S01.E03: Face the Music

[Roseanna]

59 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 My heart when out to her as well, and I suspected from the start they didn't know she was black. But realistically she should have taken the money and run, and would have, I think, given the era and her circumstances. Her pride was a little too modern for that time, frankly.

I think it's just the opposite: it's nowadays when money is the most important thing. 

To Peggy, the story is a part of herself. Selling it in an disfigured form would mean debasing herself. If she is a real artist, she knows in her heart that her time will come - if not earlier, then after her death. 

Besides, this was just the age when (some) people who themselves (or their ancestors) had been down had ideals and stuck to them. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Roseanna
taking out two words

[peridot]

I really don't like the aggressiveness that men have towards women in this show, but I guess it's period-accurate.  The butler really couldn't read the signs from the maid.  She was basically forced into going on a date with him.  Same with the overly pushy lawyer.  He actually proposed meeting in a hotel?! 

Marian seems like a fool too, pushing her aunt to accept the attentions of her former friend and continuing to meet with the lawyer.  It seems she's just trying to be spiteful towards her aunt.  If I was Agnes, I would just let her make the mistake of marrying the guy in order to get her out of the house.

I wonder if Mrs. Russell knows about the ambitions of the would-be mistress.  It would be great if it turned out Mrs. Russell was just waiting for her to hang herself.

[Roseanna]

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I had trouble following the financial scheme of Mr. Russell's. So, the aldermen bought stock in his company on the margin, which means (to my understanding) they borrowed the money to buy that stock. Meaning they would only have to pay for it at the price it was when they bought it, even after it went up. So wouldn't they want the price to go up? Wasn't that the plan all along, that the stock would rise when they voted for the new station, and they would have stock worth much more than they paid for? How did it benefit them if the stock price fell instead, and why did it ruin them to have the stock price rise which is what they planned for when Russell and Morris hatched this plot?

I guess they had only only a few stocks so far. The scheme was that because the station was refused, the stock would first go down. They anticipated that Russell would think it wisest to sell (especially if he had huge loans) and then they would have a chance buy cheaply. After the decision was changed and station was accepted, the stock would go up and they would sell with profit - at least those who were short of money, But they had got a big loan that was worth more than their property and now when they didn't make profit they couldn't pay it. But those who had much money may have wanted to get the company from Russell by forcing him to sell cheaply.

[DiabLOL]

30 minutes ago, peridot said:

I really don't like the aggressiveness that men have towards women in this show, but I guess it's period-accurate.  The butler really couldn't read the signs from the maid.  She was basically forced into going on a date with him.  Same with the overly pushy lawyer.  He actually proposed meeting in a hotel?! 

Yes! I keep thinking about this. I really dread these two storylines getting the romantic true love treatment. I know this is set in a different time but I can’t help see the  lawyer as a stalker and the maid is a victim of workplace harassment. 
 

Also what is the deal with Marion’s obnoxious behavior? Am I supposed to be impressed with her? Am I supposed to think of her as the hero of this show? Forget it.

So far the only characters I like are Peggy, Ada, Agnes, the two Russell children, the two non racist downstairs staff members and the violently shunned Sylvia Chamberlain.

Edited February 8, 2022 by DiabLOL

[AntFTW]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I had trouble following the financial scheme of Mr. Russell's. So, the aldermen bought stock in his company on the margin, which means (to my understanding) they borrowed the money to buy that stock. Meaning they would only have to pay for it at the price it was when they bought it, even after it went up. So wouldn't they want the price to go up?

My understanding is that it’s a three-part scheme.

1. They borrow money to purchase the stock (buying on margin) and ride that stock up and sell it at a higher price. They keep a fat profit and are able to pay the borrowed money back.

2. Then, they borrow stock and sell that stock at higher price (taking a short position on the stock or short selling). They release the bad news (rescinding the legislation approving the new station) to drive the stock price down. Then, they buy back the stock at the lower price and repay the borrowed stock.

3. Assuming George had not stopped their plan, they planned to approve the new station a second time to drive the stock back up. They probably would have bought the stock on margin again and ride the stock price up and taking additional profit.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Wasn't that the plan all along, that the stock would rise when they voted for the new station, and they would have stock worth much more than they paid for?

That was the plan they told George. They had already intended to take back the approval of the new station and short selling the stock to double dip. The first part of the plan of buying on margin worked. They bought on margin, rode the price up, and sold at a higher price.

Where they failed is on their short position. For example, if they borrowed 100 units of stock and they sold that borrowed stock at $100 per share, at some point they will have to give back that 100 units to their bank or broker. The goal is to buy that 100 units back at a lower price, repay that 100 units, and keep the profit. Let’s say the stock price dipped to $50 per share. They buy the 100 units back at $50 a share. They received $10,000 from selling the stock and they spend $5,000 from buying back that stock, and they keep the $5,000 profit.

When the stock price increases, they have to buy that stock back at the higher price. They borrowed 100 units of stock at $100 per share and the stock price goes up to $110. They received $10,000 from selling the stock but they now have to spend $11,000 to buy that stock back. They lose $1,000.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

It was more than that--it was laying groundwork.  He said because of this incident, when he's negotiating with people in the future, they'll know that his counter-offer is the last one he's going to give, and they'd better take it. 

I understand. I preferred to use less words.

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

So does that maid's plans to get more out of life involve sleeping with Russell? Because she seems to have chosen the worst house in the world to try to...I don't know. She can't think he'd marry her or anything, I guess, but living in the house you'd think she'd notice that the guy loves his wife and that his wife would not think twice about chopping somebody up in a pie for trying it. 

I doubt Russell would have any interest in the maid.  Bertha seems way more than enough for him.

[kristen111]

Too much food shown here.  Now I have a yen to make an apple pie with ice cream on top.  Not kidding.

For anyone raised in New York, this series is thrilling to see how everything came about.  Wall Street, the Opera Houses, etc. , but as one poster said, at the time the streets were dirt and cobblestone.  Some still are cobblestone.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by kristen111

[bunnyface]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

I wonder if Mrs. Russell knows about the ambitions of the would-be mistress.  It would be great if it turned out Mrs. Russell was just waiting for her to hang herself.

Mrs. Russell doesn't seem the type to suffer that lightly, or wait for the long game.  I suspect that if she knew she would grind that maid under her heel until there was nothing but mush left.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I supposed because his birth (Mayflower etc.) Of course he must have had some means he had lived for decades with (late wife? soldier?)

That is a big loophole in the old money admissions department.

[MerBearHou]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

this show differs from Downton abbey in the sense that it made me care for even the schemers.  I don’t know I actually care about anyone on this show yet.  Some I like but still don’t care for

My sentiment exactly.  I am enjoying the show for its production and time period, but the characters...not a one I feel warm about much less care about.  

Peggy's accent is odd to me -- it sounds so southern at times.  I thought her dad was dear and a classic "trying to be helpful dad" even though she wants her independence.  I don't know why she feels such animosity to her parents -- so far, we haven't been told anything that would warrant "STAY AWAY".  That is sad to me.

[ZeeEnnui]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That's Fellowes' formula: a man tells a woman that she loves him and finally she yields to marry him. In Downton Abbey Tom told it to Sybil and Talbot told it to Mary.

Ugh. Yes. I think I'd wiped the memory of the Sybil and Tom toxic courtship from my memory. Ladies love an aggressive guy telling you how you feel, am I right? As much as I disliked Tom/Sybil, I ended up loving the friendship that developed between Mary and Tom (and ended up being kind of bummed when she ended up with Matthew Goode, which shocked even me, because Matthew Goode!). At least, Larry Russell was cute. So far he's just as boring as Marion, so they can go fade into the background together (hopefully off our screens). 

[HappyHanna]

2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I’m sure there’s more to her then just that.  They did get married.

There must be (or at least in a world not soley inhabited by Julian Fellowes there must be).  I am not sure how a child born too soon, but in wedlock, would translate into "her money is tainted! don't go near her!" Unless there is more to it, like through pregnancy she trapped her husband into marriage, taking him away from a more "worthy" woman. 

[AntFTW]

This is my favorite scene of the whole entire. They're just drinking tea but I love it.

[Heffa]

I feel as though as viewers we are supposed to be rooting for the Russells.  I think the differences highlighted by the way Bertha knew about George's dealings and supported his actions whilst knowing they could lose their fortune were deliberately contrasted to the Morrises, where the wife had no knowledge at all about how dire their situation was and would never have said 'we can raise another fortune'. 

To me that was meant to make me feel as though the Russells were the better couple, romantically, financially and supportively - but they are just so unlikeable.  I really only like Agnes at this point.  Marion is vapid and Ada comes across as a simpleton (I would love it if she were scheming behind the scenes and it were all an act).

 

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

I really don't like the aggressiveness that men have towards women in this show, but I guess it's period-accurate.  The butler really couldn't read the signs from the maid.  She was basically forced into going on a date with him.  Same with the overly pushy lawyer.  He actually proposed meeting in a hotel?! 

Marian seems like a fool too, pushing her aunt to accept the attentions of her former friend and continuing to meet with the lawyer.  It seems she's just trying to be spiteful towards her aunt.  If I was Agnes, I would just let her make the mistake of marrying the guy in order to get her out of the house.

I wonder if Mrs. Russell knows about the ambitions of the would-be mistress.  It would be great if it turned out Mrs. Russell was just waiting for her to hang herself.

To me, Marian is coming off too childish and pushy.  I don’t know if it’s in the script or her acting.  She just doesn’t seem right.

[Nedsdag]

Ha! What an episode!

Did the old bulls truly think they could pull the wool over George's eyes in that inside trading scheme? Did they know who they were dealing with? George Christian Grey'd them the way he put them into submission. Yes, we could see Morris's suicide coming a mile away once he walked up the stairs, but in the mind of the Russells, the end justifies the means. And Bertha's coldness to Mrs. Morris was justified. I love the chemistry between Morgan Spector and Carrie Coon. I hope the Turner character gets foiled in her attempt to lie under George.

Peggy is either naive or sheltered because she didn't think her color was going to be a detriment regarding her writing. There was no way that paper was going to keep her story intact nor give her black skin credit for writing the stories. She should've gotten the hint at the long wait at the editor's office.

Did anyone notice that Marian's lawyer's name is Raikes, as in "rake", meaning he could be a rake by trying to pull a fast one on her? Wake up, Marian! He's coming on too strong and even Agnes notices this and why she didn't allow Ada to marry Cornelius during their "courtship".
 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Nedsdag

[izabella]

I'm curious about Mrs. Chamberlain's child.  Should be an adult by now, right?  Where is s/he?  She's always alone.  Is her husband still alive? 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

Peggy is either naive or sheltered because she didn't think her color was going to be a detriment regarding her writing. There was no way that paper was going to keep her story intact nor give her black skin credit for writing the stories. She should've gotten the hint at the long wait at the editor's office.

I think Peggy knew it was going to be a detriment but I think she underestimated how much of a detriment it would be.

[DiabLOL]

16 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

 

Did anyone notice that Marian's lawyer's name is Raikes, as in "rake", meaning he could be a rake by trying to pull a fast one on her? 
 

Absolutely! A rake and an adventurer!

[izabella]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What's wrong with marrying a lawyer? That is, if she loves him.

Besides, Marian has no money, so can she realistically hope for a better suitor? If Aunt Agnes dies, her fortune goes to Oscar. 

Since Raikes is not Old NY nor Old Money and his clients are without money or status, like Peggy, Marian marrying Raikes would mean she would be middle class and would not be part of the Old NY social scene, either.   He is from a different social class than she is.  He isn't allowed to call on her at home because he is part of the working class/middle class.  I doubt anyone besides Agnes and Ada would be socializing with her at all if she made what would be considered a "bad match" as far as Old NY is concerned.

I suspect she wouldn't actually want to be middle class and married to someone in a different social stratum, despite her bold words about the society she benefits from.  She is speaking from a position of social privilege and a cocoon of financial comfort, and hasn't experienced a single cold shoulder turned away from her.  If she married Raikes, the cold shoulders would appear, and that would include Mrs. Russell and all the New Money. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by izabella

[ajsnaves]

13 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Does Oscar just keep that dude in a box under his bed or something?

I can think of worse things to have under your bed. 

I am enjoying this show more than I expected. I loved Downton, but was a bit trepidatious coming into this.  But so far I love that I really don’t think we are supposed to root for anyone here. At least not the “adults.”. The younger crowd seem to see the writing the wall. I am guessing Mrs. Astor will too, by season end.

I do think Agnes has put herself in an interesting position with Old v. New.  She has clearly maintained her connections with the Old, but has not gone out of her way to spurn and piss off the New.  She has even “welcomed” Larry into her home for tea, and “allowed” Oscar to go to The Russell’s for dinner.  And she has done all of this while barely leaving her Sitting Room. She is setting herself up to be the mediator between the two if she’s not careful.

[kristen111]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What's wrong with marrying a lawyer? That is, if she loves him.

Besides, Marian has no money, so can she realistically hope for a better suitor? If Aunt Agnes dies, her fortune goes to Oscar. 

I’m not complaining, but I wouldn’t mind marrying a lawyer.  I’m already taken tho. Lol.

If Agnes’s money goes to Oscar .. what about Ada and Marian, should they not marry?

[dmc]

2 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

Louisa Jacobson is so terrible, she’s a mumbling blur on my screen in all her scenes. Really a weak point in this show.

I really don’t know what the best move for Peggy should be. I’d say take the money and then really put all your energy into getting published elsewhere without all the lies BUT that wouldn’t work if she used her real name in all the places. 

I read an actual review where Louise’s acting was criticized.  I haven’t been overwhelmed by the show so maybe I haven’t noticed it because of that but reviewers apparently noticed

[kristen111]

15 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

I can think of worse things to have under your bed. 

I am enjoying this show more than I expected. I loved Downton, but was a bit trepidatious coming into this.  But so far I love that I really don’t think we are supposed to root for anyone here. At least not the “adults.”. The younger crowd seem to see the writing the wall. I am guessing Mrs. Astor will too, by season end.

I do think Agnes has put herself in an interesting position with Old v. New.  She has clearly maintained her connections with the Old, but has not gone out of her way to spurn and piss off the New.  She has even “welcomed” Larry into her home for tea, and “allowed” Oscar to go to The Russell’s for dinner.  And she has done all of this while barely leaving her Sitting Room. She is setting herself up to be the mediator between the two if she’s not careful.

I’m enjoying this too.  I loved Downton, but this show is us and our town and our country.  We can associate more, IMO.  I’m fascinated by Agnes.  It’s like she’s playing chess with the cast.  She sits in her parlor and figures everything and everyone out.  She’s a hoot.

[dmc]

Vulture on Marion

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-gilded-age-season-1-episode-1-premiere-recap-never-the-new.html

 

Episode 1 

“Here’s where I admit that I do not care about Marian. Maybe future episodes will make me care about her! I have not given up hope on Marian. Sometimes it takes younger actors a few episodes to get into it, but as of the premiere, she is stilted and does that thing some actors do where they overenunciate because it takes place in The Past. Am I also grumpy that the actress playing her compared “calling-card culture” to Instagram? Possibly. But fortunately, there are so many other characters!”

 

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-gilded-age-season-1-episode-2-recap-money-isnt-everything.html

Episode 2

“Marian Brook is still bad at acting, but Peggy Scott is a delight, so this scene is a mixed bag.”

 

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-gilded-age-season-one-episode-three-recap.html

Episode 3

 

their opinion on the lawyer guy who is bad news 

“He invites her to go to Madison Square and check out the Statue of Liberty’s hand, which was just hanging out there as a prompt to donate for the whole statue. Tom tells Marian he’ll be there like it’s a treat to spend time with this man.

They meet and he hoists up a party garland of red flags by proposing to her. He tells her he could have proposed to her when they first met in his office and to send him a message when she wants to see him. NEVER. I HOPE IT’S NEVER. Good LORD.”

Edited February 8, 2022 by dmc

[DiabLOL]

I have good and bad dread.
 

Bad dread: Marion marries the lawyer, Gladys marries Oscar, the maid keeps getting harassed by the butler (and we’re supposed to see it as cute young love).

Good dread: the whole maid and the Russels situation. It’s stressful and I love it!

[dmc]

Just now, DiabLOL said:

I have good and bad dread.
 

Bad dread: Marion marries the lawyer, Gladys marries Oscar, the maid keeps getting harassed by the butler (and we’re supposed to see it as cute young love).

Good dread: the whole maid and the Russels situation. It’s stressful and I love it!

If all this happens the genre will change to horror 

[Hiyo]

Quote

If Agnes’s money goes to Oscar .. what about Ada and Marian, should they not marry?

I think Agnes would leave enough for Ada to live off of comfortably.

Marian, though, is probably on her own.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Hiyo

[dmc]

Just now, Hiyo said:

I think Agnes would leave a little something for Ada to live off of comfortably.

Marion though, is probabaly on her own.

I feel like the show is sending obvious hints that Marion will end up with Bertha’s son until he pulls a Matthew and dies in a carriage accident 

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Marion though, is probabaly on her own.

That's why she's trying to find Marian a well-off suitor.

Marian is young, pretty and capable of finding an old money suitor if she follows her aunt's rules to not mingle with the commoners.

Edited February 8, 2022 by AntFTW

[kristen111]

3 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Louisa Jacobson just can't pull off charming, compelling or more interesting than watching paint dry.

She reminds me of a girl younger than her in a school play.  Her sentences come out all together very fast it seems.  Eh!  What do I know about acting?  I’m sure her Mother gave her pointers.

[tennisgurl]

I knew it was coming, but that ending was brutal. If we have learned anything in this show so far, its that people need to stop screwing with the Russels. You don't become a railroad tycoon by playing softball. Although to be fair, the rest of the old men brigade were trying to screw George over as well, so they don't exactly have the moral high ground either. I feel bad for his wife and kids, she hasn't been the nicest lady but that's a horrible thing to have to deal with, her husband is now dead and how has all of his debts to deal with, not to mention their position in society is probably in jeopardy.

So we find out Mrs. Chamberlain's terrible secret, that she and her husband had a child out of wedlock, but I think there is more to it than that. Yes that was a really big deal back then, but the way people treat her like she's a plague carrier seems to hint that there is more to the story that Ada's didn't say. I wonder if she was formally in a "scandalous" profession like theater or dancing when she met her husband, and that's the real reason people are so scandalized by her to the point where they wont even take her money. They'll even take the Russel's money, even if they roll their eyes and wear gloves while doing it to avoid too much contact.

Look at Gladys blackmailing her babysitter, looks like she has a bit of her parents ruthlessness after all underneath that sweetness. Oscar might want to watch himself. 

That maid really picked the wrong house if she wants to get ahead by seducing a rich married man. The Russel's actually have a happy, fulfilling marriage, and Bertha will cut somebody who messes with her. 

Poor Peggy. And poor Ada.

[kristen111]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

The scheming maid is making me nervous! I really  wish I could find spoilers for this show!

I don’t think we have to worry about the maid.  Bertha seems to know all the tricks to keep him happy.  This is a show tho.  You never know what will pop up.

[Hiyo]

Quote

So we find out Mrs. Chamberlain's terrible secret, that she and her husband had a child out of wedlock, but I think there is more to it than that. Yes that was a really big deal back then, but the way people treat her like she's a plague carrier seems to hint that there is more to the story that Ada's didn't say.

Having a child out of wedlock back then put you on the same level as a whore I would imagine. So...even that on it's own would be extremely scandalous.

[dmc]

23 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I don’t think we have to worry about the maid.  Bertha seems to know all the tricks to keep him happy.  This is a show tho.  You never know what will pop up.

I feel like they introduced it so it has to mean something but it may not be an affair. It could be the scheme that other commentor mentioned. 

[MBayGal]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

For example, if they borrowed 100 units of stock and they sold that borrowed stock at $100 per share, at some point they will have to give back that 100 units to their bank or broker.

How do you borrow stock??

[dmc]

7 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

How do you borrow stock??

I think you get it on margin.

and apparently that means this 

Buying on margin involves borrowing money from a broker to purchase stock. A margin account increases purchasing power and allows investors to use someone else's money to increase financial leverage. Margin trading offers greater profit potential than traditional trading, but also greater risks.

Edited February 8, 2022 by dmc

[MBayGal]

Thank you, DMC!  I mostly have mutual funds, so the clever ways of stock traders are not known to me.😉

[AntFTW]

25 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

How do you borrow stock??

Usually through a broker. The broker would find the stocks you wish to short. The broker will likely (definitely) require you to have a margin account.

For example, you can do it through E-trade or TD, or whichever you use, and they will find the stocks you want to short.

Edited February 8, 2022 by AntFTW

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

Thank you, DMC!  I mostly have mutual funds, so the clever ways of stock traders are not known to me.😉

I knew about the margin from movies and I just googled what it meant LOL. 

[MBayGal]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Usually throw a broker.

Wouldn't that be considered assault?😉😉

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

Wouldn't that be considered assault?😉😉

The aldermen may literally want to throw their brokers now 🤣

[Yours Truly]

I don’t think aunt Agnes is worried about the lawyer wanting in on “money or status” more like she just believes he wouldn’t be the best in providing for Marian. Like her brother Henry. Frivolous with his responsibilities without understanding the dangers of leaving a wife/sister/female relatives fending for themselves once that adventurous spirit leaves them in despair. I think that’s where Agnes’s concerns lie. He’s not a SOLID earner not because he isn’t in a profession that can provide at least comfortably but that something in his nature makes him a risk to the security of anyone who marries him. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Yours Truly

[DiabLOL]

I keep thinking about how the lawyer has demonstrated a total lack of care about Marian’s reputation. Closing his office door, suggesting they meet up at the hotel. Thoughts?

[dmc]

5 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

I keep thinking about how the lawyer has demonstrated a total lack of care about Marian’s reputation. Closing his office door, suggesting they meet up at the hotel. Thoughts?

this guy is a creep.  I am not sure how yet but I won't be surprised when his wife and baby from PA show up

[Hiyo]

Would a woman like Marian have needed a chaperone back then when meeting a man? I know in the UK for a long time unmarried younger women, especially from the upper class, needed one.

[DiabLOL]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

this guy is a creep.  I am not sure how yet but I won't be surprised when his wife and baby from PA show up

Right? He knows what the deal is. She’s not even supposed to go out alone. They let us see Peggy’s shocked expression when he closed his office door.

 

[dmc]

Just now, DiabLOL said:

Right? He knows what the deal is. She’s not even supposed to go out alone. They let us see Peggy’s shocked expression when he closed his office door.

 

something there is off....

also do we just have his word she is penniless

 

[DiabLOL]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

something there is off....

also do we just have his word she is penniless

 

You know I keep wondering if he knows something. He sure relocated to NYC in a flash.