what he got and June deserved to dole out the punishment since Canada wouldn't do it and what is left of the American gov't wouldn't do it.  The fact that the other women want her to help them "get theirs" is not logical unless their tormentors came to Canada or close enough to the boarder that they can repeat what they did to Fred. June realizes this. The other women don't.
Serena is an idiot. Near the end she barely couldn't stand Fred and only was with him to serve her best interest. I guess though, my bastard is my bastard and he's my problem to deal with.  Serena is a strong woman who likes her independence. I can't understand why she is so pro-Gilead. It's not like they are giving her any power.  Fred was basically her puppet. I found the tango scene romantized of her relationship with Fred. The fact she is upset that June won't get hers is laughable. I mean Serena is a domestic terrorist, a rapist and a slave owner. To start with. When is she going to get hers? 
I don't buy that Emily would go back to killed Lydia.  I wish they would have given her a better send off to Montreal and that she needed time away. 
I laughed my ass off at the $88 fine.
The scene outside the morgue with he people and the candles was absolutely stupid.  These people wanted to run the Waterfords out of Canada back in which season was it?!? I honestly don't buy it that people can forget what the Waterfords are what they did and what Gilead represents and be "with Serena".
I don't buy also how Serena wants to take him back to Gilead to bury after earlier she just said to Tuello "how could you send him back there!".  I don't know. I think that the show may have jumped the blessed be thy fruit shark.
 

I’m 💯 with you. Given everything she’s been through, her current state of mind makes perfect sense to me. I’m certainly not the same person I was 6 years ago, and sometimes that scares me and makes me sad. Fred fucking deserved exactly what he got, period. She and the others killed a terrorist. They should give her a medal. In the US I know, we cheer when terrorists are killed. I assume most of Canada feels the same. Is this really any different than killing Hitler or Osama Bin Laden? The opportunity presented itself, and she/they took it. The alternative was a terrorist getting to escape all punishment. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[lucindabelle]

Honestly I think we’re meant to believe that the no man’s land is exactly that. It’s territory that both sides have agreed belongs to neither one. That seems very clear in the context of the show, and why Canada wouldn’t pursue the crime. When I hear the phrase Nomansland I think of World War I, and the territory in between the trenches. This is often where prisoner exchange does happen.

I feel like the scene with all the fans at the end of the vigil Was repetitive, and they were just too many people. I didn’t really buy it the first time Fred and Serena had fans but this was just ridiculous. One thing that really bothers me is that Gilead is not that old a nation and we know that because Hannah is still a little girl. It’s not a generation old even.
 

And yet  we are presented with these wives, these fans, these young wives as if they’ve grown up under it when nobody can remember this whole country being more than eight or nine years old. nicks new wife should have a memory of life before gilead if she’s older than 15, which she clearly is. 
 

it’s like the show wanted both ways, wants to show the ingrained dystopian traditions, but also wants to keep the stakes high for June by having her have a little girl to rescue. One for so much of this to make sense, Gilead needs to be about at least 20 years old, if not a little more. They need to have been some children born that have grown up entirely graduated from whatever school they were in and gotten married in Gilead for these in green traditions to make sense. Every single wife in Gilead learn to read somewhere (unless we’re retconning that they were all weirdly badly gone schooled) So every single adult woman it’s just pretending not to know how to read.

I too feel like Serena‘s arc has gone backwards. I liked when she and June were working together. And I like seeing the Serena that is disappointed  at how things turned out. Her wanting to return to Gilead, where her husband cut off her finger and nobody would hear her proposals, just because she had a few fans, doesn’t ring true to me and Canada allowing it certainly doesn’t ring true to me. It’s simply not true that all civilized countries allow political prisoners to go home and bury their spouses, what a ridiculous assertion. 
 

It just really feels like they’re looking for excuses to set more scenes in Gilead. And that’s what I imagine is the future for Emily as well it never occurred to me that she’s off the show I just assumed this is an excuse to see her there.

I will keep watching, in part because the testaments wasn’t all that satisfying. I also laughed really hard at the $88 and how she tells Luke I have to pay a fine online. That was hilarious.

Edited September 15, 2022 by lucindabelle

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That's a destinction without a difference. They showed it as true, not just as June thinking it. It's pretty clear that they had a completely different idea of where this season would go and walked that back hard, when they noticed that it was a stupid idea.

No they did not. They IMMEDIATELY (as in, the day after the season four finale aired) indicated clearly that June would not be leaving Luke, that this was something in June's head but certainly not in Luke's. I'm not sure why you think that's a trivial distinction, because it isn't one at all. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by crashdown

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Speaking off. Did Alexis Bledel quit the show? I mean what was that? That came out of nowhere. Didn't feel the least bit organic.

She did leave the show. 

I really don't believe any woman in their right mind would head back to Gilead and honestly the handmaids being all pissy that June is suddenly about June clearly haven't been listening to June. They also haven't been thinking if any of them genuinely believe crossing the boarder and heading to their old places to kill Wives was in any way going to work. 

I'm not going to harp on no man's land beyond this. The US and Canada had a clearly defined border with no arguments or questions. When the Gilead crowd took over, they clearly did not change the border because that would cause Canada to immediately declare war - a violation of the border is a big deal. Since there's never been mention of the borders being in dispute. If there was some sort of dispute on the border, both Canada and Gilead would claim jurisdiction because to NOT claim jurisdiction is to concede that they don't own the disputed land. Now I will handwave because we don't want June in jail but...

I loved the "its a fine of 88 dollars" - what an epitaph for poor old Fred. 

Totally don't believe Tuello would sanction a trip to Gilead to bury Fred. 

[chocolatine]

Emily going back to Gilead would make sense if she still had a child there, like June does, but I don't believe that her desire to hunt down Aunt Lydia was so great that it would have made her leave Oliver and Sylvia. I really wish the show had had all three of them quietly move to Europe or somewhere else far away, since last season we saw them talk about the risk of Canada sending handmaids back to Gilead. Emily could have left a letter for June; we didn't need Sylvia to explain what happened. Emily deserved a happy ending after everything she'd gone through.

Small nitpick about Serena calling Fred's killing a salvaging, since, by the book's definition, it was a particicution. In the book, Offred did say that particicutions always made her ravenous, so the diner scene was a nod to that. I also liked that, when Fred's body was shown, we could see that the handmaids had literally torn strips off of him.

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I too feel like Serena‘s arc has gone backwards. I liked when she and June were working together. And I like seeing the Serena that is disappointed  at how things turned out. Her wanting to return to Gilead, where her husband cut off her finger and nobody would hear her proposals, just because she had a few fans, doesn’t ring true to me and Canada allowing it certainly doesn’t ring true to me.

I'm going to remain stubbornly confident in Serena's arc--I think it's stuttering before the inevitable forward momentum. For one thing, Fred is gone, and he and his mind games were always an impediment to Serena's growth. Fred was the one who realized that June and Serena had bonded in his absence and responded by humiliating her with the beat-down in front of June, and Fred also was the one who put the idea of getting Nichole back into Serena's head after she had made peace with her decision. Fred sucked, in short, and now there's no more Fred. Serena will find her way once again.

[Cinnabon]

51 minutes ago, Redrum said:

She did leave the show. 

I really don't believe any woman in their right mind would head back to Gilead and honestly the handmaids being all pissy that June is suddenly about June clearly haven't been listening to June. They also haven't been thinking if any of them genuinely believe crossing the boarder and heading to their old places to kill Wives was in any way going to work. 

I'm not going to harp on no man's land beyond this. The US and Canada had a clearly defined border with no arguments or questions. When the Gilead crowd took over, they clearly did not change the border because that would cause Canada to immediately declare war - a violation of the border is a big deal. Since there's never been mention of the borders being in dispute. If there was some sort of dispute on the border, both Canada and Gilead would claim jurisdiction because to NOT claim jurisdiction is to concede that they don't own the disputed land. Now I will handwave because we don't want June in jail but...

I loved the "its a fine of 88 dollars" - what an epitaph for poor old Fred. 

Totally don't believe Tuello would sanction a trip to Gilead to bury Fred. 

Canada wouldn’t want to put her in jail for killing a terrorist. They needed an official “reason” not to prosecute, but i have no doubt that they were privately applauding her for taking him out.

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Honestly I think we’re meant to believe that the no man’s land is exactly that. It’s territory that both sides have agreed belongs to neither one. That seems very clear in the context of the show, and why Canada wouldn’t pursue the crime. When I hear the phrase Nomansland I think of World War I, and the territory in between the trenches. This is often where prisoner exchange does happen.

Except that is the opposite of what Tuello said this episode. If we are meant to believe that, maybe a character well versed in politics shouldn't say the opposite. He could have said "well no mans land is a neutral buffer zone between Canada and Gilead, where nobody has jurisdiction". Instead he said "It seems the incident itself was committed in a still-disputed territory between Gilead and Canada."

If the writers want June to get off scott-free, they've got to write it better! It's not that hard! I am not going to give them a pass for sucking at their job. June should be rotting in jail right now.

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

No they did not. They IMMEDIATELY (as in, the day after the season four finale aired) indicated clearly that June would not be leaving Luke, that this was something in June's head but certainly not in Luke's. I'm not sure why you think that's a trivial distinction, because it isn't one at all. 

I guess they IMMEDIATELY, as in the months between the point where the season finale was shot and the time it aired, recognised how stupid it was what they had just shown on screen and walked it back IMMEDIATELY... after a few months where they had shot it.

I don't think it's a trivial distinction, I think there is no real distinction at all and I'm not sure why you think there is. Can there be a difference between what a character thinks and what is reality? Sure. Was there in this case? Nope.

As you said, they indicated that the day after the episode aired. Meaning it wasn't in the episode at all.

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I feel like the scene with all the fans at the end of the vigil Was repetitive, and they were just too many people. I didn’t really buy it the first time Fred and Serena had fans but this was just ridiculous. One thing that really bothers me is that Gilead is not that old a nation and we know that because Hannah is still a little girl. It’s not a generation old even.

You don't buy that there are a ton of crazies? We aren't allowed to discuss the specifics of real world politics here, but I mean, look at all the crazies in the real world. Both in North America and Europe. All things considered, there were very few people at that vigil.

32 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I'm going to remain stubbornly confident in Serena's arc--I think it's stuttering before the inevitable forward momentum. For one thing, Fred is gone, and he and his mind games were always an impediment to Serena's growth. Fred was the one who realized that June and Serena had bonded in his absence and responded by humiliating her with the beat-down in front of June, and Fred also was the one who put the idea of getting Nichole back into Serena's head after she had made peace with her decision. Fred sucked, in short, and now there's no more Fred. Serena will find her way once again.

Yes, I think Serena will be a glorious villain. No more strings on her. She is going to orchestrate the desctruction of north american democracy all on her own. Just as she brought down the USA before, so she will bring down Canada.

[Cinnabon]

54 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

June should be rotting in jail right now.

Would you feel the same about someone who killed Hitler or Bin Laden? June took the opportunity to take out a terrorist. He enslaved her, stole her child, and sent her mother to a death camp.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[greekmom]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If the writers want June to get off scott-free, they've got to write it better! It's not that hard! I am not going to give them a pass for sucking at their job. June should be rotting in jail right now.

Hmmmm.... not according to the Canadians and the one American - Tuello. The Toronto cops didn't bat an eye and Tuello actually thanked her in a round about way.  I think June got her hands dirty and really took care of a problem that neither party were willing to take care of.  If the Canadians did more than jail him they would have had issues with Gilead. If the Americans killed him, they would have had issues with Gilead. June doing the deed in the disputed land was the perfect alternative for Fred to get his. 

[Haleth]

Despite the overdone close ups of EM's face for most of the episode, she really does play simmering insanity very well.  The constantly rippling emotions are scary.  Luke and Moira really need to get her someplace for her own safety immediately.  

The other ex-handmaid women are all crazy too.  And Emily.  I'm not saying it's without reason but they all certainly need help.

I was surprised Nick's wife (Rose?) knows so much about June.  Nick really trusts her.

So Fred was only worth $88.  Illegal transportation of a biological specimen.  I think the "no man's land" thing was a convenient excuse to be rid of a terrorist.  Oops.

[Redrum]

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Would you feel the same about someone who killed Hitler or Bin Laden?

If a civilian took it upon themselves to kidnap Hitler or Bin Laden during a state sanctioned prisoner exchange and then tortured him to death and then made a point of publicly confessing? I wouldn't be weeping tears over the deaths but yeah, the civilian would be arrested.

Aesthetically, I love that June paid an 88 dollar fine for taking Fred's life. If this was a real world situation, Gilead could and likely would use this as a pretext to attack Canada, claiming rightly that they did their part of the bargain - they gave up 23 political prisoners in exchange for Fred and got nothing in return because of an attack led from inside Canada that Canada tacitly allowed. 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

If a civilian took it upon themselves to kidnap Hitler or Bin Laden during a state sanctioned prisoner exchange and then tortured him to death and then made a point of publicly confessing? I wouldn't be weeping tears over the deaths but yeah, the civilian would be arrested.

Aesthetically, I love that June paid an 88 dollar fine for taking Fred's life. If this was a real world situation, Gilead could and likely would use this as a pretext to attack Canada, claiming rightly that they did their part of the bargain - they gave up 23 political prisoners in exchange for Fred and got nothing in return because of an attack led from inside Canada that Canada tacitly allowed. 

The whole point and the fact that it happened over disputed area "aka no man's land" between Canada and Gilead is the way around the situation. If it happened in Canada yeah she would have been in deep crap and probably handed over to Gilead for punishment. 

And let's be honest. Gilead's hands are far from clean. We don't know how many prisoner exchanges were lost from their side being transferred to the Americans and/or Canadians. 

War is a dirty business.

[Redrum]

Yeah but the "no man's land" concept between Gilead and Canada is simply flawed to begin with. Land is never officially no man's land. If Canada says its Canada then its subject to Canadian law. If Canada says its disputed territory then Canada believes its Canadian and subject to Canadian law. If Canada says it didn't happen on Canadian soil, the its no longer disputed or no man's land, its Gilead.

I mean, the show ignores a lot of stuff so I am fine, but in the real world, if a prisoner exchange went this badly against one side of the exchange in disputed territory, the side getting the shit end of the stick can easily justify an armed strike in response. Gilead gave up 23 prisoners and got nothing in return on this deal because of agitators Canada refuses to punish or deport.

[madpsych78]

Guys...my theory on the "Emily going back to Gilead" thing is that the girlfriend lied to June. She just said that to June to throw her off their trail. She did not seem worried or frantic or really even showing a variety of emotion to June. My take is that Emily and the girlfriend are just going to live their lives quietly in Canada but they wanted to get June out of their lives.

[Cinnabon]

53 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Yeah but the "no man's land" concept between Gilead and Canada is simply flawed to begin with. Land is never officially no man's land. If Canada says its Canada then its subject to Canadian law. If Canada says its disputed territory then Canada believes its Canadian and subject to Canadian law. If Canada says it didn't happen on Canadian soil, the its no longer disputed or no man's land, its Gilead.

I mean, the show ignores a lot of stuff so I am fine, but in the real world, if a prisoner exchange went this badly against one side of the exchange in disputed territory, the side getting the shit end of the stick can easily justify an armed strike in response. Gilead gave up 23 prisoners and got nothing in return on this deal because of agitators Canada refuses to punish or deport.

Gilead is a “nation” of terrorists, much like Afghanistan. No other country should comply with any of their “demands.” They should give June the fucking medal of freedom.

[Redrum]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Gilead is a “nation” of terrorists, much like Afghanistan. No other country should comply with any of their “demands.” They should give June the fucking medal of freedom.

And if Gilead then executed 2300 random Martha's to point out how Canada/US fucked them over in a prisoner exchange broadly steeped in the Canadian/US favor? Or consider this - yeah Gilead is a nation of terrorist and what did Canada allow to happen to a political prisoner? At last check, execution by being torn limb from limb and bitten is kinda sorta not cool per international law. I know, Canada/US is the good guys here but its problematic.

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, Redrum said:

And if Gilead then executed 2300 random Martha's to point out how Canada/US fucked them over in a prisoner exchange broadly steeped in the Canadian/US favor? Or consider this - yeah Gilead is a nation of terrorist and what did Canada allow to happen to a political prisoner? At last check, execution by being torn limb from limb and bitten is kinda sorta not cool per international law. I know, Canada/US is the good guys here but its problematic.

International law? Didn’t the leaders of Gilead start by assassinating congress and POTUS? I can’t understand why any other country would even recognize Gilead as legitimate.

[Redrum]

21 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

International law? Didn’t the leaders of Gilead start by assassinating congress and POTUS? I can’t understand why any other country would even recognize Gilead as legitimate.

Well, its not a real country. Realistically the toppling of the United States by assassinating Congress and the President would cause massive worldwide political nightmares. The US government in absentia would have demanded assistance from NATO, Canada and Mexico both would have called in all allied support and there would likely have been a full scale war particularly if Gilead reneged on trade and treaty agreements made by the US.

Gilead as presented on this show couldn't exist because it assumes the revolution happened in a vacuum and any and all outside issues were ignored.

I mean, Gilead even ignores the salient fertility issue. If fertility is so low, and its been eight years, they should be having massive concerns about replacing the workforce. 

Hilariously Gilead is, on the show, more politically accepted than say, the current regime in Afghanistan. 

Its a world building problem.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Redrum

[Anela]

47 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

International law? Didn’t the leaders of Gilead start by assassinating congress and POTUS? I can’t understand why any other country would even recognize Gilead as legitimate.

Yes, and they did what they were taught to do to each other, and men who were sentenced to death by handmaid. They kill marthas and handmaids like they're bugs who won't be missed. 

(I'm not debating, I have stressful stuff happening offline - just pointing that out.)

Edited September 15, 2022 by Anela

[Cinnabon]

48 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

What happened to Serena's mother, wouldn't she go to the funeral of her son in law?

That Tuello guy, something is off with him, he is charmed by Serena who is dangerous and was part of the start of an insurrection that toppled American government and freedoms, complicit in the killing of people, rape, torture, unthinkable things, etc...but he goes above and beyond to help her get to Gilead so she can produce a ridiculous circus of a funeral all for good PR for Gilead. He should lose his job over that crap.

I don’t think he’s actually fooled by Serena’s act. He’s just very professional! 🙂

[Redrum]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think he’s actually fooled by Serena’s act. He’s just very professional! 🙂

Agreed. I also liked his offer to Nick....

[RunningMarket]

17 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

ACK I just started watching it and right away an extreme close up of June's face.

This.

The second half got so much better when they actually showed other people, or at the very least, June from at least 3 feet away.

[greekmom]

6 hours ago, Redrum said:

Yeah but the "no man's land" concept between Gilead and Canada is simply flawed to begin with. Land is never officially no man's land. If Canada says its Canada then its subject to Canadian law. If Canada says its disputed territory then Canada believes its Canadian and subject to Canadian law. If Canada says it didn't happen on Canadian soil, the its no longer disputed or no man's land, its Gilead.

I mean, the show ignores a lot of stuff so I am fine, but in the real world, if a prisoner exchange went this badly against one side of the exchange in disputed territory, the side getting the shit end of the stick can easily justify an armed strike in response. Gilead gave up 23 prisoners and got nothing in return on this deal because of agitators Canada refuses to punish or deport.

There is a ton of examples throughout history of "no man's land".  Land near the Cactus curtain in Cuba, land near the Iron Curtain in the Eastern bloc, the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea and the Green line in Cyprus.  

I can accept the fact that there is no man's land between Gilead and Canada that is currently in dispute as Gilead isn't an official country recognized by the rest of the world and basically it was a terrorist attack of the US. I can't accept the fact that June, Luke and Moira live in a decent house in Toronto that would easily go for a million, the time it takes to move from Toronto to Gilead (Toronto is 90 mins from the nearest US boarder) and that they would be able to go from Toronto to Chicago by boat in a short amount of time.  Plus having June go into Lake Ontario in Toronto is just ewwwww.... even though you can swim in some parts, i just wouldn't.

Edited September 15, 2022 by greekmom

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

There is a ton of examples throughout history of "no man's land".  Land near the Cactus curtain in Cuba, land near the Iron Curtain in the Eastern bloc, the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea and the Green line in Cyprus.  

I can accept the fact that there is no man's land between Gilead and Canada that is currently in dispute as Gilead isn't an official country recognized by the rest of the world and basically it was a terrorist attack of the US

I've become persuaded that the whole way they've presented No Man's Land in the show is illogical--if the territory is disputed, it really should mean that both countries claim it, not that neither country claims it. However, it's also pretty obvious that the writers just couldn't resist the delicious resonance of the phrase "No Man's Land." Whether it makes political sense or not, it makes all the symbolic and poetic sense in the world.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:13 PM, Helena Dax said:

Is Tuello (or the US government) really going to let Serena go back to Gilead? It seems very stupid. 

That was really weird. I am not sure how she could go from being held in solitary confinement (even if it is fancy solitary) to them even considering letting her go.

21 hours ago, chaifan said:

Emily... ok, I'm with everyone else on this... what a shitty way to write her out of the show.  But, what were the options?  Have her get hit by a bus?  Off somewhere every time June pops by?  I don't think going back to Gilead is consistent with the character at all, but I can't come up with any better way to write her off. 

Not sure why they didn't just have Moira explain that Emily felt there was too much drama and Gilead reminders in Toronto so they moved to Saskatchewan.

7 hours ago, Redrum said:

Yeah but the "no man's land" concept between Gilead and Canada is simply flawed to begin with. Land is never officially no man's land. If Canada says its Canada then its subject to Canadian law. If Canada says its disputed territory then Canada believes its Canadian and subject to Canadian law. If Canada says it didn't happen on Canadian soil, the its no longer disputed or no man's land, its Gilead.

I could buy the disputed territory/no man's land thing if the deal is that Canada feels that the murder site is not secure so they can't send cops or CSI people in there without a risk of attack. And without being able to properly go over the crime scene, and with no witnesses, there is nothing to corroborate June's story. So between no other evidence and the possibility of a sympathetic jury the crown thought there would be no point in charging her.

[Redrum]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And without being able to properly go over the crime scene, and with no witnesses, there is nothing to corroborate June's story.

I mean, they did retrieve the body and it is missing the finger June says she sent to Serena. I mean, she confessed, and the body is where she told them in the condition she says she caused. How much evidence do they need???

;)

I get they just didn't want to bother but really.

[SourK]

So, early on, this show had a problem where it would just dramatize horrible, depressing situations where the characters were helpless to do anything but suffer, and it felt really scary and disempowering to watch. Now, it has a problem where it's a wish-fulfillment fantasy about shaking your fist at your oppressors, and the main characters are insulated from ever facing the (just or unjust) negative consequences of their actions.

The joke about paying a fine online was funny -- but should it have been? Should this story take place in a universe where the country June has refugee status in is okay with her dipping out to murder someone now and then? Does that add something to the narrative, or is it just an escape hatch because the writers retroactively don't like how they ended things last season?

Also -- putting everyone back in Gilead is the most boring possible choice, IMO. I'm not actually interested in seeing that. I hope nobody goes.

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, Redrum said:

Gilead as presented on this show couldn't exist because it assumes the revolution happened in a vacuum and any and all outside issues were ignored.

Even if you ignore the outside world I am pretty sure Gilead couldn't exist. The us workforce is about half women, and if they all become Marthas, Aunt's, Wives and Handmaid's (or worse) that would tank their economy.

On top of that Google says the US military is about 16% women, not a huge number but when you consider that the remaining US would still have women in it's ranks it would make a difference. Especially since Gilead also hates LGBTQ people, Catholics, and the educated so they would lose those people from their armed forces. Plus it would be hard to fight a war with the remaining US if you also have to keep essentially cops on every street corner in all your cities (and none of those cops are women either). It would have worked better I think if the said that Gilead is just the east coast and the US still controls the rest, because that whole US is a flag with 2 stars thing is dumb.