S06.E07: Sticks and Stones

[Athena]

Quote

Claire struggles with her demons as a nefarious rumor begins to spread on the Ridge. Tensions rise as the residents fear there is a dangerous person in their midst.

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[NeenerNeener]

The things I learn from this show. I was wondering if the show screwed up by putting Bri in a denim jacket, but according to Mr Google indigo dye and cotton cloth were around in the 1700s, so if she wanted to make denim she could.

[Haleth]

36 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

if she wanted to make denim she could.

Of course she could. 

[NeenerNeener]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Of course she could. 

I forgot that she's the equivalent of Ayla from "Clan of the Cave Bear", who invented everything.

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, I guess Malva getting up in church is one way to get everyone to freeze out Claire and Jamie. 

I was figuring Mr. Christie would push more about Claire maybe killing Malva, but he was more ripped about her having a proper burial. Allan is still a little bitch, but it was fair to ask why Claire wouldn't have heard anything or known if she knocked. It's important that Claire copped to the ether to Jamie. I certainly don't begrudge Claire being distraught. Maybe she needs a vacation in the 1970s. Saturday Night Live already debuted. She could use a good Ford joke. And maybe a therapist. Just because there wasn't a word for it then doesn't mean she's not suffering from post-traumatic stress. 

I was laughing at the dinner table being all Law and Order - then Bree made a crack about Perry Mason, and Roger just jumps right into it. Tonight on Outlander, we learn the importance of an independent judiciary. 

I kind of feel bad for Young Ian. He's had a lot heaped on him. 'Both the Beardsleys'. I mean, that's got to be made a meme or something. Too bad Lizzie can't go to the 70s. She'd be a hit at the key parties. 

I'd much rather Roger be the school master than a minister. I just don't see that as his calling. I'm a little concerned that they're going to leave without taking care of uncovering the fire. That's the whole reason they went back. 

Jamie just being so OVER everything was actually inadvertently funny. 

 

[nara]

I do think that 2 young women of the Fraser household getting pregnant outside of wedlock reflects a little badly on Claire and Jamie and their moral leadership (for the period). They really have to pay more attention to the norms of society if they want a peaceful life. It’s irritating how little they learn from their experiences. Jamie threatened someone when he should have been showing himself to be wise and nonviolent and Claire tried to carry the little coffin. She could have easily asked Bree to take it. 

On the other hand, Go Lizzie! Very sexually liberated of her. I was not really expecting that. I thought the brothers would fight over her. Handfasted to both brothers. Very clever of her! However, if they play it cool the brother can live with her and her husband and no one would be wiser.

So they have successfully gotten Fergus, Marsali, Bree, and Roger off the Ridge. I guess we’re heading towards the fire about which Bree read (season 4?) that led to her coming back into the past. Glad that many of our faves are out of the way.

[Glade]

Roger came pretty close to singing the Backstreet Boys 'As long as You Love Me' at Mulva's funeral.  It's interesting to hear Lizzie confirm that she was the one Claire saw approaching the house, so Mulva showed up or was dumped after the ether. 

Lizzie absolutely can marry one of them and still have his brother live in the same house and continue their throuple in private.  It's really too bad so sad that colonizing native land inevitably wound up with hateful little puritanical fundamentalist communities, but... It looks like it's time to burn the house down and fake their deaths to go live near Fergus and Marsali. 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, nara said:

However, if they play it cool the brother can live with her and her husband and no one would be wiser.

I don't get why Jamie told the other one to go away until the baby is born. I get that Jamie insists she should married, but I highly doubt the stout Ridge folk are going to jump to the twin threesome conclusion. That seemed to be the source of the problem. 

22 minutes ago, Glade said:

It looks like it's time to burn the house down and fake their deaths to go live near Fergus and Marsali. 

It still bothers me that Bree and Roger just let out with the fire still coming up. iirc they don't know the date of the fire. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, nara said:

On the other hand, Go Lizzie! Very sexually liberated of her. I was not really expecting that. I thought the brothers would fight over her. Handfasted to both brothers. Very clever of her! However, if they play it cool the brother can live with her and her husband and no one would be wiser.

I know that’s what I was thinking the entire episode. It would be more socially expected for her to marry the hearing brother Josiah, and no one would bat an eyelash if Kenzie lived with them his entire life because he was deaf, they would say “how sweet Josiah looks after his brother in this way”. I said “Lizzie, it’s called polyamory.”

 

I did like how Lizzie was very upfront that she wanted both brothers and no they didn’t do any twin switcheroo on her (not that I thought they would but Claire had to ask). 
 

I still want to know WHO killed Malva?? Who had motive to want her dead? The baby’s actual father?

45 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't get why Jamie told the other one to go away until the baby is born. I get that Jamie insists she should married, but I highly doubt the stout Ridge folk are going to jump to the twin threesome conclusion. That seemed to be the source of the problem. 

I think Jamie was just pissed, and ASSUMED there would be talk.
 

But given how much ableism there is in this period, and how deaf people are treated, I don’t think anyone would assume Lizzie would want to be with Kenzie (when she had Josiah as an option). I think Jamie was over reacting but he didn’t want any gossip because it was known both twins had crushes on Lizzie.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I still want to know WHO killed Malva?? Who had motive to want her dead? The baby’s actual father?

I don't know why they haven't realized how likely that is, or speculated that Malva was killed to keep her quiet. Instead they think someone just didn't like her walking around unwed and pregnant.

I was glad that Jamie pointed out the actual line is "Thou shalt not murder" and the English version is a mistranslation.

I must confess: I've been waiting for someone to say it's too bad blood tests haven't been invented yet so I can point out that a blood test wouldn't be able to distinguish paternity between identical twins.

[Lily H]

I am so over Claire. Why does she have to be so weak all the time? The constant self-flagellation over Malva's death, and the hallucinations, and repeatedly dosing herself with the ether. She was in no way responsible for Malva's death, so why all the guilt? That whole last scene was a boring waste of time, with all the crying and whining. 

Where are Bree and Roger going? I must have zoned out during all the religion talk and missed the explanation.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

56 minutes ago, Lily H said:

Where are Bree and Roger going? I must have zoned out during all the religion talk and missed the explanation.

To Edenton, so Roger can get ordained.

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, Lily H said:

I am so over Claire. Why does she have to be so weak all the time? The constant self-flagellation over Malva's death, and the hallucinations, and repeatedly dosing herself with the ether. She was in no way responsible for Malva's death, so why all the guilt? That whole last scene was a boring waste of time, with all the crying and whining. 

Where are Bree and Roger going? I must have zoned out during all the religion talk and missed the explanation.

I don’t see Claire as weak. I think that she’s suffering from PTSD from her kidnapping and gang rape , and has been self medicating/in denial/compartmentalizing everything like she admitted to Jamie. The physical scars have healed but it wasn’t that long ago show time- at this point a year maybe?(slightly less)
 

She also has a lot of guilt about returning to the past, and Bree following her because she intellectually knows that life in the 20th century would be easier for Bree & Roger- of course she wants them there because she loves them, and although yes it was their choice “mother’s guilt”. Claire also knows the 20th century was safer for her! She wants to be with Jamie, but no one wants to be called a witch, kidnapped and raped because they gave women information to prevent conception.

Malva’s accusations and death on her doorstep is just one more thing that’s pushing her over the edge. She’s also pissed as hell that this girl she trusted and took in would lie in that way, but I’d horrified that she was murdered, because Claire is a decent person. 
 

Roger is going to be officially ordained as a minister. 

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It still bothers me that Bree and Roger just let out with the fire still coming up. iirc they don't know the date of the fire.

They know the date but not the year.  

[Pallas]

Quote

She was in no way responsible for Malva's death, so why all the guilt? 

Because being violated hollows you out, and self-hatred rushes in. To herself, despite herself, Claire is damaged goods. And she also feels that way because of who she is. Achievers like Claire, especially, tend to believe that they "deserve" what their hard work and accomplishments have brought them, and apply that sense of deserved outcomes to other aspects of their lives. We prefer to live in a world where calamities happen to us for a reason, not because we all live and die contingently. Claire is first of all a doer and a doctor, and she's been turned inside out. It's her world that's been turned upside down. 

[jacourt]

I was surprised that Roger and Bree have a conversation about his being ordained.  He decide to do it.  Then they say ok lets leave tomorrow.

It was so strange.. Did they think that there would be no consequences for Malvas death?

[Scarlett45]

17 minutes ago, jacourt said:

I was surprised that Roger and Bree have a conversation about his being ordained.  He decide to do it.  Then they say ok lets leave tomorrow.

It was so strange.. Did they think that there would be no consequences for Malvas death?

I think this is a way to get them "off property" so that Jamie and Claire have less backup. I mean Fergus and Marsali are gone to New Burn, Mrs Bug and Mr Bug went to deliver the whiskey to River Run yes? So if Claire and Jamie are assumed to perish in the fire as found in the newspaper clipping Frank found in Season 3, that assumption makes more sense with the other household members gone. Only Lizzie, the Beardsley twins and Ian are left.

[SassAndSnacks]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Because being violated hollows you out, and self-hatred rushes in. To herself, despite herself, Claire is damaged goods. And she also feels that way because of who she is. Achievers like Claire, especially, tend to believe that they "deserve" what their hard work and accomplishments have brought them, and apply that sense of deserved outcomes to other aspects of their lives. We prefer to live in a world where calamities happen to us for a reason, not because we all live and die contingently. Claire is first of all a doer and a doctor, and she's been turned inside out. It's her world that's been turned upside down. 

This is beautifully stated.  Thank you.

[Lola82]

I just realized I’m most worried about losing that beautiful house in the fire. 
 

I can’t believe Bree and Roger would leave Claire when it’s clear she needs more support at this time. Everyone is speculating that she’s a murderer/witch so sure let’s just leave her alone.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Lola82 said:

I just realized I’m most worried about losing that beautiful house in the fire. 
 

I can’t believe Bree and Roger would leave Claire when it’s clear she needs more support at this time. Everyone is speculating that she’s a murderer/witch so sure let’s just leave her alone.

Yeah- it seems that the thumb is on the plot scale with this one.

[FnkyChkn34]

It's unfortunate, but I'm really not enjoying this show anymore.  I watch it every week hoping that it will get better, and it doesn't.  It's sad, because it has potential, but it's really missing the mark in my opinion.

Why are we re-hashing the "she's a witch!" crap from the first season?  And the second season too, for that matter.  This story has been done - let's put it to bed and not revisit it again.  We get it, she's weird and the people are simple-minded so that they don't understand.  But can't there be more stories to tell that aren't just a retelling of the same, tired plot?  Plus, isn't this about the same time that Benjamin Franklin is experimenting with electricity, and there are other doctors who are advocating for the smallpox inoculation?  Everything that Claire was doing was not so unheard of, just that she was a woman.  I'd prefer to see Jamie stand up for her and make the people understand that women can be equal to men, but I guess that's not a story that Diana Gabaldon would tell...

[ddawn23]

9 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Why are we re-hashing the "she's a witch!" crap from the first season?  And the second season too, for that matter.

Good lord it’s tiring to have to wade through this again. Not to mention how laughably anachronistic the season one witch trial was. And that was a quarter century ago at this point!

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

They know the date but not the year.  

That's much better, but it could warrant a line with 'let's pack tomorrow and get moving. The fire doesn't happen until September.' It hasn't been generally acknowledged much and that's the reason they came back. Especially with everything going on, I'd be side eying everyone. That's fine if they know the date. 

Still, as it's been said, it's not the best time for them to be leaving.

I'm not hate watching, there's still enough to keep my interest in the show, but they do shove the characters into plot at times, and the criticisms here seem fair to me. This was a B level show for me from the start. It's within expectations to me.

I would like to know who did in Malva, and I'm going with the prevailing opinion that it's bitch Alan. I suppose that revealing only one episode later is too pat, but we have a witness and an alibi in Lizzie. Though I doubt the 'committee' is particularly interested in due process. Had Claire and Jamie more allies in this issue, I could see maybe the committee pushes them to the rebel side. I still can't really buy the entire place is against them. Not one person is like, 'Jamie gave me my life back and a place to start a family so I'm standing by him?' 

At this point, I would just flat out say that Malva's had sex with half the town. Young Ian would step up, and I think they'd believe Roger about seeing them getting busy in the church. 

I didn't think Claire would cop to the ether so soon, and just letting everything out was a good scene. I'm actually glad that's out of the way so we can focus hopefully on solving the murder. And we have another time traveler that I want to see! Clearly (ha), Claire isn't going to be burned as a witch or hanged, and I am quite over assault. I still say they start the fire and break north. I mean, we have the matches right there. 

 

[iMonrey]

Hopefully this means we're done with Claire's hallucinations and ether addiction.

Quote

It would be more socially expected for her to marry the hearing brother Josiah, and no one would bat an eyelash if Kenzie lived with them his entire life because he was deaf, they would say “how sweet Josiah looks after his brother in this way”. 

Is Keziah deaf? He seemed to understand everything Jamie was saying. BTW - I only just now realized it's one actor playing both twins.

This is the most dialogue Lizzie has ever had.

[Scarlett45]

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Hopefully this means we're done with Claire's hallucinations and ether addiction.

Is Keziah deaf? He seemed to understand everything Jamie was saying. BTW - I only just now realized it's one actor playing both twins.

This is the most dialogue Lizzie has ever had.

Yes Keziah is deaf. He wasn't born deaf, the man they were indentured to hit him in the head when they were kids and deafened him. (which explains why he has solid verbal language) He has some hearing left, but not enough to function well. That's one of the reasons they stick to each other like glue (as well as being identical twins). Josiah explains this in the beginning of season 5 when we meet them and Claire examines Keziah.

(bolding mine) "tv lip reading skills"

[ddawn23]

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Is Keziah deaf?

He was indentured to a guy who liked to punish him by boxing his ears, which severely damaged his hearing and rendered him functionally deaf. Having his tonsils out improved his hearing, although it’s not clear how much.

[FnkyChkn34]

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Hopefully this means we're done with Claire's hallucinations and ether addiction.

Is Keziah deaf? He seemed to understand everything Jamie was saying. BTW - I only just now realized it's one actor playing both twins.

I sure hope that we are done with the ether hallucinations!  I'm not a fan.

I didn't know that they are played by the same actor.  Wouldn't it have been easier to get twins to play the role, rather than all that CGI work?

[Scarlett45]

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I sure hope that we are done with the ether hallucinations!  I'm not a fan.

I didn't know that they are played by the same actor.  Wouldn't it have been easier to get twins to play the role, rather than all that CGI work?

Often not- then you have to pay two actors salaries. The CGI work required in the few shots that have the twins standing side by side is cheaper than an entire other person's salary.

[FnkyChkn34]

33 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Often not- then you have to pay two actors salaries. The CGI work required in the few shots that have the twins standing side by side is cheaper than an entire other person's salary.

That's a good point, but I don't think they'd be paying both actors the same salary that they're paying one actor to play two roles.  1 actor in 2 roles (1 bigger salary) + CGI = 2 actors in 2 smaller roles (2 smaller salaries)?  I don't know, definitely interesting to think about!

[DoctorAtomic]

You can also shoot from the back and just have a stand in to save some time too. 

What is the opinion on Allan flipping out when Claire went to pick up the baby's coffin? Not that he wouldn't have a lot of grief for Malva, but the way he was holding the coffin was quite possessive imo. 

[taanja]

9 hours ago, Lily H said:

I am so over Claire. Why does she have to be so weak all the time? The constant self-flagellation over Malva's death, and the hallucinations, and repeatedly dosing herself with the ether. She was in no way responsible for Malva's death, so why all the guilt? That whole last scene was a boring waste of time, with all the crying and whining. 

Where are Bree and Roger going? I must have zoned out during all the religion talk and missed the explanation.

Ummm... she was kidnapped and brutally gang raped. The Malva murder is just icing on her cake of angst and guilt and PTSD. Plus -- have you seen this show? it's all about Claire and her internal angst and pain and guilt.

anyway -- all I have to say is -- you go Lizzie! living the dream girlfriend! 

[Haleth]

27 minutes ago, taanja said:

anyway -- all I have to say is -- you go Lizzie! living the dream girlfriend! 

She's come a long way from the naive girl we met a few seasons ago.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

You can also shoot from the back and just have a stand in to save some time too. 

What is the opinion on Allan flipping out when Claire went to pick up the baby's coffin? Not that he wouldn't have a lot of grief for Malva, but the way he was holding the coffin was quite possessive imo. 

Alan is creepy. I don't like him. That was odd. I too can see them being close, with their mother dead (tried as a witch) and that father of theirs being so evil,  but as out of place as Claire was to pick up the baby's coffin, Alan's reaction pinged me as well.

I still want to know who the father of Malva's baby was, and WHY she would name JAMIE who never touched her as the father of all people. That made no sense. It's likely the actual father killed her.

[DoctorAtomic]

There's a lot going on with the Christie's that's not adding up. Jamie is just so fed up with everything, and knowing the war has started, that he doesn't really have the time to take a step back and take a high level look at everything going on. 

In the conversation thread for the prior episode, Malva naming Jamie seemed like the 'secure' thing to do for the baby. For me, it's hard to believe that she thought of the plan herself. I was also surprised how measured Mr. Christie was in that scene. He yelled more at Allan than anything to Jamie or Claire.

I was similarly surprised at his demeanor in this episode when they found the baby. He was more concerned that she *didn't* have time to pray for forgiveness. His accusation to Claire was also half-hearted at best in terms of him not really countenancing that she did it; though he found it distasteful that she cut out the baby. Allan was, on the other hand, very distraught. Christie certainly doesn't like Claire, but has said that he didn't think of her as a witch, and would prefer she take the traditional role of a woman of the time. However, he still did the surgery and let her stitch him up. 

Add to Allan's behavior in the church, on top of the murder scene and the scene in the living room, and it's hard to think that he's not the father of the baby. The real question is - Does Christie know? If so, would he kill her? I don't think it would be ooc. We have some speculation that she's not his blood daughter iirc, certainly being so devout, he probably flipped his gourd if he found out Allan was the father. I don't think he'd 'cast her out' because it looks bad on him, so trying to rope in Jamie seemed like a sensible option. He didn't plan on Jamie flat out refusing, so at the point, she a 'whore', and probably blamed her for being a 'witch' and seducing Allan. He's got no other option than to kill her. The only other thing I can think of is that she said first it was Jamie's. Because she saw him and Claire macking all farm style, she had some cred in describing him al fresco. With Jamie's refusal, maybe she said that she didn't know because she had sex with a lot of the guys. Christie knows Jamie well enough that with Jamie's refusal, there's no way he thought he was lying. He still tried in this episode because he killed her. 

[Scarlett45]

@DoctorAtomic but if Christie knows that Jamie never touched Malva inappropriately AT ALL, (compared to, yes they had sex, but she had sex with others so he might not be the father), Jamie has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to give Malva ANYTHING. Christie also knows Jamie- he knows Jamie is honorable, so while its not out of the realm that maybe Jamie had sex with Malva (we know he didnt, but I mean to the general public) the notion that he is shouting from the rooftops that he never touched the girl so its 100% NOT his should ping some radars.

Think of it from a 21st century perspective- a married successful guy, who is happy with his wife, is accused of being the father of a new baby that an underling at work just had. If the guy never cheated on his wife and slept with his co-worker, he would say "sure! here's my saliva for a DNA test, can't be mine!"  It's only when he gives the woman money to go away, but never publicly disavows paternity and makes her sign an NDA that we know he did have sex with her, but there's a chance its not his kid.

[DoctorAtomic]

Jamie isn't giving her anything though. He denied everything and threw them out of the house. I was saying maybe Christie gave it a shot to rope Jamie in to caring for the baby, but didn't think Jamie would flat out refuse, so he's kind of stuck with his 'whore daughter and bastard child'. Maybe he found out later it was Allan's. I would think that would be the red line that's crossed where he kills her. 

I was saying Christie assumed 'honorable' Jamie would just say 'ok, I'll sign the contract' to make it all go away. They both surely knew the gossip across the Ridge would make a mess out of everything. (Which, still, no one siding with Jamie is ridiculous to me). Jamie having a mistress isn't unheard of for the times. Jamie being all NOPE *was* more unlikely, but Christie knows well enough that Jamie is telling the truth. Just that he didn't think he'd go there. 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I was saying Christie assumed 'honorable' Jamie would just say 'ok, I'll sign the contract' to make it all go away.

From my point of view, that would be honorable if he actually had sex with her, which we all know he didn't. Why claim you cheated on your wife and perhaps fathered a child with an unmarried woman when you KNOW you didn't. That's lying with NO sort of benefit to yourself- Jamie has no motive to make anything go away when he knows he didn't do anything. 

Christie is so weird, but he's not stupid- something is going on that I am not seeing or the writing is weird. He does seem to hate Malva, but you think he would encourage her to marry the father ASAP, because although he doesn't mind her social ruin, with her unwed, she and the baby remain his responsibility. 

[Shermie]

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's unfortunate, but I'm really not enjoying this show anymore.  I watch it every week hoping that it will get better, and it doesn't.  It's sad, because it has potential, but it's really missing the mark in my opinion.

Why are we re-hashing the "she's a witch!" crap from the first season?  And the second season too, for that matter.  This story has been done - let's put it to bed and not revisit it again.  We get it, she's weird and the people are simple-minded so that they don't understand.  But can't there be more stories to tell that aren't just a retelling of the same, tired plot?  Plus, isn't this about the same time that Benjamin Franklin is experimenting with electricity, and there are other doctors who are advocating for the smallpox inoculation?  Everything that Claire was doing was not so unheard of, just that she was a woman.  I'd prefer to see Jamie stand up for her and make the people understand that women can be equal to men, but I guess that's not a story that Diana Gabaldon would tell...

The only thing I don’t like about these later seasons is that it’s set in America instead of Scotland. American history… yawn.

As for the notion that the things Claire was doing weren’t unheard of, so la-de-da, what’s the big deal? Those things might be happening in large cities within the scientific and intellectual community, but they’re unheard of in rural North Carolina in the 1700s. And the fact that they’re being done by a woman just adds to the “she’s a witch” or whatever uptight theory these unprogressives would have had. Jamie preaching about equality? Ha ha, good luck with that. Again, this is rural North Caroline in the 1700s. Geez, there are people in modern-day America who still think women should be barefoot and pregnant and should keep silent. 

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Add to Allan's behavior in the church, on top of the murder scene and the scene in the living room, and it's hard to think that he's not the father of the baby.

Yeah, this is my thought too. I haven’t read the books, so it’s just based on what DoctorAtomic said. Either Allan was afraid that Malva would eventually spill the beans that he was the father and he killed her to shut her up, or Christie knew Allan was the father and killed Malva to shut her up. Notice that nobody killed the guilty father. Everything is always blamed on women in those days.

[taanja]

27 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

From my point of view, that would be honorable if he actually had sex with her, which we all know he didn't. Why claim you cheated on your wife and perhaps fathered a child with an unmarried woman when you KNOW you didn't. That's lying with NO sort of benefit to yourself- Jamie has no motive to make anything go away when he knows he didn't do anything. 

Christie is so weird, but he's not stupid- something is going on that I am not seeing or the writing is weird. He does seem to hate Malva, but you think he would encourage her to marry the father ASAP, because although he doesn't mind her social ruin, with her unwed, she and the baby remain his responsibility. 

Maybe Tom's been raping his daughter as well as beating her?

We - as the audience- know Jamie didn't impregnate her -- and we "saw" Roger catch Malva and the dude in the church. and we heard Ian admit to sleeping with her the one time. But the other characters are not privy to that. All they know is that Malva stood up in church -- before god and the congregation -- and said that Jaime Fraser is the father.

I am thinking it's that weird family of hers -- either her father or her brother - or hell! both of them! Malva was a victim her whole life -- she tried to take back some agency and got murdered -- brutishly I might add-- for her efforts.
 

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, Shermie said:

As for the notion that the things Claire was doing weren’t unheard of, so la-de-da, what’s the big deal? Those things might be happening in large cities within the scientific and intellectual community, but they’re unheard of in rural North Carolina in the 1700s. And the fact that they’re being done by a woman just adds to the “she’s a witch” or whatever uptight theory these unprogressives would have had. Jamie preaching about equality? Ha ha, good luck with that. Again, this is rural North Caroline in the 1700s. Geez, there are people in modern-day America who still think women should be barefoot and pregnant and should keep silent. 

Right.  But are you actually entertained by this still?  It's the same thing from previous seasons, lather, rinse, repeat.  We've already seen it - I'd like to see something else with these same main characters.  They could be so much more if they didn't have to keep doing the same things over and over again.  JMO.

[DoctorAtomic]

I mean, I wouldn't admit something I didn't do either, and I'd be way less polite than Jamie. I also can afford a good lawyer. They didn't have due process just yet in the coloniesStates. I'm trying to put myself in the living room in 1775 with the vastly over importance of propriety and religion. The likely scenario imo is Jamie just pays for this to go away and they sweep it under the rug and that's it. Let's face it, Jamie inventing the first amendment, and all liberty this and that, he's not the typical colonial landowner. He said himself he'd probably be a loyalist without Claire's future history, and I'd even bet, no Claire, he takes the deal. 

Even Jamie was all huffy about getting Lizzie married in this episode and couldn't even grasp the threeway. Claire was having a tough time digesting while Lizzy was going on how hot three way sex is and they look EXACTLY the same. We're talking about a social context that doesn't exist here anymore. To a point. 

45 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

He does seem to hate Malva, but you think he would encourage her to marry the father ASAP, because although he doesn't mind her social ruin, with her unwed, she and the baby remain his responsibility.

1 - Unless the father is Allan, and 2 - She's not his responsibility if she's dead. He barely could mount an accusation against Claire. 

8 minutes ago, taanja said:

All they know is that Malva stood up in church -- before god and the congregation -- and said that Jaime Fraser is the father.

Did she actually say 'Jamie Fraser?'

I don't think Allan killed her because he's too much of a whiny bitch to be that cold, and he's been way way over emotional in the living room and the church with grabbing the coffin from Claire. It's not like Mavla was beaten or stabbed in a fit of passion. This was a cold, calculated murder. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Shermie]

Yes, I’m entertained by it still. I think the entire concept lends itself to lather, rinse, repeat - Claire and/or Bree and/or Roger (to a lesser extent) say or do something that comes from modern times and adapts it to olden times. It causes trouble in some way - either because it’s too mysterious for olden time people to comprehend or because they’re messing with history, intentionally or not. 

Perhaps they could move the storytelling along though. I do think they spent way too much time on Claire and the ether, regardless of how justified she is in feeling like she needs it. Fergus’s alcoholism was introduced, escalated, came to a head, and was resolved in what, 4 episodes? Not sure how many episodes are left in this season, but we all know it’s leading to the American Revolution (or is it?) and the fire, so let’s get on with it.

I actually find the side characters and stories add entertainment. Fergus and Marsali are great, not sure why they’re written out; is that because the actors don’t want to do it, or because the books did it?

And Lizzie and the twins was an amusing diversion. The way she casually described how fantastic sex was and how yes, she did it with one brother and then the other, and then back to the first - is that wrong? Such wide-eyed innocence describing something that was not. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Shermie said:

Not sure how many episodes are left in this season,

One more. Next week is the season finale. Short season due to Cait's real life pregnancy.

[tennisgurl]

In the midst of all the turmoil, I really liked Bree and Roger talking about Perry Mason over the dinner table, and that when Ian asked about him they talked about him like he's a real person, some much needed comedy. It would be hilarious if Bree and Roger just kept making small pop culture references from their time but always forget to tell Ian that what they're talking about isn't real. Ian becomes very concerned about those poor people on that island who got stranded after their three hour tour sometime in the future! 

Jamie just spent this whole episode so extremely over it. His reactions this season have all been great, I especially loved his face as Lizzie explained how she couldn't tell him which twin she had been with, he just looked like he was desperately trying to find the proper reaction to all of this. Lizzie certainly has come a long way from that shy girl we first met.

Its really too bad that Claire cant stop by the 70s for just a spell, she could really use some therapy. She has clearly not even gotten close to dealing with the trauma of her rape, and that on top of everything else that has happened to her and her family (who are just magnets for misfortune) is really catching up with her. She knows intellectually that none of this is her fault, but the trauma and stress, and now being accused of murder and witchcraft again after finding Malva and her child's bodies, its all hitting her. Really, after all of the horrific things the main characters have been through with very little in the way of professional help, its amazing how well they're all doing. Of course this all has to happen now, so she isn't on the top of her game after a girl she seemingly has a motive to murder shows up dead in the lawn. And now guy shave come to arrest her, just when Bree and Roger have left, so now they have even fewer people on their side at the Ridge. 

Its really gotten ridiculous how many times Claire can be accused of witchcraft, especially now in the colonial era new world. You almost expect Mr. Christie to accuse her of turning him into a newt. My guess is that the father of her baby is her brother, the two of them have a weird dynamic, the whole family is creepy. Maybe he's the one that killed her? 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

I do think they spent way too much time on Claire and the ether, regardless of how justified she is in feeling like she needs it.

I was actually pleasantly surprised it was resolved. I thought it might drag on more. 

With only the one episode left, I don't think it's necessary to get to the fire, but this whole murder business needs to be resolved. Or even not getting to the time traveler. I'd prefer they not end on a cliffhanger, like with Claire in jail or something. I'd have a big laugh if Jamie got some Perry Mason like confession out of whomever the murderer is. I don't think the so-called safety committee is interested in due process, but the head guy there wouldn't be able to turn down an actual confession. I don't see how they'd be convinced otherwise, and even then, the confession has to come from someone they consider reliable. 

Question then - who summoned the safety committee? It can't be Christie. No way he wants anyone else to know what happened. I just don't think he has it in for Claire. Allan? He'd be dumb enough and he's certainly acting out. 

Does anyone know the date of the fire in relation where we are on the show?

[areca]

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What is the opinion on Allan flipping out when Claire went to pick up the baby's coffin? Not that he wouldn't have a lot of grief for Malva, but the way he was holding the coffin was quite possessive imo. 

Bastard or no, it was his nephew.

[Cdh20]

Now that I have read ahead of the show, I really miss these episode threads where we try to solve the mystery, and predict the future. I still love reading them. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Is Keziah deaf? He seemed to understand everything Jamie was saying. BTW - I only just now realized it's one actor playing both twins.

He seemed like he had to really focus on Jamie and spoke hesitantly.

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I didn't know that they are played by the same actor.  Wouldn't it have been easier to get twins to play the role, rather than all that CGI work?

I asked about that when Morag and Mallenroh were cast with non-identical actresses in The Shannara Chronicles, and Terry Brooks's Web Druid said it's not very easy to find a pair of identical twins where both are actors. They certainly exist (the Sprouses, the Ashmores) but they're not so common that you can have your pick of them, and have them match the character description and be available for your show.

But scenes with both Jo and Kezzie in the same shot are pretty rare.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Haleth]

17 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What is the opinion on Allan flipping out when Claire went to pick up the baby's coffin?

Speaking of the baby's coffin, I thought it was odd the baby had his own little coffin and wasn't just placed in his mother's coffin.

[DoctorAtomic]

iirc, they showed Allan making the coffins, so it was his idea. Very telling there. 

I'm going to be totally ripped if we're wrong. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by DoctorAtomic