S01.E06: Heads Have Rolled for Less

[nb360]

On 2/28/2022 at 9:54 PM, dmc said:

Peggy to finally realize she's better off on her own show featuring her and Mr. Fortune putting out a newspaper called Outrageous Fortune

OMG, this is brilliant. I'd watch this show.

[nb360]

20 hours ago, Atlanta said:

It's sad that these couples can't truly have dated without hovering chaperones. I'm not suggesting anything untoward, but they can't get to know each other. 

Yes, this is what I love about Edith Wharton who was "Old New York."

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Emmybean said:

Agnes needs Marian to make a good marriage, but it’s not just to satisfy her snobbery. I suspect that Agnes has only a life-interest in the van Rhijn property, and at her death everything goes to Oscar, who won’t give a rap about Ada. But Marian does, and a good marriage by Marian means Ada will have a home fitting her status. 

An interesting idea. 

However, even if Marian married a man from the middle class, she could offer Ada a home, although not "fitting her status". We don't know if Ada really care about the status as much as Agnes does. What we do know is that she cares a lot about Marian's happiness and wants her to follow her own moral code, not that of Agnes.

I believe that Agnes simply believes that she knows best what is best for Marian: to marry for security and hope that also affection will grow (she said something like that to Ada). That opinion is based on her own experience although in her case she got only security.

People make different conclusions from the same experiences. Another woman could think that there is no way to guarantee security in the world as the fate of Mrs Morris recently showed.

It's interesting that also Bertha clings basically to the same values as Agnes. She said to Gladys that she wanted to give her "the world", that is, the status is most important in life.  

[Hiyo]

 

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Doesn't skycrapers look all the same? Do even Americans know architects who planned them?

No, the ones that are distinct stand out...and many do. And yes, there some Americans who are familiar with certain architects.

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An ambitious architect wants rather build extraordinary houses (f.ex. opera house) so that his name is remembered.

And skyscrapers as well.

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Neither is HBO. HBO gets all of its money from people subscribing to HBO. HBO is not supported by advertisers the way network or cable (USA, FX, AMC) is. That's why I thought HBO was the first to give creators full control and not give them notes. 

Yeah I think HBO runners are given more leeway than people on network or cable channels.

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No amount of English butlers and fancy parties will save them if a scandal takes George's business down. 

Yes, it's what's in George's bank account that matters the most with regards with her trying to conquer society.

The more I watch of this show, I do wonder if they should have just done a show about the Astors vs. the Vanderbilts. Who knows, maybe Ryan Murphy could as part of his "Feud" series, though with his revisionist history, the season would end with Peggy leading a pride parade down 5th Ave. with Caroline Astor and Alva Vanderbilt trying to outdo each other by sponsoring the largest campiest rival floats while a throbbing disco soundtrack plays in the background.

Make it so, Ryan.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Hiyo

[Roseanna]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:31 AM, yellowjacket said:

when Dame Audra was playing the piano 

It was a nice touch in many ways. It didn't only shown that the Black upper middle class had made all the "fine" and "educated" habits their own like Bertha adopted English dining style to please Mr McAllister and ultimately Mrs Astor, but Peggy's mother really liked both music and to play herself, otherwise she wouldn't have played alone, only to please herself. 

Instead, Marian has no artistic hobbies, as was expected from a fine lady. Gladys at least has drawing lessons.

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

It's been mentioned several times that Agnes's property will pass to Oscar and it was at least implied that she has no discretion as to how that property passes. Agnes has said that she cannot leave anything to Marian and it didn't sound as though it was a "can't" as in "morally obligated to leave it to Oscar" but rather "it's not in my power to do so." As @Emmybean said, it seems that Agnes has a life estate in her home and probably some regular widow's allowance for personal spending and the upkeep of the house and staff. A life estate, as the name implies, is an interest in property, generally the right to occupy/use, that last the duration of the remainder of your life. In such cases, the actual ownership of the property passes to someone or some entity else without the right to possess or use it until the end of the life estate. The person with the life estate doesn't own the property outright, and full ownership rights revert to the in ownership inheritor upon the death of the person with the life estate.

If that's the case, Agnes would have no more power to leave significant money or property to Ada than she does to Marian. 

You are probably right.

However, there is also another explanation: Agnes inherited her fortune from her husband, not from her own family. Therefore, she could feel that it would be morally wrong to leave (at least) large sums to her sister and/or niece - it would mean like "robbing" her son. 

Or maybe her fortune isn't so big that she can leave large sums to Ada and Marian.

We aren't told what Oscar's financial situation exactly is. Did her father leave all his fortune to his wife? If so, it would be indicate that he didn't trust his son who was probably of age ten years ago (when Ada moved to Agnes's house).  

On 3/2/2022 at 8:05 AM, Atlanta said:

It is a bit cringe about what is attractive of the time when it comes to both men and women (I know we tend to get absorbed into the feminist aspect, but women can be shallow too). In this era, it seems all about money rather than chemistry or connection. It's sad that these couples can't truly have dated without hovering chaperones. I'm not suggesting anything untoward, but they can't get to know each other. 

While servants had to work and upper class women like Marian and Gladys had to marry, it's noteworthy that it's Peggy who belongs to the new Black middle-class women who can make real choices: she has education and a job and therefore not dependent on her family. She can marry or not marry - if she marries, she should be chose a husband of right kind, so that she can continue her career, if nor as a journalist, then as an author.

[Hiyo]

Wonder how that compared to the lives of white middle class women at the time.

[Haleth]

11 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Why wouldn't she leave something to Ada?

Don't be silly, Agnes will outlive Ada.  At least that's what she said.

[MissLucas]

I wonder about the financial situation of the VRs. Apparently Agnes can't leave anything for Marian nor Ada - which means she acts as trustee (??? not good with legal or financial terms) of the assets and while she lives she can hand out allowances to A&A but she can't include them in her will. And as she brought no money into the marriage she can't even bequeath them anything from her dowry. But if that's the case shouldn't Oscar have inherited once he turned 21 (or whatever the age was)? Or did her husband leave some money for Agnes and that's what she handles right now while Oscar in charge of the family's assets? And if so why is he so desperate to marry a someone with money? Pure greed? 

[Shermie]

For those who think Nathan Lane is being too campy in his portrayal of Ward McAllister, he’s being true to character. Ward was showy and over the top, and cultivated an affected accent. Nathan Lane was born for the role.

Interesting tidbit - Nathan Lane and Christine Baranski played ex spouses in The Bird Cage, one of my faves.

It’s fascinating that times never change. Old Money vs New Money is just a hoity-toity real-life version of Mean Girls. Everyone falls all over themselves to curry favour with the Queen Bee, and even those closest to the inner circle tremble in fear of being ousted. Even the Queen Bee can get overthrown.

I wonder why there had to be only one inner circle of cool in the gilded age. I mean, the New Money people could have thrown amazing parties filled with celebrities (who could usually be bought in exchange for attendance), build their own opera houses and theatres, do successful business deals, and just enjoy each other’s company. Invite the Old Money or don’t, but make a place in society without them. They would have ended up in the society pages too. It seems so pointless to be overwrought about getting in with the Astors.

[KarenX]

5 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Wonder how that compared to the lives of white middle class women at the time.

I don’t know to what extent service was considered a profession or middle class but it didn’t leave you much time for a family if you lived in a house with staff.

We have seen white middle class women, though: Clara Barton and George’s employee. Both of them are occupied during the day in ways that seem modern and allow choices. 

[Pestilentia]

Quote

the financial situation of the VRs.

 

@MissLucas- if you scroll up just a few posts it is all explained here by @RachelKM.

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

We aren't told what Oscar's financial situation exactly is. Did her father leave all his fortune to his wife? If so, it would be indicate that he didn't trust his son who was probably of age ten years ago (when Ada moved to Agnes's house).  

If Oscar was so young when his father died, than it makes he wouldn't immediatly inherit all of the money. I wouldn't trust a ten year old or a young teenager to manage large sums of money. To me, that part of it makes sense. Maybe there's some kind of trust fund that gives Agnes an allowence (clearly generous to support her lifestyle)? 

[Atlanta]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

Interesting tidbit - Nathan Lane and Christine Baranski played ex spouses in The Bird Cage, one of my faves.

They were both in The Bird Cage, but Christine's character has a one night stand with Robin Williams' character and had a son.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

If Oscar was so young when his father died, than it makes he wouldn't immediatly inherit all of the money. I wouldn't trust a ten year old or a young teenager to manage large sums of money. To me, that part of it makes sense. Maybe there's some kind of trust fund that gives Agnes an allowence (clearly generous to support her lifestyle)? 

A rich man like Agnes' husband usually made his will in time and his lawyer made sure that it covered all possibilities.

If Oscar had been an underage when his father died, he would have got his inheritance when he became 21 years old (or if his father was a cautious man, 30 years old).

Oscar seems older than Raikes. Because his father died 10 years ago (after that Ada moved to Agnes' house), he was then at least 21 years.  

[rollacoaster]

15 hours ago, nb360 said:

On 2/28/2022 at 8:54 PM, dmc said:

Peggy to finally realize she's better off on her own show featuring her and Mr. Fortune putting out a newspaper called Outrageous Fortune

OMG, this is brilliant. I'd watch this show.

 

Now, if we can have Peggy occasionally go undercover to report on and ultimately solve crimes...

 

10 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes, it's what's in George's bank account that matters the most with regards with her trying to conquer society.

The more I watch of this show, I do wonder if they should have just done a show about the Astors vs. the Vanderbilts. Who knows, maybe Ryan Murphy could as part of his "Feud" series, though with his revisionist history, the season would end with Peggy leading a pride parade down 5th Ave. with Caroline Astor and Alva Vanderbilt trying to outdo each other by sponsoring the largest campiest rival floats while a throbbing disco soundtrack plays in the background.

Make it so, Ryan.

 

I'd happily watch both these shows! 

  

On 3/1/2022 at 12:34 PM, RachelKM said:

On 2/28/2022 at 10:04 PM, Shermie said:

On 2/28/2022 at 9:35 PM, SailorGirl said:

I may be at a table for one, but I'm really enjoying this show.

Table for two; I’m enjoying it too.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 10:47 PM, Bulldog said:

 

 

Make that a table for three.  Now, why doesn't that butler take off the white gloves and pour us some wine!

 

On 3/1/2022 at 12:26 PM, photo7521 said:

Four, and I prefer a nice Red.

Count me in! I am absolutely enjoying this show! I'll have a watermelon margarita por favor. 

[nara]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:05 PM, BabyBella94 said:

I also think that maybe Carrie Astor is talking about her future husband, in real life she had to literally starve herself so Mrs.Astor would allow her to marry him.

Interesting! I did not know this. I thought Raikes might have been working on her too and he would dump Marian for the bigger prize of Carrie Astor (before Ma Astor puts a stop to it).

My prediction— an overly lavish party for Gladys coincides with George being questioned or arrested for the train scandal. All of NY society is therefore at the house to see George get hauled off…End of season 1

[Roseanna]

After watching Fellowes' interview I have to agree that "sobbing doesn't help" - if Russells had come to the accident place "to cry in public", that wouldn't have helped the offers whereas their money helped as well as Georges' call for Miss Barton to organize all.  

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Now, if we can have Peggy occasionally go undercover to report on and ultimately solve crimes...

The idea isn't as crazy/laughable as you might think. This was the era when you had white women journalists going undercover to expose horrible conditions (think Nellie Bly). I'm not sure where Peggy would go undercover, but the idea does have some historical accuracy to it. 

[rollacoaster]

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

4 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Now, if we can have Peggy occasionally go undercover to report on and ultimately solve crimes...

The idea isn't as crazy/laughable as you might think. This was the era when you had white women journalists going undercover to expose horrible conditions (think Nellie Bly). I'm not sure where Peggy would go undercover, but the idea does have some historical accuracy to it. 

I don't think it laughable at all! Nellie Bly was exactly who I was thinking of as I typed. 

[RachelKM]

7 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

 

@MissLucas- if you scroll up just a few posts it is all explained here by @RachelKM.

Thank you for the credit. :) But I merely explained a possible interpretation of what's been said. I don't think it has been established affirmatively how the property is owned/possessed.  But my speculation would explain a circumstance under which Agnes would be well set during life and continue to live as she had while married and yet not have property or money of significance to leave to her relatives.  

[nara]

There seems to be a lot of angst about Aurora calling Agnes “aunt”. In the first episode, she is described as a niece of Agnes’s husband. And the ladies (including Ada and Marian) are also related through the Livingstons (Agnes and Ada’s mother’s family).

Edited March 4, 2022 by nara

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, nara said:

There seems to be a lot of angst about Aurora calling Agnes “aunt”. In the first episode, she is described as a niece of Agnes’s husband. And the ladies (including Ada and Marian) are also related through the Livingstons (Agnes and Ada’s mother’s family).

Yes, Aurora Fane is Agnes's niece by marriage. Agnes was married to Aurora's uncle. Marian, for obvious reasons, and Aurora Fane referring to Agnes as "aunt" is okay with me.

I don't know if I'm misremembering but I think I recall other characters (minor characters) also referring to Agnes as "aunt" and that seemed weird to me.

I wonder if Aurora's maiden name was Van Rhijn.

Edited March 4, 2022 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Yes, Aurora Fane is Agnes's niece by marriage. Agnes was married to Aurora's uncle. Marian, for obvious reasons, and Aurora Fane referring to Agnes as "aunt" is okay with me.

I don't know if I'm misremembering but I think I recall other characters (minor characters) also referring to Agnes as "aunt" and that seemed weird to me.

I have read a novel where a young man referred to his much older cousin as "uncle", meaning that they weren't on the equal level. This "uncle" was like a benevolent surrogate father to an adult son who later became engaged to his daughter. 

When I was a child, there lived an older single woman in many families in the neighborhood. Not only their own relatives but other people in the village referred to them f.ex. as "Aunt Emma". 

[Shermie]

21 hours ago, Atlanta said:

They were both in The Bird Cage, but Christine's character has a one night stand with Robin Williams' character and had a son.

My mistake. Although I guess Christine’s character was introduced as Robin Williams’ character’s wife, as a cover. I got it all mixed up. Still a favourite movie.

I also think Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon are woefully underused in this show.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

referred to them f.ex. as "Aunt Emma".

Sorry, what does f.ex. mean?

[AZChristian]

6 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Sorry, what does f.ex. mean?

For example.

[PRgal]

13 hours ago, nara said:

There seems to be a lot of angst about Aurora calling Agnes “aunt”. In the first episode, she is described as a niece of Agnes’s husband. And the ladies (including Ada and Marian) are also related through the Livingstons (Agnes and Ada’s mother’s family).

I don't understand why there'd be angst?  The female spouse of an uncle is Aunt So-and-so.  My husband's sister's son (i.e. his nephew) calls me Aunt.  Cousins a generation removed (and their spouses) are also referred to as Uncle or Aunt So-and-So by my son (this one is cultural.  "Bew" is the Cantonese (and I think, Mandarin?) word for cousin.  But if you're a generation removed, you're a bew yee (cousin-aunt and female first cousin of your mom, I believe), bew suk (cousin-uncle and male first cousin of your dad), etc....depending on the person's gender and age in relation to your parent).  My husband and I are not of the same ethno-cultural background so it was a learning curve for him to understand why my first cousin's kids call me auntie.

[Pestilentia]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

For example.

That's e.g.  

That "f.ex" being used like that has been driving me nuts forever, lol.  

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I also think Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon are woefully underused in this show.

I was wondering just this morning when we were going to see some Aunt Agnes stories. We've seen her in precious few social settings so far and they have to have something planned. What does she do all day except write letters? And to whom is she writing about what?  

As the biggest name on the show she is vastly underutilized, I sure agree with that!!

Edited March 4, 2022 by Pestilentia

[MissLucas]

I was never bothered by Aurora calling Agnes 'aunt' and I never wondered why. Clearly I've been watching too many Hawaiian based shows 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 4, 2022 by MissLucas

[MerBearHou]

On 3/3/2022 at 2:36 AM, Hiyo said:

No, the ones that are distinct stand out...and many do. And yes, there some Americans who are familiar with certain architects.

I am the daughter of an architect and definitely know the iconic architects.  I love interesting buildings and immediately noticed the McKim, Mead & White sign and wondered what was up before Larry walked out of the building.  

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I was never bothered by Aurora calling Agnes 'aunt' and I never wondered why. Clearly I've been watching too many Hawaiian based shows 🤷‍♀️

I am Auntie to even my Hawaiian friends' dogs. LOL  And I am Aunt to my close friend's children and also my first cousin's children. So, at least on the west coast and island cultures, Aunt/Auntie/Tia/Theía have relatively fluid meanings generally denoting a close friend/relative a generation above yours.

But yeah, in the 1900th among this culture forms of address were quite specific. It would very unusual to refer to someone who was not your actual aunt or possibly godmother as "aunt."

Edited March 4, 2022 by RachelKM

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

I am Auntie to even my Hawaiian friends' dogs. LOL  And I am Aunt to my close friend's children and also my first cousin's children. So, at least on the west coast and island cultures, Aunt/Auntie/Tia/Theía have relatively fluid meanings generally denoting a close firmed/relative a generation above yours.

But yeah, in the 1900th among this culture forms of address were quite specific. It would very unusual to refer to someone who was not your actual aunt or possibly godmother as "aunt."

So what does one call your uncle's wife?  Or your aunt's husband (if not uncle)?

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, PRgal said:

So what does one call your uncle's wife?  Or your aunt's husband (if not uncle)?

Also Aunt and Uncle.  I've notice that is more common for non-related females to be referred to as Aunt than non-related males being called Uncle, at least among my friends.  But close friends who are male are also sometimes Uncle. 

Those titles get a lot of use out here. 😊🤷‍♀️

Edited March 4, 2022 by RachelKM

[BabyBella94]

Bertha’s family seems to have emigrated due to the potato famine, It seems massively disrespectful to her Irish roots to want Gladys to marry into the British aristocracy and snag a title for herself but social climbers will stop at nothing will they.

[Shermie]

5 hours ago, AZChristian said:

5 hours ago, Shermie said:

Sorry, what does f.ex. mean?

For example

Really? I’ve never seen that before. Usually it’s e.g. or ex. 

I read f.ex. as f/x, as in special effects.

30 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Bertha’s family seems to have emigrated due to the potato famine, It seems massively disrespectful to her Irish roots to want Gladys to marry into the British aristocracy and snag a title for herself but social climbers will stop at nothing will they.

Well, yeah. Climbers gotta climb. Although maybe Bertha wants Gladys to avoid a hardscrabble life in the most guaranteed way?

[PRgal]

35 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Also Aunt and Uncle.  I've notice that is more common for non-related females to be referred to as Aunt than non-related males being called Uncle, at least among my friends.  But close friends who are male are also sometimes Uncle. 

Those titles get a lot of use out here. 😊🤷‍♀️

That's what I thought.  But I meant back then and in that culture.   As for me, I hate being called Auntie for non-relatives unless I'm a good friend.  My friend's younger brother once asked his kids to call me Auntie Cynthia.  I barely know the guy and we used to make fun of him when we were kids!  So NO.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

I meant back then and in that culture

I'm sorry, I misunderstood.  I don't want to get too into the weeds, but people generally used accurate and formal titles in public.   An honorific "Aunt" or "Uncle" title may be used in some limited cases such as godparents or another adult who took an active role in your upbringing.

First names were reserved for family members and friends (not mere acquaintances).  Even with friends, people gave leave to use first names and you might still revert to Mr. and Mrs. in public.   And between sexes, almost exclusively last names only in public unless family or engaged/married.  Men who were friendly sometimes dropped the title portion and just referred by last name, i.e. Russell and van Rhijn as opposed to Mr. Russell and Mr. van Rhijn.

Using a non-relative's first name or a woman referring to a man without his title, "Mr." "Sir" whatever, in public settings demonstrated a level of closeness. 

[PRgal]

19 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I'm sorry, I misunderstood.  I don't want to get too into the weeds, but people generally used accurate and formal titles in public.   An honorific "Aunt" or "Uncle" title may be used in some limited cases such as godparents or another adult who took an active role in your upbringing.

First names were reserved for family members and friends (not mere acquaintances).  Even with friends, people gave leave to use first names and you might still revert to Mr. and Mrs. in public.   And between sexes, almost exclusively last names only in public unless family or engaged/married.  Men who were friendly sometimes dropped the title portion and just referred by last name, i.e. Russell and van Rhijn as opposed to Mr. Russell and Mr. van Rhijn.

Using a non-relative's first name or a woman referring to a man without his title, "Mr." "Sir" whatever, in public settings demonstrated a level of closeness. 

So in those days, it would have been "Aunt Mary and Mr. Smith" or "Uncle John and Mrs. Smith" from what you're saying.  

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

So in those days, it would have been "Aunt Mary and Mr. Smith" or "Uncle John and Mrs. Smith" from what you're saying.  

No.  Relatives by marriage were considered relatives. You might even call your spouse's sibling "Bother"/"Sister" and cousin "Cousin" and refer to them as your own brother/sister/cousin in conversation.

Edited March 4, 2022 by RachelKM

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

No.  Relatives by marriage were considered relatives. You might even call your spouses sibling "Bother/Sister" and cousin "Cousin" and refer to them as your own brother/sister/cousin in conversation.

So it would, as it is today, be Aunt Mary and Uncle John, regardless of who was the spouse.  Maybe I'm just confused with the characters on the show - who is related to whom, etc....it's just that earlier, it was mentioned that someone called an aunt's husband, uncle and was confused as to why some people had issues with it.  The dictionary definition of uncle is either the brother of one's mother or father or the husband of the sister.  

[BabyBella94]

Next Week's episode synopsis:
As the city buzzes over Edison’s electricity demonstration, Bertha plans a picnic that involves Mr. Raikes but not Marian. Agnes entreats her niece to protect the family’s reputation. George prepares for a legal battle as he bristles over Larry’s career ambitions. Bannister plots his revenge. Turner gets an unwelcome surprise.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

21 hours ago, nara said:

There seems to be a lot of angst about Aurora calling Agnes “aunt”. In the first episode, she is described as a niece of Agnes’s husband. And the ladies (including Ada and Marian) are also related through the Livingstons (Agnes and Ada’s mother’s family).

Yes, I made a post clarifying both those relations on Page 3 and then people stopped asking about it.

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don't know if I'm misremembering but I think I recall other characters (minor characters) also referring to Agnes as "aunt" and that seemed weird to me.

They haven't.

8 hours ago, Shermie said:

My mistake. Although I guess Christine’s character was introduced as Robin Williams’ character’s wife, as a cover. I got it all mixed up. Still a favourite movie.

That was the original plan, Robert Williams's character asked her to come over to do that, but then Nathan Lane's character dressed in drag and pretended to be the mother. When Christine's character finally arrived it revealed the deceptions (the note on the door telling her not to come up was removed by some journalists).

7 hours ago, PRgal said:

I don't understand why there'd be angst? 

Because apparently a lot of users missed or forgot that Agnes was actually Aurora's aunt and thought she was randomly calling her Aunt Agnes.

59 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

George prepares for a legal battle as he bristles over Larry’s career ambitions.

Finally a conversation between these two.

[mojito]

 

On 3/3/2022 at 9:31 AM, Shermie said:

I wonder why there had to be only one inner circle of cool in the gilded age. I mean, the New Money people could have thrown amazing parties filled with celebrities (who could usually be bought in exchange for attendance), build their own opera houses and theatres, do successful business deals, and just enjoy each other’s company.

I'm guessing that celebrities were probably of a lesser class, so they'd gladly come to any party with lots of food and booze and moneyed people. I'm guessing that there were those who cared very little about social status. Hey, wouldn't that be an interesting neighbor? Someone who inherits the mansion next door who was more like Jed Clampett than Agnes? The possibilities....

Does anyone else have a problem remembering that Oscar is Agnes' son, not her brother? He looks so old to me. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I don't understand why there'd be angst? 

Same here, especially as Aurora isn't exactly the most important character on this show.

But just in case this horse hasn't been beaten to death enough and buried 12 feet under at this point, from the HBO site:

"Kelli O’Hara as Aurora Fane - Aurora Fane is Agnes van Rhijn’s niece by marriage and takes Marian under her wing when Marian makes her entrance into New York society. Aurora is naturally elegant, likeable, honest, loyal - but above all, Aurora is aware of the social game she must play to maintain her place amongst the upper class."

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

 the HBO site:

 

I would like hear what you all think about Marian Brook and Tom Raikes' character descriptions:

Quote

 Marian Brook - Our principal heroine. Lovely and strong. Born to an old Pennsylvania family, but her father has left her without a penny. In one way, Marian knows that her probable fate will be to marry as well as she can and survive, but she wants more than this. She is curtailed by the rules of her time, but there is a modern streak in her, too. She wants to do something with her life. She wants to be fulfilled. She moves from Doylestown to New York City after her father dies to live with her estranged aunts, Agnes van Rhijn and Ada Brook.

Quote

Tom Raikes - Tom is a sensible young lawyer from Doylestown, PA. He’s been a solitary and career-driven practical man but is smitten when he meets Marian, his late client’s orphaned daughter. He relocates to New York City in pursuit of a relationship with Marian. Tom understands that Marian’s aunts are very conservative and he’s careful not to overstep any boundaries along the way. He’ll put up a fight to get what he wants, but he’s an appealing, charming gentleman above all else.

Doesn't Fellowes know the rules of the age? Is Marian and Raikes his concept about a romance?

Doesn't he understand his own characters or are actors played them in a different way than he created them? Or hasn't he told his own views and plans to the HBO person who has written these descriptions?

Or are we watching some other show?

[RachelKM]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:43 AM, Roseanna said:

I would like hear what you all think about Marian Brook and Tom Raikes' character descriptions:

My general reaction to both descriptions was "Whaaaa?"

Marian "wants more?" I haven't been convinced she wants much of anything and none of it strongly. Her most convincing interest is her pursuit of substantial friendship with Peggy.  And while Peggy is great and friendship with her is totally a worthy goal, it's def not a goal one has for their "fate."

And Raikes is "careful not overstep any boundaries?" Is that what we call kissing a woman who hasn't even indicated any significant feeling and indicating that the whole while setting up the logistics for a group trip you volunteered to organize and then invited yourself to without notice you were hoping to sleep with her? Because even kiss crossed a boundary. Standing at the doorway of her room hinting broadly, however "aww shucks" your demeanor, that you want to sleep with a woman with whom you have no established sexual relationship is a bit presumptuous even now. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by RachelKM

[MollyB]

14 hours ago, mojito said:

Does anyone else have a problem remembering that Oscar is Agnes' son, not her brother? He looks so old to me. 

Yes, he does seem much older, compared to the other men of his age.  His perspective seems to be seasoned by more experiences than someone like Bertha's son or Raikes may have had.  Also, the financial circumstances regarding his inheritance (or allowance or trust or whatever he has) from his father's estate are unclear.  I get that he has a good job and evidently his own residence, but what exactly are the terms?  He seems almost patronizing to Agnes at times.  I wonder if there is some resentment there.

[Roseanna]

3 minutes ago, MollyB said:

Yes, he does seem much older, compared to the other men of his age.  His perspective seems to be seasoned by more experiences than someone like Bertha's son or Raikes may have had.  Also, the financial circumstances regarding his inheritance (or allowance or trust or whatever he has) from his father's estate are unclear.  I get that he has a good job and evidently his own residence, but what exactly are the terms?  He seems almost patronizing to Agnes at times.  I wonder if there is some resentment there.

It can be resentment, if his father has left his fortune to his wife and he must wait for his mother's death to become rich - or marry a heiress.

It can also be such a case, not uncommon at that time, that a mother has loved and spoilt his son because she couldn't love her husband. The result has been that Oscar knows that Agnes is unable to deny him anything and, instead of being thankfull for all she has given to her, he despises her for her weakness and doesn't care a bit about her wishes.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Marian's description is exactly what we've gotten on the screen (yes, Marian has said a few times she wishes she had a job), but Tom has certainly not been careful not to overstep any boundaries.

[RachelKM]

21 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Marian's description is exactly what we've gotten on the screen (yes, Marian has said a few times she wishes she had a job), but Tom has certainly not been careful not to overstep any boundaries.

I agree that some of Marian's lines have indicated she would like the option to work and have more control in her life. But she's so damn placid about it that it's hard to view her as being overly committed to the idea. She seems equally mildly interested in seeing if she might be sort of interested in the first guy who's expressed an interest.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Marian's description is exactly what we've gotten on the screen (yes, Marian has said a few times she wishes she had a job)

 

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that some of Marian's lines have indicated she would like the option to work and have more control in her life. But she's so damn placid about it that it's hard to view her as being overly committed to the idea. 

A person can say anything, but I believe her only when she tries to do something for her wish to be true.

Cf. Peggy who wrote a story and send it magazines, got one offer and refused it, got second offer and accepted it, said something to editor for which he asked her to write more. Perhaps still a bit too easy, but maybe she has learned to write for years.

As for Marian, we haven't even told whether she had studied anything useful.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Roseanna
added three letters