S01.E10: Seeing the Light

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, violet and green said:

No, I don't think from what she was reported to have said, that it wasn't that it wouldn't ring true - just that they would be, and I quote 'fumbling around' - whereas Che obviously knew what she was doing and it was a revelation to Miranda... 

HMMM.  

I feel like the issue here is Cynthia thinks her experiences are everyone's experiences and the writers should not have listened to her and just wrote it their way.  

Edited February 5, 2022 by dmc

[violet and green]

Yeah, I think she really wanted to tell her own story, and that has interfered with the flow of the series in a way she was not expecting. And of course produced all this backlash... Hubris.

[dmc]

Just now, violet and green said:

Yeah, I think she really wanted to tell her own story, and that has interfered with the flow of the series in a way she was not expecting. And of course produced all this backlash... Hubris.

Agreed 100%. Cynthia Nixon is a good actor, but writing is a different skill.  I wonder if due to Kim not doing, they felt obligated to basically give the other three leads what they wanted

[bluegirl147]

13 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Yeah, I think she really wanted to tell her own story, and that has interfered with the flow of the series in a way she was not expecting. And of course produced all this backlash... Hubris.

Yes.  Cynthia wanted what she wanted with no regard with how it would affect the show. Funny how that is exactly what happened with Miranda. 

12 minutes ago, dmc said:

Agreed 100%. Cynthia Nixon is a good actor, but writing is a different skill.  I wonder if due to Kim not doing, they felt obligated to basically give the other three leads what they wanted

Seems like Cynthia was the only one who wanted something that really fucked up the show.

[mansonlamps]

16 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Yeah, I think she really wanted to tell her own story, and that has interfered with the flow of the series in a way she was not expecting. And of course produced all this backlash... Hubris.

I know Cynthia Nixon came out late in life and left her husband for a woman,  but I know zilch about the woman.   Was she a younger non- binary performer or is that just Cynthia's personal fantasy?

[bluegirl147]

1 minute ago, mansonlamps said:

I know Cynthia Nixon came out late in life and left her husband for a woman,  but I know zilch about the woman.   Was she a younger non- binary performer or is that just Cynthia's personal fantasy?

I think her wife was a teacher or something to do with education. I think she is gay and not younger.

[violet and green]

1 minute ago, mansonlamps said:

Was she a younger non- binary performer or is that just Cynthia's personal fantasy?

No, she is a really sweet-faced looking woman, with an endearing smile. Google her: "Nixon has been married to Christine Marinoni, a prominent LGBTQ rights and education advocate, since 2012."

[dmc]

Nixon met her future wife in 2001, while they were both fighting for smaller class sizes in New York's public school system via the Alliance for Quality Education, an education non-profit that Marinoni helped found. At the time, Nixon's two children with then-partner Danny Mozes—Samuel, now 23, and Charles, 18—were enrolled in New York's public school system.

 

According to Advocate, Marinoni and Nixon bonded more during Nixon's split from Mozes in 2003, and began dating in 2004. "It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out," Nixon told Advocatein 2010. "It was like, this person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?"

Prior to falling in love with Marinoni, Nixon said she had not been romantically involved with a woman. "I have been with men all my life and had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before," she told the Daily Mirror, per CNN. "But when I did, it didn't seem so strange. It didn't change who I am. I'm just a woman who fell in love with a woman."

 

Marinoni came out as a lesbian, and opened up a coffee shop that catered to the LGBTQ community.

 

Her wife seems like a really good person 

Edited February 5, 2022 by dmc

[T Summer]

 Cynthia Nixon wanted Sara Ramirez on the show. You can Google and find articles with these quotes from her saying so and she stated it on Drew Barrymore's show.

"Nixon reveals she was already a huge fan of Ramirez and was really gunning for them to get the role!"

“I suggested them because I had been aware of them for so long and such a fan,” she said.

"And Just Like That star Cynthia Nixon reveals how she was behind casting of Sara Ramirez as Che Diaz in Sex And The City reboot"

@ 30:00 in the documentary you hear CN saying  "Nya was a straight character  and Miranda's a  straight character character... ...and I was like, that doesn't sound very sexy at all. Do you know what I mean?   To women who have gotten to this age and are now just sort of fumbling around. That doesn't seem great.  ..and I was like, why couldn't it be, you know, why  couldn't it be this butch person that you're talking about having for Carrie"

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, T Summer said:

 Cynthia Nixon wanted Sara Ramirez on the show. You can Google and find articles with these quotes from her saying so and she stated it on Drew Barrymore's show.

"Nixon reveals she was already a huge fan of Ramirez and was really gunning for them to get the role!"

“I suggested them because I had been aware of them for so long and such a fan,” she said.

"And Just Like That star Cynthia Nixon reveals how she was behind casting of Sara Ramirez as Che Diaz in Sex And The City reboot"

@ 30:00 in the documentary you hear CN saying  "Nya was a straight character  and Miranda's a  straight character character... ...and I was like, that doesn't sound very sexy at all. Do you know what I mean?   To women who have gotten to this age and are now just sort of fumbling around. That doesn't seem great.  ..and I was like, why couldn't it be, you know, why  couldn't it be this butch person that you're talking about having for Carrie"

So was she watching Sara on Grey’s Anatomy or something else? 

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, T Summer said:

 

@ 30:00 in the documentary you hear CN saying  "Nya was a straight character  and Miranda's a  straight character character... ...and I was like, that doesn't sound very sexy at all. Do you know what I mean?   To women who have gotten to this age and are now just sort of fumbling around. That doesn't seem great.  ..and I was like, why couldn't it be, you know, why  couldn't it be this butch person that you're talking about having for Carrie"

Hey to break it her but I didn't find her and Che sexy in the least.

And is the first we are hearing about Carrie and Che were supposed to be involved?

[dmc]

This is actually another thing that was weird to me that Miranda basically starts dating Carrie’s boss and there’s never a side conversation between Carrie and Che at all.  
 

[Tattooeddancer]

21 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The was the only think Che did that I liked. Ramirez got their start singing on Broadway.

Hey! Some of us pale-skinned blue-eyed blondes like wearing orange, it brings out our eyes :)

I think blondes can pull off pretty much anything! Although I do stand by not mixing orange and pink ;)

[T Summer]

Just now, dmc said:

So was she watching Sara on Grey’s Anatomy or something else? 

Gray's Anatomy is mentioned in the articles. Haven't heard CN speak about  it specifically, but she may have.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/27/sex-and-the-city-cynthia-nixon-on-fixing-overwhelmingly-white-show-15998518/

https://www.out.com/television/2022/1/27/cynthia-nixon-really-wanted-sara-ramirez-play-che-and-just-like-that-hbo-max-satc-reboot

on Drew Barrymore's show CN says she was always watching Sara Ramirez's career [TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN IF YOU WATCH THIS VIDEO]

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

And is the first we are hearing about Carrie and Che were supposed to be involved?

I only got that Che would be hosting the podcast Carrie was on. Nothing romantic was suggested; whereas the element of Naya and Miranda originally slated  to have gotten together has been written and spoken about.

[Rebecca berkowit]

21 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Hey to break it her but I didn't find her and Che sexy in the least.

And is the first we are hearing about Carrie and Che were supposed to be involved?

Butch person?  She said butch person?  Guess the other actress was too femme for her? That’s what she meant by not finding two straight women interesting?  She thought it would be hotter to have a butch person show Miranda the ropes?   Wow.  They changed the whole show based on her fantasy attraction to a butch person.  Just.  No words. 

[T Summer]

I did watch the documentary which I'll comment mostly on on the appropriate thread. It was interesting to hear that part where Cynthia Nixon said those things I quoted above, as it removes all doubt that she steered the story line toward having Che (Sara Ramirez) be Miranda's romantic interest.

It's not as bad as one might think(the docu), and may be of interest to those who want a  nice close look at the fashions, the selection thereof, the wardrobe  people (and crew) in action.

Also of note: Kristin Davis is loud and screechy in person. David Eigenberg DOES NOT speak in any kind of slow-witted fashion or speak sounding as though he's doing so through gritted teeth! Seema (Sarita Choudhury) spoke in a softer smoother way and was directed to deliver a line in a more stilted  fashion.

4 minutes ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

Butch person?  She said butch person?  Guess the other actress was too femme for her? That’s what she meant by not finding two straight women interesting?  She thought it would be hotter to have a butch person show Miranda the ropes?   Wow.  They changed the whole show based on her fantasy attraction to a butch person.  Just.  No words. 

Most enthusiastically!

[ruby24]

I'm not sure I understand what CN is trying to say. Does she still of Miranda as straight then? It sounds like she thinks having two straight characters realize they're gay at the same time is changing the character too much, and Miranda as a straight character is capable of falling in love with a "butch" non-binary person without having to change. Maybe she still doesn't think of Miranda as a lesbian.

I hate how it seems like neither Carrie or Charlotte are allowed to tell her what they really think. They seem like they disapprove (Carrie especially since Charlotte has kind of removed herself from the conversation) but aren't saying it out loud. I don't think Carrie approves at all of what Miranda's doing and she should be allowed to say it to her face. Miranda NEVER hid what she thought of what her friends did. JUDGE HER!

[buttersister]

Quote

So Carrie and Samantha have reconciled...yet we don't see it.

Because it never happened! #TeamKim

TPTB chose lesbian, binary, grieving and Judaism as plot point words. Then screwed up each one of them through narcissism, ignorance and acting like a bunch of hacks.

Carrie/SJP couldn’t even wear the Valentino properly. 🤡

You guys were fun, though.

[Lethallyfab]

A pilot is NOT A PICK-UP, Miranda and Che!  Given the way streaming and regular TV are going, they could’ve at least said it was a straight-to-series order to make their uprooting their lives make sense.  (Do they not remember that Miranda got a hard dose of NOT drinking the LA kool-aid by seeing her quintessentially New Yorker friend chew and spit out his steak because he  had to look hot — and that was a writer!)

My wish for season two: Che’s pilot isn’t picked up.  They cope by screwing everyone and everything while Miranda just has to sit there and take it (“I told you I wasn’t traditional!”  “You weren’t monogamous when we met, how can you expect me to be?”).  Che tweets something they think is edgy but gets them canceled.  Che and Miranda break up.  Miranda has uprooted her entire life - including letting her child do whatever he wants and leaving him without an ounce of remorse or repercussions   - to move to LA and is left out on the curb.  She has too much pride to admit that she’s failed and move back to New York and so is forced to take a job as a legal consultant on an absolutely terrible and ludicrous network TV legal drama, after throwing both her high-paying legal job and the educational path to a socially conscious job away.  This is all dealt with in episode one and from then on, she only exists as a text bubble in Carrie and Charlotte’s phones.

[NotMySekrit2Tell]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm not sure I understand what CN is trying to say. Does she still of Miranda as straight then? It sounds like she thinks having two straight characters realize they're gay at the same time is changing the character too much, and Miranda as a straight character is capable of falling in love with a "butch" non-binary person without having to change. Maybe she still doesn't think of Miranda as a lesbian.

What I get from it is that she thought it would be a better story if Miranda had an affair with someone on the LGBTQ spectrum who'd "been around the block," so to speak, and was confident and comfortable in her skin, whereas Nya would be someone exactly at Miranda's level: presently married, always had been with men, adjusting to big new feelings and experiences. She thought the "fumbling around" would be awkward rather than sexy and romantic. Presumably she did find material like the scene in Carrie's kitchen sexy and romantic...or hoped it would read that way.  

I'm not going to say actors should never have input into their characters and influence the story direction. Even actors without executive producer credit (as CN had) have contributed things that made a movie or TV show better. I've even heard great directors be big enough to admit that an actor resisted something or suggested something and convinced the director they were right, and what ended up being done was an improvement. But AJLT had a ton of problems -- and, IMO, wasn't consistently well scripted in any respect -- and it would seem Nixon's idea led to some of them. It also had the effect of marooning Karen Pittman in a story that felt disconnected from the rest of the series.

Edited February 6, 2022 by NotMySekrit2Tell

[Kreegah]

12 hours ago, T Summer said:

 @ 30:00 in the documentary you hear CN saying  "Nya was a straight character  and Miranda's a  straight character character... ...and I was like, that doesn't sound very sexy at all. Do you know what I mean?   To women who have gotten to this age and are now just sort of fumbling around. That doesn't seem great.  "

Its just pathetic how she is trying to justify this nonsence. What a BS excuse! If it would've been Nya, it doesn't mean the rest of her story should have been the same. Why not have the professor always been gay/bi /whatever?
What is NOT believable is someone like Che getting interested of an elderly heterosexual (until then) housewife, acting like a lunatic half of the time. What is NOT sexy is getting some in your friends kitchen while betraying her need for your help at the moment. What is NOT great is if they try to repair their damage by actually pushing Miranda+Nya together next season (latter being dissapointed in her man and traditional family model in general and all). Please don't stain anymore characters with this stinky scenario. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Kreegah

[Proclone]

22 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

So much this! I noticed this as well--Miranda stopped drinking and immediately adopted another addiction, Che. But the show never explored that Che was her new addiction. And Che was themselves an addict of weed. (JFC, the connnnstannnnt talk of weed.) This absolutely could and should have been explored but, of course, wasn't.

My biggest issue with the show is that they didn't explore anything.  About the only storyline that wasn't given short shrift was Carrie's...and while the show has always centered around her, don't bring up other storylines if you're not planning on doing them justice.

They never explored what it meant for Miranda to explore her sexuality.  I take umbrage at the comments (not here but in other places) about how since Miranda kissed one woman thirty years ago and wasn't into it; she can't possibly be attracted to anyone who isn't a man...That's absurd and quite frankly damaging. For some people, sexuality is fluid.  It can't be changed by external forces (no praying the gay away), but it can evolve.  Also, it's possible to be that deep in the closet that you don't understand your sexuality.

I'm not saying every story about queer people coming to terms with their sexuality has to be this angsty torturous thing...but a little introspection about it would have been lovely.  Miranda doesn't even think about her attraction to Che and what it means about her; she acts on it.  This might work for some characters, but not Miranda Hobbs, who thought about everything.

Also, making Miranda the least bit reflective would allow them to explore how poorly queer characters were treated in the original show.  Maybe have Miranda acknowledge how nasty and judgmental she was when Samantha dated a woman. Perhaps explore how that could have been related to Miranda's own internalized homophobia.  That's certainly something I struggled with and caused me to do and say some unsavory things before I accepted my sexuality (which I still struggle with). I know others that have worked with similar issues.

I also don't love how Rock's storyline was handled. It seems in character for Charlotte to make Rock's coming out as well Rock (they seemed to indicate that they don't identify as nonbinary in the last episode) as all about her.  And like I said, the show is always going to center on the original characters.  But we did get a pretty extensive exploration of Nya's infertility...and some of that time could have been used to explore Rock and what they thought and felt about everything.  This also would have allowed for a more nuanced refusal of the ''They-Mitzvah''. Perhaps have them try to talk to their parents about their hesitancy but be shut down, leading to the outright rejection.  As it was written, it made them seem lazy and unprepared and then a brat for refusing.  But they could have gone deeper and explored what it means to become an adult in a religious tradition that's steeped in gender roles when you don't identify with a gender...They also could have used Rabbi Jen to talk about this with Rock and maybe share her own experiences.  I wouldn't be surprised if she were forced to have a Bar Mitzvah and how that shaped her view of religion.

I also would have loved it if anyone at any point acknowledged how lucky Rock was.  The parents at their school immediately use their preferred names and pronouns.  The school supports them as well.  They don't seem to be bullied or harassed.  Sure we should strive for this to happen for every kid...but some acknowledgment that it often doesn't would be nice.  Not necessarily by Rock; they are 13 and don't know another world. But by Charlotte, having her come to realize her kid is lucky would be nice.

This could have been accomplished by having Charlotte talk to Che.  It would bring Che more into the plot instead of being only connected to Miranda and slightly to Carrie.  It also allowed us to get more backstory and make them more a three-dimensional character.

The only times I liked Che was when they were talking about their history.  Talking about their father (I believe), thinking the doctor called them a dyke. Joking about coming out to their family, and none of them caring. Including more of their story could have both opened the eyes of the other character to what it means to be nonbinary, bisexual, and poly and made the character more likable.

I might be the only one, but I did think that Che's Netflix special was funny, like the real experience of preparing to come out...only to have no one have a strong reaction.  I also liked them talking about tokenism and the one trans or queer character in the background by themselves...It was also a little on the nose.  And this whole show seems to be an attempt by the writers to jump up and down and wave, ''We're not doing that, we're not doing that.'' And I will give them some credit for including more POC and queer characters than were ever in the original.  But they're not, for the most part writing them well.  And I might be a minority, but if you're not going to do justice to these characters' storylines, then I prefer you do not do it at all.

I also think that writers have a responsibility to think about the kind of representation they are putting out there. I'm not saying that every queer or trans character has to be perfect or have no flaws.  But they wrote Che as polarizing.  They had to know that some people would react badly to the character.  And since there aren't a lot of nonbinary characters on TV and I think it's essential to think out how they are portrayed.  Because for many people, media is the only way they encounter people very different from themselves. And when these people only see nonbinary people as brash pot-smoking, not particularly funny comedians, who are okay finger banging an acquaintance in their coworker's kitchen...I'm just saying it doesn't put nonbinary people in the best light. They for the record could have made Nya NB if they wanted to have Miranda with someone who didn't identify as a woman. I know a NB college professor around her age. Showing a realistic portrayal of an intelligent successful NB person, would have been good representation. Instead we leaned into every stereotype of older people's thinking of what younger queer people are like (ignoring that Sara isn't actually that young).

I think the show was trying, but it seems evident that they didn't have anyone who had lived these experiences writing them....or at least they weren't listening to them...To paraphrase Charlotte, You're not progressive enough for this, Show.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Proclone

[Pestilentia]

17 minutes ago, Kreegah said:

you hear CN saying  "Nya was a straight character  and Miranda's a  straight character character... ...and I was like, that doesn't sound very sexy at all. Do you know what I mean?   To women who have gotten to this age and are now just sort of fumbling around. That doesn't seem great.  "

 

WTF with all the "fumbling around" comments? 

So two previously straight women wouldn't know how to have sex with each other?   I've been a straight woman for 67 years and even I know how to have sex with another woman and I have no doubt I could do so in a spectacular fashion! And any "fumbling" could have added to a sense of discovery and newness and THRILL anyway.   Bah humbug STUPID EXCUSE.

IMO the whole concept of a "fumbling" problem is a purely hamfisted attempt by CN to justify some pretty poor choices in "telling her story." She would do anything and say anything at this point to make it seem like we the viewers are not 'getting' it so it's our fault the whole thing tanked so badly and not hers for serving us such a steaming pile of Che shit.  

Miranda was always my favorite character- she was smarter, less flighty, made less ridiculous clothing choices, chose Steve, and had a serious career. To see how she just trashed all of it (the internship!!!!) is insulting to me personally as a Miranda fan.   If they do come back with a season 2 they better give Miranda a pretty aggressive glioblastoma or something to explain this personality change because this is not Miranda.

[Rebecca berkowit]

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm not sure I understand what CN is trying to say. Does she still of Miranda as straight then? It sounds like she thinks having two straight characters realize they're gay at the same time is changing the character too much, and Miranda as a straight character is capable of falling in love with a "butch" non-binary person without having to change. Maybe she still doesn't think of Miranda as a lesbian.

I hate how it seems like neither Carrie or Charlotte are allowed to tell her what they really think. They seem like they disapprove (Carrie especially since Charlotte has kind of removed herself from the conversation) but aren't saying it out loud. I don't think Carrie approves at all of what Miranda's doing and she should be allowed to say it to her face. Miranda NEVER hid what she thought of what her friends did. JUDGE HER!

She still doesn’t think of HERSELF as a lesbian, at least from those interviews.  Like Miranda, she says she just fell in love with a particular person.   (Total coincidence, I’m sure, that for both herself and Miranda, this person happened to have a butch presentation.)    But it should be noted that her whole embracing of the butch/femme paradigm does not seem particularly rejecting of the idea of a gender binary, despite having hired a non-binary actor.  (It is, however, a rejection of gender stereotypes, at least with regard to women, but that’s an old idea dating to second-wave feminism).   I guess I don’t really see why they needed a non-binary actor at all if all they were going to do was have that character do bad comedy where they scream about being non-binary.  Let’s not kid ourselves, obviously this wasn’t about non-binary representation, despite CN and MPK’s faint protestations now in interviews.  CN wanted SR for the part,  on account of the butchness she was attracted to.  Let me just make it clear that I personally don’t think there’s necessarily anything wrong with the butch/femme paradigm if that’s what you’re into.  (I’m in her age group, and that’s what we are familiar with.  This new stuff is hard to understand, at least for me.)  But the people behind this show decided to take on these new concepts of gender/sexuality such as non-binary, pan, etc., supposedly, because they’re so modern and transgressive.  They consciously decided not to make this a lesbian relationship, though it was originally conceived as one.   It’s just another instance of this show saying it’s super woke and transgressive, but not being so. 

8 hours ago, buttersister said:

Because it never happened! #TeamKim

TPTB chose lesbian, binary, grieving and Judaism as plot point words. Then screwed up each one of them through narcissism, ignorance and acting like a bunch of hacks.

Carrie/SJP couldn’t even wear the Valentino properly. 🤡

You guys were fun, though.

I read an interview with two of the writers of the last episode, and it looked to me like they were Jewish, from their names at least.  It’s a shonda.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[Jillybean]

5 hours ago, Kreegah said:

Its just pathetic how she is trying to justify this nonsence. What a BS excuse! If it would've been Nya, it doesn't mean the rest of her story should have been the same. Why not have the professor always been gay/bi /whatever?
What is NOT believable is someone like Che getting interested of an elderly heterosexual (until then) housewife, acting like a lunatic half of the time. What is NOT sexy is getting some in your friends kitchen while betraying her need for your help at the moment. What is NOT great is if they try to repair their damage by actually pushing Miranda+Nya together next season (latter being dissapointed in her man and traditional family model in general and all). Please don't stain anymore characters with this stinky scenario. 

Hey now. 

[Kreegah]

36 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Hey now. 

Sorry, I didn't mean Mirandas' age (and never mind my own :)
I got from grandmothers lineup and hair color emphasis, that we are meant to think Miranda and Che have much bigger age difference than CN and Sara Ramirez in real life

[mansonlamps]

44 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Hey now. 

She was never a housewife either,  she was a lawyer. 

[bluegirl147]

41 minutes ago, Kreegah said:

Sorry, I didn't mean Mirandas' age (and never mind my own :)
I got from grandmothers lineup and hair color emphasis, that we are meant to think Miranda and Che have much bigger age difference than CN and Sara Ramirez in real life

But why do that?  Are we supposed to think it's great Miranda can get someone younger?   Or think Che isn't so awful if they like someone so much older?  The show clearly wanted us to know Che was someone who had been with a lot of people.  So if they are settling down with Miranda then it must be true love?  This whole storyline was Cynthia Nixon writing the equivalent of really bad fan fiction.  

[Kreegah]

2 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

She was never a housewife either,  she was a lawyer. 

That was SATC Miranda. New one had quit her job and lost the passion for a new career also in the course of AJLT. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Kreegah

[Shermie]

10 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

WTF with all the "fumbling around" comments? 

So two previously straight women wouldn't know how to have sex with each other?   I've been a straight woman for 67 years and even I know how to have sex with another woman and I have no doubt I could do so in a spectacular fashion! And any "fumbling" could have added to a sense of discovery and newness and THRILL anyway.   Bah humbug STUPID EXCUSE.

This. Does Cynthia Nixon think a sexually active woman wouldn’t know what is involved in pleasing another woman? I mean, there’s always the jokes that men can’t find “it”, but women should typically know how to satisfy each other, if so inclined. Besides, two hetero virgins manage to have sex, and it might be awkward or it might be hot. Either is possible. People with many years of sexual experience can have boring rote sex, and people who are just hot for each other, experience or not, can have rip-roaring sex. It’s so stupid that CN thought her character would be fumbling round if mutually attracted to another (previously) hetero woman. Stupid excuse, indeed.

3 hours ago, Kreegah said:

That was SATC Miranda. New one had quit her job and lost the passion for a new career also in the course of AJLT. 

But Miranda was taking courses to change her career. She was not a housewife. Although using that description to imply that would make her even more unappealing is kind of insulting.

[T Summer]

5 hours ago, Kreegah said:

That was SATC Miranda. New one had quit her job and lost the passion for a new career also in the course of AJLT. 

This was part of one of the write ups for the show:

In the description of this reboot it's stated about Miranda: "She has quit corporate law after 30 years and is going back to school to get a Masters in human rights to pair with her law degree, "so hopefully I can become an advocate for women who need one.

 

[newyawk]

Watching this now. ETA: I get it about the rabbi now. It's Charlotte trying to be sensitive to her child's situation. Okay.

  And yes, Miranda was really insensitive about Carrie and Charlotte believing in Heaven, especially given Big's recent death.

I think most people would not only have been fine with Carrie having flashback scenes with Big, she is, after all in mourning and misses him terribly, but the audience would have apreciated seeing them despite Noth's real world scandal. I think it was a mistake to remove them.

I also thought the reading light blinking was very sweet, especially after it was "fixed."  Also:

I HATE THAT STEVE IS A FOOTNOTE AND A PLOT DEVICE IN THIS SHOW.

. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by newyawk
had an extra thought, rethought an earlier one

[BrindaWalsh]

The only reason "the numbers are so high" on this trainwreck is because the entire world is hate-watching.  

Please, HBO, cancel them and I can go back to thinking that Miranda is happy with Steve, Carrie and Big are happy with her black diamond ring, Samantha is happy having sex on the beach with a hot dane, and Charlotte is happy with screaming baby Rock.  I'll even acquiesce to the 2nd movie if you cancel this mess.  

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by BrindaWalsh

[T Summer]

This article highlights Cynthia Nixon's perspective  including  those things she said in documentary about wanting her love interest to be Che, not Naya. She addresses the public's outrage over the treatment Steve received  and she attributes that to how overwhelmed Miranda is by her attraction to Che.

...it's all about Che!

https://www.insider.com/and-just-like-that-cynthia-nixon-miranda-original-love-interest-2022-2

"In a new "AJLT" documentary, Cynthia Nixon said Miranda's love interest was meant to be Nya Wallace.

But she thought watching two straight women fall in love was not "very sexy at all." 

Nixon suggested to showrunner Michael Patrick King that Miranda fall for "butch" Che Diaz instead."

 

[newyawk]

I admit that I do want a season 2. I like enough of what's happening that I'm interested in seeing more.  Stop throwing fruit at me!

[Cosmocrush]

2 hours ago, newyawk said:

I think most people would not only have been fine with Carrie having flashback scenes with Big, she is, after all in mourning and misses him terribly, but the audience would have appreciated seeing them despite Noth's real world scandal. I think it was a mistake to remove them.

Same!  They left him in the first episode (or maybe that aired before?) but honestly I wouldn't have been been outraged to see BIG in the flashback/dream scene especially since the editing was so obvious and awkward.  The  SATC Paris was magical (to me) and seeing Carrie see Big would have been a better way to handle the finale. 

[T Summer]

3 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

Same!  They left him in the first episode (or maybe that aired before?) but honestly I wouldn't have been been outraged to see BIG in the flashback/dream scene especially since the editing was so obvious and awkward.  The  SATC Paris was magical (to me) and seeing Carrie see Big would have been a better way to handle the finale. 

 

2 hours ago, newyawk said:

I think most people would not only have been fine with Carrie having flashback scenes with Big, she is, after all in mourning and misses him terribly, but the audience would have apreciated seeing them despite Noth's real world scandal. I think it was a mistake to remove them.

 

This way it hardly seems like Carrie spent 15 years married to Big. We saw them at home together in ep 1 of this mess and in the 2 awful SATC movies, That's it. When we [well I] think of Carrie and Big it's hard to imagine them as a couple and imagine them making memories together,  celebrating holidays and anniversaries, traveling etc. The getting married was a big problematic mess in 1 and 2  had her being an insufferable witch to him over the wrong anniversary gift..the TV/ her wanting to go out...him wanting to stay home / her kissing Aiden etc.

I've always had trouble imagining them staying together long; IDK how she'd look at Big and not think this guy had to date me and every available woman in  NYC that took his fancy... even marrying one! for 10 years until he tired himself out before he  finally  settled for me.

Couldn't be me.

...but anyhow, all we got to be witness to was Carrie being sad and distraught over the loss of Big again. She can't eat, she can't sleep  and the friends have to hold her together. We've already sat through this once and it wasn't enjoyable then. Now it's just more tragic and sad with Big  having died. I just have to imagine something better  and more fun to watch could've been written for these characters.

Not showing flashbacks of them together left us  to focus on things like Carrie's  ensemble, whether she'd have been allowed to dump ashes in the Seine and did  all the ashes fit  in that purse etc..

[newyawk]

Agree to disagree, I guess.

[T Summer]

41 minutes ago, newyawk said:

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Are you saying you agree with not showing Chris Noth? If so, I totally get that too, Once it becomes known that he may have done these horrible things to what is it now, 5 women? I totally get the people behind the SATC / AJLT franchise not wanting to employ or promote him an further.

 

[Kreegah]

On 2/7/2022 at 1:31 AM, Shermie said:

But Miranda was taking courses to change her career. She was not a housewife. Although using that description to imply that would make her even more unappealing is kind of insulting.

This series messed me up! :) I have nothing againt staying at home and love good portrayal of stay-at-home-mothers on TV. I meant for Che, Mirandas work didn't matter (I should've put the "housewife" in quotemarks)
I feel that Mirandas' attitude towards her profession used to partly define her (not in bad way). But in AJLT I only saw Mirandas excitment over her new studies in first episode. Later it was replaced by obsessing over Che. Che, while claiming to love her, didn't think twice to presume she'll give up a perspective internship to come worship them in L.A.
In the end, I felt, the studies Miranda started was just one of many things she was trying to change in her life in order to not be so unhappy and misarable she claimed herself to be.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Kreegah

[newyawk]

8 hours ago, T Summer said:

Are you saying you agree with not showing Chris Noth? If so, I totally get that too, Once it becomes known that he may have done these horrible things to what is it now, 5 women? I totally get the people behind the SATC / AJLT franchise not wanting to employ or promote him an further.

 

Of course I don't agree with that. I posted explicitly to the contrary and explained why. This is why I said agree to disagree,

Edited February 7, 2022 by newyawk

[Rebecca berkowit]

12 hours ago, T Summer said:

This article highlights Cynthia Nixon's perspective  including  those things she said in documentary about wanting her love interest to be Che, not Naya. She addresses the public's outrage over the treatment Steve received  and she attributes that to how overwhelmed Miranda is by her attraction to Che.

...it's all about Che!

https://www.insider.com/and-just-like-that-cynthia-nixon-miranda-original-love-interest-2022-2

"In a new "AJLT" documentary, Cynthia Nixon said Miranda's love interest was meant to be Nya Wallace.

But she thought watching two straight women fall in love was not "very sexy at all." 

Nixon suggested to showrunner Michael Patrick King that Miranda fall for "butch" Che Diaz instead."

 

Man, that statement!  “Watching two straight women fall in love is not sexy at all.”   So much to unpack there.  Maybe it’s not sexy to her, but it could totally be sexy.  Sexiness is about the actors and the direction, isn’t it?  I don’t see why the sexual orientation of the characters would make the situation sexy or not.  Unless you mean two FEMININE characters is not sexy.  I think that’s what she really means.  Again, that’s not sexy to her, but that’s not universal.  But, moving on,  why does it even have to be sexy, or, rather, why is that the sole criterion for whether to feature it?  Could it not be dramatically interesting for the audience?  Who are comprised, in no small part, of straight women?  She’s really alienating a lot of the audience with that statement, I think.  And it’s just so self-focused. 

[bluegirl147]

35 minutes ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

Man, that statement!  “Watching two straight women fall in love is not sexy at all.”   So much to unpack there.  Maybe it’s not sexy to her, but it could totally be sexy.  Sexiness is about the actors and the direction, isn’t it?  I don’t see why the sexual orientation of the characters would make the situation sexy or not.  Unless you mean two FEMININE characters is not sexy.  I think that’s what she really means.  Again, that’s not sexy to her, but that’s not universal.  But, moving on,  why does it even have to be sexy, or, rather, why is that the sole criterion for whether to feature it?  Could it not be dramatically interesting for the audience?  Who are comprised, in no small part, of straight women?  She’s really alienating a lot of the audience with that statement, I think.  And it’s just so self-focused. 

So much all of this.  I don't think Cynthia cares about the audience.  She wanted Miranda's love interest to be someone Cynthia was attracted to.  It didn't matter how poorly the storyline was written. Didn't matter that the actress (Karen Pittman) who was hired to be Miranda's love interest was now going to have to play a new storyline which wasn't given enough attention to have viewers invested in it.   Didn't matter Miranda and Che as a couple pretty much ruined the show for a lot of viewers.  

It seems like Cynthia Nixon thinks she is an expert on certain subjects now when in reality she is only an expert on Cynthia Nixon.  We all would have been better off if she  had just wrote a memoir. 

[Rebecca berkowit]

28 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

So much all of this.  I don't think Cynthia cares about the audience.  She wanted Miranda's love interest to be someone Cynthia was attracted to.  It didn't matter how poorly the storyline was written. Didn't matter that the actress (Karen Pittman) who was hired to be Miranda's love interest was now going to have to play a new storyline which wasn't given enough attention to have viewers invested in it.   Didn't matter Miranda and Che as a couple pretty much ruined the show for a lot of viewers.  

It seems like Cynthia Nixon thinks she is an expert on certain subjects now when in reality she is only an expert on Cynthia Nixon.  We all would have been better off if she  had just wrote a memoir. 

Poor Karen Pittman!  First The Morning Show, now this!  (Apologies if you liked The Morning Show.  I think it suffered from some of the same problems this did in terms of characterization which made no sense, and random throwing around of woke buzzwords for the old folks to learn about.)

[T Summer]

1 hour ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

Man, that statement!  “Watching two straight women fall in love is not sexy at all.”   So much to unpack there.  Maybe it’s not sexy to her, but it could totally be sexy.  Sexiness is about the actors and the direction, isn’t it?  I don’t see why the sexual orientation of the characters would make the situation sexy or not.  Unless you mean two FEMININE characters is not sexy.  I think that’s what she really means.  Again, that’s not sexy to her, but that’s not universal.  But, moving on,  why does it even have to be sexy, or, rather, why is that the sole criterion for whether to feature it?  Could it not be dramatically interesting for the audience?  Who are comprised, in no small part, of straight women?  She’s really alienating a lot of the audience with that statement, I think.  And it’s just so self-focused. 

These people answering criticisms of the show are f'ed up! Miranda was watching Sara Ramirez's career, and bent on convincing MPK to make Che Miranda's love interest   in the Cynthia Nixon story.

 I'm  sick  and tired of reading that there's all this hate being directed toward Che. "Worst character on TV!" No, no one hates Che. Che may get accused of not being so funny, but no one is directing all this vitriol at Che. Most importantly none of the backlash against Miranda's story line has anything  AT ALL to do with Che Diaz's gender non binary status. I WISH THEY'D STOP F'ING SAYING THAT!

Now I'm reading  how they wanted to address what was wrong with SATC in this reboot. Ok, when they say the show was improbably white considering it was set in New York City,  I get that.  ...but now I'm reading this, that and the other was done to address the  "racism and transphobia" of the earlier show. Huh? Some one correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the team of writers worked with and in a sense under MPK, who is  gay if I'm not mistaken? 

So he and / or some member of the team are the ones who put the words "trendy by day and t***** by night" in the character Samantha's mouth. Does anyone really think Samantha hated transgender or transsexual  people? ...and the writers put the words "I'm not sure I even believe in bisexuality, I think it's just a layover on the way to gay town" in Carrie's mouth, which sounded odd  at the time the  Boy Girl Boy Girl episode aired. I'm quite sure Carrie the sex writer and SJP and anyone else alive knows that exclusively heterosexual individuals exist and exclusively homosexual individuals exist just as people who are all kinds of combinations of both and neither do. Did anyone  really think Carrie harbored some kind of hatred or bias toward anyone based on their sexuality?

They're really going to town  rewriting history.

 

[BrindaWalsh]

I don't hate Che.  I hated the treatment of the character.  For one, Che wasn't funny.  Make them a high-profile activist/brash but thought-provoking inspirational speaker type who crossed over into the entertainment word.  That works.  But this "oh my god they are so funny!!!!" schtick that then translated into an un-funny podcast and all the other things we saw Che do that were wrapped up in this "funny" wrapping paper didn't work.  Round peg, square hole.  And just the slightest tweak on WHO Che was supposed to be would have helped the character immensely and felt less forced.  They still would have done plenty of unlikeable things, i.e. yelling at Carrie on the elevator, kitchen sex with Miranda, etc. but trying to  do that and force them into this "everybody loves them because they are so funny and falls all over themselves when Che walks in a room" thing turned me off to the character even more.  I absolutely loathe when people try and tell me how I'm supposed to feel about someone, especially when that someone does some really shitty things from the start.  Call me old fashioned, but yes first impressions matter and my first impression of Che was one big "not funny, not impressed, who they heck does this person think they are, nope, don't like you."   

I think Miranda and her professor would have been more interesting.  2 straight women finding themselves suddenly attracted to each other and trying to figure out what that actually means has plenty of opportunity for exploration within this storyline, AND would have been a bit more digestible to the viewers.  

My theory is that CN has a huge crush on SR and found a way to justify getting a little play in there.  "It's not real.  It's acting.  It's Miranda, she's a character."

Edited February 7, 2022 by BrindaWalsh

[bluegirl147]

49 minutes ago, T Summer said:

They're really going to town  rewriting history.

That is a really good point. If SATC was not diverse enough who's fault was that? If the characters said things that make us cringe now (although I was cringing then.  Remember Ricky Martinville or whatever they said?) who's fault was that?  MPK and some of those writers wrote AJLT.  So what do they do?  They over correct and tell the audience if  you don't like it then you are the problem.  

[bluegirl147]

4 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

And just the slightest tweak on WHO Che was supposed to be would have helped the character immensely and felt less forced. 

They wanted Che to be too many things. A comic.  An activist.  The podcast seemed to be portrayed as a radio show with Che as a shock jock.  I found the brashness such a turn off.  They always seemed to be so in your face. But then they decided to pull them back a little bit and have them tell Miranda she needs to tell  her husband.   And then the self proclaimed non traditionalist tells Miranda they love her and they are bringing Miranda with them to LA.   So we are to believe Miranda softened Che to the point they are in a rom com?  

Nope. I don't buy it all all.  This smacks of Cynthia Nixon still in fantasyland about Sara Ramirez.  

[BrindaWalsh]

1 minute ago, bluegirl147 said:

That is a really good point. If SATC was not diverse enough who's fault was that? If the characters said things that make us cringe now (although I was cringing then.  Remember Ricky Martinville or whatever they said?) who's fault was that?  MPK and some of those writers wrote AJLT.  So what do they do?  They over correct and tell the audience if  you don't like it then you are the problem.  

The show was groundbreaking at the time.  If it it wasn't diverse enough based on today's standards of diversity and today's rightful drive and desire to do better, okay, plenty of shows that were hits in the late 90s and early 00s lacked that diversity.  That's okay, they were created during a different time.  I don't see anybody redoing the Sopranos, or Friends, or Buffy, or The OC or anything else that was popular during that timeframe.  

I went to an event in NYC after the original show wrapped, it was held downtown with the 4 ladies, MPK and DS and they talked in detail about the show and all it's successes and where they wanted to do more.  I don't remember a single person talking about how they wished they had been more diverse, on the contrary they were proud of the how they had pushed some boundries in the tv world.  Why can't it be a show that moved a needle instead of a show that missed the mark?

 

 

 

[pasdetrois]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:04 AM, bobbyjoe said:

Miranda came across as she has most of this season as a mean, small-minded jerk.  

Who apparently never had a good orgasm until she had sex with Che. I'm assuming said orgasm is the culprit behind the demented, stalky behavir.

Edited February 7, 2022 by pasdetrois