S04.E11 I'm Done Choosing

[gingerella]

The Plath children all gather at the farm to celebrate Joshua (the Plath toddler tragically run over) , but when Olivia (whom Kim said was possessed by demons) learns Kim is included at the gravesite visit, tensions quickly rise; Moriah's frustration with Olivia grows (because Moriah will never forgive Max but Olivia should forgive the woman who called her possessed) and a request from Ethan shocks Kim (If he's not asking her to apologize profusely to Olivia then I really don't give a damn).

[Gharlane]

Quote

"I'm Done Choosing". The Plath children all gather at the farm to celebrate Joshua, but when Olivia learns Kim is included at the gravesite visit, tensions quickly rise; Moriah's frustration with Olivia grows and a request from Ethan shocks Kim.

I only discovered this was a two-hour long ep because this week's The Dark Side Of The 90's was bullshit and I began to channel surf. I began watching with the family arriving at the Joshua's gravesite and it all seemed so very creepy and unnatural to me and I lost interest and switched channels when Ethan and Olivia started to argue about her staying away from Kim. I seriously doubt I'll bother watching the two hour "finally" next week.

[Gharlane]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

I don't think Kim ever really 'homeschooled' her kids in that she seemingly didn't care if they ever learned anything or not.  From what Ethan said last night, he was allowed to do whatever he wanted and had no set curriculum or guidelines.  That being the case, Kim and Barry never did work very hard at educating their kids.  Many states have very loose guidelines for homeschooling and I expect Georgia is one of them.  Then again, there are kids graduating from regular high school who don't know how to read and write properly, so its not just homeschooled kids who can lack proper education.

It did catch my ear when Ethan said that when discussing what he resents about her. 

[bichonblitz]

I'm hoping there was alot more footage left on the cutting room floor of the meet up with Ethan and Kim. Ethan barely skimmed over what he was upset about but I think that had to do with editing.  Kim trying to insert her pathetic jokes in between Ethan trying to drive home his points was not appreciated by him. So far I've gathered that Kim was a lazy mom. She actually said "well, there is still no soda in the house". She included something else, too, I think it was sweets?  Holy crap is she ever clueless. I'm glad Ethan said that it's not about that. She realized at that moment that this was a serious meeting and he wasn't there to take any of her BS.

Olivia was childish and selfish regarding visiting the grave. Looks like the older kids are tired of her diva behavior, too. Did Ethan ever get an apology from her for ruining his day? I don't know about these two. Most of the time I think Ethan is the insufferable one then here comes Olivia showing herself for the ass that she is, too. 

[Gharlane]

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Ooo boy, last night worked my last damn nerve. Every episode I think Kim thinks she's getting a redemption edit but she just keeps digging a deeper hole for herself. The whining that she wasn't invited to the sleep over at the farm - yeah, because you're a witch of a mother who is narcissistic and selfish AF so why would they invite you? Also, she's a wet blanket on every room or place she enters.

The whole mishigas with Olivia and the graveside visit? Ridiculous. Olivia needs to get the fuck over that shit and just be able to stand next to her husband, hold his hand, and just BE there. You don't need to talk to Kim, just ignore her but be there for the siblings whom you love. And if that's too traumatic then don't go at all, stay in Tampa and have a weekend to yourself. But if you really still get that triggered by Kim then you need serious work with your therapist. I still think that not being able to go to couples therapy is a big roadblock for Olivia and Ethan healing their issues with his mother. As far as I remember, Ethan won't go, or went once and thought it was enough. I think the other thing that's difficult for Olivia - and it's difficult to watch play out - is that all the elder siblings were on her side more or less, then Micah decided to make amends with his mother, then Moriah, and now it looks like Ethan is trying to heal as well. That leaves Olivia as the last woman standing, who will take a stand against Kim because Kim is a horrible person. BUT, she is also the mother of Olivia's husband and his siblings whom she loves. So girl's in a difficult spot and needs to find a way out of that.

And while I thought Olivia needed to get over it for this particular gathering, I also think Moriah needs to shut the fuck up about being over the drama because she couldn't even pay a damn bill for months after her break up with Max. And all the drama she created over that bullshit. She isn't the first girl to get cheated on, and she sadly wont be the last. This is what happens though, when you thwart a child's emotional growth by hiding them away from socializing with kids their own age, letting them go to school, letting them date, etc. They cannot handle much in the real world. One boyfriend gone bad and Moriah says she may not ever want to be with anyone. Seriously?!

The same as above goes for Ethan. He probably sees how Micah is dealing with dating and socializing and testing the waters and he realizes that he got duped into believing that marrying the first girl he was hot for was 'doing the right thing' because that's what Mommy Dearest harped on about when he was growing up. This poor schmuck was Kim's first 'experiment' with her whackadoodle 'parenting philosophy' and he probably bears the biggest scars as a result. I can understand why he's so mad at Kim, but also he doesn't express himself as clearly as he needs to because Kim keeps trying to deflect and make lame ass jokes and at least there Ethan is redirecting his anger and questions and not allowing her to do that shit. The whole convo with his mother was so uncomfortable, wasn't it? Not because of why it was happening, but because Kim is sitting there with her Breck hair, trying to act all cool and breezy, when her son is telling her 'You fucked up raising me bitch, and now I'm stunted emotionally and career wise!" And I may have missed it, but I did not see one time where she took much responsibility other than saying 'I could have done better'. She should have said, "I went into parenting thinking this, and here's why I thought that. I see now with my older children that I was so wrong about x,y &z and here's why I was wrong. Here is what I'm trying to do differently with the younger children, and I am so deeply sorry I foisted these ideals onto you Ethan, I truly am. And I'm sorry that I also tried to change Olivia too." THAT is what she should have said. But instead we got a lot of "well, ummm" bullshit word salad.

Last but not least, someone needs to send Barry some Carmex.

I missed the kids camping at the family farm without Kim, but I saw Olivia refusing to leave the producer's car at the cemetery. Did she not ride there with Ethan? 

Yeah, Kim, I am sure telling Ethan that you now allow ginger ale, but only for parties, makes Ethan feel a lot better about how he grew up.

[RedDelicious]

I think Olivia's points and her feelings are 100% valid. Unfortunately for her, she hasn't found her way out of it and hasn't been able to separate her feelings about Kim so she can be supportive of the rest of the family.  I can relate to that; I've been there. I've been the asshole. It is really hard.

Time + experience will help her mature, and hopefully she will learn how to effectively set boundaries. Although she has tried, I don't think she's been that effective. To be fair, Ethan's own massive pile of sh*t that he's not dealing with doesn't help. Overall I think Olivia's in a lose-lose situation with that family and she hasn't figured out how to get out of her own way either. She has a lot of work to do, but it's also like trying to run up a sand dune. It's going to take a lot.

Moriah can miss me with her so-called breaking point with Olivia. Yes she's entitled to be very frustrated with her, but Olivia and Ethan picked up all the pieces and Ethan paid the bills when Moriah was on the floor in devastation over Max's infidelity, so I kind of don't want to hear it. She's a little too Stockholmy about Kim and it's weird.

[Ms.Lulu]

The summary:

• The Plathlets show up at the farm and run around like small kids (their sheltered childhood is relived)
  • Children and adults alike climb trees
• Micah shows up and there is more tree climbing and running around (the isolated little girls are thrilled to see someone, even if it is just another Plath)
• The kids decide to invite Kim and inform Olivia via a Moriah messenger in a tube top under short short overalls
• The Plaths meet up at the graveyard (yellow flowers for Dawa)
  • Spectrum Barry says his lines
  • Lydia makes a quick appearance
• Olivia needs more therapy before she can ignore the woman that said she was filled with demons (She acknowledges that she didn't give Ethan enough support)
• Ethan is mad at Olivia (He is a hot head)
• The kids head to the Punky's pool hall (where Plath's go to remember a brother run over by their mother)
• Moriah whines that she is done choosing (Apparently she is the only person who is allowed to process her feelings)
• Ethan makes dinner (not sure it was edible by the amount of food left on the plates)
  • And he gives Olivia a leather jacket
• Micah goes out with the deep-voiced Brazilian and says, at least 3 more dates (Antia is way too much into Micah for a first date)
• Micah hopes that the family can figure out a way to be in the same place, even if they aren't close (meaning Kim and Olivia/Ethan)
• Kim stupidly thinks that a meeting with Ethan means that she will be forgiven for poor parenting (she isn't accountable for anything)
  • Ethan says Kim should have focused him on academics
  • Kim claims she was encouraging his love of cars instead
  • Kim does not get a hug and heads back to the studio
• The adult kids plan to join Olivia in Jamaica to celebrate Ethan's birthday 

More trouble is brewing.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ms.Lulu

[heatherchandler]

46 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I think Olivia's points and her feelings are 100% valid. Unfortunately for her, she hasn't found her way out of it and hasn't been able to separate her feelings about Kim so she can be supportive of the rest of the family.  I can relate to that; I've been there. I've been the asshole. It is really hard.

SAME!  And it sucks.  I get insanely irrationally angry that people are nice to the person who aggrieved me.  And I literally cannot stay calm, and I look crazy.  It is the worst.

[Notabug]

21 hours ago, Gharlane said:

I missed the kids camping at the family farm without Kim, but I saw Olivia refusing to leave the producer's car at the cemetery. Did she not ride there with Ethan? 

Yeah, Kim, I am sure telling Ethan that you now allow ginger ale, but only for parties, makes Ethan feel a lot better about how he grew up.

No, when Olivia heard that Kim was going to be at the cemetery at the same time the rest of them were, she got upset; she apparently expected that they would all go to the cemetery and then Kim would come alone at a later time, after they had left.  They didn't show a lot of her reaction after Ethan and the others told her the plan; but she was apparently upset enough that Ethan thought she wasn't coming and drove off without her.  I think she was once again wanting everyone to take her side and boycott the cemetery while Kim was there and got angry when that didn't happen.  Then, when she realized that no one was staying behind with her, she was upset that she would be alone on the farm and got a ride with a production assistant but then refused to get out of the car.

I understand why Olivia detests Kim, but she's got to stop making it into a contest where the rest of the family are constantly having to prove they like her best.  Especially when they're at an event commemorating a toddler who died tragically and Kim was the mother of that toddler who Olivia never met.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Notabug

[gingerella]

Wow, last night really worked my last damn nerve! I think Kim thinks she's getting a redemption edit but she just keeps digging a deeper hole for herself. The whining that she wasn't invited to the sleep over at the farm - yeah, because you're a witch of a mother who is narcissistic and selfish AF so why would they invite you? Also, she's a wet blanket on every room or place she enters.

The whole mishigas with Olivia and the graveside visit? Ridiculous. Olivia needs to get the fuck over that shit and just be able to stand next to her husband, hold his hand, and just BE there. You don't need to talk to Kim, just ignore her but be there for the siblings whom you love. And if that's too traumatic then don't go at all, stay in Tampa and have a weekend to yourself. But if you really still get that triggered by Kim then you need serious work with your therapist. I still think that not being able to go to couples therapy is a big roadblock for Olivia and Ethan healing their issues with his mother. As far as I remember, Ethan won't go, or went once and thought it was enough. I think the other thing that's difficult for Olivia - and it's difficult to watch play out - is that all the elder siblings were on her side more or less, then Micah decided to make amends with his mother, then Moriah, and now it looks like Ethan is trying to heal as well. That leaves Olivia as the last woman standing, who will take a stand against Kim because Kim is a horrible person. BUT, she is also the mother of Olivia's husband and his siblings whom she loves. So girl's in a difficult spot and needs to find a way out of that.

And while I thought Olivia needed to get over it for this particular gathering, I also think Moriah needs to shut the fuck up about being over the drama because she couldn't even pay a damn bill for months after her break up with Max. And all the drama she created over that bullshit. She isn't the first girl to get cheated on, and she sadly wont be the last. This is what happens though, when you thwart a child's emotional growth by hiding them away from socializing with kids their own age, letting them go to school, letting them date, etc. They cannot handle much in the real world. One boyfriend gone bad and Moriah says she may not ever want to be with anyone. Seriously?!

The same as above goes for Ethan. He probably sees how Micah is dealing with dating and socializing and testing the waters and he realizes that he got duped into believing that marrying the first girl he was hot for was 'doing the right thing' because that's what Mommy Dearest harped on about when he was growing up. This poor schmuck was Kim's first 'experiment' with her whackadoodle 'parenting philosophy' and he probably bears the biggest scars as a result. I can understand why he's so mad at Kim, but also he doesn't express himself as clearly as he needs to because Kim keeps trying to deflect and make lame ass jokes and at least there Ethan is redirecting his anger and questions and not allowing her to do that shit. The whole convo with his mother was so uncomfortable, wasn't it? Not because of why it was happening, but because Kim is sitting there with her Breck hair, trying to act all cool and breezy, when her son is telling her 'You fucked up raising me bitch, and now I'm stunted emotionally and career wise!" And I may have missed it, but I did not see one time where she took much responsibility other than saying 'I could have done better'. She should have said, "I went into parenting thinking this, and here's why I thought that. I see now with my older children that I was so wrong about x,y &z and here's why I was wrong. Here is what I'm trying to do differently with the younger children, and I am so deeply sorry I foisted these ideals onto you Ethan, I truly am. And I'm sorry that I also tried to change Olivia too." THAT is what she should have said. But instead we got a lot of "well, ummm" bullshit word salad.

Last but not least, someone needs to send Barry some Carmex.

Edited July 28, 2022 by gingerella

[charmed1]

I think I must have missed the part where Ethan met with Kim. I watched this episode through the TLC app and the meet-up was advertised as a teaser for next week. 

[gingerella]

18 minutes ago, charmed1 said:

I think I must have missed the part where Ethan met with Kim. I watched this episode through the TLC app and the meet-up was advertised as a teaser for next week. 

Oh it happened alright!

[Gharlane]

1 hour ago, charmed1 said:

I think I must have missed the part where Ethan met with Kim. I watched this episode through the TLC app and the meet-up was advertised as a teaser for next week. 

It was at the end of the ep, but I only saw part of it. 

[lightninggirl]

The difference between Ethan and Olivia's petulant little bitchfests is that at least Olivia is self-aware enough to realize how she's hurt others. Ethan's anger just screams "GET THEE TO THERAPY!" There's so much that he needs to work through that I can't even imagine what that bill would be like. 😬 

I can't even imagine Olivia meeting with Kim, especially with her stating in the last episode that she doesn't think she did anything wrong against Olivia. 😵‍💫 My god.

I'm not sure why Kim insists on wearing clothing that looks like it's been painted on. It's like she pulled the least flattering thing out of her closet and said, "YES! HOT MAMA!!!" No, no, nope. Nuh uh. Her jeggins at her meeting with Ethan were just ... nope.

Good for Ethan to state, "Sodas were NOT the issue [growing up]" and then listing more items that Kim and Barry had totally failed at. Fuck Kim for gaslighting Ethan and blaming him for not studying, and bravo for Ethan for calling her out and telling her that she "fell short." Understatement of the century. He came back at her and wasn't going to accept her bullshit excuses. I love how she basically gaslighted him again when talking about his marriage to Olivia, like "We wouldn't have been able to talk you out of marrying her, so you made your bed."

Even when directly asked, Kim hemmed and hawed and couldn't even say what she would have done differently in raising the kids because she's a complete fucking NARC and won't take responsibility or admit that she did anything wrong. Her mothering is a total cautionary tale and she can't see that even a little bit. What a bitch - having him repeat the word "amicable" and saying "SEE? You do know some big words" like her educational direction with him wasn't a total disaster. Asshole.

Antia's horrible, ratty extensions clued me into that her Birkin was probably fake. 😂 I really could have passed up that date sequence as Micah is definitely not interested in Antia outside of a roll under a blanket. 🙃

Edited July 28, 2022 by lightninggirl

[bichonblitz]

37 minutes ago, lightninggirl said:

What a bitch - having him repeat the word "amicable" and saying "SEE? You do know some big words" like her educational direction with him wasn't a total disaster. Asshole.

How dare she say that to him? I wanted to smack her! Snarky, know it all bitch!

[CSunshine76]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:14 PM, Notabug said:

I understand why Olivia detests Kim, but she's got to stop making it into a contest where the rest of the family are constantly having to prove they like her best.  Especially when they're at an event commemorating a toddler who died tragically and Kim was the mother of that toddler who Olivia never met.

This! All damn day. Visiting a grave for a child/sibling‘s birthday is not about you, Olivia!

Edited July 29, 2022 by CSunshine76

[charmed1]

Ethan strikes me as someone who was intellectually curious as a child. He didn’t just want to work on old cars as Kim said. He was also able to manipulate his father’s old broken radio. Ethan seems to have a knack for figuring out how things work. Had he’d been allowed an education, he may have been interested in becoming an engineer. I can only imagine how suffocating it must’ve been to grow up as a smart or creative person in that environment. Kim and Barry are both extremely selfish to have all these children and then deny them an education especially when they are both college educated themselves.

Ethan would be wise to take his TLC money and enroll in a trade school or community college if he wants to. Since he seems to be a leader for his younger siblings, this might inspire them as well.

Edited July 29, 2022 by charmed1

[Mr. Miner]

The way they run around the farm some of those kids look like they could have done well in athletics. It appears they weren't exposed to sports at all.

[Back Atcha]

3 hours ago, Mr. Miner said:

The way they run around the farm some of those kids look like they could have done well in athletics. It appears they weren't exposed to sports at all.

I agree; they all have  undiscovered/hidden talents that show up bit by bit.  They would have SHONE in all levels of schooling, kindergarten to university if they'd had the chance(s).  Ahh... religion!!!

[Back Atcha]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:54 AM, lightninggirl said:

I can't even imagine Olivia meeting with Kim, especially with her stating in the last episode that she doesn't think she did anything wrong against Olivia. 😵‍💫 My god.

Kim's the one who told everyone (including Olivia?) that Olivia was filled with evil spirits.  She and Barry also declared that Olivia had a "blind spot."  Not complete BLINDERS like both of them wear permanently. 

Late Edit:  Oh...now--now that it's of little or no help to her damaged children, Kim wants to remove her blinders and experience LIFE!

Edited July 30, 2022 by Back Atcha

[Dibs]

Wow, Olivia.  If your nemesis is going to be at the cemetery honoring HER dead child and you aren't mature enough to tolerate being in her presence for 20 minutes and conduct yourself like a civilized adult, your other choice was to recuse yourself and stay home.  But "I didn't want to do that, either" because then she wouldn't have been on camera and the center of attention, so she does the most awkward thing possible which is to sit in the producer's car watching them all from a distance?  Creeper vibes.  Kim has met her match in narcissism, although I haven't decided if Olivia's drama queen behavior complete with psychobabble is exacerbated by hormones since she's a younger woman and some of us do suffer from PMS or if she actually also has BPD.  Either way, I'm thrilled to see both Ethan and Moriah finally getting their fill of her antics.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Dibs

[gingerella]

8 minutes ago, Dibs said:

Wow, Olivia.  If your nemesis is going to be at the cemetery honoring HER dead child and you aren't mature enough to tolerate being in her presence for 20 minutes and conduct yourself like a civilized adult, your other choice was to recuse yourself and stay home.  But "I didn't want to do that, either" because then she wouldn't have been on camera and the center of attention, so she does the most awkward thing possible which is to sit in the producer's car watching them all from a distance?  Creeper vibes.  Kim has met her match in narcissism, although I haven't decided if Olivia's drama queen behavior complete with psychobabble is exacerbated by hormones since she's a younger woman and some of us do suffer from PMS or if she actually also has BPD.  Either way, I'm thrilled to see both Ethan and Moriah finally getting their fill of her antics.

I think nobody can discount what PTSD does to a person, I know firsthand. Olivia, Ethan, and Moriah all exhibit PTSD in my opinion. The main difference is that Olivia is the only one who is in therapy and working on her issues. She is very self aware, she knew she was out of control but she didn't know how to stop herself in the moment, and that is a first step in healing and growing and figuring out how to change one's behavior. Also, she had those two with her in feeling the same about Kim and now she probably feels like they are abandoning her and that must feel scary, especially when she's the only one with any self awareness and introspection. Ethan either hides his feelings in a gloomy pout, or a junvenile prank or joke, or by getting angry but not actually talking it out. Moriah cannot even manage to pay her portion of living expenses when she's in an emotional funk. Neither of them are fully functioning adults. Olivia is at least a fully functioning adult, out there in the real world creating and sustaining and growing her photography business. What do Moriah and Ethan do to contribute to their household expenses? I'd wager not much outside of their TLC paychecks.  At least Olivia, and her brother, seem to have jobs and are doing something other than sitting around the house.

Also, and not for nothing, but there must be conflicting emotions over Joshua's death. I mean, knowing that your own mother ran over and killed your baby brother? Jesus Christ, I cannot even fathom what that must be like for Ethan and Moriah, who seem to be the only siblings who actually remember Joshua. So yeah, I don't actually find it odd that the siblings might want to visit his grave and remember him together, without either parent there, TBH. Under the circumstances that might make sense. That said, yes of course Kim should be there, but she's the queen of shoving her presence into a situation where she isn't wanted just because 'she's the mom and she can'.  Now her power has been greatly diminished as she watches her eldest children go out into the world and do all the things she told them were evil, and they're enjoying them. Maybe that's Kim's greatest punishment, wasting her life digging in to this ridiculous armchair parenting philosophy she made up as she went. Crocodile tears AFAIC.

[Shelbie]

I wonder if this was producer generated content at the grave. Maybe they were hoping Kim and Olivia would get in a huge fight and were disappointed Olivia just sat in the car.

[Ziggy]

20 hours ago, Dibs said:

Wow, Olivia.  If your nemesis is going to be at the cemetery honoring HER dead child and you aren't mature enough to tolerate being in her presence for 20 minutes and conduct yourself like a civilized adult, your other choice was to recuse yourself and stay home.  But "I didn't want to do that, either" because then she wouldn't have been on camera and the center of attention, so she does the most awkward thing possible which is to sit in the producer's car watching them all from a distance?  Creeper vibes.  Kim has met her match in narcissism, although I haven't decided if Olivia's drama queen behavior complete with psychobabble is exacerbated by hormones since she's a younger woman and some of us do suffer from PMS or if she actually also has BPD.  Either way, I'm thrilled to see both Ethan and Moriah finally getting their fill of her antics.

I understand what you're saying, but it's also kind of taking one piece completely out of context.

I completely agree that it seems clear to many of us that the best thing to do would have been to suck it up, stand next to her husband and be supportive for one day.  But whatever happened between Olivia and Kim has clearly traumatized Olivia, and that's something I've never experienced.  I mean, I've had bad things happen to me, but I've never felt as paralyzed as Olivia has.  Who am I to tell her that what she's feeling isn't real?

Olivia found out Kim was going to be at the grave site, what, an hour before they were supposed to be there?  She panicked.  If someone had said something the day before, I'm sure she would have had time to process it.  That was harsh!

Also, Ethan was an idiot about it!  Isaac asked him if Olivia knew, and he said he didn't know.  Are you kidding me?!?  My husband would have gotten more than an earful from me if he had pulled that!  What a coward!!!  He should have been the one to talk to her, and he should have done it sooner.

I do get agree that it would have been nice if she could have sucked it up just this one time ... for their brother who died.  Sometimes, though, when things keep happening and we finally snap, it's something really minor that becomes the straw that broke the camel's back.  Like when my kids know I need to get something done for work and they just keep bugging me.  But I'm really trying to be patient and it's not until one of them is bleeding from the head that I scream, "Why won't you leave me alone?"  It's like that :-)

As soon as Ethan mentioned that they were there for his brother who died, she felt like a shmuck!  I mean she really did feel bad and knew that she should have been more sensitive and aware.

This is a family that does not know to talk about things.  Olivia is actually trying to work through this, but it's going to take time.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Ziggy

[ChristmasJones]

Olivia is in a tough position because she got the brunt of Kim's BS, and no one else really knows how that feels. Let's say Moriah was married to Max and his mother treated Moriah the way Kim did Olivia.  Moriah might be singing a different tune.  This is a problem in families with a narcissistic parent - not everyone gets treated the same, and so naturally factions form. And then the ones who need the support don't often get it from the ones who were favored, or who had thicker skins, or whatever.  

If Olivia and Ethan decide to stay together, Olivia is going to have to learn how to be in the same room as Kim. The family is just too large, with too many connections amongst so many siblings, for her to ever have a life separate from them.  The messed up part is that Kim got to treat her like crap and essentially get away with it.   The person who tries to stand up to the narc/bully usually ends up an outcast or pressured to just go along with it because its too uncomfortable for everyone else to deal with.  Maybe Olivia would be better off using all the self-improvement she's done to find a guy with a better family. I don't know.  I get the feeling that Ethan is ambivalent about their relationship sometimes, but it could be editing from the show. 

[MakingBacon]

I think most of Olivia’s trauma is from her own family and Kim’s behavior just magnifies that trauma. From what I have read, Olivia’s family had a lot of issues as well. At the end of the day, none of this is about Olivia. She didn’t know Joshua, never met nor loved him. Kim had every right to be at the gravesite any time she wanted and I say this as someone who despises Kim. Olivia made this all about her.  For someone who wants others to respect her boundaries and feelings, she had no concept of the fact that Ethan and his siblings had their own trauma due to their brother’s death, especially those who watched him die. I cannot imagine that pain to watch your baby brother be run over by your mother. Yet, everyone had to put their feelings aside because Olivia was upset. The fact that Moriah was so irritated at Olivia tells me this behavior was probably nothing new. 

[Back Atcha]

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jesus Christ, I cannot even fathom what that must be like for Ethan and Moriah, who seem to be the only siblings who actually remember Joshua.

Moriah claims to have witnessed the accident...beginning to end.  Did no one ever notice...and make sure over the years that she was okay?  She was a little girl!

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

That said, yes of course Kim should be there, but she's the queen of shoving her presence into a situation where she isn't wanted just because 'she's the mom and she can'. 

And...she'll always consider herself...and She Who Must Be Honored and Obeyed.  Most of the kids will have difficulty letting go of that dynamic.  Ethan's making headway; the right therapist would be of such great benefit.  Olivia might end up on the losing end with Kim; but Olivia will be a winner when all's said and done.

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Ziggy said:

I understand what you're saying, but it's also kind of taking one piece completely out of context.

I completely agree that it seems clear to many of us that the best thing to do would have been to suck it up, stand next to her husband and be supportive for one day.  But whatever happened between Olivia and Kim has clearly traumatized Olivia, and that's something I've never experienced.  I mean, I've had bad things happen to me, but I've never felt as paralyzed as Olivia has.  Who am I to tell her that what she's feeling isn't real?

Olivia found out Kim was going to be at the grave site, what, an hour before they were supposed to be there?  She panicked.  If someone had said something the day before, I'm sure she would have had time to process it.  That was harsh!.

My perception was that Olivia expected the family to choose HER over Kim and that her expectations weren't met because she presumed something that they did not. If they didn't tell her, she needed to spell it out to them and tell them she would not go if Kim was there. I think they were kinda cowardly in not specifically telling her that they were not willing to exclude their mother from the graveside gathering purely for Olivia's comfort; but, she knew that all of them were socializing with Kim to one degree or another and that Ethan was re-considering his relationship with Kim as well.  She surely could've guessed that they might be OK with Kim at their brother's grave. Therefore, Olivia was once again putting them in a position where she expected them to exclude Kim and include her. or choose, as Moriah put it.  Olivia has done it multiple times over the last couple seasons and, no matter how traumatized she is, no matter how panicked she is at the thought of seeing Kim; she is really overstepping when she expects everyone else to repeatedly accommodate her and snub Kim.  I also think the reason she didn't remain behind on the farm (aside from the fact that production loves drama and was more than happy that she went) was because she wanted to make sure the entire family knew she was unhappy with their decision/Kim's presence and wanted to draw attention to the fact that they didn't do things her way.

Olivia needs to work on her issues, but she also needs to realize that her issues are hers, not her SILS', nor her BILS', nor her FILS' and  not even her husband's and she needs to stop expecting them to punish Kim for her again and again.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Notabug

[BAForever]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:27 AM, gingerella said:

Oh it happened alright!

Why do I hear these words in a Jerry Seinfeld voice?

[Lisa418722]

I usually stand more behind Olivia than Kim, but this is one time I have to say Kim had every right to be at the grave with her family.  That said, Olivia is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.  If she had decided to stay behind, people would probably be saying that she needed to be there with the family. I think she should have walked up to the grave and just be quiet, not say anything. But if she had, people would have called her out saying this is a family moment and she shouldn't have been there. 
I know Olivia introduced Ethan to the "real world" meaning Cokes, alcohol, etc. But sometimes watching the two of them I wonder if Ethan would be happier if they divorced, then he could move back to Cairo and work on cars with his new found knowledge of the world.  
I know Olivia is going through therapy, but I think it would help the others as well.  Ethan doesn't need to be become Mr. Sensitive, but maybe learn to listen and talk.  Moriah, after learning she saw what happened to Joshua, needs to talk to someone about that.  But the first step for therapy is realizing you need to talk to someone and I don't see them doing that.  

Edited July 30, 2022 by Lisa418722

[BAForever]

Late to the party. Agree it was, at least, some producer shenanigans re the gravesite. Why not tell Olivia the day before that Kim was attending with the whole family? That gives Olivia time to decide if she will attend or not. Moriah gets no pass from me. She struggled with mental health issues after her break up. She should have some empathy for Olivia. Olivia should have told Ethan "I'm not ready to see your mom, I'll stay home while you visit Joshua's grave".  No mess no drama. Olivia realizes that she put Ethan and the others in an untenable situation, but it seems she really isn't ready to face Kim. So recognize that and step back. You never knew Joshua, it's ok to support Ethan from afar. 

[Mr.Mango]

If Kim really understood her shortcomings as a homeschool educator, she would be putting extra effort in the younger girl's homeschool education. If she now realizes she wasn't teaching the younger kids, she should enroll the younger ones in school. Surely there is a private Christian school that would align with her values. Now that Ethan has brought up how he felt about only being allowed to date who you are going to marry, why doesn't Kim talk with the other children and allow them to date or even have friends. It's not too late for the younger girls and even Isaac. Isaac is 16, he has 2 where he can learn a lot and be prepared for college/trade school. If she really realized her wrong doings in how she raised the kids, she'd be making changes to help the other children at home. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Didn't they say that Isaac was working full time? I figured he was done with whatever "schooling" that went on in the Plath home.

[Back Atcha]

6 hours ago, Mr.Mango said:

If Kim really understood her shortcomings as a homeschool educator, she would be putting extra effort in the younger girl's homeschool education. If she now realizes she wasn't teaching the younger kids, she should enroll the younger ones in school. Surely there is a private Christian school that would align with her values. Now that Ethan has brought up how he felt about only being allowed to date who you are going to marry, why doesn't Kim talk with the other children and allow them to date or even have friends. It's not too late for the younger girls and even Isaac. Isaac is 16, he has 2 where he can learn a lot and be prepared for college/trade school. If she really realized her wrong doings in how she raised the kids, she'd be making changes to help the other children at home. 

We NEED a "Tell All," where these questions can be asked...and suggestions made! 

I suggest that Kim be removed from any decision-making as far as education is concerned.  

[gingerella]

15 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Didn't they say that Isaac was working full time? I figured he was done with whatever "schooling" that went on in the Plath home.

It has been mentioned several times that he loves aviation and wants to be a pilot. I don't know about you.guys but I like my pilots to at least have a college education and, yanno, understand complicated electronics, gages, circuitry, all the many FAA rules and regs. I don't trust that shit to a kid whose mother let him home school himself.

Also, Kim, since you whined that 'everyone is siding with Barry', maaaybe you can look at why that is, it's not that Barry Gordon to the kids before you did. It's because you are a wretched shrew of a mother, that's why.

Edited August 1, 2022 by gingerella

[Adeejay]

So Olivia who didn’t know Joshua had the right to be at the Memorial but his mother didn’t? Please help me to understand or make it make sense.

[Back Atcha]

Tuesday night...

Ummm...so Kim calls a family meeting to announce that things are changing, "We're getting a divorce."  She mentions that nothing has been decided and then proceeds to let EVERYONE know (including us) that SHE will stay in the house...Barry can fend for himself "since he has a  j-o-b."  WAIT!  I thought she was tired--exhausted of the past 20+yrs of child-rearing and wants/NEEDS to do something special for herself alone ... her dance studio ... her  fledgling apartment ... her FREEDOM!

We know she wants to be out and about...having a fabulous SOCIAL LIFE.  Wouldn't Barry be the better one to stay in the house with the kids?  Barry's stable, calm, and loving.   Hey, Barry!  Get yourself a top divorce lawyer...not one who practices in teeny-tiny Cairo.  Get a bulldog...or maybe a wolf in sheep's clothing.  KIM IS A VIPER who cannot be trusted!  Kim has been walking all over you and the kids in this marriage.  It's time to tell her, "Your boots are made for walkin', now WALK!

[Back Atcha]

1 hour ago, Adeejay said:

So Olivia who didn’t know Joshua had the right to be at the Memorial but his mother didn’t? Please help me to understand or make it make sense.

I don't think it has to do with "a right."  The plans were made for "only the kids" to go to the gravesite, which included Olivia.  Only the kids.  Then someone invited Barry (that may have been Olivia).  THEN...because Barry was invited, someone else decided it was only fair for Kim to be invited.  It was a mixed up mess.  It won't make sense.

[Back Atcha]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:46 PM, Mr.Mango said:

If Kim really understood her shortcomings as a homeschool educator, she would be putting extra effort in the younger girl's homeschool education. If she now realizes she wasn't teaching the younger kids, she should enroll the younger ones in school. Surely there is a private Christian school that would align with her values.

Viper Kim's ever-changing "values," might not match any parochial school in the area.  How 'bout just a nice public school...so the kids can be in an atmosphere where the majority of American kids learn and grow?  They could probably TEACH religion classes/values...they don't need more.  They need to be able to evolve enough to fit in (academically and socially) with other elementary school kids...then attend high school and college or trade school without feeling/acting/dressing like aliens.  Kids transition quickly if we help them early enough.

[Gharlane]

On 7/31/2022 at 10:15 PM, Back Atcha said:

We NEED a "Tell All," where these questions can be asked...and suggestions made! 

Does this show not have a reunion after each season?

4 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

I don't think it has to do with "a right."  The plans were made for "only the kids" to go to the gravesite, which included Olivia.  Only the kids.  Then someone invited Barry (that may have been Olivia).  THEN...because Barry was invited, someone else decided it was only fair for Kim to be invited.  It was a mixed up mess.  It won't make sense.

Maybe it's me, but I find it weird and creepy to visit the gravesite of a child who died about a decade ago as an annual event.

[Adeejay]

It has got to be for storyline purposes because I don’t understand why Olivia has so much say about what Kim did or does and should be doing. She needs to stop playing a victim and get the fuck down from her high horse. I sincerely hope Ethan divorces her.

[Madding crowd]

I had a mother in law who was ten times as mean to me as Kim was to Olivia. I won’t even get into most of it but she has a secret 20 year relationship with my husband’s Ex encouraging her to hang in there until we got divorced ( we have been married  27 years now).  She was horrible but my husband loved his brothers, nieces and nephews and I had the choice of finding a way to be in the same space as her or missing out on every birthday, wedding etc. Olivia can stay away but she will then have to make peace with missing out on things. My MIL  recently died and I still feel hurt but I’m happy I have relationships with our nieces and nephews.

[bichonblitz]

Not only does Olivia have to deal with the trauma of what ever happened with Kim, she also has to deal with her own very screwed up family. That's alot of therapy that is needed for this girl. At least the Plath kids only have to deal with one set of monsters. Olivia has two sets. 

[readheaded]

2 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Not only does Olivia have to deal with the trauma of what ever happened with Kim, she also has to deal with her own very screwed up family. That's alot of therapy that is needed for this girl. At least the Plath kids only have to deal with one set of monsters. Olivia has two sets. 

What kind of a person is Kim to target Olivia knowing she's vulnerable and has been traumatized by her own mother?

For those who don't think Kim was horrible to Olivia, I say look at how she's treating her younger kids now. 

[Back Atcha]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:12 PM, readheaded said:

For those who don't think Kim was horrible to Olivia, I say look at how she's treating her younger kids now. 

...and find the earlier episodes when "holier than thou" Mrs. Barry Plath judged every aspect of Olivia's character and life.  NOW, Mrs. Plath wants to live LIFE ... and drink alky-hol...and be one of the youngsters out dancin'.  Judge not, lest it cometh back and biteth ye in thy asseth.   

Edited August 19, 2022 by Back Atcha

[Back Atcha]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:05 PM, Adeejay said:

She needs to stop playing a victim and get the fuck down from her high horse. I sincerely hope Ethan divorces her.

Another horse reference: WHOA!

[Back Atcha]

On 8/3/2022 at 2:45 AM, Gharlane said:

On 7/31/2022 at 7:15 PM, Back Atcha said:

We NEED a "Tell All," where these questions can be asked...and suggestions made! 

Does this show not have a reunion after each season?

I don't think so ... not one with a moderator asking questions and encouraging conversations.

[Back Atcha]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:12 PM, readheaded said:

What kind of a person is Kim to target Olivia knowing she's vulnerable and has been traumatized by her own mother?

The BULLY kind!  Self-righteous, judgmental, religious-when-it-suits-her, and cruel to her core.  NOW she's trying the Big Turnaround.  I DO NOT want TLC to facilitate this dreck.

[the-grey-lady]

23 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

The BULLY kind!  Self-righteous, judgmental, religious-when-it-suits-her, and cruel to her core.  NOW she's trying the Big Turnaround.  I DO NOT want TLC to facilitate this dreck.

I really felt for Olivia this episode. Her behavior at the gravesite (and about Kim being there) was absolutely wrong, but she recognized it and was honest about it.

That's more than we can say about Kim. Ever.

And I don't blame Olivia for holding the line about Kim. Kim is obviously the type who takes a mile when given an inch. If Olivia caves, Kim will go right back to abusing and judging her.

[the-grey-lady]

Sorry for the double-post, but Kim is infuriating me this episode. "You didn't want to do school! You wanted to be in the barn!"

Ethan was a child! It was her job to discipline him and insist he do more than the one thing he enjoyed! I'm not saying that's easy, but putting the blame on a child is unconscionable.