S01.E05: V

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Chase and Harper face decisive tests. Zoe finds a new path forward as old stories resurface.

Airing Thursday, July 7, 2022.

[QQQQ]

Dang, I keep falling asleep during the flashback stories. And unfortunately those seem to be about half the show now.

[AimingforYoko]

I like that they dispensed with the elephant in the room in the first scene. They didn't treat Harper like an idiot...or us.

So Joel Grey put Emily in Harper's office. No wonder she passed muster.

I don't mind the flashbacks, it's either that or more exposition, and we're already getting a lot of that on this show. Can't say a bad word about the performances, though. Everybody's pulling their weight.

[LoveLeigh]

This show went off the rails for me. It got way too kooky. And as usual, I am lost. Who is the guy whose door Zoe knocked on?

Joel Grey is Dan's father? Huh?

The first two or even three episodes were great.... but it weirded itself out in absurdity. 

This show is as hard to follow as Westworld. Well, almost. 

[SnarkAttack]

58 minutes ago, QQQQ said:

Dang, I keep falling asleep during the flashback stories. And unfortunately those seem to be about half the show now.

Agreed.  Not interested in the flashbacks.  I don't  mind a slow burn, Better Call Saul does it so well, but this is slooow.  The conversations take forever and are overly dramatic. Ugh.

[Auntie Anxiety]

I really wanted to like this show, but it’s becoming a real mess. And to make matters worse, it’s a boring mess, and now the dogs are gone.....

[LoveLeigh]

22 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

I really wanted to like this show, but it’s becoming a real mess. And to make matters worse, it’s a boring mess, and now the dogs are gone.....

That is a version of what I said above. It started out so great but deteriorated into absurd nonsense. The whole Zoe thing, with her going along with the crazy crap, is too much. She is an idiot. Dan is a kook and Emily is ridiculous. It's all just too bizarre now.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

Joel Grey is Dan's father? Huh?

I'm not sure that's supposed to be literal, as Grey also said Harper was his son. I think it was more an indication of how close they all were. After all, he was the person who gave Chase the name of the inept assassin.

It cracks me up that Zoe decided to go to Morocco with Dan. Did she not have a job? She's got half of Dan's money. Go live your life away from this madness, lady! If it turns out she is some sort of CIA/FBI plant, I will be furious.

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It cracks me up that Zoe decided to go to Morocco with Dan. Did she not have a job? She's got half of Dan's money. Go live your life away from this madness, lady! If it turns out she is some sort of CIA/FBI plant, I will be furious.

Zoe is brain dead. She witnessed Dan's attempted murder and she knows his whole life is a hotbed of criminal turmoil and she goes off with him. How lucky for him he rented the exact right hiding spot from the biggest kook he ever met... lmao. 

[Kirkydee]

I considered Zoe the bored middle aged woman who's feels like she's shaking up her bland existence with some excitement.  She'd rather go to this exotic location with this unpredictable street savvy guy than struggle trying to rent out a room depending on alimony checks.  

Why did it take Harper soooo long to figure, or at least suspect, Emily is Dan's daughter.  The age and complexion should've been a red flag for a veteran agent.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, in the plane ride conversation, Harper said he knew she was Emily from the get go.  So, why did he say in his conversation with Chase in episode 1 or 2 that he would hunt down Chase’s daughter?  That threat, which was just between them, makes no sense if he already knew where and who she was. 

It seems the show started strong, but the details weren’t thought out very well.  It just seems silly now.  Even the dialogue with Chase in the early days with his wife seems ridiculous.  All the talk about how she knows the location of the super secret underground valuables, but she had some convoluted theory of how it wouldn’t help her country…..blah blah……too contrived, when it didn’t have to be. I’m frustrated that they had to ruin a very good story.  Oh well, two more episodes left…..I might see it through.   Why didn’t someone tell them the later episode writing was not good?  Ugh………

I think I might be more amused to have gotten  off at the doggy hotel.  🐕‍🦺😆

[WritinMan]

This show started out great, but I have hard time staying focused now. It's all gone a bit goofy. Too convoluted and unbelievable.

[CrystalBlue]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think I might be more amused to have gotten  off at the doggy hotel.  🐕‍🦺😆

I will miss Carol and Dave, but at least they're safe and will be well looked after.  Zoe has gotten on my last nerve now.  Why did she run away with Dan, so she'll have someone to bitch to and try to save/change?  No wonder her ex-husband shorts her on the alimony checks!

The plane ride Angela/Emily speech.  Ugh.

[aghst]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, in the plane ride conversation, Harper said he knew she was Emily from the get go.  So, why did he say in his conversation with Chase in episode 1 or 2 that he would hunt down Chase’s daughter?  That threat, which was just between them, makes no sense if he already knew where and who she was.  
 

It seems the show started strong, but the details weren’t thought out very well.  It just seems silly now.  Even the dialogue with Chase in the early days with his wife seems ridiculous.  All the talk about how she knows the location of the super secret underground valuables, but she had some convoluted theory of how it wouldn’t help her country…..blah blah……too contrived, when it didn’t have to be. I’m frustrated that they had to ruin a very good story.  Oh well, two more episodes left…..I might see it through.   Why didn’t someone tell them the later episode writing was not good?  Ugh………

I thought Harper figured it out after Julian the assassin told him about the mole.  Apparently Angela/Emily and Joel Grey and the assassin were the ones who knew that Harper hired the assassin to kill Chase.

Yeah you had these voiceovers from Abbey talking about dark places where the light and sound or voices can't reach.

Then young Abbey reveals that she has been helping the Soviets kill off rival warlords so Hamzad could take power as soon as the Soviets left.  Talk about darkness.

But then she leaned of all these mineral riches and decided Hamzad can't know about that, because he would become too powerful too fast.

It would have been okay if Hamzad is president of Afghanistan but not the king.

Choose a lane lady.

We know that the Taliban took over, between the time the Soviets left in 1989 and 9/11/2001, when the Taliban's complicity caused US to invade Afghanistan.

So Hamzad was never in power in Afghanistan in the period when Abbey and Chase ran away, which was April 1987?

But Hamzad got rich and apparently pulls a lot of strings in the US govt.

They're twisting to justify Zoe still being in the series, now she has some superpower so Chase asks her to come with him on a possible suicide mission for him to kill Hamzad.

With just 2 episodes left, there won't be a resolution, maybe old Hamzad makes an appearance but they won't be done with him until at least the second season.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, does Chase really think Zoey has super powers or is that part of his grand plan?

[ferjy]

I’m losing interest as well. I don’t mind a slow burn, but the constant babbling! They obviously have an “intellectual” or two on the writing team that think it makes for a smart drama. It doesn’t. Even the fabulous John Lithgow seems to have a perplexed look on his face as he delivers the lines. I’ll hang in there since it’s almost done, but I won’t like it! 😄

[aghst]

First two episodes set up some high expectations, especially for action scenes and tension.

Maybe that's what people are missing?

I think the dialog is still pretty cracking, like the first conversation between Harper and Chase and now Harper and Angela.

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

I think the dialog is still pretty cracking, like the first conversation between Harper and Chase and now Harper and Angela.

Agree. I thought the whole, long scene on the plane was not a second too long. Compelling, I say.

[WaltersHair]

I've loved the series so far and that includes the dialogue.

[blixie]

Quote

So, why did he say in his conversation with Chase in episode 1 or 2 that he would hunt down Chase’s daughter?  That threat, which was just between them, makes no sense if he already knew where and who she was. 

I didn't think he did say that, I think he only realized after the guy said you have a mole. But I think it would have been better and made more sense since he threatened a daughter he shouldn't even know exists, I assumed he did so as a tell: I know who she is and where she is aka quite literally within my reach.

[Rickster]

19 hours ago, aghst said:

First two episodes set up some high expectations, especially for action scenes and tension.

Maybe that's what people are missing?

I think the dialog is still pretty cracking, like the first conversation between Harper and Chase and now Harper and Angela.

I don’t need action scenes, but some more tension would help.

I guess everyone’s opinion on the style of this show varies, but I find the dialogue often pretentious and ponderous, ponderously delivered and painful to watch. I am also unimpressed by the actress playing Angela/Emily, but maybe she’s just not as skilled at delivering bad dialogue as John Lithgow.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Rickster

[SunnyBeBe]

I rewatched this last episode,  it cleared up some misperceptions I had about when Harper learned about Emily.  🤨 Still, much of it seems too implausible and I struggle to make sense of it.  
 

So, when Harper and Emily were told they had 1 hour to get on a plane per the orders of Hamzad, weren’t they at an FBI office?  I thought it was official. So, now Joel Grey says Harper is missing.  It just seems nonsensical. We are just told to accept Hamzad is totally in charge of the US government and its agencies….As Joe Grey said, we don’t know why, but he’s got something on someone, so we must do what his says……?……  And, the best person to help with this international problem is the small time assassin, who failed with Chase already? 
 

Does anyone know what deal Zoey brokered at the doorstep of the man she interrupted from his dinner?  Is Chase really impressed  with Zoey’s  talents or just patronizing her to buy time?  
 

What is the dead wife saying to Chase while he waits in the car?  Ominous words, but they don’t make a lot of sense.  The last sentence did about him leaving her, but not the first part.  

Edited July 10, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[ferjy]

4 hours ago, Rickster said:

I find the dialogue often pretentious and ponderous, ponderously delivered and painful to watch. I am also unimpressed by the actress playing Angela/Emily,

Agree with you a hundred percent. Pretentious is exactly what came to my mind. And much too wordy for what needs to be said. When Emily started one of her stories, I thought, Oh fck, here we go again, knowing it would be an endless diatribe. I also agree about the actress. Although even John Lithgow looks uncomfortable delivering the lines. It has nothing to do with wanting action. I veer away from action scenes, even zip by shoot’em ups. This is just bad clunky dialogue and feels artificial. 

[bankerchick]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:35 AM, aghst said:

With just 2 episodes left, there won't be a resolution, maybe old Hamzad makes an appearance but they won't be done with him until at least the second season.

There's going to be a second season??  Not for this girl, unless things pick up dramatically in the next two episodes.  This already seems like it would have been a really good three-part miniseries and the only actors who I even like in this are Bridges and Lithgow.

[jenn31]

5 hours ago, Rickster said:

I guess everyone’s opinion on the style of this show varies, but I find the dialogue often pretentious and ponderous, ponderously delivered and painful to watch.

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Agree with you a hundred percent. Pretentious is exactly what came to my mind. And much too wordy for what needs to be said. When Emily started one of her stories, I thought, Oh fck, here we go again, knowing it would be an endless diatribe. I also agree about the actress. Although even John Lithgow looks uncomfortable delivering the lines. It has nothing to do with wanting action. I veer away from action scenes, even zip by shoot’em ups. This is just bad clunky dialogue and feels artificial. 

Another one here that rolls her eyes at the dialogue. They’re trying to make the show seem smarter than it is. 

On 7/9/2022 at 11:34 AM, aghst said:

I think the dialog is still pretty cracking, like the first conversation between Harper and Chase and now Harper and Angela.

I found it incredibly cringe worthy, especially the exchange between Harper and Angela. The conversation with Harper and Chase only worked because of the master actors. I would have been long gone if it weren’t for Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. 

[ferjy]

4 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

The conversation with Harper and Chase only worked because of the master actors. I would have been long gone if it weren’t for Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. 

They hired great actors but forgot to write to their standards!

[Auntie Anxiety]

39 minutes ago, ferjy said:

They hired great actors but forgot to write to their standards!

With regard to the dialogue, when I start saying to myself, “Who talks like that?”,  it’s not a good thing.

[aghst]

18 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

With regard to the dialogue, when I start saying to myself, “Who talks like that?”,  it’s not a good thing.

When Harper was explaining to Chase that there are orders to capture him and put him on a plane, given the size of the plane, it's probably to send him to Hamzad.

There was also talk about surveillance methods, with Harper telling him that technology has gotten more advanced since he was in the game.

Those sound believable to me, how spies would talk about their reasoning and their assessments.

These are older, well-educated people.  How else would they speak?  Are they suppose to talk like Archie Bunker or some common man?

Same thing with the convo between Chase and Angela, between a mentor and father figure.  These are both professionals who've attained high levels of achievement, very well-educated.  Harper feels betrayed despite years of loyalty.

Their dialog didn't sound pretentious to me at all.  Instead, they didn't get overly emotional, as some people might.   Instead they described their complicated situations and conveyed emotional complexity.

Harper wasn't one-note, he could have been all about grievance and betrayal.

Simpletons may not come across as "pretentious" but these people are not suppose to be simpletons.

[cardigirl]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:50 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, in the plane ride conversation, Harper said he knew she was Emily from the get go.  So, why did he say in his conversation with Chase in episode 1 or 2 that he would hunt down Chase’s daughter?  That threat, which was just between them, makes no sense if he already knew where and who she was. 

It seems the show started strong, but the details weren’t thought out very well.  It just seems silly now.  Even the dialogue with Chase in the early days with his wife seems ridiculous.  All the talk about how she knows the location of the super secret underground valuables, but she had some convoluted theory of how it wouldn’t help her country…..blah blah……too contrived, when it didn’t have to be. I’m frustrated that they had to ruin a very good story.  Oh well, two more episodes left…..I might see it through.   Why didn’t someone tell them the later episode writing was not good?  Ugh………

I think I might be more amused to have gotten  off at the doggy hotel.  🐕‍🦺😆

I understood Harper to have only figured out who Emily/Angela was just before they boarded the plane.  So she fooled him for quite some time. Thus his anger in the those scenes on the plane and in the records office.  He'd been played by both Bote and Chase. I had hoped that the story would reveal that Harper had known all along, but apparently he had not. 

Chase was aware of how far his daughter had risen in her career and also Morgan Bote was aware of her, because he helped Chase hide her there. 

Bote seems to be trying to decide which "son" he's going to back in this big power play. Maybe he's hoping to get rid of both. 

I wonder what Zoe said/did to poor Zachary, to get him to go along with Dan's plan. 

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I rewatched this last episode,  it cleared up some misperceptions I had about when Harper learned about Emily.  🤨 Still, much of it seems too implausible and I struggle to make sense of it.  
 

So, when Harper and Emily were told they had 1 hour to get on a plane per the orders of Hamzad, weren’t they at an FBI office?  I thought it was official. So, now Joel Grey says Harper is missing.  It just seems nonsensical. We are just told to accept Hamzad is totally in charge of the US government and its agencies….As Joe Grey said, we don’t know why, but he’s got something on someone, so we must do what his says……?……  And, the best person to help with this international problem is the small time assassin, who failed with Chase already? 
 

Does anyone know what deal Zoey brokered at the doorstep of the man she interrupted from his dinner?  Is Chase really impressed  with Zoey’s  talents or just patronizing her to buy time?  
 

What is the dead wife saying to Chase while he waits in the car?  Ominous words, but they don’t make a lot of sense.  The last sentence did about him leaving her, but not the first part.  

I think Chase is really impressed with Zoe’s potential. But he doesn’t want to be alone. So he may be exaggerating what he sees—but still seeing something. His Dick may have a vote as well. It’s a democracy and his dead wife weighs in, too. 

the lawyer presented Hamzad’s terms and they left on the plane. I don’t think Harper told anyone they were leaving the country. 
 

We don’t know what Zoe said, yet. 
 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Affogato

[blixie]

Quote

 weren’t they at an FBI office?

I mean, no. They weren't they were in a hotel bar. 

Quote

I don’t think Harper told anyone they were leaving the country. 

Well they had no idea where they were going in country or not. The first meeting with Hamzad's lawyer was official and in the FBI office, but when Harper begged her she called Hamzad and said meet at hotel bar at 7pm. There she said you will get on plane at this location and that was it for information they assumed or hoped they would be meeting Hamzad in person.

I do not understand why the other smug as fuck FBI guy went to the second illicit meeting at all, but then was like I can't get on that plane. The second meeting was already off sides/rule breaking so wtf just get on the plan Judgy McJudgerson.

Edited July 11, 2022 by blixie

[SlovakPrincess]

Why can't anyone on this show talk like a normal person?   And this show is just entirely too talk-y.  I had to start fast forwarding through some of ghost Abbey's droning on and on at Chase in the car ...

I've liked Alia Shawkat in other roles, but this role is doing her no favors.  Angela / Emily could and should be a fascinating character: an agent devoted to her job, her secretive but loving dad, and her supportive mentor of a boss, who realizes late in the game she's been played like a pawn.  But having her know almost everything from the first episode, and deliver almost every line in a monotone, bleeds all the drama out of the situation.  And we're left with the sort of laughable, whiny "how could you?!" back and forth between her and Harper on the plane -- and not even about the secrets they've been keeping, but hurt feelings about the way they chose to finally reveal what they know!  Ridiculous!  They're seasoned agents on their way to confront a warlord who's been nursing a bitter grudge for decades ... and they're wasting time wallowing in their feelings about stuff they've known or suspected for a while, rather than trying to make a plan.  Good grief.  

Also, the sad, sad music of Chase putting his murder dogs in a dog hotel. 🙄  Hope the murder dogs don't accidentally get the murder signal while they're in the kennel!

Bote being the ultimate puppet master is kind of interesting, i guess.  

So, I guess Zoe is just a weirdo who finds Chase intriguing even after the kidnapping and likes having this new excitement in her life.   So much for her devotion to her son, who she may never see again if she keeps this up!  And I still find this relationship tedious ...

Edited July 12, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[Zaffy]

I am not reinventing  the wheel here, as most of you have  already pointed: people in real life do NOT talk like this, intellectuals or not, spies or not, assassins or not.

Except if:

• They record an audio book
• Play in theater 
• Are high
• Are deranged 
• Are therapists that want to kill their patients with boredom

They have a very strong cast, good direction and cinematography and this is what keeps me still interested. Cause the dialogue is painful.

I cannot find Dan a likable character, the guy was practically a serial killer using other's war for an excuse to kill people. And so far I am not convinced about their great love that made them escape Afganistan. But, the dots are not yet filled, since I am pretty sure there are more painfully long flashback scenes to come.

Harper should have suspected Angela/Emily if only for the way she talks. 

In series like Old man or Americans, it is amazing that people in situations like this decide to have children. I find it extremely selfish and dangerous. What did this people expected to happen to their daughter as she would grow older and learn the truth? I mean apart from becoming frakked up.
I want to throw something at the TV every time Dan says he cares about his daughter. Really mate? Well, too late!

The killer dogs are the MVPs so far, basically cause they can not talk!

[SlovakPrincess]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

In series like Old man or Americans, it is amazing that people in situations like this decide to have children. I find it extremely selfish and dangerous. What did this people expected to happen to their daughter as she would grow older and learn the truth? I mean apart from becoming frakked up.
I want to throw something at the TV every time Dan says he cares about his daughter. Really mate? Well, too late!

At least in the Americans, Elizabeth and Philip had basically been brainwashed since their early teen years and had kids because they were told to create a normal-looking family. WTF was Dan and Abbey’s excuse??   Well, I do wonder if we’re going to find out Emily wasn’t planned …
 

And not only does Dan try to raise a kid, he tells her his dangerous secrets, pulls strings to get her into the FBI, and has her act as his mole. Ridiculous.  

[aghst]

I still think there's a chance Emily is really Hamzad's daughter, not Dan's..

[bioprof]

I also was thinking Emily was Hamzed’s daughter….and Zoe actually is a “highly trained operative”……and maybe the writers will eventually produce dialog that actually moves the plot ( whatever that is ) forward. Very disappointed…I was looking forward to this but it just fell apart.

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

At least in the Americans, Elizabeth and Philip had basically been brainwashed since their early teen years and had kids because they were told to create a normal-looking family. WTF was Dan and Abbey’s excuse??   Well, I do wonder if we’re going to find out Emily wasn’t planned …
 

And not only does Dan try to raise a kid, he tells her his dangerous secrets, pulls strings to get her into the FBI, and has her act as his mole. Ridiculous.  

Remember abbey wanted to grow up in (was it) cleveland? Still possible the defection happened because she was pregnant. To give her child a better life. 

[bankerchick]

On 7/12/2022 at 5:33 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Why can't anyone on this show talk like a normal person?   And this show is just entirely too talk-y.  I had to start fast forwarding through some of ghost Abbey's droning on and on at Chase in the car ...

Because otherwise they wouldn't be able to drag a 3-hour story into 6 hours.

I hope Dan is able to get his dogs back, or that they hear the imaginary dog-whistle and are able to escape.

[steph369]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:12 PM, aghst said:

These are older, well-educated people.  How else would they speak?  

I know a lot of older, well-educated people, and intelligent to boot. None talk that way. 

[BeckyThatcher]

Angela’s little speech about “love” should have all of her “Dads” sending her to therapy.

[smartymarty]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:01 PM, cardigirl said:

I wonder what Zoe said/did to poor Zachary, to get him to go along with Dan's plan. 

This! We get this whole speech about how Zoe is capable of detecting people's weaknesses, then they don't tell us what weakness she exploited.
And yeah, she got half of Dan's wealth but still decides to go along to Morocco?

And why did Dan say "we're here" when they were only at the dog hotel, when Zoe was expecting them to be at an airport to fly to Morocco? Sooo mysterious, and then it was only a dog hotel. Completely unnecessary. They could have had Dan hand the dogs off to someone at the airport.

On 7/12/2022 at 8:01 PM, aghst said:

I still think there's a chance Emily is really Hamzad's daughter, not Dan's..

That's been my theory all along. Wasn't there a baby in episode 1-2?

I too tired to all the metaphors and illusions in the dialogue in this episode. Some writers wanted to be fancy, but it was just too much.