S06.E05: Give Me Liberty

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and Jamie experience the rising tensions in the colonies when they attend a Loyalist event in Wilmington in honor of the Scottish heroine Flora MacDonald.

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[cardigirl]

Did they drop a new episode? It's not showing up in my on demand. 😭

[nara]

I saw it on demand, so spoilers ahead…

 

As soon as I saw BPC, I was expecting a “mark me” and I was not disappointed! 🤣

Enjoyable episode. I really enjoyed seeing how friends and family aligned themselves with opposing sides of the upcoming revolution, including people whom you might assume would be automatically anti-British because of their Scottish roots. I also enjoyed seeing the negatives of the sons of liberty. As an American, I only learned a one-sided story in school.

With the printer being attacked, I am very worried for Fergus. He has suffered enough, and I hope they don’t torture him further!

Malva shows her true colors. That entire family is bad news but her manipulative behavior at such a young age is disturbing. I wish Roger had told Bree everything. Malva does not need to be Claire’s apprentice, especially with Marsali leaving the Ridge.

ETA…This new time traveler is intriguing! I knew as soon as an emerald went missing that it was a traveler. Frankly, I am surprised that Claire and Jamie didn’t consider that. I assume that Claire’s drug habit is causing her to question her senses.

Edited April 3, 2022 by nara

[cardigirl]

Good news! I was able to view it in demand. Just had to search for it. Not sure why it wasn't showing in the list of episodes. 
 

I enjoyed this one. I love how Bonnie prince charles is portrayed in this series, and the scenes in Scotland. The opening song was GORGEOUS for this episode! Of course Jamie gets to deliver speeches on liberty, found that to be a bit hokey, as were some of the scenes at River Run. 
 

I really like when the show touches on the time travel aspect of the stories. So looking forward to finding out more about the prisoner whistling the theme from Bridge on the River Kwai. 
 

Ooh that Malva! 😳

[Hanahope]

Seriously, Roger knows Bree can keep a secret, he should tell her about Malva, and also tell Claire.  Malva is not to be trusted.  especially with Bree expecting a new baby (yay!).  and seriously Malva, of all places for your tryst, in the place your dad goes to often?

I wonder if Roger could consider the possibility that the tune he whistled, and maybe even some of the lyrics, do have roots in Scotland's history.  its not that unusual for "new" songs to have much older roots.

who is the new time traveler?  and if he's got a stone, one would think he won't be around long.  unless the story is he's a major british fan and wants to go back and forth with weapons?  can that work?

I was surprised that Jamie told John his true loyalties.  i thought he'd at least keep them vague a bit longer.  I know he trusts John, maybe he figures if John can keep his own secret, he'll keep Jamie's as well.  i also wondered if that scene with the printer is a precursor to something with Fergus and that is worrisome, as he probably won't have a Jamie-type person there to help him.

I hadn't thought about the fact that maybe more people in the southern states were loyal to the british early on and that was one factor why there was always a bit of north v. south in the country.  

 

 

[nara]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

  and seriously Malva, of all places for your tryst, in the place your dad goes to often?

I thought that was a deliberate F-you to her dad and god too perhaps.

[ali59]

Lord John!!! ❤️

Malva is pure evil.  I guess she inherited it from her mother.

I got a kick out of the MacDonald banter.  I'm a McDonald too!

My mother was a Daughter of the American Revolution so I know who at least one of my Revolutionary War ancestors was.  Watching this season of Outlander has caused me to think about them and how they survived separating from the Crown.  I've gained a whole new respect for them.

[DoctorAtomic]

6 hours ago, nara said:

As soon as I saw BPC, I was expecting a “mark me” and I was not disappointed!

I said it out loud! Didn't have to wait long either. They did a different opening to the show too. I liked how they worked 'over the sea to Skye' into the dialogue. 

I quite liked the convo with Jamie and Claire about why the Scots would be loyalists. It's easy for Claire because she knows what happens, but it's still going to be hard. I'm sure Jamie wasn't thinking it at the time, but being a mason now sure helps. 

I would have thought inventing the water wheel would have been a higher priority that they're only talking about it now. 

They're moving Fergus to New Bern now? He barely has been in the show as it is. 

I'm always worried when I see Lord John. He's the only character I genuinely always liked. No one do anything to him! I actually want Claire and Jamie to let him in on what's going on. I don't know if I can bear if him and Jamie are on opposite sides. 

Did Claire get Flora and Jocasta high?

Seeing Jamie hemmed in at the printers still makes me think Claire and him fake their deaths in the fire to escape. And then Jamie becomes one of Washington's spies! That would be exciting for a change. 

7 hours ago, nara said:

Malva shows her true colors.

I really liked the actor there. It was the first time she really stood up straight and looked anyone in the eye. She's always kind of stooped and meek. Also she wasn't doing anything wrong. 1970s Roger got a little too stuffy there. Although I did not like her chopping off a finger.

I liked how Jamie basically invented the first amendment at the meeting. 

It was also important to show Lord John asking Jamie why. He doesn't really have much of a why beyond that Claire told him this is what is going to happen. It's not like he's complaining about taxes or anything. 

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm always worried when I see Lord John. He's the only character I genuinely always liked. No one do anything to him!

What's wonderful about seeing David Berry again is that a couple years ago, it was released that he was leaving the show and wouldn't be playing Lord John; and I didn't see anything in the casting/media thread he was returning, so it was a wonderful surprise to see him! I'm waiting for the behind the episode to find out the producers planned this all along as a surprise to viewers/fans. Hee!

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, maybe she starts the fire then. I was going to say, Mr. Christie needs to take the belt from her, but then I was thinking she might just snap and go full out and burn everything down. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, nara said:

ETA…This new time traveler is intriguing! I knew as soon as an emerald went missing that it was a traveler. Frankly, I am surprised that Claire and Jamie didn’t consider that. I assume that Claire’s drug habit is causing her to question her senses.

 

9 hours ago, Hanahope said:

who is the new time traveler?  and if he's got a stone, one would think he won't be around long.  unless the story is he's a major british fan and wants to go back and forth with weapons?  can that work?

 

12 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed this one. I love how Bonnie prince charles is portrayed in this series, and the scenes in Scotland. The opening song was GORGEOUS for this episode! Of course Jamie gets to deliver speeches on liberty, found that to be a bit hokey, as were some of the scenes at River Run.

I really like when the show touches on the time travel aspect of the stories. So looking forward to finding out more about the prisoner whistling the theme from Bridge on the River Kwai.

Might not be new. The only time traveler from the future we know of who's unaccounted for is Wendigo Donner, and he has long dark hair. And he said something to Claire about needing a gem to go home.

They weren't at River Run, they were at some house just outside Wilmington. River Run looks different and isn't that close to Wilmington. And Jamie wouldn't be surprised that Aunt Jocasta had paid for Flora MacDonald's event if she had hosted it.

I haven't heard of Bridge on the River Kwai before, but I recognize the tune of the Colonel Bogey March.

[Glade]

It was amazing seeing BPC in the opening and watching him take his famous journey over the sea to Skye...that was a fascinating backstory with Lady Mcdonald.  I'm sorry though that Lord John couldn't come out to the Ridge for a proper visit, was just tasked with arguing with Jamie.  Of course the right thing to do is dissolve the colonies and sail back to Europe rather committing genocide via manifest destiny.

So Fergus/Marsali are being written off again? Why can't they just stay at the Ridge and be given storylines?  I was under the impression that Roger/Brianna already had more than one child; I guess it's just hard to keep track when Fergus/Marsali are marathoning it.  I'm guessing that creep in the cell was Macdougal with a wig who hung Roger some seasons ago, and it looks like he's preparing to get stoned himself, just not with hemp flower...

That the first thing Mulva resorts to with Roger is blackmail, before even just asking nicely (I'm sure Roger wasn't going to tell them) show's she's complete trash, even before the borderline necrophiliac end-scene.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 minutes ago, Glade said:

I was under the impression that Roger/Brianna already had more than one child; I guess it's just hard to keep track when Fergus/Marsali are marathoning it.  I'm guessing that creep in the cell was Macdougal with a wig who hung Roger some seasons ago, and it looks like he's preparing to get stoned himself, just not with hemp flower...

So far Bree and Roger have just Jemmy and the new one on the way. Fergus and Marsali have Germain, Joanie, Félicité and Henri-Christian.

You think William Bucchleigh MacKenzie has been to the future? He'd have to have been, to know the Colonel Bogey March.

[Glade]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

You think William Bucchleigh MacKenzie has been to the future? He'd have to have been, to know the Colonel Bogey March.

Maybe?  I just saw the wig and thought of him (and I was also confusing Amy Mccolum with Morag Mackenzie throughout this episode, so that's another reason why I had him in mind.)

Edited April 4, 2022 by Glade

[NJRadioGuy]

13 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I wonder if Roger could consider the possibility that the tune he whistled, and maybe even some of the lyrics, do have roots in Scotland's history.  its not that unusual for "new" songs to have much older roots.

I can most certainly think of one specific piece that has its roots in an old English drinking song that was somewhat...repurposed, shall we say.

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I haven't heard of Bridge on the River Kwai before, but I recognize the tune of the Colonel Bogey March.

It's a great movie.  In it the POWs whistle the CB march so it fits that someone in a jail cell familiar with the movie would be reminded of the song.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, Glade said:

Maybe?  I just saw the wig and thought of him (and I was also confusing Amy Mccolum with Morag Mackenzie throughout this episode, so that's another reason why I had him in mind.)

Certainly possible, since he's Geillis's son and Roger presumably inherited the time travel gene from him. But like I said above, I think Wendigo Donner is more likely.

[taanja]

So Malva is a lull blown psychopath huh? Like did she kill that old dude in the hut? She is cutting off his fingers for charms and sacrifices? Bizzaro! 

I liked the genteel party with the beautiful dresses.

Roger is an idiot.

[DoctorAtomic]

The traveler has to be someone from the 1960s-70s. There's no dramatic narrative if it's someone who can only go back to the 1500s. Is the guy who asked Claire about Ringo Starr who this Donner is? That's the only other traveler they showed recently. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is the guy who asked Claire about Ringo Starr who this Donner is?

Yes.

[BitterApple]

I think the time traveler is Wendigo as well. The long, dark curly hair matches and running into him again would fit with this season's theme of PTSD. 

Roger is on my nerves. He absolutely should've told Bree about Malva's threat. That creepy little mouse shouldn't be anywhere near Claire or her surgery. What's worse is she now has access to ether and poisonous plants. She probably killed the guy whose bones she's using for her love spells. 

I loved seeing BPC again. The throwback scenes were nice and that opener was beautiful. I too was tickled that we got a "mark me." 

Did Claire give Jocasta and Flora weed? 😂

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, taanja said:

So Malva is a lull blown psychopath huh? Like did she kill that old dude in the hut? She is cutting off his fingers for charms and sacrifices? Bizzaro!

 

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

She probably killed the guy whose bones she's using for her love spells.

He was so old, more likely he expired on his own from natural causes (or possibly malaria) and she discovered him and didn't tell anyone so that she could use his parts.

Question is, if Malva made the love charm, whom was it for? Ian, Jamie, the Henderson guy she was with in the church? Whomever happened to be snared?

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

and running into him again would fit with this season's theme of PTSD.

Good point.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[tennisgurl]

Looks like Malva really is high on the creepy scale, the actress is doing a great job. She can look cute or creepy just depending on how she leans her head or stands up. Is she leaning into the witch stuff to spite her father, even if its in secret, or does she really think that she's a witch after her dad drilled in a fear of witches into her head, and after what happened to her mom? Either way, hopefully Ian stays far away from her. In fact, everyone probably should, and Claire shouldn't show her anymore cures, that can only end badly. 

Jamie is, of course, going ahead to write half the constitution on his own, or at least he did a solid job of schooling the Sons of Liberty on what liberty actually means. Its really interesting seeing how complicated things were in the colonies were at the time and what a long shot a rebellion would have been seen to be. It can be easy, especially being an American, to just think of the revolution as an easy and totally correct choice that the founding fathers made in the name of freedom that was always going to work, but in reality the situation was a lot more complicated. I can totally see why people like the Scots would be wary of war and of starting another fight for independence against the crown and why people were trying to settle things, for a lot of people it wasn't about oppression so much as it was about peace. A lot of people were probably really torn between sides, like we see with Jamie and Lord John, and the idea of these guys beating the British really did seem impossible. One of my direct ancestors was an Englishman who moved to the colonies a few years before the revolution and sided with the colonists, fighting in a number of major battles in the colonial army, its a real point of pride for the family, and this is really making me think more about him. I wonder if he felt torn between his motherland and his new home, if he had friends on both sides, and how he decided to fight for his new country. It had to have been a hard choice. 

I love seeing Lord John but I hate that he and Jamie are going to be on different sides of this. It was would nice if Jamie could convince him to join their side, or even let him know the big secret and that Jamie has spoilers on how this goes down (pick the winning side!), but I don't see John turning his back on the crown. 

Jamie had some great expressions this week, his embarrassed reaction when Claire teased him about his old crush, his expression when he saw Steven Bonney's balls on display in the bar that went from freaked out to slightly amused, then him trying to John what he was saying about the meeting without actually saying it. 

Looks like Roger singing a song from the future was foreshadowing another new time traveler! He very much could be Wendigo, but I think with him being in the shadows, he's going to be a new time traveler. I do love how they do the time travel reveals, they're always such great "wait, what?" moments. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by tennisgurl

[kwnyc]

56 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Jamie is, of course, going ahead to write half the constitution on his own, or at least he did a solid job of schooling the Sons of Liberty on what liberty actually means.

Hmm...have we ever seen him and Thomas Jefferson in the same place? ;-) Both tall redheads...

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Jamie is, of course, going ahead to write half the constitution on his own, or at least he did a solid job of schooling the Sons of Liberty on what liberty actually means. Its really interesting seeing how complicated things were in the colonies were at the time and what a long shot a rebellion would have been seen to be. It can be easy, especially being an American, to just think of the revolution as an easy and totally correct choice that the founding fathers made in the name of freedom that was always going to work, but in reality the situation was a lot more complicated. I can totally see why people like the Scots would wary of war of starting another fight for independence against the crown and why people were trying to settle things, for a lot of people it wasn't about oppression so much as it was about peace. A lot of people were probably really torn between sides, like we see with Jamie and Lord John, and the idea of these guys beating the British really did seem impossible. One of my direct ancestors was an Englishman who moved to the colonies a few years before the revolution and sided with the colonists, fighting in a number of major battles in the colonial army, its a real point of pride for the family, and this is really making me think more about him. I wonder if he felt torn between his motherland and his new home, if he had friends on both sides, and how he decided to fight for his new country. It had to have been a hard choice. 

Love this whole paragraph. What a crazy situation!  And it had to seem like complete lunacy!  But we freaking did it!  The Revolution gets me all fired up.  Congrats on having such a kick-ass ancestor!

[Beeyago]

My dad always used to say that if he had lived back in the Revolutionary War time he would have been loyalists. You would have been crazy to go up against the Crown. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it may depend where you live though. The drunken Scot that did the duel last episode wanted to buy land in way way west Tennessee. That's out there, and strikes me as wanting to just be left alone and not really having a stake in the fight. 

You're living in Boston, or even Wilmington as we're seeing here, there's a lot more going on. 

 

 

[kwnyc]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Looks like Malva really is high on the creepy scale, the actress is doing a great job.

Yes. Malva is creepy enough for any century, so I do like how the actor is playing her.

We watched the first episode of "Benjamin Franklin" (the new Ken Burns film on PBS) before we watched this episode, and it was most instructive in both the history of the times and the relations between the colonies and England. Franklin considered himself a "Briton" for a long time, and went to England to plead for Pennsylvania to be a crown colony (because the Penn family, which owned it, refused to pay taxes to cover King George's War and the French & Indian War).

Franklin remained a proponent of the crown, even leaking letters from Massachusetts's governor (an anti-royalist) to the newspapers to try to defuse the growing movement (it didn't work, and he was called a traitor by both sides). He was able to persuade the Crown to revoke the Stamp Act, but was dismissed from his post as Deputy Postmaster (a Crown-appointed role) and moved toward the "independence" side. Franklin's son, who married a wealthy British woman, remained a loyalist.

So there were lots of inter-family conflicts, and definitions of what a "patriot" truly was. Franklin correctly identified North America as a huge asset to the Crown, loaded with natural resources, and urged the King & his cabinet to treat the colonies better.

NB: Franklin ALSO wanted to acquire land in the West and sell it to settlers.

Edited April 5, 2022 by kwnyc
Additional fact

[gingerella]

First of all, hey @SassAndSnacks, I LOVED that opening song sung a capela in Gaelic, ye ken? It was absolutely beautiful and soooo much better than the schlocky opening credit version they've used thus far. Just keep this and I'm good Show.

Where to begin? Jamie and Claire always surprise me at how they clean up for these fancy pants do's they get invited to. I had just been thinking about Jamie's telling Tryon he's finished with doing his bidding, after Murtagh's death, and he'd paid his debt, throwing down the red coat on the ground. There was never any repercussion to that so it was about time that Show circled round to that seminal moment. I was surprised but happily so, to see Lord John again, but it felt odd that Jamie would not reveal anything about the future to John. I just wonder if John could handle that information in the same way that Roger did. That Jamie did. That Murtagh did. It's a lot, I mean if someone told me that I'd be like, 'ummm okaaay' and secretly dialing 911 for medics.

The whole Brotherhood of Whatever.... very priggish lot, and once again we see Jamie Fraser's ability to transcend current social norms and present a more modern perspective of what freedom might and should look like. I always appreciated early on in Show when they showed us how open-minded Jamie was to new/modern thinking. Right from the get go with Claire, admiring her healing knowledge, to accepting a woman/Claire as his equal partner, to him hearing her time travel story in the woods after he rescued her from the witch trial. We haven't had a lot of that in recent seasons so I appreciated that aspect of the dialogue. Jamie is at his best, IMO, when he has digested future information and/or ways of thinking, and is sharing them on with the people of his time. Not an easy thing to do, but it is what makes him a leader I think.

So Bree is preggers again, it was a little heartbreaking to see the unbridled joy on Roger's face at that news because Jemmy's reveal was so fraught with despair and confusion. I really hope that this next kid looks just like Jemmy and we can all put the parentage of him to rest once and for all. Also re: Roger, how can he not have seen what was going on with the growing attachment of that widow to him? It was so stupid! Glad he saw the error of his ways, but not before it can still be used against him by creepy Mulva (tm Seinfeld).

Speaking of Mulva, do you all who thought she was a poor misunderstood young girl still think that now? Creeping into the tent of a corpse to cut fingers off to make a love spell?!? That was so disgusting, but also, it made her supersede Leery in craziness. I wonder if she's laid with other men before or not since she seemed quite unfazed with that guy in the meeting house. I suppose not if she hasn't managed to get pregnant accidentally. I do hope she doesna get knocked up and blame it on, say, Ian.  He was hanging out a bit too closely with her last epi.

What on earth is Lizzie planning to do with two twin boys both smitten with her, and why does she seem to live alone in her own cabin? That seems odd doesn't it? I young woman her age I should think would live in the main house somewhere, not alone where she could be taken advantage of.

I enjoyed seeing Claire get Aunt Jocasta high on hemp, that was pretty funny! But what was not funny was Jocasta's scheming to get Fergus involved with such incendiary activities vis a vis the printing shop in New Bern. And speaking of that, it was very sweet to see the relationship between Marsali and Bree, that was lovely. More of that please.

[SassAndSnacks]

22 minutes ago, gingerella said:

First of all, hey @SassAndSnacks, I LOVED that opening song sung a capela in Gaelic, ye ken? It was absolutely beautiful and soooo much better than the schlocky opening credit version they've used thus far. Just keep this and I'm good Show.

I said something similar in the Book Talk thread.  It was beautiful and the scenery was gorgeous!  

As always, I freaking LOVE your comments.  You're really good at this!  But that is all I will say.  :-)  

[domina89]

On 4/4/2022 at 1:34 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

He was so old, more likely he expired on his own from natural causes (or possibly malaria) and she discovered him and didn't tell anyone so that she could use his parts.

Was that not the sin-eater from a previous episode?  They showed him in the recap so I assumed it was him.  It would make her spell doubly powerful, would it not, if she believed he was indeed a sin-eater?

On 4/4/2022 at 4:48 PM, kwnyc said:

Hmm...have we ever seen him and Thomas Jefferson in the same place? ;-) Both tall redheads...

Interestingly, one of my co-workers is the 8th great-grandson of Thomas Jefferson.  No red hair, but very tall!  :)

[voiceover]

On 4/4/2022 at 12:51 PM, tennisgurl said:

be easy, especially being an American, to just think of the revolution as an easy and totally correct choice that the founding fathers made in the name of freedom that was always going to work,

Yeah I don’t get these comments about how dumb Americans think the Revolutionary War was all “Yankee Doodle Dandy”.   My first intense American History class was in the mid-70s, and our school textbook listed, among other things, the fates of the men who signed the Declaration (not great), and Franklin’s — among others’ — original opposition.  This series isn’t the first exhibition of the underbelly of that conflict (1776 was a hilarious and dramatic example); it *is a welcome view into the Scots’ conflicted participation in it.  

[gingerella]

15 hours ago, voiceover said:

Yeah I don’t get these comments about how dumb Americans think the Revolutionary War was all “Yankee Doodle Dandy”.   My first intense American History class was in the mid-70s, and our school textbook listed, among other things, the fates of the men who signed the Declaration (not great), and Franklin’s — among others’ — original opposition.  This series isn’t the first exhibition of the underbelly of that conflict (1776 was a hilarious and dramatic example); it *is a welcome view into the Scots’ conflicted participation in it.  

It sounds like you went to a very progressive high school then, or are you referring to college course? I grew up in the cradle of where much of the War took place, we had historic places littered all over the place and I'll tell you right now we did not hear a lot of how hard it was other than people having to hide their horses in their homes so the British wouldn't steal them. We definitely got a sanitized version of events up and down the East Coast during the War and prelude to it. So your experience doesn't ring true to me as being the norm, but good for you that you had such a stellar high school history class, we all should have had that.

[jacourt]

Talk about brain dead. I’m watching episode and I thought how could Jamie be at the constitutional convention he’s Scottish. Duh. None of them were ‘American’. 

[Camera One]

Well, mark me with bad flashbacks of Season 2.  I can't say I enjoyed those storylines back then, but it was sort of nice to see some old faces and be reminded of old plotlines in this one.

I also enjoyed seeing Jaime and Claire in a different setting for once.  The differing perspectives on the conflict did show some of the complexities of the situation.  It is easy to cheer on Jaime when he's the voice of reason and decency, with his speech to the Sons of Liberty.  Unfortunately, extremists and self-interest on both sides ruled the day.  

Back on the Ridge, we're getting the soap opera classics.  People lying to each other and keeping secrets.  Why oh why didn't Roger talk to Bree about that psycho Malva trying to blackmail him?  I actually thought Bree was being petty about Roger helping the widow and his kids.  Though I did like her being innovative and using her engineering knowledge.

I hope Marsali doesn't leave Fraser's Ridge.  She's one of the bright lights of the cast.   Of course Fergus is offscreen again.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Jamie is also benefiting from knowing future history with Claire, so he's motivated to motivate the winners.