S06.E11: Saturday in the Park

[CountryGirl]

14 hours ago, pennben said:

She confronted him because he lied by omission to her on a pretty huge piece of information—-that he could have had a job back in LA as they planned. 

Toby: Does something wrong

Audience: Damnit Kate, why did you make him do this wrong thing & why don’t you react perfectly when Toby’s breached your trust again?

Me: stop making me point out when Kate has a point. 

Toby not telling her that he had another job offer in the same city as where she and the kids were living and that he had received the offer at least two week's prior to her visit to SF is not a small thing. I'd say it's a BFD. When he took the job offer in SF, it was with the understanding between them that he would look for another job in LA. Lo and behold, such an opportunity comes up and yet he chooses to talk about it with other people, his boss included, but doesn't think to tell his wife. People also are assuming that it was a nothing job, with nothing pay, when we have zero proof that it was, except his say so and this coming from someone who sputtered things like "it was a joke" instead of actual facts. And if it was truly a "joke," why mention it to your boss at all? Why tell your boss and not your spouse. Things to make you go hmm.

This from the same person who has lied by omission in the past. If it was a truly "joke" offer, then why not just say what about the offer made it a "joke" in his eyes. It's so easy to just open your mouth and say the words. It was X under his current salary, it would be a ton of travel, whatever, but don't you owe your wife the truth? I cannot imagine a universe in the world where my spouse would keep something that huge from me, for starters, let alone refusing to answer my questions. I'm his spouse and if that doesn't entitle me to the truth about potentially life-changing news, then I don't know what does. This is not sharing every little thing - this is sharing a very huge thing. And even if it wasn't a big thing for me (which hell yes it woudl be), it was a big thing for Kate. What I think or don't think is irrelevant because last time I checked, I am not Kate. Her views, not mine, are the ones that matter and should matter to Toby.

There was all this speculation that Kate wouldn't share that she had applied for the full-time position and how she was doing the same thing Toby did (and what that has to do with his actions like her actions in the future could turn back time and effect what he did in the past is lost on me) and on and on.  Just like there are leaps to conclusions that the reason Jack associates the BGE with his parents' marriage ending is because evil Kate told him so. When again, where did that happen in any scene in any episode ever?

Except she did tell him about the full-time position and very quickly as the very next episode that picks up where The Hill left off is them fighting over it, so that negated that line of thinking right there. Kate is many things but she hasn't been shown to be a liar and while I am not always her biggest fan, I can appreciate that she's honest.

I strongly suspect Toby never would have told her had she not found out from his boss at the party and let that sink in for a moment.

Toby not telling her tells me all I need to know about how he feels about Kate at this point. She's an afterthought and I will be fair and say it is the same for her with him. 

Toby has a pattern of lying - either outright or by omission that has absolutely nothing to do with Kate. I don't care how terrible Kate was or is, that doesn't negate his actions. Nor do her actions make it okay for him to do wrong things or make her deserving of such treatment. Even worse is the thought that Kate is such a mean, evil this or that, that poor, put-upon Toby is simply compelled to do wrong things. Wrong is wrong is wrong. If she has to own her shit, then so does he.

Also, I am not going to get hung up on Kate, upon being blindsided with the news that her husband had lied to her about potential life-changing news (since again, him being able to work in LA and all of them under the same roof is a BFD), wanting to leave the party immediately. She didn't make a scene, she wasn't yelling, we didn't see anyone staring at them. She firmly stated (not shouted) that they were leaving. So what if they didn't make the rounds and say goodbye to everyone. I have gone to more work parties et al than I can count and rarely do I say goodbye when I head out. It's the same when I have hosted parties and I don't assume people are rude if they don't stop to say goodbye. 

I find it very interesting that it's seemingly more significant that Kate wanted to leave the party than Toby's lie that created the early exit. Equally interesting to me is the implication that Toby being the breadwinner seems to somehow translate that whatever he wants to do, whatever he chooses to share with Kate, is de facto the right thing and she just has to suck it up and deal. Why is that? A question for the universe. Other questions I have pondered over these past few episodes. Why does Toby always get the benefit of the doubt? Why have his actions always been hand-waved? And the answer cannot be "well, Kate is terrible or sucks or...or...or" Because again, that takes the ownership away from him. 

As an aside, I am the primary breadwinner in my house and have been for most of my marriage, but it matters not to the decision-making in my family. We do things as a team, which is as it should be. I don't keep things from my husband, I don't dictate our living situation, I don't have the only or final say on major purchases, and I don't consider my spouse an afterthought because his salary is less than mine. 

As sad as it will be to see the demise of their marriage, especially with two young kids involved, it will, I think, be a relief to both of them. It will certainly be a relief to this viewer. If Kate is truly the bane of Toby's existence, then by all means she should remove herself from the equation and vice versa. 

[CountryGirl]

11 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

In that situation, I would've already been so put off by her actions at the party and the confrontational/accusatory attitude, I wouldn't have discussed it further, either.  Not saying that's the right or most mature response, but I related to Toby in that moment! 

"The fact is, it was a good offer..." assumes a lot that wasn't stated.  I mean, I assume a lot, too, but in the other direction (i.e. that it was NOT a good offer, and Toby knew that, all things considered, it wasn't practical or feasible to pursue it). 

This is a perfect example of my points. There seems to be a double standard where it's understandable and relatable when Toby acts incorrectly or immaturely, but zero quarter is given Kate for anything, ever. He lied, but she has zero right to be upset. Not only that, because she was visibly upset and made them leave the party that they needed to leave anyway to make their dinner reservation, it's okay that he dug in his heels and refused to tell her the truth about the offer. 

It's this kind of thing that makes me want to defend Kate, someone with whom I've had a love-hate relationship through the series.

[cameron]

Personally, so over the Kate character and her thinking that the teaching assistant job she has helping blind children to sing is the end all to be all job in the world.  Just another Pearson manifestation.  Think it's just an opportunity to let Chrissy sing on the show.

[GeorgiaRai]

12 hours ago, debraran said:

Anyone have an idea why they had Toby and Kate adopt their daughter? I thought it was odd that they were picked, not so much because of Chrissy's weight, that shouldn't impede but I thought as a mom, her having a child so young with a disability that needed a lot of time and learning, they wouldn't be my top pick. They rarely show her or interact with her or even mention her in passing. I just feel with breaking them up and the show ending, was it for something Dan thought of after? Maybe a spinoff?

This is such an interesting question! 

Initially I thought maybe they wanted a 3rd baby to share the twins' birthday so the "twins plus one" could be written as a new version of the Big Three. That doesn't really make sense, though because it excludes Baby Jack. 

Did Fogelberg's sister adopt?   Maybe there was a real-life inspiration, but in the context of the show? No idea.

[Rootbeer]

13 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I understand that's your perspective; I just see it very differently.  He got some information that was meaningless - a joke, in his words - not worth consideration.  Not everything you keep to yourself is a lie.   

Your theoretical conversation assumes everyone agrees Toby did "something wrong".  But we don't all agree on that.  Or at least I don't agree on that (don't want to speak for anyone else.)  

That is my impression, too.  Toby thought the job offer was clearly not worth considering, so why mention it?  I also do not feel that their original agreement; that Toby would look for a job in LA, meant that he was obligated to take the first thing that came along, whether it was enough to support them or not, whether he liked the details of the job or not.  Nor was it written in stone and there was no flexibility inherent in the plan.  Most couples change and evolve as circumstances change, Kate has shown that she isn't someone who is able to do that easily.  She apparently hasn't even considered that she could find a job in SF in a comparable setting to the one she already has, especially since she has the luxury of working for 'fun' and no responsibility to support the family.

I've known quite a few couples who had to live in separate cities for work for a period of time and, in most cases, they remained flexible as to where their final destination would be, waiting to see how things worked out,  It's particularly common in higher paying professions like Toby is in; you've got to go where the opportunities are.

Quote

Think it's just an opportunity to let Chrissy sing on the show.

UO:  I don't think Chrissy is anything special as a singer, don't know why the show would want to showcase that aspect of her talent.  It's really been clear the couple of times she's performed with Mandy Moore; she just isn't that talented.  Which made the whole, "I have no training or experience, I haven't sung regularly in 20 years; but I deserve to front a band as lead singer in LA" storyline so ridiculous.

Quote

Initially I thought maybe they wanted a 3rd baby to share the twins' birthday so the "twins plus one" could be written as a new version of the Big Three. That doesn't really make sense, though because it excludes Baby Jack

If they did, it was pretty poor planning considering the show was always slated to last 6 seasons and, even with the time jump to Rebecca's death, all the kids are just middle schoolers.  Having Kate and Toby adopt just so they could do a flash forward scene or two with all the kids as adults seems a waste, too.  They've got a lot of other characters whose stories would be far more interesting to the viewers than that of the infants born during the show.  Like Annie!  Where is she?  What is she doing?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CountryGirl]

I am not one who thought their agreement meant Toby had to automatically take the first job in LA that came along, no questions asked, and my sense from reading posts is that few have stated that he was required to do so. I took their conversation to mean that if offers presented themselves, he would discuss with Kate and they would determine, together, whether it made sense for their family. I don't see that as an unreasonable conclusion to take from that conversation between this married couple.

 

[GeorgiaRai]

14 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

but zero quarter is given Kate for anything, ever.

Ever?  Speaking only for myself, it was the PMJ wedding flash forward that first made me give Kate the side-eye, and only in the two recent episodes about their current situation have I felt Toby was treated/written unfairly.  I resent what I feel is the show force-feeding me a "Toby is terrible" sandwich at this stage of the game.  Granted, the writers may redeem themselves, but for now, the angst serves no purpose but to support Kate's remarriage.

I'm really curious what the writers' intent was here, because it seems set up to make anyone who cares about Kate & Toby pick sides in their split.  I wonder if the show thinks they're making one character (either character) seem virtuous and one seem villianous - and finding out the fans aren't reacting as anticipated. Or do they think they're being even-handed and showing flaws in both?  If so, I don't think that's been successful.

All that being said, though, I understand & sympathize with a lot of things in all of these characters, but Kate's reaction at the office party and the way she confronted her husband? Inexcusable.  Having been on the receiving end of this kind similar behavior, I'm on the side of the accused here, not the accuser.    (And I disagree that "he lied".)

[Rootbeer]

10 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I am not one who thought their agreement meant Toby had to automatically take the first job in LA that came along, no questions asked, and my sense from reading posts is that few have stated that he was required to do so. I took their conversation to mean that if offers presented themselves, he would discuss with Kate and they would determine, together, whether it made sense for their family. I don't see that as an unreasonable conclusion to take from that conversation between this married couple.

 

I guess I feel that Kate is so determined to remain in LA that she would indeed expect Toby to take whatever he was offered.  She obviously doesn't trust his judgment that the job offer was a non-starter since she kept asking about the salary.  I expect that she would've demanded that he take the job no matter what the salary was; she is that invested in staying in LA.  Kate and Toby probably have different ideas as to what constitutes a good salary for Toby and it is clear that Kate feels no responsibility to contribute financially.  She seemingly has lived her entire life with other people paying the big bills for her and I expect her perception as to how much they need to support themselves is not accurate.

What if Toby had told her about the offer the minute it came in; the details of the job, what it paid, etc, etc?  Then, told her that he didn't think it was worth it; even explained how much more he was making and how much he liked his current gig.  What if Kate disagreed with him?  Would he then be obligated to take the job because Kate wanted him to?   Even for a worse job?  Because that's what it seems like some people think.  That Kate should have had ultimate control over Toby's job.  Does anyone really think Kate wouldn't have told him to take it?  Based on the way she's been written, I think Kate would've insisted.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I'm really curious what the writers' intent was here, because it seems set up to make anyone who cares about Kate & Toby pick sides in their split.  I wonder if the show thinks they're making one character (either character) seem virtuous and one seem villianous - and finding out the fans aren't reacting as anticipated. Or do they think they're being even-handed and showing flaws in both?  If so, I don't think that's been successful.

I go back and forth on this one a lot. On the one hand, it's ratings gold if they can have split fan-bases. See also Kevison and Kophie. But I might be at a table for one or maybe a few others (a bistro LOL) but I do see the flaws and foibles in both characters and have moments where I want to strangle each and hug each. I went back and forth with those emotions several times in the last episode alone.

Like wanting to hug them when they were with Jack at the park. Or wanting to strangle them when they started to snipe at each other in the kitchen. Wanting to strangle Kate for bitching about the mattress. Wanting to strangle and hug them when they learned Jack was missing. I did not want to strangle them when they were fighting outside because they need to get all of this out to have any chance of salvaging their marriage. I kind of wanted to strangle Kevin and Randall when they overstayed their welcome instead of saying one thing to defuse the fight and leaving. And yep I wanted to strangle Kate for not saying "we're good" and for letting Toby leave. And I was back to wanting to hug her again when she realized why Jack went to the park. Ditto for Toby when he was sobbing in Jack's room. I was so glad he got some comfort from Rebecca.  

They both adore their kids and I think there is still some love there between them, so it is incredibly sad that they can't work things out. 

[CountryGirl]

7 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I guess I feel that Kate is so determined to remain in LA that she would indeed expect Toby to take whatever he was offered.  She obviously doesn't trust his judgment that the job offer was a non-starter since she kept asking about the salary.  I expect that she would've demanded that he take the job no matter what the salary was; she is that invested in staying in LA.  Kate and Toby probably have different ideas as to what constitutes a good salary for Toby and it is clear that Kate feels no responsibility to contribute financially.  She seemingly has lived her entire life with other people paying the big bills for her and I expect her perception as to how much they need to support themselves is not accurate.

I can understand that and that Kate has a skewed view of the big picture financially, but she still was entitled to hear the full details from Toby, preferably proactively rather than being found out. I think it's that he told his boss and not her that really set her off (and again, why share a nothing/joke offer with your boss?) His being evasive put her on the defensive. If he had told her from the get-go and it had truly been a nothing offer (where it wasn't financially reasonable, etc.) and she dug her heels in, then I would have an issue with Kate at that point for not being willing to compromise. 

For me, I have to go off what we were shown. We will never know how Kate would have reacted had he told her the details because that is not what happened on screen.

[Ohiopirate02]

40 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I find it very interesting that it's seemingly more significant that Kate wanted to leave the party than Toby's lie that created the early exit. Equally interesting to me is the implication that Toby being the breadwinner seems to somehow translate that whatever he wants to do, whatever he chooses to share with Kate, is de facto the right thing and she just has to suck it up and deal. Why is that? A question for the universe. Other questions I have pondered over these past few episodes. Why does Toby always get the benefit of the doubt? Why have his actions always been hand-waved? And the answer cannot be "well, Kate is terrible or sucks or...or...or" Because again, that takes the ownership away from him. 

 

When I was 12, my family moved 600 miles away from home for my dad's job.  It was the right decision for my family, but it was not easy.  My mother was miserable for years after the move.  My dad's job required long hours and many overnights because you can't work on a cell phone network during the day.  And here's my mom with 4 kids living in a new town with zero friends.  My dad tried to be home for dinner every night, but there were some days when we would only see him for an hour before he had to leave again.  He would also make sure he was always at my brothers' sporting events, even if he drove there from work and left right after.  He would have been there for my games, but I had to quit playing sports.  Four kids with one reliable parent means someone has to sacrifice and my older brother is, was, and always will be mom's favorite.  It did eventually get better, but it took like 5 years.  My dad's workload started leveling out as he moved up the ladder and could send others to do the work.  My parents also found friends at church both individually and as a couple.

Kate moving with the kids to SF will be tough on her.  She will be alone with the kids in a city with zero friends.  It will also be hard for her to make friends as a SAHM.  When she takes the kids to the park, she's going to be around nannies.  That is the reality of 21st century parenting.  Stay at home parents are a dying breed.  Two income households are the norm.  Toby will be working his long hours and will be lucky to make it home for dinner and bedtime before hopping on another call.  This is behavior we have already seen from him.  Then there's all the after hours work events his boss likes to throw.  Of course, Toby will be at those, and for some Kate will be invited.  Kate is looking at a rough few years living in SF.  

[GeorgiaRai]

6 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I go back and forth on this one a lot. On the one hand, it's ratings gold if they can have split fan-bases. See also Kevison and Kophie. But I might be at a table for one or maybe a few others (a bistro LOL) but I do see the flaws and foibles in both characters and have moments where I want to strangle each and hug each. I went back and forth with those emotions several times in the last episode alone.

Like wanting to hug them when they were with Jack at the park. Or wanting to strangle them when they started to snipe at each other in the kitchen. Wanting to strangle Kate for bitching about the mattress. Wanting to strangle and hug them when they learned Jack was missing. I did not want to strangle them when they were fighting outside because they need to get all of this out to have any chance of salvaging their marriage. I kind of wanted to strangle Kevin and Randall when they overstayed their welcome instead of saying one thing to defuse the fight and leaving. And yep I wanted to strangle Kate for not saying "we're good" and for letting Toby leave. And I was back to wanting to hug her again when she realized why Jack went to the park. Ditto for Toby when he was sobbing in Jack's room. I was so glad he got some comfort from Rebecca.  

They both adore their kids and I think there is still some love there between them, so it is incredibly sad that they can't work things out. 

YES!!!! To all of this!!! 

[Rootbeer]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

 

For me, I have to go off what we were shown. We will never know how Kate would have reacted had he told her the details because that is not what happened on screen.

True, but, as we do with real people in our lives, we take what we've seen of them and extrapolate and can predict.  I've seen enough of Kate and her rigidity and her need to be coddled that I do not think she would've responded well no matter how or when she found out about the job offer in LA.  I can picture no scenario in which she would have ever agreed with Toby that it was not a viable option.  YMMV.

[GeorgiaRai]

27 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

If they did, it was pretty poor planning considering the show was always slated to last 6 seasons and, even with the time jump to Rebecca's death, all the kids are just middle schoolers.  Having Kate and Toby adopt just so they could do a flash forward scene or two with all the kids as adults seems a waste, too.  They've got a lot of other characters whose stories would be far more interesting to the viewers than that of the infants born during the show. 

I agree - it doesn't make sense. But none of the adoption story line makes sense to me, so I was grasping at straws! 

[peeayebee]

14 hours ago, pennben said:

She confronted him because he lied by omission to her on a pretty huge piece of information—-that he could have had a job back in LA as they planned. 

Toby: Does something wrong

Audience: Damnit Kate, why did you make him do this wrong thing & why don’t you react perfectly when Toby’s breached your trust again?

Me: stop making me point out when Kate has a point. 

Your last line made me LOL.

13 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I understand that's your perspective; I just see it very differently.  He got some information that was meaningless - a joke, in his words - not worth consideration.  Not everything you keep to yourself is a lie.   

Good point.

12 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I fall into the camp that if the LA offer was really a joke, then Toby would have told her the number when Kate asked. 

Good point.

Good points all around!

I can see that to Toby, taking the job in LA would have been a bad decision. Maybe it wasn't the pay that was the issue -- I agree that his silence when Kate asked him How much indicates it was pretty good -- so there could have been other issues, like simply how the work itself or the company itself paled in comparison to the SF job. IOW, the job in SF was completely fulfilling to Toby, so any other job would likely be a big disappointment.

However, I think he should have told Kate about the offer and why he didn't want to accept it. He should have told her the day he received the offer.  

Of course in drama there is always a lack of communication. Characters keep things to themselves or there are misunderstandings or whatever. 

 

12 hours ago, Adgirl said:

I hope after the divorce Toby finds a woman that appreciates his ankle cleavage and tight shirts.

Ankle cleavage?

[CountryGirl]

I never understood them adopting Hailey. Not the adoption per se as Kate was advised not to have any more children, but the timing. Jack wasn't even a year old and they had their hands full, but were charging ahead nonetheless.

[cameron]

20 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When I was 12, my family moved 600 miles away from home for my dad's job.  It was the right decision for my family, but it was not easy.  My mother was miserable for years after the move.  My dad's job required long hours and many overnights because you can't work on a cell phone network during the day.  And here's my mom with 4 kids living in a new town with zero friends.  My dad tried to be home for dinner every night, but there were some days when we would only see him for an hour before he had to leave again.  He would also make sure he was always at my brothers' sporting events, even if he drove there from work and left right after.  He would have been there for my games, but I had to quit playing sports.  Four kids with one reliable parent means someone has to sacrifice and my older brother is, was, and always will be mom's favorite.  It did eventually get better, but it took like 5 years.  My dad's workload started leveling out as he moved up the ladder and could send others to do the work.  My parents also found friends at church both individually and as a couple.

Kate moving with the kids to SF will be tough on her.  She will be alone with the kids in a city with zero friends.  It will also be hard for her to make friends as a SAHM.  When she takes the kids to the park, she's going to be around nannies.  That is the reality of 21st century parenting.  Stay at home parents are a dying breed.  Two income households are the norm.  Toby will be working his long hours and will be lucky to make it home for dinner and bedtime before hopping on another call.  This is behavior we have already seen from him.  Then there's all the after hours work events his boss likes to throw.  Of course, Toby will be at those, and for some Kate will be invited.  Kate is looking at a rough few years living in SF.  

I call it life.  Happens in everyday life, everywhere.  Try moving to a foreign country where you don't speak the language with a two year old and don't know anyone.  People do it; they learn to adjust.

Edited April 8, 2022 by cameron

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I never understood them adopting Hailey. Not the adoption per se as Kate was advised not to have any more children, but the timing. Jack wasn't even a year old and they had their hands full, but were charging ahead nonetheless.

I get someone like Kate would want Jack to have a sibling.  Deciding to adopt was the right call.  The process should have taken years, but it's a TV show.  I don't think Kate and Toby expected to get Hailey as soon as they did.  

 

[CountryGirl]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I get someone like Kate would want Jack to have a sibling.  Deciding to adopt was the right call.  The process should have taken years, but it's a TV show.  I don't think Kate and Toby expected to get Hailey as soon as they did.  

 

I think it's fine they adopted and totally get them wanting Jack to have a sibling. It just seemed so rushed to me, but yes, TV can make magic happen. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, cameron said:

I call it life.  Happens in everyday life, everywhere.

Shall I go on and completely describe what it was like as the eldest daughter to a miserable woman?  The years of her taking out all of her frustrations on me to the point that I seriously contemplated suicide? 

[Boo Boo]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:13 PM, Jeddah said:

Hailey’s birth mother picked them because she liked how they fought. Oops.

This was truly one of the dumbest storylines.  Let's choose a morbidly obese mother of a blind son and her hefty husband to raise my child when there are thousands, if not millions of more fit couples that would adopt her baby, because I just love how they fight!

Edited April 10, 2022 by Boo Boo

[Rootbeer]

20 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When I was 12, my family moved 600 miles away from home for my dad's job.  It was the right decision for my family, but it was not easy.  My mother was miserable for years after the move.  My dad's job required long hours and many overnights because you can't work on a cell phone network during the day.  And here's my mom with 4 kids living in a new town with zero friends.  My dad tried to be home for dinner every night, but there were some days when we would only see him for an hour before he had to leave again.  He would also make sure he was always at my brothers' sporting events, even if he drove there from work and left right after.  He would have been there for my games, but I had to quit playing sports.  Four kids with one reliable parent means someone has to sacrifice and my older brother is, was, and always will be mom's favorite.  It did eventually get better, but it took like 5 years.  My dad's workload started leveling out as he moved up the ladder and could send others to do the work.  My parents also found friends at church both individually and as a couple.

Kate moving with the kids to SF will be tough on her.  She will be alone with the kids in a city with zero friends.  It will also be hard for her to make friends as a SAHM.  When she takes the kids to the park, she's going to be around nannies.  That is the reality of 21st century parenting.  Stay at home parents are a dying breed.  Two income households are the norm.  Toby will be working his long hours and will be lucky to make it home for dinner and bedtime before hopping on another call.  This is behavior we have already seen from him.  Then there's all the after hours work events his boss likes to throw.  Of course, Toby will be at those, and for some Kate will be invited.  Kate is looking at a rough few years living in SF.  

I'm sorry things were so tough for you.  However, there are many, many families that survive big moves and manage to thrive.  Look at all the military families who pick up stakes and move every few years.

As for friends, Kate doesn't seem to have many friends in LA, either.  Except for Madison who has twin babies and a fiance to occupy her these day.  I would expect that she will want to try to work with kids and music again if she were to move to SF and that she wouldn't be a SAHM.

[PepSinger]

8 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Where the hell does Kate think she's getting medical insurance coverage as a dependent along with their two children?  That's got to be a huge benefit from Toby's SF job right there.  No matter how much she wants to leech off her rich brother, Kevin is not able to insure his sister, niece and nephew through his own health insurance coverage.

 

8 hours ago, pennben said:

 

Are you suggesting that upon divorce Toby has no obligation at all to provide his children insurance coverage?  Great deal for him!!

 

Honestly? This could work out in several ways. I used to deal with insurance for services that the company rendered to children. Sometimes children would be on BOTH parents’ policies, and there are certain rules, which I won’t go into here, that determines which policy would be billed first and which policy would be billed second. Other times, they would just be on one parent’s policy. For Toby and Kate, depending upon the divorce and custody settlement, they could both be required to have both kids on both of their insurance policies, or they could come to an agreement that they stay on Toby’s. It all depends.

Edited April 8, 2022 by PepSinger

[gonzosgirrl]

14 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I understand that's your perspective; I just see it very differently.  He got some information that was meaningless - a joke, in his words - not worth consideration.  Not everything you keep to yourself is a lie.   

Your theoretical conversation assumes everyone agrees Toby did "something wrong".  But we don't all agree on that.  Or at least I don't agree on that (don't want to speak for anyone else.)  

*raises hand* As long you're making this kind of sense, go right ahead and speak for me :)

In my mind, he got defensive and dug in about not naming the salary because Kate was being such a bitch about the whole thing at that point. It seemed that his colleagues had heard nothing but glowing things about Toby's wife and family prior to that party - I'm betting they were wondering who this woman was but the time they left.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I'm sorry things were so tough for you.  However, there are many, many families that survive big moves and manage to thrive.  Look at all the military families who pick up stakes and move every few years.

As for friends, Kate doesn't seem to have many friends in LA, either.  Except for Madison who has twin babies and a fiance to occupy her these day.  I would expect that she will want to try to work with kids and music again if she were to move to SF and that she wouldn't be a SAHM.

Military families are not a good comparison though.  They have a whole network of families moving from base to base. They have their own difficulties which are different than what Kate will go through.   And she would have difficulties moving to SF for Toby's job.  I didn't realize wanting to acknowledging them would inspire this kind of debate and whataboutism.

[Rootbeer]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Military families are not a good comparison though.  They have a whole network of families moving from base to base. They have their own difficulties which are different than what Kate will go through.   And she would have difficulties moving to SF for Toby's job.  I didn't realize wanting to acknowledging them would inspire this kind of debate and whataboutism.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, but, even outside the military; people can and do successfully move for their work and manage to build a life in a new community.  While it can be difficult given their circumstances, it is not impossible.  Amongst other things, it seems like Toby's co-workers were good people and would've been able to help Kate get involved in the community after a move.  It isn't easy to move, but, in Kate's case, the alternative is seemingly to end her marriage and that is no walk in the park, either.

[Jeddah]

21 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I'm sorry things were so tough for you.  However, there are many, many families that survive big moves and manage to thrive.  Look at all the military families who pick up stakes and move every few years.

My family moved to Saudi Arabia when I was a kid, and being a third culture family was a great thing for my family. That doesn’t mean it’s great for every family. Just because people do it all the time doesn’t mean Kate should have to. It worked for my family because my parents talked about it and wanted to do it. They also set a deadline of when we would come back. If one of them had been against it, we wouldn’t have moved.

[Gemma Violet]

55 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I can see that to Toby, taking the job in LA would have been a bad decision. Maybe it wasn't the pay that was the issue -- I agree that his silence when Kate asked him How much indicates it was pretty good -- so there could have been other issues, like simply how the work itself or the company itself paled in comparison to the SF job. IOW, the job in SF was completely fulfilling to Toby, so any other job would likely be a big disappointment.

This.  Toby's silence about the pay indicates it was comparable to what he's making in San Francisco.  Except there's more to liking a job than just the salary--there's liking the daily work you do, liking the people you work with and them liking you, the fringe benefits, etc.  I don't blame him for not mentioning it to Kate.  When she heard the salary, she would have insisted that Toby switch jobs.  His love of his present job & co-workers would mean nothing to her.  And if he took the job and came back to L.A. and was miserable each and every day, she would be happy because she'd have her old miserable depressed Toby back.  And that's basically her problem--Toby got his life together, lost weight, got over his depression, became a happy successful man, and she is envious of that.

I'd love to see a spin-off show with Toby with a new wife who appreciates him and doesn't nag him to death.  

 

[Lisa418722]

As far as Toby turning down the job in LA, everyone is focused entirely on how much money he was going to make. What about benefits?  I know someone whose husband has FANTASTIC benefits - as in it was cheaper to add her to his insurance rather than her having insurance through her employer.  My last job the insurance was so expensive if I had a husband who needed insurance, I would be paying to work because of the cost (it was expensive enough for just me).  Maybe this job has other benefits that weren't mentioned. 

[CountryGirl]

55 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*raises hand* As long you're making this kind of sense, go right ahead and speak for me :)

In my mind, he got defensive and dug in about not naming the salary because Kate was being such a bitch about the whole thing at that point. It seemed that his colleagues had heard nothing but glowing things about Toby's wife and family prior to that party - I'm betting they were wondering who this woman was but the time they left.

That is taking ownership away from Toby's actions and putting them on Kate, which is not fair. Toby held all the information, information he clearly had no problem sharing with his boss (who was the one to tell Kate).  He should have been the one to tell her when the offer came in. His deception created the situation for her to be blindsided by his boss. She was hurt and embarrassed as I would have been if I learned that my spouse shared key information with someone who wasn't me before even talking to me and add on not even telling me?? I would have been pissed off, too, but only Toby is allowed to be angry? And I still stand by Toby never telling her had he not been found out. I don't blame her for wanting to leave.

I'm also not seeing where Kate so much as raised her voice. She walked over to Toby, who was standing by himself, near the foyer, close to the staircase leading upstairs, and also leading to the front door and said, not shouted, "We're leaving." They step closer to the doorway, out of sight of most of the guests. She then walked away. She didn't yell, she didn't raise her voice, she didn't make any sort of scene whatsoever. Her very minor response at that party is being made into something that wasn't shown, that Kate threw a fit and brought the party to a halt or something. The other party-goers shouldn't have thought a thing of it because there wasn't anything in what we were shown to indicate they saw, much less heard, their interaction. There were a couple of guests in a room adjacent to the hallway and they didn't even blink at seeing the two of them talking or leaving.

[Crs97]

I’ve always had a soft spot for Toby, but he was definitely problematic early in their relationship.  The same people who say he should have known he was getting a wife co-dependent on her twin brother also should recognize that she knew she was getting a husband who makes grand unilateral gestures for his loved ones.  The problem is that the writers have shown him recently working hard for his family and her being resentful.  He’s been traveling back and forth, and it’s not enough for her.  (He arranged a birthday surprise, and she was upset their phone call was quick and then we find out it was because he was trying to get through everything at work to get back home to her.  He totally accepted responsibility for screwing up Jack’s sleep schedule but made sure she got to the concert on time and she was still annoyed.)

Personally, I think one of their main issues is that she would feel comfortable with Kevin sharing his money so Toby’s concern about making enough to support their family falls on deaf ears.  That isn’t a knock on Kate; Kevin has repeatedly said he wants to be able to share it and she lived quite a bit of her life working for Kevin so maybe they both think she is partially responsible for his success.  Toby thinks his job is vital to the family, and she thinks not only is it not vital but is an excuse to pull away from the family.  They desperately need counseling.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm also not seeing where Kate so much as raised her voice. She walked over to Toby, who was standing by himself, near the foyer, close to the staircase leading upstairs, and also leading to the front door and said, not shouted, "We're leaving." They step closer to the doorway, out of sight of most of the guests. She then walked away.

I only quoted this part because the rest has been debated enough that nobody is changing their minds. But my recollection of this scene is that Kate practically hissed at him ('said' seems rather benign) and they left the party abruptly without her so much as acknowledging their host(s). At the least Toby would have had some excuses to make come Monday morning.

[Gemma Violet]

10 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm also not seeing where Kate so much as raised her voice. She walked over to Toby, who was standing by himself, near the foyer, close to the staircase leading upstairs, and also leading to the front door and said, not shouted, "We're leaving."

And why does she think she can decide when they leave.  It should be a mutual decision.  Toby was having a good time and would have stayed longer.  But that doesn't matter.  Kate wanted to leave, so they had to leave.  She could have simply said, "Toby, there's something I want to discuss with you later this evening," and let him enjoy the rest of the party.

[CountryGirl]

It comes across that she didn't have a right to be angry and I cannot get onboard with denying her her feelings. Hissing still isn't yelling or making a scene. 

She's an adult and if she wants to leave, that's her right. If Toby had wanted to and chosen to stay, he could have done so. He didn't have to follow her out the door. Just as if Toby had gotten upset about something and it was her work function and he wanted to leave, that would be his right. Last time I checked, they are both grown people and can do as they please. If he had indicated that he wanted to stay a little longer (although they couldn't stay that long in the first place as they had a dinner reservation) and she actually made a scene vs waiting for him at the restaurant or going home, then I'd have an issue with how Kate behaved. But once again, that isn't what was shown.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

And why does she think she can decide when they leave.  It should be a mutual decision.  Toby was having a good time and would have stayed longer.  But that doesn't matter.  Kate wanted to leave, so they had to leave.  She could have simply said, "Toby, there's something I want to discuss with you later this evening," and let him enjoy the rest of the party.

So Kate should just suck in her feelings and put on a happy face immediately after finding out her husband lied to her because Toby is having fun?  She did put on that happy face with his boss when she pretended she knew about the job in LA.  He's lucky she was that calm.

[Boo Boo]

13 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

So Kate should just suck in her feelings and put on a happy face immediately after finding out her husband lied to her because Toby is having fun?  She did put on that happy face with his boss when she pretended she knew about the job in LA.  He's lucky she was that calm.

That's also the big rub.  He's basically living a single man's life while she's holding down the fort between his visits.   That's a resentment creator right there.  

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

That's also the big rub.  He's basically living a single man's life while she's holding down the fort between his visits.   That's a resentment creator right there.  

And then when Toby is home, he feels guilty about not being there so he overcompensates and also gets defensive at the drop of a hat.  Toby does realize he is doing this, he admits it in the Thanksgiving episode, but admitting it is not the same as changing his behavior.  

[OlderThanDirt]

I don't really want to take sides but as the characters are written, Toby gained weight after his divorce and has a history of depression and heart disease. He got his meds straightened out and took control of his weight.  Kate has had a weight problem all her life and although she has two incredible overachieving brothers, she has never lived geographically separated from at least one family member. She has admitted several times in her life that she doesn't see a plan for her life. The Katoby years are the exception to their lives, not the rule.  Again, this is the way it seems to me as a viewer looking at what the show has told us.

In reality, if Toby is a hotshot Project Manager, he has a spreadsheet evaluating all the job offers. I imagine the SF job is exciting and he's working for someone who has already sold on company and is offering stock options, while the LA job is probably with an established firm in middle management which implies cubicle farm to me.  But the writing has only hinted that so far.  Next week might spell it out more.

[GeorgiaRai]

I went and re-watched that part of the episode, trying to see it from a more Kate-compassionate point of view.  I couldn't.  The more I watch it, the more I dislike her. 

I'd like to re-wind to before the wedding flash forward, please, when the only one I couldn't stand was PMJ.

And with that, I will lay down my stick and stop beating this poor, dead horse. (Which is an old expression - not an indication that I approve of animal cruelty or death - in real life or on tv.)

[CountryGirl]

FWIW, I’m mostly Team No One But The Kids. With a side of Team Rebecca & Miguel. 

[Ohiopirate02]

13 minutes ago, OlderThanDirt said:

In reality, if Toby is a hotshot Project Manager, he has a spreadsheet evaluating all the job offers. I imagine the SF job is exciting and he's working for someone who has already sold on company and is offering stock options, while the LA job is probably with an established firm in middle management which implies cubicle farm to me.  But the writing has only hinted that so far.  Next week might spell it out more.

The writing has not been particularly clear, but I believe the job in SF is completely different than what Toby was doing, and the LA job would be more in line with his previous work experience.  And Toby is really liking the new job and the new responsibilities that come with it.  He is hesitant to take the LA job because of this.  He doesn't want to go back to a job where he is just a cog in the machine albeit a handsomely paid cog.  He is finding joy in his work where he did not previously.  Which is great if you are someone who derives your joy, fulfillment and self-worth through your career.  I am not knocking people who need to find joy in their work.  Hell, I am one of those people.  But, I am not married with kids.  It does suck for Toby to be finding this out about himself now instead of 10 or 15 years ago.  I do see both Toby and Kate's frustrations with their situation.  When they got married, Toby treated his job as a paycheck and found fulfillment outside of work.  Now his work is fulfilling him.  The real question is where does Kate and by extension the kids fit into this?  

[Jeddah]

13 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

FWIW, I’m mostly Team No One But The Kids. With a side of Team Rebecca & Miguel. 

And not even all the kids for me! Sorry Tess and Deja!

[PepSinger]

A moment that I thought was well done in this episode was when Rebecca went to hug Kevin and whispered in his ear that she couldn’t remember the information to fill out the forms. It wasn’t dramatic or overwrought. Kevin nodded and took the forms. I appreciated the subtlety.

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

A moment that I thought was well done in this episode was when Rebecca went to hug Kevin and whispered in his ear that she couldn’t remember the information to fill out the forms. It wasn’t dramatic or overwrought. Kevin nodded and took the forms. I appreciated the subtlety.

It was so well-done and such an understated moment in the midst of so much melodrama.

[PepSinger]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

It was so well-done and such an understated moment in the midst of so much melodrama.

Exactly. 

[BC4ME]

4 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

UO:  I don't think Chrissy is anything special as a singer, don't know why the show would want to showcase that aspect of her talent.  It's really been clear the couple of times she's performed with Mandy Moore; she just isn't that talented. 

I'm certainly no judge of singing talent but didn't Chrissy Metz sing one of the nominated songs at the Oscars two or three years ago? They must've thought she was talented enough for that honor.

Edited April 8, 2022 by BC4ME

[kili]

Quote

I call BS on the whole leak thing. A leak on the ceiling from a pipe would come from a second-floor bathroom, washer or dryer, or other appliance that requires a water pipe. Kates house does not have a second floor so there is no reason to have pipes in the ceiling. In addition, a pipe leak in the ceiling would produce a slow stain unless it was completely broken. The ceiling leak in Kates house would have come from the roof or loose siding or clogged  gutters. Turning off the water to the house would not have helped at all.

A lot of houses in Southern California are built on slabs and don't have basements. Back then, the pipes were run through the walls and ceilings so you don't have to break-up concrete if there is an issue.

Kate and Toby's house is a bungalow and I'm pretty sure it does not have a basement. Older houses like this tend to have coper pipes and water pipes are under pressure. Those pipes can develop pinhole leaks over time which can release a lot of water all at once. 

I would be stunned if the leak was from the roof because they get very little rain in LA and it wasn't raining that day (that ever present puddle at the park must be from some other leaking pipe). Plus, the last time Toby fixed it, he was futzing with the pipes and not cleaning out the gutters.

Quote

I cannot imagine a scenario in the world where I, as Kate's sibling, would have shrugged and walked on by, at that particular moment.

It wasn't until he moved closer and kept putting his finger in her face (so again, they did not immediately step in) that Kevin and Randall spoke up. 

Kate has been the victim of domestic abuse in the past and they brothers didn't know about it until they arrived at the cabin. Kate didn't tell them, so they may be more overly reactive to an angry confrontation against their sister than the usual person. 

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

As for friends, Kate doesn't seem to have many friends in LA, either. 

People on TV shows rarely seem to have friends. Is Madison the only friend for anyone on this show?

 

2 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

I don't blame him for not mentioning it to Kate.  When she heard the salary, she would have insisted that Toby switch jobs.  His love of his present job & co-workers would mean nothing to her.  And if he took the job and came back to L.A. and was miserable each and every day, she would be happy because she'd have her old miserable depressed Toby back.  And that's basically her problem--Toby got his life together, lost weight, got over his depression, became a happy successful man, and she is envious of that.

I'm not generally a Kate fan, but I think this is unfair. She doesn't want Toby to be miserable. I think she IS resentful of him having improved his life, as she feels stuck in a rut, but if they were to have an honest, kind conversation -- and I really really hope they do before the end of the show -- I think she'd admit to her resentment while adding that she bears Toby no ill will.

 

1 hour ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I went and re-watched that part of the episode, trying to see it from a more Kate-compassionate point of view.  I couldn't.  The more I watch it, the more I dislike her. 

I rewatched that also. I certainly understand Kate feeling blindsided and angry at Toby for not telling her and making a decision on his own that deeply affects her and their family. But I don't like how she reacted. She states to Toby, "We need to leave." He assumes it's because they need to get to the restaurant. He says, "Let's just find Amir, and we can say goodbye." "We're not going to dinner. We need to leave." Outside he asks if they can talk about it before getting in the car. She says, "No, I need a minute." She had already taken a minute earlier. When she found out about the job offer, she went outside and sat on the steps (and was joined by Toby 1.0). This is when she should have been getting her thoughts together, so her thoughts were, "We're leaving without saying goodbye to anyone"? Like others here, I think she could have said good night and thank you to the host.

 

40 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

A moment that I thought was well done in this episode was when Rebecca went to hug Kevin and whispered in his ear that she couldn’t remember the information to fill out the forms. It wasn’t dramatic or overwrought. Kevin nodded and took the forms. I appreciated the subtlety.

I liked that, too. Another moment I liked was when Kate hugged Randall and was crying. Made me cry.

[peeayebee]

4 minutes ago, kili said:

A lot of houses in Southern California are built on slabs and don't have basements. Back then, the pipes were run through the walls and ceilings so you don't have to break-up concrete if there is an issue.

Kate and Toby's house is a bungalow and I'm pretty sure it does not have a basement. Older houses like this tend to have coper pipes and water pipes are under pressure. Those pipes can develop pinhole leaks over time which can release a lot of water all at once. 

I imagine that house, like other old houses, was built on a raised floor, so plumbing would be in the crawlspace underneath the floors. However, I don't know enuf about plumbing and when pipes would be put in the ceiling. I guess on TV shows.

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

He's basically living a single man's life while she's holding down the fort between his visits.   That's a resentment creator right there.  

I guess I wish we were seeing more of that.  We’ve seen his exhaustion as he flies, his disappointment when he gets to his place in SF alone, and his colleagues say how he talks about her and the kids all the time, and he was so excited when she wanted to come to SF that he over planned to try to sell her on the city.  I see someone missing his family, not living the high life as a bachelor.