S06.E09: Fun and Games

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, Colorado David said:

I think Rhea has Skylar syndrome - the actress is good, but the characters are written dislikable enough we can't separate the character. Raymond Cruz is a really good actor - he's done some notable films. But his Tuco is so despicable sometimes you just hate the guy.

Well not for me, although Tuco was a POS despicable person I though he acted that part quite well.  I just don't like Rhea's acting, I personally think its terrible and was probability the only mistake in casting.

The way she speaks has been describe above as a "barking", that's quite accurate...every sentence she says, no matter what, she speaks with this breathy, quick downward inflection...a sad scene, happy scene, scared, embarrassed, thrilled always with a sharp, quick downward ending to every single sentence. 

Every great show has a bad actor...in The Sopranos it was the son actor Robert Lier (BTW he isn't even acting anymore)

Edited July 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Amazing episode.

The Manuel/Mike scene was perfection.  Mike started the show opining that you can be one side of the law or the other and still be good.  Manuel shoots that morality down.  Whether he's right to, it's not clear - like Chuck, sometimes that moral certainty can be punishing.  Let's face it, Nacho would almost certainly be alive if Manuel were willing to run with his son.  But it's a powerful counterpoint and I'm so glad the scene was there.

The Gus and Reed Diamond scene I completely missed the subtext of first time - feel stupid.  I was expecting it to lead into something to do with Madrigal for some reason and then was confused that it didn't lead anywhere.  Definitely need a rewatch.  The pool shot at the hacienda was terrific though (although definitely is one of the rare cases where people who haven't watched BB will have missed something big).  Gus is still a massive loose end to me though - there are just so many unanswered questions and I still feel we learned significantly more about him in two and a bit seasons of BB as an antagonist than in four seasons as the "and" credit protagonist.

I have a slightly more sympathetic take on Kim and Cheryl Hamlin than many of you.  There is no evidence of Howard's murder.  His body and his murderer's are never going to be found and Kim has absolutely no way to even start to meaningfully unpick the business with Lalo.  All the truth would do at this point is rake up more uncertainty, more fear, more doubt and potentially even invite really bad elements into Cheryl's life.  Instead, she burns her soul to give her what Mike tried to offer Manuel - closure.  It's horrible, but it worked.  She can move on thinking that this was a terrible tragedy and Howard is gone rather than questioning whether he was a drug addict, violently murdered or anything else, without ever being able to get closer to the truth than the word of a confessed con artist.

One beat I loved in that scene was Kim's genuine surprise at Jimmy actually being honest about his jealousy for Howard, something I'd never really thought about too much but makes perfect sense.  It's the only time I think he's ever really admitted the pain he feels about Chuck and I thought it was fascinating that he almost has healed through this greater tragedy.

A brief mention but an interesting one was that Kim called Paige so she must have known Kim's intentions.  Although the structure of the scene meant that it was impossible to see that conversation without blowing the surprise, I really, really hope we get that scene shown in a flashback before the end as I'm absolutely fascinated by the Kim/Paige friendship and would love to see it explored more deeply.

I also loved Kim leaving.  I can't imagine (and will be really sad if) this is the last Kim episode but certainly it felt right.  I thought it was really interesting that Kim's fear that drove her to embrace the crime so completely was losing Jimmy.  However, I think one failing of the season is just that the Howard scam did not feel fun.  The other scams they've done did - Huell, Mesa Verde.  But this one not only felt cruel but hardly ever did it feel really funny.  The car stunt was meant to be funny but didn't really land to me, the country club was good but rarely did we see anything that felt like it was enjoyable in the same way as that montage of delays to Everett Acker's house being demolished in 505.  Also, given how dark Kim went really abruptly in 510, pulling it back to 509 Kim feels... strange.  I just don't know they ever did enough for me to justify that switch in 510.

Time jumps... okay, as time jumps go, this was well-executed.  I'm not a big fan of the genre.  Particularly in a show like this which is so meticulous at plotting the tiniest details, there was a lot that got swallowed up.  Francesca's hopeful face at the start compared to her cynical attitude at the end, the sourcing of the KettleStatue... lots of little details that felt left on the table.  Plus, even this Jimmy I can't see glibly advocating murder.  Now, to be fair, not every loose end has dramatic merit but I hope we have the time to dig into this version of Jimmy.  I did think it was 2008 already with the talk of the public masturbator but I'm glad it's not as there's a lot more to do.

Let's hope Rhea Seehorn isn't gone for too long.

I vehemently disagree about any benefit offered to Cheryl through  "closure", by lying to her, thus making it seem as if Cheryl didn't see signs of Howard being in the throes of a terrible addiction problem. 

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

You're kidding, right? Have you ever been to Pollos Hermanos? It's spotless! Don't libel Gus!

He leaves the toy's out because they serve a purpose. It wasn't accidental. 

Either the children don't exist or they do exist but are seldom there and having a small corner with toy's in it makes him look like the proud grandpa. 

Or perhaps, he has someone with children who visits. 

2 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Well not for me, although Tuco was a POS despicable person I though he acted that part quite well.  I just don't like Rhea's acting, I personally think its terrible and was probability the only mistake in casting.

The way she speaks has been describe above as a "barking", that's quite accurate...every sentence she says, no matter what, she speaks with this breathy, quick downward inflection...a sad scene, happy scene, scared, embarrassed, thrilled always with a sharp, quick downward ending to every single sentence. 

I've known people like that so it feels real to me. And it also feels like a woman whose trying to keep herself completely in control. 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I don't understand this at all. Kim was a complete shitbag to Cheryl. Cheryl may not have wanted to be married to Howard anymore, but that doesn't mean she didn't care about Howard, wasn't upset by his death and wanted to see his reputation ruined.

And we the viewers know Cheryl is right to be skeptical about Howard's alleged drug use, a lie for which Kim and Jimmy are completely responsible.

As the scene was unfolding, I could not escape the thought that Cheryl was playing a crucial role of bereaved beneficiary, er, wife.  Howard was basically dead to her as we saw in their kitchen interaction.  She was cold as ice.  That was a purely transactional encounter for her.  So, too, imo, the wake at HHM.  

Why was it OK for Kim to appear at the bar at all after she resigned?  She had no standing to ask for consideration of anything by the judge.  Her recusal motion spoke for itself.  Would she have failed to note her new status in that motion?  Really?!

Are G&G cold-blooded enough to have fatal harm come to Lyle?  Asking for a friend.

[SimplexFish]

13 minutes ago, scenario said:

He leaves the toy's out because they serve a purpose. It wasn't accidental. 

Either the children don't exist or they do exist but are seldom there and having a small corner with toy's in it makes him look like the proud grandpa. 

Or perhaps, he has someone with children who visits. 

Besides his henchmen and a couple of others that are his criminal employees Walt and Jessie who does Gus ever allow in his home?

7 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

As the scene was unfolding, I could not escape the thought that Cheryl was playing a crucial role of bereaved beneficiary, er, wife.  Howard was basically dead to her as we saw in their kitchen interaction.  She was cold as ice.  That was a purely transactional encounter for her.  So, too, imo, the wake at HHM.  

Bingo!

Edited July 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[gallimaufry]

17 minutes ago, scenario said:

I like the fact that the Howard scam didn't feel fun. The other scams were them trying to trick rich people out of some money or help someone. The Howard scam was the first one where the purpose was to hurt the victim. Kim wanted to destroy Howards career for the sheer enjoyment of it. She lied to herself that it was to help people but it wasn't. She had no really good reason to do it. She just enjoyed the power. That's the point where Kim truly crossed over the line into being a villain. 

Perhaps but the problem with this is that it loses the vicarious feel that I think, judging by some of the writer interview comments, they were going for of "oh this is so much fun - wait, what??"  I felt worried for Kim's moral descent in the Mesa Verde arc but still had a whale of a time watching Saul tear them limb from limb and walk off whistling.  I haven't really rewatched 6A (and I've rewatched most of these episodes a whole lot) so hopefully on revisiting it will click better.

[Cinnabon]

58 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

I think Gus doesn't have much of a social life, so hitting the restaurant/bar is his little celebration for getting the North territory and NOT being discovered by Don Eladio. And for sticking it to Hector.

I think Rhea has Skylar syndrome - the actress is good, but the characters are written dislikable enough we can't separate the character. Raymond Cruz is a really good actor - he's done some notable films. But his Tuco is so despicable sometimes you just hate the guy.

I don’t think either Kim or Skyler is unlikeable. They’re complex female characters and some people seemingly can’t deal with that. Certainly characters like Nacho, Jesse, Mike, Gus etc do absolutely deplorable things consistently, and don’t seem to elicit the same level of vitriol as women do in this universe, for much lesser offenses.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

As the scene was unfolding, I could not escape the thought that Cheryl was playing a crucial role of bereaved beneficiary, er, wife.  Howard was basically dead to her as we saw in their kitchen interaction.  She was cold as ice.  That was a purely transactional encounter for her.  So, too, imo, the wake at HHM.  

Why was it OK for Kim to appear at the bar at all after she resigned?  She had no standing to ask for consideration of anything by the judge.  Her recusal motion spoke for itself.  Would she have failed to note her new status in that motion?  Really?!

Are G&G cold-blooded enough to have fatal harm come to Lyle?  Asking for a friend.

Yeah, I really disagree with the conclusion that, from observing one cold interaction, in the morning, before someone departs to work, that Howard was dead to Cheryl. Marriages end, and people are often cold as they are ending. That doesn't necessarily, or even most of the time, mean that the person displaying coldness has lost all affection for the other party. What I saw at the HHM gathering was an angry woman who doesn't believe that her husband was a drug addict who committed suicide, and the fact that she no longer wanted to be in the marriage doesn't mean she can't be genuinely enraged that Howard had something morally awful visited upon him.

[scenario]

20 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Besides his henchmen and a couple of others that are his criminal employees Walt and Jessie who does Gus ever allow in his home?

Bingo!

He's a businessman. He probably has business people over for dinner every once in a while. 

[Cinnabon]

43 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Amazing episode.

The Manuel/Mike scene was perfection.  Mike started the show opining that you can be one side of the law or the other and still be good.  Manuel shoots that morality down.  Whether he's right to, it's not clear - like Chuck, sometimes that moral certainty can be punishing.  Let's face it, Nacho would almost certainly be alive if Manuel were willing to run with his son.  But it's a powerful counterpoint and I'm so glad the scene was there.

The Gus and Reed Diamond scene I completely missed the subtext of first time - feel stupid.  I was expecting it to lead into something to do with Madrigal for some reason and then was confused that it didn't lead anywhere.  Definitely need a rewatch.  The pool shot at the hacienda was terrific though (although definitely is one of the rare cases where people who haven't watched BB will have missed something big).  Gus is still a massive loose end to me though - there are just so many unanswered questions and I still feel we learned significantly more about him in two and a bit seasons of BB as an antagonist than in four seasons as the "and" credit protagonist.

I have a slightly more sympathetic take on Kim and Cheryl Hamlin than many of you.  There is no evidence of Howard's murder.  His body and his murderer's are never going to be found and Kim has absolutely no way to even start to meaningfully unpick the business with Lalo.  All the truth would do at this point is rake up more uncertainty, more fear, more doubt and potentially even invite really bad elements into Cheryl's life.  Instead, she burns her soul to give her what Mike tried to offer Manuel - closure.  It's horrible, but it worked.  She can move on thinking that this was a terrible tragedy and Howard is gone rather than questioning whether he was a drug addict, violently murdered or anything else, without ever being able to get closer to the truth than the word of a confessed con artist.

One beat I loved in that scene was Kim's genuine surprise at Jimmy actually being honest about his jealousy for Howard, something I'd never really thought about too much but makes perfect sense.  It's the only time I think he's ever really admitted the pain he feels about Chuck and I thought it was fascinating that he almost has healed through this greater tragedy.

A brief mention but an interesting one was that Kim called Paige so she must have known Kim's intentions.  Although the structure of the scene meant that it was impossible to see that conversation without blowing the surprise, I really, really hope we get that scene shown in a flashback before the end as I'm absolutely fascinated by the Kim/Paige friendship and would love to see it explored more deeply.

I also loved Kim leaving.  I can't imagine (and will be really sad if) this is the last Kim episode but certainly it felt right.  I thought it was really interesting that Kim's fear that drove her to embrace the crime so completely was losing Jimmy.  However, I think one failing of the season is just that the Howard scam did not feel fun.  The other scams they've done did - Huell, Mesa Verde.  But this one not only felt cruel but hardly ever did it feel really funny.  The car stunt was meant to be funny but didn't really land to me, the country club was good but rarely did we see anything that felt like it was enjoyable in the same way as that montage of delays to Everett Acker's house being demolished in 505.  Also, given how dark Kim went really abruptly in 510, pulling it back to 509 Kim feels... strange.  I just don't know they ever did enough for me to justify that switch in 510.

Time jumps... okay, as time jumps go, this was well-executed.  I'm not a big fan of the genre.  Particularly in a show like this which is so meticulous at plotting the tiniest details, there was a lot that got swallowed up.  Francesca's hopeful face at the start compared to her cynical attitude at the end, the sourcing of the KettleStatue... lots of little details that felt left on the table.  Plus, even this Jimmy I can't see glibly advocating murder.  Now, to be fair, not every loose end has dramatic merit but I hope we have the time to dig into this version of Jimmy.  I did think it was 2008 already with the talk of the public masturbator but I'm glad it's not as there's a lot more to do.

Let's hope Rhea Seehorn isn't gone for too long.

I love this post 😍

[scenario]

14 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Perhaps but the problem with this is that it loses the vicarious feel that I think, judging by some of the writer interview comments, they were going for of "oh this is so much fun - wait, what??"  I felt worried for Kim's moral descent in the Mesa Verde arc but still had a whale of a time watching Saul tear them limb from limb and walk off whistling.  I haven't really rewatched 6A (and I've rewatched most of these episodes a whole lot) so hopefully on revisiting it will click better.

Maybe they were going for the oh this is so much fun vibe but I never felt it. When your trying to help an old guy stay in his home or scam an obnoxious guy out of an expensive bottle of alcohol, I can see the fun. But the intent was to destroy a man's career to get some money a little quicker I just don't get that fun vibe. 

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I really disagree with the conclusion that, from observing one cold interaction, in the morning, before someone departs to work, that Howard was dead to Cheryl. Marriages end, and people are often cold as they are ending. That doesn't necessarily, or even most of the time, mean that the person displaying coldness has lost all affection for the other party. What I saw at the HHM gathering was an angry woman who doesn't believe that her husband was a drug addict who committed suicide, and the fact that she no longer wanted to be in the marriage doesn't mean she can't be genuinely enraged that Howard had something morally awful visited upon him.

What was morally awful? Addiction is a disease and no one should be ashamed of illness. 

[Bannon]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

What was morally awful? Addiction is a disease and no one should be ashamed of illness. 

Cheryl doesn't believe Howard was addicted. The fact that he is being portrayed this way, to the point that cocaine was all over the interior of the Jag, raises her suspicion. Cheryl thinks something terrible has been done to Howard, even if she can't put her finger on the details.

[scenario]

41 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I vehemently disagree about any benefit offered to Cheryl through  "closure", by lying to her, thus making it seem as if Cheryl didn't see signs of Howard being in the throes of a terrible addiction problem. 

I have mixed feelings about the idea of closure. In one way it did help. The official story was that Howard died of an addiction. Addiction is a disease. Believing the story and getting on with her life might be easier on her than trying to find out the real story for years. 

The thing is, what choice did Kim have? She could confess that she and Jimmy did a big scam to destroy Howard for no good reason and then a criminal from Jimmy's past came in out of the blue and killed Howard. But how does that make Howard's widow feel any better? As messed up as she was that night, she may not even remember where she drove to. And she and Jimmy will be dead if she tries to talk so all that is left for the widow is a big conspiracy theory with no evidence to figure out what really happened. 

It's an uncomfortable lie vs the unproveable truth. 

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, scenario said:

I have mixed feelings about the idea of closure. In one way it did help. The official story was that Howard died of an addiction. Addiction is a disease. Believing the story and getting on with her life might be easier on her than trying to find out the real story for years. 

The thing is, what choice did Kim have? She could confess that she and Jimmy did a big scam to destroy Howard for no good reason and then a criminal from Jimmy's past came in out of the blue and killed Howard. But how does that make Howard's widow feel any better? As messed up as she was that night, she may not even remember where she drove to. And she and Jimmy will be dead if she tries to talk so all that is left for the widow is a big conspiracy theory with no evidence to figure out what really happened. 

It's an uncomfortable lie vs the unproveable truth. 

Kim had all sorts of choices. She could go to the Feds, and tell everything she knows, which is quite a bit, in return for witness protection (especially since she doesn't want to practice law anyways). The Feds don't know Lalo is dead; they'd see her eyewitness account of Lalo murdering Howard as being extremely valuable. She could tell them of a house where she was ordered to travel to, to kill someone who answered the door. That blows the cover that Gus has constructed as charitable businessman; why does a drug capo want the person who answers the door killed? Who is this Mike Ehrmantraut? Kim still has plenty of opportunity to do what is right. She just doesn't want to.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Bannon

[scenario]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim had all sorts of choices. She could go to the Feds, and tell everything she knows, which is quite a bit, in return for witness protection (especially since she doesn't want to practice law anyways). The Feds don't know Lalo is dead; they'd see her eyewitness account of Lalo murdering Howard as being extremely valuable. She could tell them of a house where she was ordered to travel to, to kill someone who answered the door. That blows the cover that Gus has constructed as charitable businessman; why does a drug capo want the person who answers the door killed? Who is this Mike Ehrmantraut? Kim still has plenty of opportunity to do what is right. She just doesn't want to.

She could have done a lot of things but none of them would have brought Howard back to life. 

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Or at least not soon enough to sve them.

But addiction, imo, seems like it would imply that his decision-making could have been impaired in ways cancer usually wouldn't. For instance, making a fool of himself in that last meeting. When people find out their attorney was an addict they might very well question whether they got the best work they could have gotten. It does potentially cast doubt on his work.

Absolutely agree. Kim planned to ruin Howard and the vehicle she used was to make him look like a cocaine user. She knew that would be very damaging and it was.

[Bannon]

29 minutes ago, scenario said:

She could have done a lot of things but none of them would have brought Howard back to life. 

That's not the standard for what constitutes ethically acceptable behavior. That's a rationalization people frequently employ in order to justify not doing what is ethically demanded.

[ahmerali]

5 hours ago, Sharper2002 said:

And Eladio didn’t even offer Gus the chance to spend the night at his home. Yes, he said he didn’t want to hear Hector’s bell ringing all night, but I thought it solidified his outsider status. 

I think he knows that Gus doesn't even really want to be there, and the fact that Hector is forced to accept his 'kindness' really sticks in Hector's craw.

[Spartan Girl]

Bob deserves the Emmy just for the breakup scene. I know I shouldn’t have felt bad, we all knew it was coming somehow, but still…damn.

[maystone]

19 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Always good to see Reed Diamond (and an H:LOTS reunion). My take on the David scene was that Gus allowed himself these encounters every so often, followed by leaving with an excuse. 

Damn, Jimmy and Kim pretty much took down an entire law firm. Kim's lie to Cheryl seemed especially unforgivable bc it felt like she was killing Howard's memory. 

THAT was Reed Diamond? I didn't recognize him, and I'm a huge H:LOTS fan. Thanks for pointing that and the reunion out.

I thought Kim said that to Cheryl because it was obvious Cheryl was not going to let Howard's "disappearance/suicide" just lie there. She was going to keep picking at it until someone went back to Step 1 and followed every dangling thread. I thought Kim did it out of self-preservation . . . and also because she's just that good at deception. Someone up-thread said she was putting another nail in the coffin - but it was Kim's coffin. Her curtain call. I thought it was breathtaking how effortless and perfect that lie was. And then she was done. Damn, I'm going to miss Kim Wexler and Rhea Seehorn.

[ahmerali]

You know who else need closure? Kim herself.

She could have just left. She didn't need to stick around to have Jimmy try and talk her out of leaving. She waited for him, so they could have the conversation. I don't think she did it to soothe Jimmy's mind, it was for herself.

[scenario]

24 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Bob deserves the Emmy just for the breakup scene. I know I shouldn’t have felt bad, we all knew it was coming somehow, but still…damn.

It's easy to empathize with someone whose going through a breakup which came from out of the blue from their viewpoint. 

[PeterPirate]

9 hours ago, maystone said:

I thought Kim said that to Cheryl because it was obvious Cheryl was not going to let Howard's "disappearance/suicide" just lie there. She was going to keep picking at it until someone went back to Step 1 and followed every dangling thread. I thought Kim did it out of self-preservation . . . and also because she's just that good at deception. Someone up-thread said she was putting another nail in the coffin - but it was Kim's coffin. Her curtain call. I thought it was breathtaking how effortless and perfect that lie was. And then she was done. Damn, I'm going to miss Kim Wexler and Rhea Seehorn.

Exactly.  Kim crossed the line from unethical behavior to outright criminality when she visited Lalo when he was in lockup.  Fabricating a story for the police and manipulating Cheryl were just furtherances of that criminality.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Starchild]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Kim's not a psychopath. A psychopath wouldn't have had a crisis of conscience like she did in this episode.

Jimmy has been acting more and more like a psychopath over the course of the series, but I don't think he's a genuine one. A psychopath wouldn't have been consumed by guilt about his treatment of Chuck, or had empathy for the elderly Sandpiper residents. 

I wonder if the series finale will have Gene finally coming to terms with everything, with brutal honestly about himself. That seems fitting, live or die.

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Kim finally had something of a "I did it because I liked it" realization

I've already gone through a couple of interpretations of the scene between Kim and Cheryl, and I've been rethinking it yet again. 

Previously, I thought she had her revelation of "too far, it's time to get out of here" when they were on their way down to the parking garage. She already knew it was over and she was leaving, and she gave Jimmy that goodbye kiss.

But now I'm thinking that she made the decision before she shattered Cheryl. She saw Jimmy floundering, figured if this went on much longer he would expose himself out of guilt, and decided to shut Cheryl down then and there to protect him. I don't think she wanted to do it, but she needed to for Jimmy. 

And then it was time to leave, to save both of them.

4 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Maybe Kevin might mention to Cliff that Saul was there at the country club when the cocaine "appeared" in Howard's locker. He'll get an epiphany while on the toilet...... Dum-de-dum-dum.

I was disappointed with how things were left with Cliff. I thought he might make at least a half-hearted effort to give Howard the benefit of the doubt and try to investigate. But it seems not.

3 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I have a slightly more sympathetic take on Kim and Cheryl Hamlin than many of you.  There is no evidence of Howard's murder.  His body and his murderer's are never going to be found and Kim has absolutely no way to even start to meaningfully unpick the business with Lalo.  All the truth would do at this point is rake up more uncertainty, more fear, more doubt and potentially even invite really bad elements into Cheryl's life.  Instead, she burns her soul to give her what Mike tried to offer Manuel - closure.  It's horrible, but it worked

I see it differently. I agree she burned her soul, but not to give Cheryl closure. It was to give Jimmy cover.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Kim had all sorts of choices. She could go to the Feds, and tell everything she knows, which is quite a bit, in return for witness protection (especially since she doesn't want to practice law anyways). The Feds don't know Lalo is dead; they'd see her eyewitness account of Lalo murdering Howard as being extremely valuable. She could tell them of a house where she was ordered to travel to, to kill someone who answered the door. That blows the cover that Gus has constructed as charitable businessman; why does a drug capo want the person who answers the door killed? Who is this Mike Ehrmantraut? Kim still has plenty of opportunity to do what is right. She just doesn't want to.

Because all of that would implicate Jimmy and she wants to protect him.

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Bob deserves the Emmy just for the breakup scene. I know I shouldn’t have felt bad, we all knew it was coming somehow, but still…damn.

Right? OMG I think that's the best acting I've ever seen him do. Up there with the brothers' first confrontation.

Both times it's when the person he loves most utterly betrays him. 

No wonder Saul decides never to really care about anyone again.

[Chaos Theory]

If “Fun And Games” is the last time we see Kim Wexler (not in the Gene timeline) or Gus Fring (Before Breaking Bad meshes into the timeline which I think might actually happen sometime in the next four episodes) then I am ok with it.   Both walked away from a relationship because of what that relationship represented for their heart….and soul.

[Armchair Critic]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

In BB didn't Gus have children's toys in his house? Since viewers knew about Max, I think there was the theory that Gus was either creating a facade of a married, family man or that he was actually marriedy, for whatever reason (love or convenience). 

I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but I thought when Gus had Jesse over and served him the soup he made, Gus said something like his family didn't like the soup. Maybe he let people assume he had a wife and kids?

[Armchair Critic]

4 hours ago, Colorado David said:

I think Rhea has Skylar syndrome - the actress is good, but the characters are written dislikable enough we can't separate the character.

Skylar didn't bother me, I couldn't stand Marie.

[ShadowFacts]

18 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but I thought when Gus had Jesse over and served him the soup he made, Gus said something like his family didn't like the soup. Maybe he let people assume he had a wife and kids?

I saw that episode recently, it was Walt he had invited and he did say "the kids" won't eat the stew he makes. Could be grandkids but seeing the home security measures he has in this timeline, I fail to see how he would think it was safe to have family there. Doesn't seem prudent for such a controlled and meticulous man.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, scenario said:

I have mixed feelings about the idea of closure. In one way it did help. The official story was that Howard died of an addiction. Addiction is a disease. Believing the story and getting on with her life might be easier on her than trying to find out the real story for years. 

But that wouldn't give her closure either. It would just change the question from "What really happened to Howard?" to "How did I miss that?" She's never going to totally believe it because she has no reason to. If he was really an addict she would probably, upon looking back, see signs of it. His wife saw zero evidence of anything while Cliff saw cocaine fall out of is locker, Howard throwing a prostitute out of his car and Howard with dialated pupils within a couple of weeks? That's suspicious. 

3 hours ago, scenario said:

The thing is, what choice did Kim have? She could confess that she and Jimmy did a big scam to destroy Howard for no good reason and then a criminal from Jimmy's past came in out of the blue and killed Howard. But how does that make Howard's widow feel any better? As messed up as she was that night, she may not even remember where she drove to. And she and Jimmy will be dead if she tries to talk so all that is left for the widow is a big conspiracy theory with no evidence to figure out what really happened. It's an uncomfortable lie vs the unproveable truth. 

LOL. Sorry, it seems kind of odd to think that Kim was even considering telling the truth and then wouldn't because it wouldn't make the widow feel better. The widow would know she was right, she would know what happened to Howard. If she believes what Kim is saying she knows what happened to Howard and feels guilty about it. The truth here wouldn't be unprovable if Kim was confessing it.

3 hours ago, scenario said:

She could have done a lot of things but none of them would have brought Howard back to life. 

But that's pretty irrelevent here. Besides which, I'm not even sure Kim would have brought Howard back to life if she could--not if it meant everyone knowing the truth.

[laprin]

23 hours ago, Sharper2002 said:

Assuming this is the end of Gus and Mike? I

Not according to Breaking Bad. 

[Cinnabon]

22 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

I know this belongs in the media thread, but this is a phenomenal recap of tonight's episode.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-recaps/better-call-saul-recap-fun-games-1383100/

It also clarifies how far we jumped in the timeline -- still not Breaking Bad timeline:

(*) The license plate on Saul’s Cadillac has a registration renewal sticker dated 2005. So unless he’s driving around with an expired registration — not worth the hassle, especially when he can send get poor Francesca to handle such a detail — that puts this scene only a year or so after Kim walks out, while Walt won’t try to hire Saul until 2008. So all sorts of timeline shenanigans could be possible in these concluding chapters.  
 

Just read this article and it really was excellent. Note to anyone else who gets blocked by Rolling Stones’ paywall - you can circumvent it by accessing the article via Twitter.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Dobian]

For the past couple of seasons I believed that Kim's fate was to either be killed or end up in witness protection.  It turned out that she finally realized that she and Jimmy were bad news together after hitting rock bottom.  Then they flashed forward to the Breaking Bad timeline.

Nacho's dad hit Mike with some hard Truth.

Gus at the bar was fascinating.  It was like watching Batman turn back into Bruce Wayne.  The sinister cartel boss removing his mask to enjoy a glass of wine and engage in foreplay conversation with the bar manager, looking playful and delighted and innocent, then suddenly deciding that the time for this enjoyable diversion was done, and you see him put the mask back on and become Gus Fring again.  Chilling.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Dobian

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But that wouldn't give her closure either. It would just change the question from "What really happened to Howard?" to "How did I miss that?" She's never going to totally believe it because she has no reason to. If he was really an addict she would probably, upon looking back, see signs of it. His wife saw zero evidence of anything while Cliff saw cocaine fall out of is locker, Howard throwing a prostitute out of his car and Howard with dialated pupils within a couple of weeks? That's suspicious. 

Unfortunately for Howard, he never knew Kim was gunning for him. He told his wife about everything going on, but blamed it on Jimmy. When Kim spoke up, she had credibility with Cheryl that Jimmy just didn't (along with a great acting job).

If Howard had implicated Kim as well, that conversation could have gone quite differently.

[aghst]

A few episodes ago, they showed life at home for Howard.  Seemed like the wife wasn't too fond of him.  Howard even admitted he had marital problems didn't he?

Now she's the grieving widow?

So Kim figuratively twists the knife one last time and then she immediately develop a conscience?  She had rating hate for him, to sustain the big con they planned and executed.

Suddenly just decided to tap out?  Hmm, sure she finally saw herself and recognized that together, they hurt people.

Meanwhile, heartbroken Jimmy goes all-in on Saul Goodman because his sweetie left him?

Hector with another lesson on how to win friends and influence people ... NOT.  Even the cousins weren't buying it.

He can't utter a word but he made himself a nuisance to Don Eladio just with the bell.

Well he at least conditioned Gus to it and leads to his downfall.

Edited July 20, 2022 by aghst

[BK1978]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:23 PM, chick binewski said:

Always good to see Reed Diamond (and an H:LOTS reunion).

Those were my thoughts exactly.  I loved Homicide and so I sort of geek out whenever I see two Homicide actors interacting on other shows.  Though if I am being honest, the last time I saw any episodes of Homicide was when they first aired, so I honestly could not recall if Giancarlo Esposito and Reed Diamond were on the show at the same time.

I liked this episode, sure it was a sort of filler episode but it did give us more insight into characters like Gus and Mike.

[Cinnabon]

36 minutes ago, BK1978 said:

Those were my thoughts exactly.  I loved Homicide and so I sort of geek out whenever I see two Homicide actors interacting on other shows.  Though if I am being honest, the last time I saw any episodes of Homicide was when they first aired, so I honestly could not recall if Giancarlo Esposito and Reed Diamond were on the show at the same time.

I liked this episode, sure it was a sort of filler episode but it did give us more insight into characters like Gus and Mike.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0226771/mediaviewer/rm180342785?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Simon Boccanegra]

12 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Every great show has a bad actor...in The Sopranos it was the son actor Robert Lier (BTW he isn't even acting anymore)

Jamie-Lynn Sigler wasn't much better. The main reason I always put it off when I consider watching The Sopranos all the way through again is the AJ and/or Meadow material.

But I think the whole BCS ensemble is first rate, decidedly including Rhea.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Who invited a difficult conversation at the wake?  Why, that would be Cheryl.

Saul offered a gracious and appropriate sorrow for her loss.  What does she do?

She lights into him.  Totally inappropriate. 

Neither Saul nor Kim were looking for a fight.  Cheryl threw the first punch.  It's understandable that Cheryl chose to confront Saul.  But, that doesn't make it right.  Too bad, so sad that she ended up being knocked out.

[BetyBee]

15 hours ago, scenario said:

I think he really liked the guy. He just wanted to hear him talk. He didn't care about what. Gus love the enthusiasm in his voice. His love of life that Gus was slowly losing in himself.

It's like that in a lot of relationships. Some times you just like to hear the sound of your partners voice. They weren't partners but Gus was dreaming of it. 

I think Gus was thinking of taking the sommelier home for the special occasion wine. But after he thought about it, he realized that he couldn't be that close to someone again. He probably won't ever return to that wine bar. No fun for Gus, only business. 

[nodorothyparker]

Reading that Rolling Stone review linked upthread, I was really struck by this too: 

Quote

And it sure looks like Jimmy’s cut of the Sandpiper settlement — the purported reason for the scam against Howard, even though we knew from the start Kim was motivated by something far less noble — went into financing at least part of Saul’s lavish new lifestyle, rather than funding criminal defense for the poor. It was all for nothing — less than nothing, given all the carnage Kim realizes they have left in their wake. They publicly humiliated Chuck in a way that fueled the worst aspects of his mental illness, making him feel like he’d be better off burning to death than living in a world where Jimmy outwitted him. They ruined Howard’s reputation simply because they could, maneuvering him into a place where Lalo would kill him. They brought down HHM entirely. Again and again, they have done things that would have once seemed unthinkable to either or both of them, from Jimmy deliberately placing himself in an assassin’s path (and chasing that experience with a warm gulp of his own piss) to Kim walking up to a stranger’s front door with the intention of shooting him.

However, the last four episodes go, this show has this in common with its mother show. It was all for nothing, all that death and destruction and loss of souls or any better intentions they may have at least believed they were starting out with. They did all of this and ended up with nothing to show for it except Saul effectively alone in a tacky strip mall office associating with other criminals.

[PeterPirate]

Here is a reaction channel that I found after last week's episodes.  

I think they are Serbian.  They are very intelligent and use a good amount of profanity.  As the thumbnail shows, however, this episode made them weep.  

Their videos are very long so I jump to the good parts of an episode.  The waterworks start flowing at the 32-minute mark.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Lalo Lives]

14 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I really disagree with the conclusion that, from observing one cold interaction, in the morning, before someone departs to work, that Howard was dead to Cheryl. Marriages end, and people are often cold as they are ending. That doesn't necessarily, or even most of the time, mean that the person displaying coldness has lost all affection for the other party. What I saw at the HHM gathering was an angry woman who doesn't believe that her husband was a drug addict who committed suicide, and the fact that she no longer wanted to be in the marriage doesn't mean she can't be genuinely enraged that Howard had something morally awful visited upon him.

Agreed.

[Lalo Lives]

10 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Just read this article and it really was excellent. Note to anyone else who gets blocked by Rolling Stones’ paywall - you can circumvent it by accessing the article via Twitter.

Good article.

[SimplexFish]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

A few episodes ago, they showed life at home for Howard.  Seemed like the wife wasn't too fond of him.  Howard even admitted he had marital problems didn't he?

Now she's the grieving widow?

So Kim figuratively twists the knife one last time and then she immediately develop a conscience?  She had rating hate for him, to sustain the big con they planned and executed.

Suddenly just decided to tap out?  Hmm, sure she finally saw herself and recognized that together, they hurt people.

Meanwhile, heartbroken Jimmy goes all-in on Saul Goodman because his sweetie left him?

Hector with another lesson on how to win friends and influence people ... NOT.  Even the cousins weren't buying it.

He can't utter a word but he made himself a nuisance to Don Eladio just with the bell.

Well he at least conditioned Gus to it and leads to his downfall.

Well said!

[SimplexFish]

3 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Jamie-Lynn Sigler wasn't much better. The main reason I always put it off when I consider watching The Sopranos all the way through again is the AJ and/or Meadow material.

But I think the whole BCS ensemble is first rate, decidedly including Rhea.

I agree about Meadow as well...

And for people that like Rhea...good!  We are all here to throw in our two cents about a show that we are all passionate about so I certainly respect everyone options (even when they are wrong just joking!) 

Edited July 20, 2022 by SimplexFish

[diebartdie]

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I saw that episode recently, it was Walt he had invited and he did say "the kids" won't eat the stew he makes. Could be grandkids but seeing the home security measures he has in this timeline, I fail to see how he would think it was safe to have family there. Doesn't seem prudent for such a controlled and meticulous man.

If we assume Gus is bi-sexual then *maybe* he married a woman and they had kids but does any of that seem consonant with everything we've seen of Gus? As horrible as Gus really is, the man is nothing if not meticulous and true to himself. I believe Gus is gay and would never put on a beard. I also believe Gus could NEVER tolerate children actually living in his home or even visiting his home. Too messy, too unpredictable and uncontrollable. Nope, kids would NEVER be part of Gus' life, the man doesn't even have a cat. Everything any visitor saw was perfectly orchestrated to create some curated fiction in the visitor's mind. Gus was living in a closet that was nestled within a safe that was buried in 20 feet of concrete. 

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is a reaction channel that I found after last week's episodes. 

I've found quite a few episodes of this show to be very moving and Howard's sudden death really shook me hard but the breakup screne between Kim and Jimmy had be absolutely sobbing, I've never seen anything quite like it. Some of the most incredible acting ever. This show is just amazing in every regard.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I think Gus was thinking of taking the sommelier home for the special occasion wine. But after he thought about it, he realized that he couldn't be that close to someone again. He probably won't ever return to that wine bar. No fun for Gus, only business. 

I'm pretty sure the "special occasion wine" (it sells for $3500.00-5000 a bottle in today's market) Gus spoke of was the wine he intends to celebrate with after the last of his south of the border enemies are killed for his ultimate revenge for Max. Now I'm wondering if the sommelier saying that he would like to celebrate with that wine as well made Gus feel guilty (because of Max) and that is why he abruptly left without saying goodbye?

Edited July 20, 2022 by SimplexFish

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Who invited a difficult conversation at the wake?  Why, that would be Cheryl.

Saul offered a gracious and appropriate sorrow for her loss.  What does she do?

She lights into him.  Totally inappropriate. 

Neither Saul nor Kim were looking for a fight.  Cheryl threw the first punch.  It's understandable that Cheryl chose to confront Saul.  But, that doesn't make it right.  Too bad, so sad that she ended up being knocked out.

I'm on Cheryl's side. She knew Howard, probably better than anyone else. She knew he was not a drug user, so she knew that the death, the suicide, everything, didn't make sense. But Cliff wasn't questioning it -- He had his biases re drug users -- and no one else was either. She knew that Jimmy was harassing Howard. I'm sure she knew first-hand about the bowling balls on the car. If someone would do that, who knows what else that person would do. 

So she's supposed to bite her tongue when faced with the man who was targeting her husband and was possibly responsible for his death? Should she think, "It is inappropriate to question this man at my husband's memorial, so I'll wait until later and visit him at his home." Uh, no. I think she was probably a lawyer, so questioning is in her DNA. Was it "inappropriate?" She did not raise her voice and make a scene. It was just the four of them. She was asking reasonable questions. Their marriage was in trouble, but she knew Howard and was trying to make sense of what happened. A "suicide" is not something one readily accepts if it makes no sense.

[SimplexFish]

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm on Cheryl's side. She knew Howard, probably better than anyone else. She knew he was not a drug user, so she knew that the death, the suicide, everything, didn't make sense. But Cliff wasn't questioning it -- He had his biases re drug users -- and no one else was either. She knew that Jimmy was harassing Howard. I'm sure she knew first-hand about the bowling balls on the car. If someone would do that, who knows what else that person would do. 

So she's supposed to bite her tongue when faced with the man who was targeting her husband and was possibly responsible for his death? Should she think, "It is inappropriate to question this man at my husband's memorial, so I'll wait until later and visit him at his home." Uh, no. I think she was probably a lawyer, so questioning is in her DNA. Was it "inappropriate?" She did not raise her voice and make a scene. It was just the four of them. She was asking reasonable questions. Their marriage was in trouble, but she knew Howard and was trying to make sense of what happened. A "suicide" is not something one readily accepts if it makes no sense.

100% correct