S02.E01: Spies

[Phebemarie]

I enjoyed the premiere, but there were a lot of characters in the episode.  We had the regular gang, plus Nigel and his former lover, Nancy and a few of the cholera pit group, and the unpleasant guests.  Maybe it was a bit busier than normal.  It’ll be nice to focus on fewer characters next week.  
 

Warning:  I’m going full English teacher here.  I don’t think the writers have anything against Duluth.  I think they ran through a bunch of Midwestern cities to find the perfect fit for the sentence. “When you’re dealing with two-faced Chicagoans” doesn’t have the same alliteration (dealing and Duluth) and rhythm.  It’s almost iambic pentameter (shout out to any Shakespeare fans).  
 

I’ll show myself out.  
 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Phebemarie

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, Skooma said:

Actually I think we know way more about Pete than any other character.  Hell, we met his wife, daughter and grandson even.  And he is indeed the glue that holds the rest of the ghost "family" together.  We know he has a crush on Alberta too.  Also an awesome D&D player and big Bob Newhart Show fan.  I love Pete's character big time.

And he loves Basketball and was a Travel Agent. His daughter was there when he got shot in the neck with an arrow, but she wasn't the one who did it.

Spoiler

An upcoming episode will focus on Pete and Flower's deaths when they are reenacted for a show filming at Woodstone Manor called "Dumb Deaths".

[South]

On 9/30/2022 at 1:02 AM, eskimo said:

This is the best comedy in years, I hope it has a long run. With a large regular cast and new B&B guests most weeks I think there will be a lot to work with. 

For those that watched the original run of Roseanne...was the female guest Kathy Bowman?  She really plays a great shrew.  😆 Off to look it up!

Oh!  Good gravy!  That’s it!  She was Roseanne’s snooty neighbor!  I’ve forced myself to think on it for a bit before hitting up IMDB.   It’s funny, I had the notion that she was a difficult neighbor to someone on a show, but I just couldn’t place her.  Here she is again playing a similar role.  I reckon she just has that “thing” on lock, so that when needed, they can ring her up.  I also considered that she could have been Jamie and Paul’s uppity British neighbor on Mad About You, but dropped that notion.

On 9/30/2022 at 2:23 AM, kathyk24 said:

I would like for Jay to see the ghosts this show could be an updated version of Bewitched. Sometimes Jay is fortunate that he can't see them. The ghosts can act like children and Sam always has to explain why she's talking to herself. The therapist from Thorapy thought she was crazy.

Loved Thorapy.  A+++++

[Daff]

21 hours ago, AuxArx said:

Obnoxious Nancy sure didn’t argue when Hetty told her to leave; she just okayed and left. I guess you don’t argue with Hetty. Funny.

Also, what did Trevor say when it sounded like he was speaking another language. Guess I should have closed captioning on all the time since I tend to miss stuff when the characters speak too fast (and my hearing’s not that great anyway).

I laughed hysterically at that, too. I viewed it as commentary on just how concrete Nancy really is, as Hetty’s subtle dismissal flew right over her head.  Hetty then needed to resort to the (gasp, how uncouth) direct form to get her to go. I really think Hetty found that to be as distasteful as Nancy’s presence above basement. 

[Chaos Theory]

What I say about technology is that I know more then the average person my age but the average 10 year old probably does know more then me.   I took a bunch of computer classes back in the late 90s early 00 but then dropped it before it became a career for reasons I can’t really explain.  So I do or did know stuff and can hook up my computer and Xbox myself.   But when my mom who is a technophobe wanted me to figure something on her phone which is different from mine I was a little lost and after a minute my 8 year old nephew grabbed the phone and beep bop boop fixes the issue.   My nieces  who is five plays with her plastic cell phone like it was real.    I think the joke is realistic for the vast majority of adults who don’t have computer degrees.  The older you get the more confusing the technology gets.

[iMonrey]

Quote

i can do without Flower. I don’t think she adds much and eight ghosts is a lot of ghosts. Cuts down on the time allowed for the others and I wouldn’t mind at all if she got sucked off.

She's probably my least favorite ghost, but that's like saying it's my least favorite ice cream. Still good. She's sort of a one-note character but I do get a laugh out of her now and then. I'm actually really disappointed that they didn't use Crash as a regular character. The headless ghost is a regular on the British version. I assume they didn't want to be bothered with the CGI necessary to render his two halves (and I suspect they didn't contract the actor who played him in the pilot). 

Quote

 I really think Hetty found that to be as distasteful as Nancy’s presence above basement. 

I thought it was funny Hetty kept calling Nancy "it." "Is it telling the truth?"

I don't really get the cholera ghosts. They are clearly free to move about the property at will, I don't get why they would prefer to just stand around in the basement. 

[Snow Apple]

I like Pete too. Of all the ghosts, he's the one who works the hardest to include Jay and have become best buds.

[Snow Apple]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I don't really get the cholera ghosts. They are clearly free to move about the property at will, I don't get why they would prefer to just stand around in the basement. 

Maybe ghosts feel most comfortable where they passed even though they can roam? Like roaming around is "nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there." Nigel and his ex seems to be most comfortable in the small shack even though I'm sure there are roomier wings of the main house. I mean, why else would they want to still live together?

I'm hoping there are more ghosts that nobody knows about coming out of the woodworks. Not to become regulars though. They had the 80's prom ghost and Hetty's husband for one episode each and then went away. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Snow Apple

[stonehaven]

I was a bit bummed that Nancy didn't ask "how's my boy Pete?".

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

[Flower]'s sort of a one-note character but I do get a laugh out of her now and then.

Her 'Which one is Jay?" got the biggest laugh from me in this episode.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

16 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Her 'Which one is Jay?" got the biggest laugh from me in this episode.

For me the funniest part was Trevor silently pointing him out without changing his expression one iota. He’s just so used to her. 

[Skooma]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't really get the cholera ghosts. They are clearly free to move about the property at will, I don't get why they would prefer to just stand around in the basement. 

We were told in the pilot I believe it was that they smell terrible because of the condition they were in when they died to all the other ghosts.   In return our upstairs ghosts have basically banished them to live in the basement.  And for some reason the cholera ghosts have never mounted a rebellion to those orders.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, stonehaven said:

I was a bit bummed that Nancy didn't ask "how's my boy Pete?".

More relieved than disappointed. 
And now I’m wondering what that reveals about me. Like:

16 minutes ago, Skooma said:

We were told in the pilot I believe it was that they smell terrible because of the condition they were in when they died to all the other ghosts.   In return our upstairs ghosts have basically banished them to live in the basement.  And for some reason the cholera ghosts have never mounted a rebellion to those orders.

 
 
 

6 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I'm hoping there are more ghosts that nobody knows about coming out of the woodworks…They had…Hetty’s husband…

There could be another hidden passageway revealed, with a runaway enslaved person ghost. But if it was just one person who was hoping to be reunited with their family, that would be too sad for our little comedy. 
A couple of Black people and a white person who had been alone for 150 years or so could be interesting. But I can’t imagine a scenario that would give them the peace to go up 🙁.

 
 
 

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

i can do without Flower. I don’t think she adds much and eight ghosts is a lot of ghosts. Cuts down on the time allowed for the others and I wouldn’t mind at all if she got sucked off.

She's probably my least favorite ghost, but that's like saying it's my least favorite ice cream. Still good. She's sort of a one-note character but I do get a laugh out of her now and then. I'm actually really disappointed that they didn't use Crash as a regular character. The headless ghost is a regular on the British version. I assume they didn't want to be bothered with the CGI necessary to render his two halves (and I suspect they didn't contract the actor who played him in the pilot). 

If I had died doing just one of the foolish things I did when I was a “flower child,” I would be like flower——except instead of being an authority on the history of basketball, I could be giving lectures about the lives of famous artists.

That said, I don’t think she’s the most interesting ghost.

But I am so glad we don’t see more of the headless ghost:  
Ew. {shudder}

[eel21788]

19 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

  Reveal spoiler

An upcoming episode will focus on Pete and Flower's deaths when they are reenacted for a show filming at Woodstone Manor called "Dumb Deaths".

I wonder if that will include an update on what the rest of the world thinks happened to Trevor. Do they still believe he just suddenly disappeared or has he been found at the bottom of the lake?

[redpencil]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:38 PM, iMonrey said:

Another great line I remembered on re-watch: when the ghosts were warning Sam her voice was too high and she dropped it about two octaves to say "I'll let you enjoy your salads."

I'm about 99% positive nobody here but me will know/remember this, but it totally reminded me of this old Christmas video with Jimmy Stewart. At the end he gets invited to go join some Christmas carolers, and they ask him if he sings bass (starting about here). My family used to watch this every year and we still quote this line.

[eel21788]

2 hours ago, redpencil said:

I'm about 99% positive nobody here but me will know/remember this, but it totally reminded me of this old Christmas video with Jimmy Stewart. At the end he gets invited to go join some Christmas carolers, and they ask him if he sings bass (starting about here). My family used to watch this every year and we still quote this line.

It reminded me of Elizabeth Holmes.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, redpencil said:

I'm about 99% positive nobody here but me will know/remember this, but it totally reminded me of this old Christmas video with Jimmy Stewart. At the end he gets invited to go join some Christmas carolers, and they ask him if he sings bass (starting about here). My family used to watch this every year and we still quote this line.

But Rose seemingly has more vocal range than Jimmy Stuart. 😉

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm hoping there are more ghosts that nobody knows about coming out of the woodworks. Not to become regulars though.

Well there's the ghost living over at the Farnsby's house. I assume we'll see more of her eventually. 

[Skooma]

12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Well there's the ghost living over at the Farnsby's house. I assume we'll see more of her eventually. 

Also Sasappis' beloved he wanted to marry along with the old timey newsboy that was with her in town. 

And I just re-watched the pilot and episode 2 and in episode 2 there were 3 ghost "extras" in town other than the doctor ghost in it.  There was a Black construction worker with a piece of large steel stuck through his chest and an elderly couple crossing the street as Jay "runs over" them much to Sam's horror until she realizes the car passed through them instead.

[Daff]

17 hours ago, redpencil said:

I'm about 99% positive nobody here but me will know/remember this, but it totally reminded me of this old Christmas video with Jimmy Stewart. At the end he gets invited to go join some Christmas carolers, and they ask him if he sings bass (starting about here). My family used to watch this every year and we still quote this line.

Thanks for this. We were still so innocent in the 80s, weren’t we? And new Christmas themed movies were a fairly rare treat (with real stars), instead of a dime a dozen (or two-you know the channels I’m talking about). Bet your family made sure to watch “Miracle on 34th”, “A Wonderful Life”, and Peanuts, Frosty, Rudolph, too, while decorating the tree.

[Katy M]

I wasn't sure how I would feel if Jay could see the ghosts. I was kind of hoping he couldn't.  Him being out of the loop is a pretty major part of the show.  Absolutely loved the scene where he thought he could see Pete.  I do kind of wonder what the delivery guy thought through all of that, though.  They kept him off screen for our benefit, but Jay was talking to "Pete" for a good few seconds.

[bad things are bad]

I would have liked Jay to be able to see the ghosts for a day or so after he fell through the floor. Enough to regret when he lost the ability and enough that he could understand Sam's references to them.

[tennisgurl]

Welcome back Ghosts! Its so great to see the whole gang again, season two looks like its going to be just as great as season one was! Is just such a delight, I always leave an episode feeling happy. Glad that Sam and Jay finally got a win from some guests and Jay standing up for Sam was adorable, my only disappointment is that we never got to see that satanic looking butter bowl.

The "real hackers" punchline was pure gold. 

I really thought that Jay was finally going to get to see the ghosts, poor guy was so excited when he thought that he saw Pete.

Edited October 3, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Johannah]

When Sam told the guests that she heard them because the walls were thin, I wished she had said "the ghosts told me," just to see their reaction.  They wouldn't have believed her so no harm if Sam didn't want people to know.  Or the couple might have posted that the owner thought she could see ghosts and that might have drawn some more guests, while the others that would be repelled by that thought could be consoled with, "I was just messing with them because they complained so much."

[iMonrey]

Quote

I would have liked Jay to be able to see the ghosts for a day or so after he fell through the floor. Enough to regret when he lost the ability and enough that he could understand Sam's references to them.

I think that would be more sad than funny. Sort of a "Flowers for Algernon" situation.

[Katy M]

19 hours ago, Johann said:

while the others that would be repelled by that thought could be consoled with, "I was just messing with them because they complained so much."

How would they get that information?  If they're repelled they're not going to reach out.  And I would be less likely to stay somewhere where the owner admits on the general board to messing with people just because they complain too much.  Or, even if she just told me that, actually. Sounds petty.

TBH, I would have been getting a bit freaked out already by Sam fixing everything moments after I made an aside to my partner.  I would have already assumed eavesdropping.  One or two things could be a coincidence.  But everything?  Including swapping out the butter dish midmeal?  Too much.

[KarenX]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think that would be more sad than funny. Sort of a "Flowers for Algernon" situation.

Maybe we can get a ghost photography episode, where at least Jay can see their pictures. 

[eel21788]

41 minutes ago, KarenX said:

Maybe we can get a ghost photography episode, where at least Jay can see their pictures. 

Do ghosts show up in digital pictures? I know they didn't show up back in the days when we used actual film photography.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 9/30/2022 at 10:27 AM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

He said “kvetch to your face and kvell behind your back”. Basically Yiddish for complimenting and complaining, respectively. 

On 9/30/2022 at 11:13 AM, iMonrey said:

Reverse that an you've got it. 😉

Yes, "Kvell (act delighted) to your face and kvetch (complain) behind your back."  Many people on Yelp are kvetchers.

[KarenX]

2 hours ago, eel21788 said:

Do ghosts show up in digital pictures? I know they didn't show up back in the days when we used actual film photography.

Maybe on TV they can!

[hatchetgirl]

Dang it - Why did I think this wasn't coming back until Halloween???  LOL  I know what I'm watching tonight!

[Paloma]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:13 AM, iMonrey said:

Quote

He said “kvetch to your face and kvell behind your back”. 

Reverse that an you've got it. 😉

LOL, I actually know what these Yiddish words mean but at first thought the original explanation was correct. Then I saw your comment and realized I read the first explanation too quickly. Thanks for the correction. 

It's also funny because in most of the first season I didn't really notice Trevor using Yiddish words, even though (or maybe because) I'm from a Jewish family that often used them. But once someone pointed it out on this forum, I realized that he uses them frequently. I didn't like him much in the early episodes, but he's grown on me. 

On 9/29/2022 at 10:12 PM, chaifan said:

The one thing that I found really weird, though, is the ending to Season 1.  What purpose did having them fall through the floor serve?  I wonder if they had initially toyed with the idea of killing Jay off for a second, so he could see ghosts, too, and left it open for something like that until they had some view reaction/input to Season 1. 

My theory was that both Sam and Jay were dead after falling through the floor and were now ghosts, so that basically all the characters would be ghosts. It didn't really make sense and probably wouldn't make for a good show narratively, but there should have been more of a consequence to the fall. It looked like a bad fall and the basement floor is presumably concrete or some other hard surface, so they should have both been injured--broken bone or something.

[shapeshifter]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:12 PM, chaifan said:

The one thing that I found really weird, though, is the ending to Season 1.  What purpose did having them fall through the floor serve?  I wonder if they had initially toyed with the idea of killing Jay off for a second, so he could see ghosts, too, and left it open for something like that until they had some view reaction/input to Season 1. 

8 minutes ago, Paloma said:

My theory was that both Sam and Jay were dead after falling through the floor and were now ghosts, so that basically all the characters would be ghosts. It didn't really make sense and probably wouldn't make for a good show narratively, but there should have been more of a consequence to the fall. It looked like a bad fall and the basement floor is presumably concrete or some other hard surface, so they should have both been injured--broken bone or something.

Maybe they fell on a pile of straw or old mattresses?

[Katy M]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:51 PM, KarenX said:

Maybe on TV they can!

They did on Supernatural.

[eel21788]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:01 PM, Paloma said:

 It's also funny because in most of the first season I didn't really notice Trevor using Yiddish words, even though (or maybe because) I'm from a Jewish family that often used them. But once someone pointed it out on this forum, I realized that he uses them frequently.

If you grow up hearing Yiddish all the time, it just becomes a part of your English vocabulary. In kindergarten, I got in trouble for calling someone a nudnik because the teacher had no idea what it meant. I thought it was something everyone said.

[Scarlett45]

I’m repeating my schedule last year and downloaded Paramount+ to watch Ghosts after the season is over. It makes for light post work decompression time. 

[LexieLily]

"Yes! Most interesting decade. Probably best '90s since 1190s, though 1490s were pretty wild." Now I want to know what happened in the 1490s that excited Thor so much, did it have to do with salmon or cod?

I'm so happy that I'm getting caught up on my binge-watching and that I'm already at the start of season two. Yay! How injured was Jay, though, if he was still in bed by the time the floor was fixed? Him running room to room as soon as Sam left for the day to see if he could see the other ghosts was so cute! He wants to be able to see them so badly (well, mostly just Pete :p), I hope it happens for him someday, somehow. He's gotten chances to see what Trevor, Alberta, and Flower look like, he probably knows what Hetty sounds like thanks to her possessing him last year, hopefully before the series is over even if he doesn't get the opportunity to see/hear them like Sam does he'll be able to have pictures or a frame of reference for the others somehow.

Wait. I don't know anything about D&D beyond what we saw in the episode last season but I know there were dice involved, and if there were dice involved that should mean there are gamepieces for each player. If Sam wanted to do something above and beyond thoughtful for Jay she could draw little pictures and match them to each color, like a key, just for Jay so he'd be able to know what each ghost-player looked like. For that reason alone I'm sure all the ghosts, even Hetty, would agree to play just once. 

Whichever ghost said that they were going to spy anyway so Sam and Jay might as well get something out of it this time wasn't wrong :D. I think my favorite part of the ghost spying was Trevor's annoyed reaction to Pete repeating his toilet paper joke for Sam because she'd just come into the room and hadn't heard it yet, LOL. They really are all like siblings, aren't they? 

(I feel like the preemptive "stay out of the guest rooms, this isn't a peep show" warning was mostly for Trevor, but for as much as he has douchebro tendencies I don't know that he would do that.)

I love it how what finally bothered Jay enough to call out the stupid couple was when they insulted Sam's perfume - it was a good narrative choice for Trevor to be the one to tell that particular criticism to Sam because he was the one ghost that knew it was her late mother's ("Thank you for that verbal cold shower") - and I LOLed at the obnoxious couple being caught because they didn't know their Yelp reviews weren't anonymous. What I wouldn't give to know what happened at Thanksgiving once the lady's sister knew it was them that insulted her shrimp shack :p. 

Isaac disappointed me this week with how easily he was able to treat Thor badly in deference to Nigel, but considering he and Nigel only just got together after two hundred and fifty years of pining I suppose it makes sense. And at least he had Hetty, Sass, and the Spice Girls to bring him to his senses. Brandon's line reading of "If you want to be my special companion you have to get with my Viking friend" was inspired XD.

Aw, Thor and Nigel bonding over ants! And now that all is well and Thor can go back upstairs the cholera pit ghosts can have the basement back. I love Hetty constantly calling Nancy "It." Lmao.

[Annber03]

48 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

"Yes! Most interesting decade. Probably best '90s since 1190s, though 1490s were pretty wild." Now I want to know what happened in the 1490s that excited Thor so much, did it have to do with salmon or cod?

Right? The guy's been around as a ghost for a thousand years, imagine the amount of stories he's yet to tell about all he's seen during that time. I so very much want the show to explore that further. 

Quote

Wait. I don't know anything about D&D beyond what we saw in the episode last season but I know there were dice involved, and if there were dice involved that should mean there are gamepieces for each player. If Sam wanted to do something above and beyond thoughtful for Jay she could draw little pictures and match them to each color, like a key, just for Jay so he'd be able to know what each ghost-player looked like. For that reason alone I'm sure all the ghosts, even Hetty, would agree to play just once. 

...I LOVE this idea :D. Yes. 

Quote

Whichever ghost said that they were going to spy anyway so Sam and Jay might as well get something out of it this time wasn't wrong :D. I think my favorite part of the ghost spying was Trevor's annoyed reaction to Pete repeating his toilet paper joke for Sam because she'd just come into the room and hadn't heard it yet, LOL. They really are all like siblings, aren't they? 

Haha, I love that bit, too. I also always laugh at Alberta's reaction at the end when Sam's reading the Yelp review where Debbie's still going on about the sheets. "Let it go, Debbie." They are all just so done with this couple and their nonsense, it's fantastic. 

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I love it how what finally bothered Jay enough to call out the stupid couple was when they insulted Sam's perfume - it was a good narrative choice for Trevor to be the one to tell that particular criticism to Sam because he was the one ghost that knew it was her late mother's ("Thank you for that verbal cold shower") - and I LOLed at the obnoxious couple being caught because they didn't know their Yelp reviews weren't anonymous. What I wouldn't give to know what happened at Thanksgiving once the lady's sister knew it was them that insulted her shrimp shack :p. 

Ha, oh, god, yes. Talk about an awkward family get-together :p. 

I love that Trevor looks almost as offended as Jay does about the couple's reaction to Sam's perfume. And Jay sticking up for her as he does remains one of his best moments ever on the show (which is saying something, considering he's got so many!) I also sympathize with Jay just finally going, "I hate these people." Anyone who's worked customer service can relate. 

Quote

Isaac disappointed me this week with how easily he was able to treat Thor badly in deference to Nigel, but considering he and Nigel only just got together after two hundred and fifty years of pining I suppose it makes sense. And at least he had Hetty, Sass, and the Spice Girls to bring him to his senses. Brandon's line reading of "If you want to be my special companion you have to get with my Viking friend" was inspired XD.

Hee, yes, I love that quote, too. That line will forever tickle me XD. I too was a bit surprised at his reaction to Thor at first, but it made his apology later on all the sweeter and more special. And I like that he made a point of making that apology in front of Nigel, too, so that both men could get the message he was sending. It may take him a second sometimes, but I do love that when he realizes he screwed up, he goes out of his way to make things right and apologizes directly to the person he's upset. That's always been one of the things I like most about him as a character, so it was nice to see that here, too :). 

59 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

I love Hetty constantly calling Nancy "It." Lmao.

The way she just flat out says, "Leave." to her in such a direct, forceful manner...XD. 

[PaulE]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:28 PM, LexieLily said:

Isaac disappointed me this week with how easily he was able to treat Thor badly in deference to Nigel, but considering he and Nigel only just got together after two hundred and fifty years of pining I suppose it makes sense. And at least he had Hetty, Sass, and the Spice Girls to bring him to his senses. Brandon's line reading of "If you want to be my special companion you have to get with my Viking friend" was inspired XD.

Aw, Thor and Nigel bonding over ants!

Watching this again, I had a few thoughts.  Although I can certainly understand why Nigel might find Thor annoying, it was pretty nervy of Nigel to complain.  After all, he's the guest in the house, not Thor, and though the other ghosts seem to accept and like him, he's watching TV with them only because of his relationship with Isaac.  I get it: he's spent most of the past 250 years isolated in the shed with only two subordinates for company and he's probably just not used to being around so many people at once.  But still, how could he not realize that, if he had an issue with Thor, it was really his problem, not Thor's, and certainly not Isaac's (and, yes, Isaac should have told him that rather than be so willing to hurt Thor's feelings, but as we know, it's all about Isaac).  However, on the plus side, Nigel was willing to apologize once he realized that Isaac cared about Thor.  I think he did that partly because he'll do what it takes to make his relationship with Isaac work, but I also think he genuinely understood that he'd been wrong to criticize.  He could simply have said he was sorry and left it at that, but he went further and said he knew he wasn't everyone's cup of tea, either.  And of course that has now led to his having an ant-watching companion in Thor.  He's just lucky the other ghosts didn't turn on him, since their first loyalty is going to be to Thor, not him.

And I'd forgotten how funny it was to see Nigel sitting there in his uniform bopping along to the Spice Girls.  Well, the only music he's heard for the last two and a half centuries was the Grenadiers' March played on Baxter's fife every time he went anywhere, so no wonder!

[Annber03]

14 hours ago, PaulE said:

Watching this again, I had a few thoughts.  Although I can certainly understand why Nigel might find Thor annoying, it was pretty nervy of Nigel to complain.  After all, he's the guest in the house, not Thor, and though the other ghosts seem to accept and like him, he's watching TV with them only because of his relationship with Isaac.  I get it: he's spent most of the past 250 years isolated in the shed with only two subordinates for company and he's probably just not used to being around so many people at once.  But still, how could he not realize that, if he had an issue with Thor, it was really his problem, not Thor's, and certainly not Isaac's (and, yes, Isaac should have told him that rather than be so willing to hurt Thor's feelings, but as we know, it's all about Isaac).  However, on the plus side, Nigel was willing to apologize once he realized that Isaac cared about Thor.  I think he did that partly because he'll do what it takes to make his relationship with Isaac work, but I also think he genuinely understood that he'd been wrong to criticize.  

Course, he did also simply excuse himself when Thor got to be too much for him at first, and only brought up his issues after Isaac had asked him about it. And it was Isaac's idea to tell Thor to back off, too - granted, Nigel agreed to it, but still, had Isaac not asked him what was bothering him, he probably wouldn't have said anything at all. 

If the show ever does decide to delve more into Nigel's backstory a bit at any point, though, I do think it would be interesting to touch on the fact that he's been rather alone in a lot of ways thus far, too - like you said, he was stuck in a shed with two other soldiers (one of whom was his ex-lover, no less - and that relationship had not ended on good terms, and said ex has been trying to drive a wedge between Nigel and Isaac to boot), but even before his death, he was in a strange country, far away from home, he never got the chance to see his family and friends back home again. I think that's the big thing driving a lot of his insecurities and awkwardness here - yes, some of it is, as you said, the fact that he hasn't been used to being around so many people, but also, if things were to fall apart with him and Isaac, Isaac has an entire house full of people to lean on and turn to and find comfort in. 

Nigel, meanwhile, doesn't. If things weren't to work out with him and Isaac, he'd be going back to the pretty lonely and isolated afterlife he'd been living for 250 years. Add in the fact that he's a British officer surrounded by a bunch of Americans - sure, he's fallen for one of them, but still, given he and Isaac have fought each other over the war even now, well... I think he's still adjusting in a lot of ways to trying to find common ground with a group of people he'd been taught to see as the enemy. 

So yeah. Being unsure of how to deal with Thor may have been the big reason for his issues here, but I do think all of the above might explain some of his actions in general throughout this season with some of the other ghosts, and with Isaac. 

[Annber03]

10 hours ago, PaulE said:

Another reason for his insecurities is probably the fact that Isaac has several times pulled the rug out from under him just when he thinks they've made progress in their relationship, so he's never quite sure where he stands.

Mmhm. I totally get and sympathize with Isaac's side of things in that regard - he's been repressed for so long and has only just recently started to accept himself and who he is, and is still learning to feel comfortable with himself and this relationship. He's from a time period where the general mindset about homosexuality and same-sex relationships and whatnot was very different, and sure, he's been around as a ghost long enough to see things change in that regard, but even so, that's still a difficult mindset to shake off in the best and most modern of circumstances, let alone for centuries. He's clearly got a lot of insecurities, too, about himself and how Nigel sees him and whatnot, so yeah. I don't blame him one bit for wanting to take things slow, even if it's at a snail's pace, as a result. 

But I can also sympathize with Nigel's frustration and wondering where their relationship is going, too. Their main issue is just that they need to communicate better about this stuff, and learn to get on the same page more frequently. Fortunately, I do think they are on their way there, so yeah, hopefully with time we'll get to see more of that kind of development and get to see them handling each new phase/step in their relationship on a more united front :). 

[PaulE]

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I totally get and sympathize with Isaac's side of things in that regard - he's been repressed for so long and has only just recently started to accept himself and who he is, and is still learning to feel comfortable with himself and this relationship. He's from a time period where the general mindset about homosexuality and same-sex relationships and whatnot was very different, and sure, he's been around as a ghost long enough to see things change in that regard, but even so, that's still a difficult mindset to shake off in the best and most modern of circumstances, let alone for centuries. He's clearly got a lot of insecurities, too, about himself and how Nigel sees him and whatnot, so yeah. I don't blame him one bit for wanting to take things slow, even if it's at a snail's pace, as a result. 

Oh sure; I know Isaac wasn’t trying to be cruel or difficult, but the end result still caused uncertainties.  Which begs the question of why Nigel seems so comfortable in his own skin (or I guess in his case, ectoplasm), given that his own background would have been as repressed if not more so than Isaac’s. Maybe upper-class self- confidence?  Something for Isaac and Hetty to ponder during one of their weekly sessions . . .

[KarenX]

Well, he’s already had one love affair that broke convention and nothing actually terrible happened. He didn’t lose status. He didn’t lose his home. He just had an ugly breakup.

Isaac hasn’t really faced down his fears like Nigel did. Isaac has only faced them. He has no experience of going through with it and being ok to give him confidence.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, KarenX said:

Well, he’s already had one love affair that broke convention and nothing actually terrible happened. He didn’t lose status. He didn’t lose his home. He just had an ugly breakup.

Isaac hasn’t really faced down his fears like Nigel did. Isaac has only faced them. He has no experience of going through with it and being ok to give him confidence.

These differences between Isaac and NIgel's perspectives made me curious about attitudes towards gay men in the 18th century in England vs. America. I found this great source:
paullettgolden.com/post/homosexuality-in-the-18th-century
which — for anyone wanting to do a really deep dive — includes a link to this comprehensive source: "Gay History and Literature: Writings by Rictor Norton"

Having skimmed these sources, I'm guessing that Isaac may have not had opportunities to encounter any places where gay culture thrived, whereas Nigel, in England, did.🤔

Edited July 14, 2023 by shapeshifter