Under The Banner Of Heaven - General Discussion

[Andyourlittledog2]

7 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I always say it's the human beings that ruin religion

That's true of everything. 🙂

I joined a cult when I was fifteen and was there for sixteen years. I really feel for the pain Jeb is going through as he struggles with what he sees as the religion he believes and loves and the reality of what he is now seeing around him. It's soul crushing, that conflict inside. Garfield is doing a fantastic job portraying this conflict.

[GloccaMorra]

This week's episode was great - this show just keeps getting better and better every week.  I would love to see the network spin Garfield off into his own series based on his character Jeb Pyre. 

[Pi237]

Definitely liking Andrew Garfield more than in the beginning.  And Sam Worthington does ‘stewing rage face’ really well.  

[SunnyBeBe]

It’s really quite heavy on the religious details that fueled the radicalism.  I suppose they felt that was important, but it bogs it down for me.  All the dialog, pontificating and tongue lashing is too much, imo.  It makes me fast forward at times. So, I’m not sure I’m getting it all.  What are they saying about any culpability, knowledge or acquiescence on the part of the victim’s husband?  Was he just incredibly naive and ignorant?

[kaygeeret]

I just finished Jon Krakauer's book 'Under the Banner of Heaven', from which this production is adapted.

The majority of the book is spent on Mormon history, the breach which lead to fundamental Mormon communities and a major teaching of the religion that God speaks individually to every believer.  Having known next to nothing about the Mormon religion I found it interesting and I learned a lot.

Eliminating polygamy led to most of the schisms.  Only the breakaway fundamentalist Mormon communities believe in polygamy.

 I realized that the belief that God speaks individually to you (and others of course) sets up the horror of what happened.  When you are depressed, angry, confused and all the horrid things Dan was going thru, it is very easy to believe that god will speak to you and endorse whatever you want to do in your anger and fear.  It didn't help that by all accounts, the Lafferty's were charming and charismatic.  The fact that they were all physically abused by their dad and most began abusing their wives is a pathology due to the man being the absolute ruler in the house and the decider of all things.  Once you believe you are 'supreme' you believe you can do anything you want.  Throw in the belief that god 'told you to' and the scene is set.

The Mormon religion is, of course, not the only religion to believe that god speaks to individuals.  Many other religions believe that god speaks directly to anointed leaders.  Just ask Catholics - (I am 'roman catholic retired').

The strong subtext in the book is the prevalence of rape and sexual abuse thru out the fundamentalist Mormon communities including within families.  It is horrific.

The movie is doing a decent job of trying to explain all of this, altho' the detective's (Andrew Garfield) apparent ignorance is a bit off putting.

Still, if you believe the leaders of your church are the arbiters and you believe in the church, I guess evil would be a revelation.

By all accounts, mainstream Mormon communities are remarkably hard working, successful communities filled with very decent people.

Most religions have unsavory events in their histories, so Mormons are not unique.

[Notabug]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:26 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

It’s really quite heavy on the religious details that fueled the radicalism.  I suppose they felt that was important, but it bogs it down for me.  All the dialog, pontificating and tongue lashing is too much, imo.  It makes me fast forward at times. So, I’m not sure I’m getting it all.  What are they saying about any culpability, knowledge or acquiescence on the part of the victim’s husband?  Was he just incredibly naive and ignorant?

As noted by others, the book on which the series is based covers the history of Mormonism and the evolution of the sorts of belief systems  that drove the Lafferty brothers to butcher an innocent woman and her baby.  By including the history and various events in the history of the church, it paints a direct line from Joseph Smith to the Laffertys and how it is possible for any faith the be subverted by zealots.  The book doesn't contain the Jeb Pyre character, let alone his family or the conflicts he feels about his faith due to the heinous crime committed by fundamentalist LDS members.

That being said, the addition of the Pyre character, to give us a mainstream Mormon perspective, was a brilliant move, IMO, and Andrew Garfield is knocking it out of the park.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Notabug

[Quickbeam]

I love Garfield’s face when he was repeatedly told to “put it on the shelf”. 
 

Re: direct contact with God, I was raised Quaker and there were no intermediaries in our faith practice. Of course Quakers created the modern penitentiary system, advocating “putting a man alone in a cell with a bible” so you know, there are dark corners everywhere. 

[marybennet]

1 hour ago, Quickbeam said:

I love Garfield’s face when he was repeatedly told to “put it on the shelf”. 
 

It made me think of “Turn it Off,” the song about repression in The Book of Mormon, the musical—a very different mood but a comment on the same thing. 

[Haleth]

I'm enjoying this, especially Garfield's wonderful performance of a man who is increasingly conflicted.  I was surprised to see above that Pyre isn't in the book?  How does Krakauer follow the investigation?  Does he do all the interviews with the brothers in the book (with Pyre being his stand in in the show)?  

I really like Brenda.  It's appalling that she and her baby were murdered by insane zealots.

[Enigma X]

I also did not realize that Pyre was not a real person. Is Taba? I have been telling people about this show, and many have said they've read the book. I am going to go back and suggest they watch the show because of the Pyre and Taba characters. 

[izabella]

16 hours ago, Notabug said:

As noted by others, the book on which the series is based covers the history of Mormonism and the evolution of the sorts of belief systems  that drove the Lafferty brothers to butcher an innocent woman and her baby.  By including the history and various events in the history of the church, it paints a direct line from Joseph Smith to the Laffertys and how it is possible for any faith the be subverted by zealots.  The book doesn't contain the Jeb Pyre character, let alone his family or the conflicts he feels about his faith due to the heinous crime committed by fundamentalist LDS members.

That being said, the addition of the Pyre character, to give us a mainstream Mormon perspective, was a brilliant move, IMO, and Andrew Garfield is knocking it out of the park.

My takeaway from the book wasn't that any faith can be subverted by zealots (though I believe that to be true).  I got the impression the LDS religion was started by a charlatan Joseph Smith who recruited zealots from the start (for his own gain), and they were run out of town repeatedly for their zealotry and polygamy until they found a home in the wilds of Utah.  It wasn't until Congress, in an effort to stamp out polygamy, disincorporated the Church and seized assets, did the LDS leadership renounce polygamy and begin the transformation into the mainstream Mormon Church it is today.  The polygamy, the misogyny, and the racism were baked into LDS from the start by a zealot followed by other zealots, some of whom extended the FLDS beliefs into murder (not the first to do so based on religious beliefs, and not the last).

I agree, having the mainstream Mormon perspective is beneficial, since I just couldn't understand how FLDS is tolerated by the Mormon Church while reading the book.

 

[Andyourlittledog2]

The FLDS is a specific fundamentalist group of polygamists (Warren Jeffs' group). There are others, like the AUB, the Kingstons, the LeBarons (you want crazy murderers, read about the LeBarons).

I think the thing that makes this particular religion so susceptible to this kind of thing is that it teaches that it's men are all in a priesthood and that they should be seeking revelations and 'testimonies' as they call it from God and it also makes it easy for people in the religion to believe it when a man says they have such a revelation and to follow them. All religions are subject to this kind of thing but Mormonism just has this super baked in. Also it's quite new and it's beliefs are already so different from anything mainstream. That's what I've come to believe is the problem.

As someone whose ancestor was killed as a witch in the Salem witch trials in 1692 I concede that all religions can produce zealots that are wonky and dangerous to the people around them.  Zealots have always been a problem in religion. There seem to be more bad ones than the good kind. Or at least we tend to find the bad ones the most interesting.

[Notabug]

9 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I also did not realize that Pyre was not a real person. Is Taba? I have been telling people about this show, and many have said they've read the book. I am going to go back and suggest they watch the show because of the Pyre and Taba characters. 

Neither are part of the book, I don't know if they are based on real detectives.  As far as the investigation, it was more straightforward than we're seeing on the show.  Ron was pretty vocal about his desire for 'blood atonement' on 4 people who he felt were responsible for his wife leaving him and taking their kids (she really left because he was becoming fanatical and wanted to take more wives, including her 14 year old daughter from a previous marriage).  There were 2 others on their hit list but 1 wasn't home and they got lost and couldn't find the other's home that day. The other two were  friends of Brenda's who had also helped Ron's ex-wife when she decided to leave him.  One was also the LDS official who spearheaded Ron's excommunication when he started preaching polygamy.  Ron and Dan were also pissed because they had started their own fundy LDS sect which included polygamy and Brenda convinced her husband not to join them, the rest of the family was pretty much on board and the brothers told them all about the 'revelation' that God told them to kill Brenda, Erica and the others several months before it happened.

Anyway, from the start, there was a good bit of evidence that it was Ron and Dan and a couple of accomplices (the part where neighbors saw the car and the 4 men in it is true) who did the killing and they were then on the lam for a few weeks before the police caught up with them.  The two other guys were vagrants who the brothers had met up with during the weeks preceding the murders and they told the police a lot of details although neither one went into the house that day.  One of them convinced the brothers to give up when they couldn't find the house that day, so he kinda saved a life there.  Once they were captured, the brothers were pretty chatty with the cops; they felt completely justified in what they had done; God told them to do it.  

Jon Krakauer spent a great deal of time interviewing Dan Lafferty who is still in prison and a lot of the stuff is from those interviews is in the series.

I enjoyed the book and think it makes a great companion to the series; but the addition of the detectives makes the series more compelling, IMO.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Notabug

[Avaleigh]

On 5/17/2022 at 8:42 AM, izabella said:

I agree, having the mainstream Mormon perspective is beneficial, since I just couldn't understand how FLDS is tolerated by the Mormon Church while reading the book.

I agree with everything in your post.

To be fair to the LDS church I will say that I think, if it were up to them and in their power, these splinter groups would never have existed. They want to distance themselves from these fundamentalists as much as they can and cringe every time some horror story from one of these groups makes the news. I think the show has touched on this in terms of how the church leaders are reacting to the Lafferty case. They just want it hushed up and forgotten about and don't want Pyre to dig any deeper into the why and how this crime could have happened. 

That being said, it's kind of odd for the main LDS church to continue to venerate guys like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young when the history makes it clear what these men were into at the end of the day. What all of the groups have in common is the belief that these men were prophets who had revelations directly from god. The amount of wives both of these guys (and other church leaders) had including young teen girls is justified with a "those were the times" argument instead of calling it out for what it really is. 

The biggest difference between the LDS church and the breakway groups is that the breakaway groups believe that it was a mistake to not continue the faith the way that leaders Smith and Young said it should be. They felt the church was bowing to the outside pressure of a "Gentile" government and didn't believe the convenient timing of the revelation that LDS president Woodruff supposedly had when the church decided to formally end polygamy. 

What I find interesting is how banning polygamy was such a deal breaker for so many people. The idea that the church would take away the right for these guys to abuse multiple women in the name of religion was beyond the pale for the men who spearheaded these breakaway sects. To them it was like 'Hey, you're taking away the best part of our thing!' I get the impression that if the LDS church had just put an end to, say, blood atonement in 1890 there wouldn't have been as much of a schism.

[gesundheit]

Okay, the ending of this newest episode was way too confusing with all the interspersing of timelines. I guess they were saying Ron killed his dad? I got lost.

[Notabug]

Quote

 I agree, having the mainstream Mormon perspective is beneficial, since I just couldn't understand how FLDS is tolerated by the Mormon Church while reading the book.

But what can they really do about them?  Many religions have groups with extreme views that have splintered off from the traditional church.  The Mormon church has often denounced the FLDS outliers and publicly excommunicated the leaders of those groups.  I don't know what else they can do about them other than spread the word that these are not members of the mainstream denomination but people who have started their own religions essentially.  And, of course, with the history of the Mormon church itself, that is how it came into existence itself.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Notabug

[Andyourlittledog2]

4 hours ago, Notabug said:

But what can they really do about them?  Many religions have groups with extreme views that have splintered off from the traditional church.  The Mormon church has often denounced the FLDS outliers and publicly excommunicated the leaders of those groups.  I don't know what else they can do about them other than spread the word that these are not members of the mainstream denomination but people who have started their own religions essentially.  And, of course, with the history of the Mormon church itself, that is how it came into existence itself.

But that to me is the problem. The older more established religions have all kinds of detours and strangeness and downright bad decisions in their pasts but they pretty much take it as 'well, that happened'.  LDS church just seems determined to hide their stuff and insist it never happened, you are mistaken, 'don't look that way, look this way, over here' about it all. It creates a situation of 'what are you hiding?' about things.

IMO Pyre should be familiar with his church's history and not flummoxed by learning some hard truths. But he's been protected all his life from learning about it. 

Secrets are seldom worth the effort in keeping them from people.  Especially in religion, where their sudden appearance has the capacity to shake a person's foundations of faith.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Andyourlittledog2

[Andyourlittledog2]

When I was at university I was in a cult and other people's religions fascinated me. I spent some time in the university library looking at very old 19th century monographs and such, most of which was published as propaganda from one religion against another so you have to consider the sources and why the writings were found worthy of being published in the first place. But it was very interesting.

And that is where I found a copy of Emma Smith's writings on the Mormon church and the state of polygamy, etc. mid-19th century.  It was fascinating, coming from her. I can see why they wanted to shut her up with a quickness. 

[pasdetrois]

I was lost during most of this episode. Too much switching between historical and contemporary timelines. The writers are trying to belabor the connection between the Laffertys' zealotry and historical doctrine. We get it already.

I will never, ever be convinced that any man believes that polygamy is holy. I believe it's simply a matter of 1) wanting many children (to build a fiefdom) and 2) being a creep, often a pedophile.

I wonder if Gil Birmingham is OK. Maybe it's just weight loss, but he looks kind of enervated.

Hoping the next episode calms down a bit and focuses on getting the bad guys.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Notabug]

14 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

 

IMO Pyre should be familiar with his church's history and not flummoxed by learning some hard truths. But he's been protected all his life from learning about it. 

Secrets are seldom worth the effort in keeping them from people.  Especially in religion, where their sudden appearance has the capacity to shake a person's foundations of faith.

The thing is, Pyre is a fictional character.  I don't think real-life Mormons, especially those that live in Utah and areas where the FLDS and other breakaway sects are fairly common are really that innocent about it.  I think they are well aware of the history of plural marriage in the early days of the church and even the reason that it was eventually outlawed.   Even the concept of blood atonement, no longer practiced by the mainstream, but part of the church' early history is not that obscure and I think most LDS members, particularly those living in that area and deeply involved in the church would be well aware of the history.  I think the portrayal of Jeb as being naive and nearly completely unaware of the history of his faith, including some of the less savory bits, is more of a plot device than an actual portrayal of the typical LDS member.  I am still very much appreciating Garfield's work and I think Jeb being so completely out of the loop on this stuff really works for the story they are trying to tell; but it doesn't ring true to me as an honest portrayal of a real Mormon in that situation.

I think the scary Mormon officials running around intimidating their 'brothers' in law enforcement is also mainly for shock value for the story.  In real life, and on the show, both brothers were excommunicated well before the murders and the church was very outspoken that these guys were NOT LDS members in good standing and that the church in no way condoned their behavior.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Notabug

[Andyourlittledog2]

I realize Pyre is a fictional character. He is a representation of the good church member as opposed to the outlaw zealots. Such characters are common in stories about true events and don't bother me a bit.  But my point still stands:  the LDS church works hard to re-tell its history in a more favorable light and tries to hide anything that contradicts their version of its history.  What works against it is its newness. There is documentation, letters, that are contemporaneous to the facts and events in question.  They have historically hidden things and change the subject and when all else fails redefine what clearly happened to make it more palatable.  This is in regard to polygamy, which is a sore subject there. They rang a bell and now work hard to unring it. It just never works.

ETA:  Because of the time period in question for the crime, there wasn't any google or online way of discovering this stuff. You had the history you had access to.  I was in my teens at a university library in California in the seventies when I found Emma Smith's letter (copy) in the religious history section of the university library otherwise I would not have known it existed or been able to read it. It was a pure fluke. Jeb's character likewise knew what he was taught and didn't have any reason to search for other versions of that teaching and had no internet to make it easy to do so if he did. The internet changes everything and we cannot judge what people should have known by what we have access to today.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Andyourlittledog2

[scarynikki12]

Hey everyone please remember to add spoiler tags to real life details about the murders that may still make it on to the show. 

[twoods]

This last episode was bonkers. Dan wanting to marry his stepdaughters, Ron beating his wife and then killing his father with his mom’s urging. There is a lot to process.

[Quickbeam]

Oooh, episode 6 is intense. Brenda gets basically commissioned to bring the Laffertys back to the church. Great acting all around, Andrew Garfield continues to impress. 

[pasdetrois]

I'm sick of all of the lengthy religious discussions.

Can someone explain what is the "red book" that "tells the true story of Mormon history?" The Lafferty languishing in jail said he had it hidden in a paper book jacket. Why would the book make Pyre nearly lose his mind?

I know there is a Red Book on Mormonism, but was the hidden book something different?

Edited May 27, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Notabug]

4 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I'm sick of all of the lengthy religious discussions.

Can someone explain what is the "red book" that "tells the true story of Mormon history?" The Lafferty languishing in jail said he had it hidden in a paper book jacket. Why would the book make Pyre nearly lose his mind?

I know there is a Red Book on Mormonism, but was the hidden book something different?

The book in question is Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? which is an in-depth examination of the history of Mormonism, warts and all.  It covers a lot of the major Mormon documents and history and provides commentary.  For example, it delves into Joseph Smith and his background as a con artist, all of the 'prophesies' made by church leaders that didn't come to pass and the many crimes including acts of violence that were sanctioned by the early church leaders.  

It is rather critical of Mormonism but has a pretty comprehensive and detailed look at the documented history of the church.  For a Mormon like Pyre, raised to never question the church and its stances; having been told that it is the one true faith all of his life; it could be pretty shattering to realize all the parts of the church' history that have been sanitized and hidden. 

The authors, husband and wife who both were from families who belonged to the church for generations, did extensive research using actual documents from the early days, some of which were unknown to most present-day Mormons.  The both left the faith, BTW, but were still considered experts on church history, even by devout Mormons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism:_Shadow_or_Reality%3F

Edited May 27, 2022 by Notabug

[gesundheit]

22 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Oooh, episode 6 is intense. Brenda gets basically commissioned to bring the Laffertys back to the church. Great acting all around, Andrew Garfield continues to impress. 

He's tremendous, and I quite legitimately have tried very hard to see the appeal before and been unable to, so I'm relieved to finally see what everyone else has been seeing!

This newest episode was one that I watched on three different devices across three states at three wildly different times of night/day, so I definitely could have missed plenty. But I was confused about whether we missed something about the scales falling from Allen's eyes. In the flashbacks, as I recall, he became as unhinged and swept up in it as his brothers did. Was there a flashback scene where that changed for him? Because in the present day scenes he was speaking as if he'd been disillusioned for a while, pre-murders.

[Haleth]

I think we've yet to see why Allen lost his faith and how he acquired the book.  I'm guessing it's when his brothers begin to threaten Brenda?

How many episodes are there?  I'm fascinated by the show but I'm sort of hoping it wraps up soon.  It seems to be repeating the same plot points without moving much in the past couple episodes.

Garfield is superb.  His scene in the garage of being so conflicted was well acted.  I know a family that went through a similar situation where the husband had a crisis of faith and it messed everyone up, including the two young daughters who ended up torn between two worlds.  It's heartbreaking.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Haleth

[gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I think we've yet to see why Allen lost his faith and how he acquired the book.  I'm guessing it's when his brothers begin to threaten Brenda?

How many episodes are there?  I'm fascinated by the show but I'm sort of hoping it wraps up soon.  It seems to be repeating the same plot points without moving much in the past couple episodes.

The next episode is the finale

[Razzberry]

As a non-Mormon it's a little hard to follow at times, even though I've read some history and have known several Mormons who are fine people and not so different.  I was confused in the first episode by Pyre's daughters dressed in pioneer-type dresses which I thought were worn only by fundamentalist Mormons, but I could be wrong.  Even Pyre seems a bit too backward for being a cop.

I feel Detective Taba as an outsider could have been used better to help the viewers understand what's going on, but it's like he's only on board to satisfy some diversity policy of Hulu's rather than to lend clarity. 

Nice seeing Adelaide Clemens (Rectify) and Seth Numrich (Ben from TURN: Washington's Spies) again.  The acting is good but the writing is kind of a mess, IMO.

More messy confusion:   THREE recent docudramas about Mormons and true crime in 3 different forums. It's no wonder even the search engine can't find shows.

1. Home > TV Shows > Drama > Other Dramas > Under The Banner Of Heaven 

2. Home > Beyond TV Shows > Other TV Talk > Specials, TV Movies & Other One-Offs > Murder Among the Mormons 

3.  Home > TV Shows > Talk, News & Non-Fiction > Other Non-Fiction Shows > Preaching Evil: A Wife On The Run With Warren Jeffs

Edited May 28, 2022 by Razzberry

[Andyourlittledog2]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I was confused in the first episode by Pyre's daughters dressed in pioneer-type dresses which I thought were worn only by fundamentalist Mormons, but I could be wrong. 

It threw me initially but then it was said that they were celebrating Pioneer Days which is a big deal in Utah. The girls were dressed as pioneers and they were going to Pioneer Days events.

[Razzberry]

Episode 6, in the car with Taba and Pyre 

In a show without much humor it just struck me as funny.  

Edited May 28, 2022 by Razzberry

[chediavolo]

I hate when s shows thread is not separated into episodes because you never know when you’re going to get spoiled. So I won’t be following this.
 But I will say that Andrew Garfield can’t act his way out of a paper bag. And that second episode with the animal abuse was beyond sickening and I hope that father gets what’s coming to him just for that. I hope he dies in absolute pain, the prick.  the other guy in the old time flash back is already dead if that even happened. 

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, chediavolo said:

I hate when s shows thread is not separated into episodes because you never know when you’re going to get spoiled. So I won’t be following this.
 But I will say that Andrew Garfield can’t act his way out of a paper bag. And that second episode with the animal abuse was beyond sickening and I hope that father gets what’s coming to him just for that. I hope he dies in absolute pain, the prick.  the other guy in the old time flash back is already dead if that even happened. 

At least this show is released weekly, so if you check the post dates, you can "safely" read up to the day before any episodes you haven't seen yet.  (IMDB has the release dates.)

[Quickbeam]

I really love that Taba’s character is a Paiute. It brings out a lot of the racial weirdness that  is embedded in old Mormon thinking.

That Pyre’s daughters make drawings for Taba=so cute. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Who was the guy Ron was in the hot tub with and who baptized him? Their kiss didn’t seem to surprise anyone other than Ron. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Who was the guy Ron was in the hot tub with and who baptized him? Their kiss didn’t seem to surprise anyone other than Ron. 

John Bryant, a Mormon polygamist who took things in a whole 'nother direction in Oregon. He was more of a free love kinda guy than a conservative fundamentalist like the other polygamist sects are. Ron looked him up and lived in his commune for a little while.  It was pretty strange. We tend to think of fundamentalist polygamist Mormons as being really consevative and strict but John Bryant was a whole different ballgame.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’ve seen a few polygamists on realty tv who drank wine and that shocked me.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I recall years ago when there was a Donny & Marie show, when they had a western saloon scene, they would insert milk in the place of whisky on the bar.  And when they sang, Joy To The World by 3 Dog Night, they said “milk” instead of wine. Lol. As regular LDS, they seemed very wholesome, except they were allowed to sing and dance to rock and pop music, but no cursing, drinking, or sexy stuff. Lol 

Edited May 31, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[peeayebee]

I binged this show yesterday and today. I had no idea it wasn't over yet, so when ep 6 ended, I was all, WHA!?!?!? 

Very interesting, informative, and helpful reading the posts here.

[dbklmt]

Nothing to see here.  Sorry!

Edited May 31, 2022 by dbklmt

[Lassus]

I'm legitimately astounded this has no forum on the main page.

[twoods]

This show is losing steam. The brothers are so freaking nuts and annoying, and now looney mom is thrown in the mix. I feel as if there has been little about the murder investigation and more into this family. I also wish we got some scenes of Brenda’s parents mourning her death earlier on in the show, but at least we are finally seeing her family.

[gesundheit]

Decent ending but I definitely feel like there were missing pieces. Why were those two other guys with Ron and Dan? How do you go from "we hung out with Ron because he was a fun dude, but then we hated it when he talked about the religious stuff" to "but also we joined him on his blood atonement killing spree?" 

Also, we still really didn't see when Allen lost faith. 

Thank goodness the killing of the baby wasn't even a sound effect. 

I loved that Taba stopped trying to be polite about his feelings on Mormonism. He was so done. I know the detectives were total fiction, but it was a good final framing to have Taba representing another version of a religious history everyone was so attached to.

Why was Pyre's wife so welcoming when he came home, when in her previous scene she'd basically told him she was probably leaving him?

Given that this was based on a true story, I was disappointed that there were no follow-up details provided at the end on how things turned out, but I guess too much of it was fictionalized for updates to even make sense.

[Straycat80]

Agree this was a decent ending. But I wished they would have said what happened to everyone afterwards. I had to look up what happened to Ron and Dan. 
I didn’t mind the history lesson about the Mormons, I thought it was interesting and a lot more sinister than I thought. 

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Decent ending but I definitely feel like there were missing pieces. Why were those two other guys with Ron and Dan? How do you go from "we hung out with Ron because he was a fun dude, but then we hated it when he talked about the religious stuff" to "but also we joined him on his blood atonement killing spree?" 

Also, we still really didn't see when Allen lost faith. 

Thank goodness the killing of the baby wasn't even a sound effect. 

I loved that Taba stopped trying to be polite about his feelings on Mormonism. He was so done. I know the detectives were total fiction, but it was a good final framing to have Taba representing another version of a religious history everyone was so attached to.

Why was Pyre's wife so welcoming when he came home, when in her previous scene she'd basically told him she was probably leaving him?

Given that this was based on a true story, I was disappointed that there were no follow-up details provided at the end on how things turned out, but I guess too much of it was fictionalized for updates to even make sense.

Spoiler

That's kinda what happened in real life, though.  The two guys were essentially homeless/vagrants that the brothers picked up while driving around the prior to the killing spree.  I think they perhaps have intellectual or emotional issues, which is why they were riding along with the brothers on their mission.  One of them did convince the brothers to move on rather than wait around when one of the victims wasn't home.  The two of them also got sufficiently creeped out after the murders that they abandoned the brothers while they were asleep, stealing their car.  They later lead the police to the places along the road where the brothers abandoned the murder weapon and their bloody clothes.

Ron was convicted and sentenced to death.  He got a retrial on appeal and got the same verdict, same outcome. He died in prison before his sentence could be carried out. Dan was also found guilty but the jury couldn't agree on the death sentence for him so, he is still alive, serving life without parole.  As of the writing of the book, he was still convinced that he and Ron had every right to kill for blood atonement and that he still gets revelations from God.

The brother, Robin, that the cops arrested and questioned first, is not a real person; he was mainly there for expository purposes.

The book wasn't really specific as to when Allen lost faith in his brothers' warped vision, but made it clear that it was Brenda who insisted that they remain mainstream Mormons.

[gesundheit]

7 minutes ago, Notabug said:

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That's kinda what happened in real life, though.  The two guys were essentially homeless/vagrants that the brothers picked up while driving around the prior to the killing spree.  I think they perhaps have intellectual or emotional issues, which is why they were riding along with the brothers on their mission.  One of them did convince the brothers to move on rather than wait around when one of the victims wasn't home.  The two of them also got sufficiently creeped out after the murders that they abandoned the brothers while they were asleep, stealing their car.  They later lead the police to the places along the road where the brothers abandoned the murder weapon and their bloody clothes.

Ron was convicted and sentenced to death.  He got a retrial on appeal and got the same verdict, same outcome. He died in prison before his sentence could be carried out. Dan was also found guilty but the jury couldn't agree on the death sentence for him so, he is still alive, serving life without parole.  As of the writing of the book, he was still convinced that he and Ron had every right to kill for blood atonement and that he still gets revelations from God.

The brother, Robin, that the cops arrested and questioned first, is not a real person; he was mainly there for expository purposes.

The book wasn't really specific as to when Allen lost faith in his brothers' warped vision, but made it clear that it was Brenda who insisted that they remain mainstream Mormons.

Ohh, thank you for the info! Any news on how the other wives and kids and brothers are doing now?

[Notabug]

18 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Ohh, thank you for the info! Any news on how the other wives and kids and brothers are doing now?

This article has some information about the rest of the family.  Spoiler alert, though, the article recaps a lot of events seen in the show.

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/lafferty-family-siblings-parents

[gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Notabug said:

This article has some information about the rest of the family.  Spoiler alert, though, the article recaps a lot of events seen in the show.

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/lafferty-family-siblings-parents

The show's over, though! I don't think we need to spoiler-warn anything about it anymore, right? Maybe I'm mistaken.

Anyway, thank you, I will check it out!

[SoMuchTV]

Oh my goodness. “Angel of god my guardian dear”. I did not realize that was buried somewhere in my brain.