S01.E06: The Flame of Tar Valon

[paulvdb]

Quote

Moiraine faces the consequences of her actions. Mat faces the darkness in himself. Egwene faces the most powerful woman in the world.

Premiere date: December 10, 2021

[Zonk]

Well not that much happened this episode. Mostly setting up pieces. But learning a bit more about tower politics was interesting.

How did nobody notice that Mat stayed behind on an open field? Does nobody of these people have peripheral vision? Also what was he thinking? I sincerely hope next episode he comes jumping through the closing portal. I'm so annoyed with constantly splitting the party because characters are dumb.

[Kate47]

I kind of loved this episode. The interactions between Siuan and Moiraine were so layered and even though it kind of had a feel at the end of rushing toward a conclusion, I love that I couldn't tell timeline-wise where I was due to Moiraine's never changing outfit

[quarks]

I loved so much about this episode: the Hall! The various Aes Sedai sitting in judgement, so carefully arranged by color! Moraine having a better relationship with the Yellow Aes Sedai than some of the Blue Aes Sedai! Moiraine deciding to multitask with a bath and a meeting with her supervisor AND getting secret messages all at once! Siuan and Moiraine so determined to make sure that no one would find them that they use the One Power for their rendezvous! Egwene's little, wait, Nynaeve's the most powerful channeler ever? Nynaeve's whole, well, since you told me how powerful I am, not really sure why I should listen to you (and a nice follow up to Logain's whole, you know, you Aes Sedai are not exactly liked and trusted out there, are you?). The pretty horses! Moiraine interrupting Loial's well meant attempt to explain the Ways!

And the Ways. Spooky!

But, auugh, everyone.  All of you now KNOW the dagger is evil! You know it might still be affecting Mat! I know this because you said so and made jokes about it! But do ANY OF YOU STOP TO THINK, HMM, SINCE WE KNOW IT MIGHT STILL BE AFFECTING HIM, MAYBE WE SHOULD KINDA ASSUME THAT IT IS AFFECTING HIM?

Geesh, folks. 

[JonasArm]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

But, auugh, everyone.  All of you now KNOW the dagger is evil! You know it might still be affecting Mat! I know this because you said so and made jokes about it! But do ANY OF YOU STOP TO THINK, HMM, SINCE WE KNOW IT MIGHT STILL BE AFFECTING HIM, MAYBE WE SHOULD KINDA ASSUME THAT IT IS AFFECTING HIM?

Geesh, folks. 

Not sure what you are getting at. Unless you know something for having read the books, what do you want people to do?

[quarks]

26 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

Not sure what you are getting at. Unless you know something for having read the books, what do you want people to do?

Keep an eye out for any questionable behavior from Mat. Listen to everything he says. Realize that he isn't walking into the gate with you BEFORE you step into the gate.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by quarks

[JonasArm]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

Keep an eye out for any questionable behavior from Mat. Listen to everything he says. Realize that he isn't riding into the gate with you BEFORE you step into the gate.  

No one rode into the gate they were already all in front of it. Only Moraine, Rand and Nynaeve really knew about it. The former was occupied opening the gate and leading the way, the other two discovering, overcoming their own fear and making their own choice to move forward or not. And again they are not there to baby-sit Mat, ultimately he makes his own choices.

[paigow]

19 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

And again they are not there to baby-sit Mat, ultimately he makes his own choices.

Moiraine explicitly told Rand to watch Mat ALL the time.

[paigow]

The fellowship is the worst kept secret in The Tower. Why is there not a Red kill team following Moiraine to the Stargate  portal????

[paigow]

Why is the ogre going? Is Builder a literal title??? Make a new portal?

[quarks]

36 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

No one rode into the gate they were already all in front of it. Only Moraine, Rand and Nynaeve really knew about it. The former was occupied opening the gate and leading the way, the other two discovering, overcoming their own fear and making their own choice to move forward or not. And again they are not there to baby-sit Mat, ultimately he makes his own choices.

I changed "riding" to "walking" because valid point there, but -

Perrin knows about the knife as well - he joked about it when they all met up.

Since he wasn't there during the knife removal, someone must have told him. That someone could only have been one of two people - Egwene and Loial. (Perrin was asleep during Moiraine's visit.) He didn't meet up with any of the others until they reached the gate. So, for Perrin to know, either Loial or Egwene or both also know. Presumably Loial since he was at the inn, but Nynaeve or Moiraine could have said something to Egwene during the Siuan meeting. 

So it's not just Moiraine, Rand and Nynaeve. It's:

Moiraine

Lan (he was there when she was pulling black stuff out of the knife, and helping hold Mat down)

Rand (same)

Perrin (not there, but dialogue indicates someone told him)

Nynaeve (not there, but presumably demanded an explanation)

Either Loial or Egwene (also not there, but presumably got an explanation from Rand, Moiraine and/or Nynaeve.)

Which is to say, almost the entire group knows about Mat and the Evil Knife. And Rand was explicitly told to keep an eye on Mat.

So are they there to babysit Mat? No. But given that a) they don't know if Mat is the Dragon or one of the Dragons, and they need the Dragon at wherever they are going, and b) most of them do know about the evil dagger, they absolutely should have been keeping an eye on him and making sure that the entire group was coming along. And that's even leaving aside that just a couple months ago, they saw what happened to someone left behind: the Taren Ferry guy. Things didn't go well for him.

[Anduin]

I liked this a lot more than last week. While I don't have much love for politics, it's better than religious zealots. Also, portal network! Does this portal lead to a hub or nexus, or do you still need to go some way to another one?

Moraine having it off with the boss and determining her own sentence. It may sting, but banishment is better than whatever else Siuan could have dished out. Did I hear that the Aes Sedai can cut other Sedai off from the power? That it might happen to Liandrin if they learn she's got a boyfriend? Anyway, Moraine is now in useful exile.

Speaking of Liandrin, I expected her to peek as Moraine walked away. Maybe not turn at all. At least she respects some customs.

However, I take a lot of issue with Siuan being called daughter of the river. That title is taken by Goldberry. Find a new one.

You know how after LOTR came out, everyone joked that it was sponsored by the New Zealand tourism people? Let me hopefully be the first to make that joke about the Czech and Slovenian tourism people. That opening valley! Beautiful! I also really liked the rocky white hills from ep 2.

[JonasArm]

32 minutes ago, quarks said:

1 hour ago, JonasArm said:

No one rode into the gate they were already all in front of it. Only Moraine, Rand and Nynaeve really knew about it. The former was occupied opening the gate and leading the way, the other two discovering, overcoming their own fear and making their own choice to move forward or not. And again they are not there to baby-sit Mat, ultimately he makes his own choices.

I changed "riding" to "walking" because valid point there, but -

Perrin knows about the knife as well - he joked about it when they all met up.

Since he wasn't there during the knife removal, someone must have told him. That someone could only have been one of two people - Egwene and Loial. (Perrin was asleep during Moiraine's visit.) He didn't meet up with any of the others until they reached the gate. So, for Perrin to know, either Loial or Egwene or both also know. Presumably Loial since he was at the inn, but Nynaeve or Moiraine could have said something to Egwene during the Siuan meeting. 

So it's not just Moiraine, Rand and Nynaeve. It's:

Moiraine

Lan (he was there when she was pulling black stuff out of the knife, and helping hold Mat down)

Rand (same)

Perrin (not there, but dialogue indicates someone told him)

Nynaeve (not there, but presumably demanded an explanation)

Either Loial or Egwene (also not there, but presumably got an explanation from Rand, Moiraine and/or Nynaeve.)

Which is to say, almost the entire group knows about Mat and the Evil Knife. And Rand was explicitly told to keep an eye on Mat.

So are they there to babysit Mat? No. But given that a) they don't know if Mat is the Dragon or one of the Dragons, and they need the Dragon at wherever they are going, and b) most of them do know about the evil dagger, they absolutely should have been keeping an eye on him and making sure that the entire group was coming along. And that's even leaving aside that just a couple months ago, they saw what happened to someone left behind: the Taren Ferry guy. Things didn't go well for him.

You are making my point for me: only Moiraine, Rand and Nynaeve REALLY knew about it, the rest has briefly heard of it and you and some other viewers are making of it a bigger deal than those characters have any reason or time to affort.

[JonasArm]

38 minutes ago, quarks said:

they saw what happened to someone left behind: the Taren Ferry guy. Things didn't go well for him.

They did not leave him behind, he plunged directly to his death.

[thuganomics85]

Until Mat's betrayal at the end, I was all set to dub the team the new "fellowship" and compare them to the Lord of the Rings gang, with Moiraine basically Gandalf, the four youngsters as the hobbits, Nynaeve and Lan in the Aragorn and Legolas roles (not sure who is who yet with that comparison), and Loial as Gimli.  Alas, it was not be.  Thanks, Mat!

Always great seeing Sophie Okonedo and she was a great choice as Siuane a.k.a. the big boss of the Aes Sedai.  But twist!  While everyone thinks she hates Moiraine, not only are they actually working together in secret, they're even lovers as well!  The Aes Sedai might not have the ability to lie, but apparently they excel at some good old-fashioned acting!  Give them all the awards!

Interesting that outside Siuane's opening flashback, I'm pretty sure Moiraine was in every scene here.  Pretty great episode for Rosamund Pike, who has generally been good here, but hasn't had too much of a chance to really command the screen until now.

Crafty of Moiraine to have Siuane's "punishment" be banishment since the head of the Blue Aes Sedai was trying to make Moiraine stay at the White Tower, but I do wonder if Liandrin is going to attempt some kind of power play against them sooner rather than later.

At least the majority of the gang is back together and going after the Dark One, but Mat abandoning them will clearly come into play.  Hopefully he isn't the Dragon Reborn or they are going to be in trouble...

[paigow]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I do wonder if Liandrin is going to attempt some kind of power play against them sooner rather than later.

Seems like the Red Sisters have their own "oath / guidelines" to NOT be straight... Moiraine has probably already told Siuan where the dude lives as a failsafe... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, Zonk said:

Well not that much happened this episode. Mostly setting up pieces. But learning a bit more about tower politics was interesting.

How did nobody notice that Mat stayed behind on an open field? Does nobody of these people have peripheral vision? Also what was he thinking? I sincerely hope next episode he comes jumping through the closing portal. I'm so annoyed with constantly splitting the party because characters are dumb.

Mat could be feeling residual effects of the dagger and be stabbing the party in the back.

Or Mat could be selfish and have realized "I'm probably not the Dragon because I'm just me. And if I'm not the Dragon, chances are that I die if I go through there. I think I'll stay here where it's safe."

[quarks]

5 hours ago, JonasArm said:

You are making my point for me: only Moiraine, Rand and Nynaeve REALLY knew about it, the rest has briefly heard of it and you and some other viewers are making of it a bigger deal than those characters have any reason or time to affort.

Not sure why you keep putting Nynaeve in this group, since she wasn't in the room during the dagger separation. (That was Moiraine, Lan, Rand and Mat), and she didn't talk to Moiraine about it on screen. If she really knew about it, as you are saying, than Loial and Perrin really knew about it.

But moving on - let's assume that it is just Rand. Does have a reason to make an effort here? Absolutely, 100% yes. Even leaving aside that Moiraine directly told him to keep an eye on Matt and said that she didn't know if the effect had been removed, and that over the past couple of months he and Mat have been attacked multiple times, Moiraine just told them that they were heading off to fight the Dark One in the Dark One's prison and that the Dragon has to face the Dark One. And she distinctly failed to identify the Dragon. So....kinda important to make sure that every potential Dragon is coming along, right?

[Danny Franks]

And Siuan Sanche, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat arrives with a vengeance! She's such a formidable character and Sophie Okonedo is so good already. She really embodied that Aes Sedai serenity, and the subtle change in her accent from the public to the private was a nice touch. 

The cold open was cool, with little kid Siuan getting lots of fishing-related advice from her dad and the discovery that she could channel, as well as the apparent hatred of channelers in Tear.

I loved the layers of Moiraine's reaction to seeing her - at first you think it's fear over being punished, but later you realise that she's also really emotional over seeing her love after two years. The interplay between them, as Siuan had to push her but they both knew she wouldn't say anything, was really interesting to watch.

The variety of faces and fashions in the Hall of Sitters was really fun to see. Robert Jordan loved talking about clothing and the way different cultures styled themselves, and the show seems to be really embracing this. I feel like you could draw lines between most of those women and say, 'these two are from the same place, and those three are from another place.'

Moiraine calling Mat a stupid boy? Overdue. I wasn't keen on the way she healed him though. That was too easy. And it looks like Rand needs a bit of training to be useful with that sword. Maybe Lan should train him. I also really liked Egwene's proud little look when "the most powerful channeler in years" was mentioned, then her dumbstruck reaction when it was revealed to be Nynaeve.

This was definitely Rosamund's episode and it was nice seeing her in a load of one-on-one scenes with the rest of the cast, even if they were fairly short. I still want more of the Emond's Field Five, and more building of their relationships with one another and with Moiraine and Lan and Loial.

Mat changing his mind at the last second - definitely a last minute rewrite that they were forced into. It sucks, but it was unavoidable.

[Zonk]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Mat could be feeling residual effects of the dagger and be stabbing the party in the back.

Or Mat could be selfish and have realized "I'm probably not the Dragon because I'm just me. And if I'm not the Dragon, chances are that I die if I go through there. I think I'll stay here where it's safe."

Yeah that's nice. It's still annoying from a story telling perspective and doesn't explain why the other characters wouldn't have seen Mat going through the gateway with them on an open field. Especially after Moraine said to keep an eye on him this very episode. So are we to believe that she doesn't follow her own advice? That Lan just stoped listening to her? That everybody else there is a massive dumbass?

10 hours ago, JonasArm said:

No one rode into the gate they were already all in front of it. Only Moraine, Rand and Nynaeve really knew about it. The former was occupied opening the gate and leading the way, the other two discovering, overcoming their own fear and making their own choice to move forward or not. And again they are not there to baby-sit Mat, ultimately he makes his own choices.

Moraine had already opened the gate and was just standing around looking back at the group.

You also left out Lan, who probably should have a good overview of the situation.

That all aside from the fact that you have to be legally blind to not notice somebody staying behind on an open field. Mat didn't even make it up the steps. He was still 10 meters away from the portal on the grass. How do you not notice that?

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zonk

[DearEvette]

15 hours ago, quarks said:

But, auugh, everyone.  All of you now KNOW the dagger is evil! You know it might still be affecting Mat! I know this because you said so and made jokes about it! But do ANY OF YOU STOP TO THINK, HMM, SINCE WE KNOW IT MIGHT STILL BE AFFECTING HIM, MAYBE WE SHOULD KINDA ASSUME THAT IT IS AFFECTING HIM?

That damn dagger!  I remember being so aggravated while reading the books that nobody seemed to understand its effect on Mat.  Here, I was so happy that Moiraine swept in and healed that shit and told Nynaeve and Rand, finally, explicitly, that what was affecting Mat was the dagger.  Rand was super clueless and thinking Mat was getting sick and going mad from channeling, Nynaeve wasn't in Shadar Logoth so she would have no clue but I think her suspicion of all things Aes Sedai affected her judgement when it came to helping Mat, assuming her success at healing as a Wisdom would fix everything.

As far as Rand keeping an eye on Mat, once again I interpret Rand's actions based on what he has already seen.  The only manifestation of the dagger's affect on Mat was his health as far as Rand could tell.  Mat didn't really do anything bad, he just seemingly got sicker and sicker.  Moiraine told Rand 'If he touches the dagger again it will kill him."  But Lan took the dagger.  So, it isn't unreasonable to assume that Rand interpreted that to mean he was to watch Mat to make sure he wasn't trying to retrieve the dagger again or to watch him to make sure he wasn't getting sick again.

 

 

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And Siuan Sanche, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat arrives with a vengeance! She's such a formidable character and Sophie Okonedo is so good already. She really embodied that Aes Sedai serenity, and the subtle change in her accent from the public to the private was a nice touch. 

...

The variety of faces and fashions in the Hall of Sitters was really fun to see. Robert Jordan loved talking about clothing and the way different cultures styled themselves, and the show seems to be really embracing this. I feel like you could draw lines between most of those women and say, 'these two are from the same place, and those three are from another place.'

The intro of Siuane Sanche was masterful.  Sophie Okonedo exceeded my hopes for Siuane.  She was everything.  I loved he entire exchange with Logain.  And her differing expressions when she was talking with Nynaeve and Egewene  There was a point when Nynaeve was being super rude and Siuane's face when was friendly and charming to stone cold and she stood up and walked toward them -- my thought was 'Oh Nynaeve, you done done it now!' but then you could see Siuane making the decision to NOT go all Amyrlin Seat on Nynaeve but instead give her a Come to Jesus talk.  LOL.  Such wonderful acting.

Also, I agree about the fashions/faces of the Aes.  It was such a feast to look at them all, the different women -- and I loved how individual their fashions were in --some super fussy, some very simple, every type of fabric and shape.  Also, for someone who had no lines, the Master of Ceremonies Aes Sedai made an impression.

I also love all the little continuing touches that remind us The Wheel is all.  From the construction of that Amyrlin Seat tower room to the decorations on Siuan's ceremonial robes.

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Seems like the Red Sisters have their own "oath / guidelines" to NOT be straight... Moiraine has probably already told Siuan where the dude lives as a failsafe... 

Yeah, I figure within each Ajah there are Ajah specific rules and Oaths they must make to be part of that Ajah as well as secrets they keep and schemes they hatch that make their loyalty to their Ajah probably more important than their loyalty to the Aes as a whole.

Other stuff I liked:

Siuane's love nest was set up like her childhood home.

Moiraine had some great lines -

"Siuan Sanche only waits for one woman, and it's not you"

and

"If Wisdom is the title you claim, I suggest you start using some"

All the Ajahs and their spies spying on each other's movements.  And we see the efficacy of Moiraine's own spy network.

And finally, another episode directed by Salli Richardson-Whitfield

[tennisgurl]

This was a great episode for Moiraine and Rosamund Pike, and also for the wardrobe design department because oh my goodness those outfits the Aes Sedai were wearing were incredible. They and all the women wearing them were all so unique and beautiful, the costumes were lush but also detailed, they all told so much story in just the designs. 

The woman playing Siuan is already excellent, she really has that "cool and in control" vibe that she should have, but also feels very human in her interactions with Moiraine. The scene where they first saw each other is such a great scene to watch again, so much is passing between the two of then without a word. The cold open with her backstory did a good job at establishing a lot about Siuan, the fishing metaphors, how she grew up on a river, her powers at channeling. Her face is somehow really subtle and really expressive. 

Every location they show is gorgeous, you can see where all of that money went. I sometimes get annoyed by travel heavy shows, usually because they can come off as repetitive, but I love exploring this world. 

I was so glad that everyone was finally back together, after Moiraine was very conveniently exiled so that she can go off on her mission, and then things went sideways at the end. Oh Mat, that stupid evil knife really is the gift that keeps on giving. I can imagine they thought he was fine now, they took the knife, Moiraine sucked the evil out of him, he looks less like death warned over, but its not over until its really over. I am glad that Moiraine called Nynaeve out on not telling her right away that Mat was sick, but I cant exactly blame her and Rand from keeping it from her, considering what the Aes Sedai do to male channelers, which is what they thought was going on.

[paigow]

Great minds think alike...

[Which Tyler]

23 hours ago, Zonk said:

How did nobody notice that Mat stayed behind on an open field? Does nobody of these people have peripheral vision? Also what was he thinking? I sincerely hope next episode he comes jumping through the closing portal. I'm so annoyed with constantly splitting the party because characters are dumb.

Non-book spoilers

Spoiler

It's thought that Mat's actor left the show during the COVID hiatus, and didn't come back for filming the final 2 episodes, so they had to ret-con him out of the party at this point.

There's only so much can be done about that (though I'd have thought leaving him in Tar Valon to recuperate might have been more sensible - it probably depended on what footage they had, and minimising re-shoots)

 

[Zonk]

28 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

It's thought that Mat's actor left the show during the COVID hiatus, and didn't come back for filming the final 2 episodes, so they had to ret-con him out of the party at this point.

There's only so much can be done about that (though I'd have thought leaving him in Tar Valon to recuperate might have been more sensible - it probably depended on what footage they had, and minimising re-shoots)

Thanks. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that the actor left the show during a filming hiatus. That might explain this very abrupt departure. But do you have a source that he just walked out in the middle of filming? All I can find is that he won't be there for season two and everybody saying how great the actor is. Although of course in the film industry you never know if that's code for "We hate him and he will never work in anything again."

But anyway obviously they had time to reshoot some stuff. You had all the other characters screeming for him form the tunnels. And since the actor got recast for season two, with the character still being very much alive, I wonder if there wouldn't have been time to put in some scenes to explain this change and continue with the new actor. I could for example see drawing the darkness out of him changing his face. That should have meant just like two scenes to reshoot.

Of course it could be that they shot a lot of things out of order, but then it will be hard to cut Mat out of the coming up episodes anyway. I guess if those two episodes are going to be cobbled together mess worthy of Dr. Frankenstein, we know why.

[paigow]

They may as well add Khaleesi to all the titles for Siuan...

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, Zonk said:

And since the actor got recast for season two, with the character still being very much alive,...

Just like 2 Beckys on Roseanne ... Or 2 Rhodeys from Iron Man

[Zonk]

3 minutes ago, paigow said:

Just like 2 Beckys on Roseanne ... Or 2 Rhodeys from Iron Man

I really hope they are going for an in-universe explaination on this one. I mean they can literally go "a wizard did it!" and it would be in universe.

But yeah, kinda like that, apparently.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zonk

[staphdude]

Logaine summed things up nicely but unfortunately cracked in the end…however the story isn’t over yet.

Moraine is good with the Two Rivers folk but generally the  arrogance of the Aes Sedai needs breaking sooner than later. Suian’s talk of stilling is prescient.

Edited December 11, 2021 by staphdude

[Msample]

54 minutes ago, paigow said:

Just like 2 Beckys on Roseanne ... Or 2 Rhodeys from Iron Man

Or two Dario Naharis from Game of Thrones.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Msample said:

Or two Dario Naharis from Game of Thrones.

Even the first Mountain was replaced

[munchiewoman]

22 hours ago, Zonk said:

That all aside from the fact that you have to be legally blind to not notice somebody staying behind on an open field. Mat didn't even make it up the steps. He was still 10 meters away from the portal on the grass. How do you not notice that?

I don't know,  if I'm walking into the dark,  scary place that even a trained warhorse couldn't survive, on my way to fight the Dark One, I may not notice that one of the 7 other people I'm with is hanging back. 

I loved Nynaeve telling the Amyrlin to stop blowing smoke up their asses. I literally laughed out loud. I want to see more of those two.

I thought the Moiraine/Siuan story was lovely and sad...keeping their love a secret, not for any anti-lesbian nonsense but because they have devoted their lives to saving the world.

Loved Lan's, "Give her my love."

Love Alanna's sorrow as she turned her back.

This show must be a costumer's dream.  So many different nations  and garbs and hairstyles. My eyes were trying to check everyone out all at once.  Such ceremony and drama.  I loved it. 

I love Mat.  Go with them, Mat!!

Edited December 11, 2021 by munchiewoman
typo

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Zonk said:

Yeah that's nice. It's still annoying from a story telling perspective and doesn't explain why the other characters wouldn't have seen Mat going through the gateway with them on an open field. Especially after Moraine said to keep an eye on him this very episode. So are we to believe that she doesn't follow her own advice? That Lan just stoped listening to her? That everybody else there is a massive dumbass?

You asked what Mat was thinking, and I gave you a couple of possibilities. 

Here's another: "Moraine could have been tainted by the darkness that she drew from me. Why should we trust her?"

Anyway, to look at the scene where Moraine said to keep an eye on Mat, it seems to me that in context "keep an eye" meant more "watch him to make sure he doesn't try to touch the dagger again because that's addictive" or "watch him to make sure he is physically OK" rather than "watch him to make sure he doesn't try to betray us." 

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 hours ago, quarks said:

Not sure why you keep putting Nynaeve in this group, since she wasn't in the room during the dagger separation. (That was Moiraine, Lan, Rand and Mat), and she didn't talk to Moiraine about it on screen. If she really knew about it, as you are saying, than Loial and Perrin really knew about it.

But moving on - let's assume that it is just Rand. Does have a reason to make an effort here? Absolutely, 100% yes. Even leaving aside that Moiraine directly told him to keep an eye on Matt and said that she didn't know if the effect had been removed, and that over the past couple of months he and Mat have been attacked multiple times, Moiraine just told them that they were heading off to fight the Dark One in the Dark One's prison and that the Dragon has to face the Dark One. And she distinctly failed to identify the Dragon. So....kinda important to make sure that every potential Dragon is coming along, right?

Let's go back the exchange between Rand and Moiraine just so we are clear about what was said:

R: Thank you.

M: For what?

R: For helping him

M: What did you expect me to do? 

R: I saw the darkness moving over you. You took on that evil for Mat. 

M: i would do it for any of you.

R: You could just say, "You're welcome." So if Mat can't channel, then he's not the...It was just the darkness from the Shadow City all along? 

M: I don't know. He's stronger than he has any right to be. If he weren't, that dagger would have consumed him weeks ago. You have to be careful. You have to watch him. I've healed him of his connection to the dagger. But it was feeding off the darkness in him as much as he was off it. If he touches it again...he may be lost forever.

To me that reads as though Moraine believes that the dagger is no longer influencing him, but that there is a danger that Matt could relapse and go for it again. That seems very different to me from the notion that they should be watching Mat for signs of sudden but inevitable betrayal. 

 

[Which Tyler]

Yep, think of Mat like an addict. Who's just gnenthrough cold turkey. A minute ago.

The worry isn't that he's going to stab you in the back, or run away; but that he'll relapse.

 

As for recasting - yes, it happens plenty of times in TV. But I can't think of one where it happened mid-season.

We dont know when Mat1 left the show, not do we know when Mat2 was hired. We just (think we) know that Mat1 never returned to film the last 2 episodes, and that Mat2 wasn't there yet.

Changing just the last scene, and using existing shots of Mat1 was presumably the least intrusive option, ret-conning him out earlier would have required more work, and possibly pushed production far enough back to miss the Christmas release window. Simply replacing him would still have required a lot of re-shoots, AND require recasting on the hop. I'd suggest it's better to sacrifice 1 awkward scene then write around it with the right actor, than have a different awkward scene, and spend the next 5-6 seasons with the wrong actor.

[MissLucas]

Best episode so far - and it belonged to Rosamund Pike, Sophie Okonedo, the costume and the set designer. I loved all the costumes and the attention to detail: like the pattern on Liandrin's frock being lined up to match the central parting. Moraine's blue power outfit was such an inspired choice combining fashion details from various historical influences. Of all the current shows only Avasarala could match her in her fashion power strut. 

I loved the twist that Moraine and the Amyrlin Seat are secret lovers. All their scenes together were a delight and worth of a rewatch. Also great: Moraine for once getting a bit sassy with the line that the Siuan Sanche only waits for one woman (I wonder if Egwene or Nynaeve had the brains to store that for later research). Putting a bit of blackmail on Liandrin also felt good. All the scenes in the White Tower were great. The Great Hall was imposing AF and Siuan's private rooms recalling her childhood home was a fantastic touch.

 Nice to see that red tape also works: they did not forget to reimburse the ferry man's family (apparently the son survived).

Since we're doing LOTR comparisons - clearly Mat is Pippin after having been in contact with the Palantir. I had no idea about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans. I wonder why they did not opt for a simple recast.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by MissLucas

[iMonrey]

Do we ever find out what Liandrin's punishment was?

[Zonk]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

M: I don't know. He's stronger than he has any right to be. If he weren't, that dagger would have consumed him weeks ago. You have to be careful. You have to watch him. I've healed him of his connection to the dagger. But it was feeding off the darkness in him as much as he was off it. If he touches it again...he may be lost forever.

Hmmmm.....

Also again, you have to be legally blind to not see somebody staying behind on an open field.

6 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Changing just the last scene, and using existing shots of Mat1 was presumably the least intrusive option, ret-conning him out earlier would have required more work, and possibly pushed production far enough back to miss the Christmas release window. Simply replacing him would still have required a lot of re-shoots, AND require recasting on the hop. I'd suggest it's better to sacrifice 1 awkward scene then write around it with the right actor, than have a different awkward scene, and spend the next 5-6 seasons with the wrong actor.

That is assuming they filmed in order which almost never happens. Prepare for some awkward cuts and Mat being digitally painted out the next two episodes.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zonk

[Quark]

The actress playing Siuan was superb.

[Enero]

 

I was going to say I was surprised the Amrilyn had no idea what Moraine was up to being that she’s the leader of the  Aes Sedai. I was glad to see that she does know what’s up. Though I didn’t expect her and Moraine to be lovers. 

Liandrin has a man! Considering her supposed hatred for men I’m shocked. I guess there really is a thin line between love and hate. 😂 

I still don’t fully understand the purpose of the White Tower if each group does their own thing without consulting each other and are just short of sworn enemies. Also how does the Amrilyn get her seat?  Is it via her channeling power? By vote? Or both?

Why does this journey the group is commencing feels like Frodo and the Fellowship going to destroy the ring?

I cannot really blame Matt for changing his mind about going into the dark unknown. And honestly I wonder if taking him is the best idea considering he’s still recovering from being under the influence of the evil dagger, and even though he no longer has it may be susceptible to evil tendencies. That said, I’d be surprised if he actually gets left behind. I guess we’ll see though. 

Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okenodo were excellent in this episode. I have never been a fan of the former. I’ve always found her to be one note, but this role works for her. 

This was a great episode. 

 

[Humbugged]

4 hours ago, Zonk said:

Hmmmm.....

Also again, you have to be legally blind to not see somebody staying behind on an open field.

That is assuming they filmed in order which almost never happens. Prepare for some awkward cuts and Mat being digitally painted out the next two episodes.

They filmed in block of 2 . Salli Richardson filmed the last 2 as director

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

Liandrin has a man! 

He might be an Unsullied

[Zonk]

55 minutes ago, Humbugged said:

They filmed in block of 2 . Salli Richardson filmed the last 2 as director

Well that's an inefficient way to do things. Explains part of the 10 million dollars per episode, I guess.

At least it came in handy in a situation like this, where an actor just up and leaves.

[staphdude]

Silly but I miss a proper rainbow shawl.

[Ottis]

I like that the show is establishing the Aes Sedai as the power in this world. I don’t like how the AS are portrayed. The entire opening scene made the AS look more catty than wise or noble. They could have cut off the beginning and started when the “flame” asked Moiraine where she traveled. Aside from that, super slow episode. 

[Which Tyler]

Being more catty than wise or noble seems incredibly realistic for those at the top of a powerful organisation - especially a political one.

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Being more catty than wise or noble seems incredibly realistic for those at the top of a powerful organisation - especially a political one.

My first instinct was the laugh reaction. On the face of it, it is pretty funny. But there's a strong element of truth to it. There's no laugh/cry reaction.

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, Quark said:

The actress playing Siuan was superb.

She immediately got what the Amyrlin Seat is supposed to be - a beacon of serenity and authority amongst a lot of other very powerful women who don't necessarily like one another - but didn't fall into the trap of being one-note and monotone. She showed emotion at appropriate times, she was able to be harsh and empathetic.

I loved how she stopped Egwene and Nynaeve with a single finger - even Nynaeve, who openly sneers at Aes Sedai and had snarked at Siuan, instantly obeyed.

15 hours ago, Enero said:

 Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okenodo were excellent in this episode. I have never been a fan of the former. I’ve always found her to be one note, but this role works for her. 

I loved the scene with her and Moiraine in their love nest. It was so well set up, with the mentions of Siuan not being a friend to Moiraine, then her very harsh treatment of her in the Hall of Sitters. And then we see her with her guard completely down, complaining about her girlfriend calling her "Mother" and just revelling in the fact that they're together again. Then there was Moiraine's open happiness and the way you could see her just unburdening all her doubts and fears over the Dragon Reborn in a way we've not even seen her do with Lan.

[Haleth]

Wow, this episode was gorgeous!  The costumes of the Aes Sedai, the throne, the elaborate carvings in the tower.  Did you notice the beautiful floor tiles?  Lots of attention to detail on this set.  The tension between Moraine and Siuan in the exile scene was heartwrenching.  Superb acting by both.

I suppose it's too much to ask that Pippin Mat gets left behind since he is such a pain in the ass.  But I also suppose the fellowship needs someone of questionable courage and integrity, or overly sensitive to eeeevil forces, to keep their journey interesting.  There has to be some character that endangers them all but then rises to the occasion and saves everyone.  (I guess that would make Mat Boromir, not Pippin.)

Ugh for the mess about recasting Mat.  Is that going to be a problem for the story, that he didn't travel with them?  (Not asking for spoilers, just wondering how it will work out.)  I think we'll be expected to handwave that the character looks different in season 2.

On 12/10/2021 at 11:11 AM, Danny Franks said:

I also really liked Egwene's proud little look when "the most powerful channeler in years" was mentioned, then her dumbstruck reaction when it was revealed to be Nynaeve.

That was perfect.  She needed to be taken down a peg.

On 12/10/2021 at 2:25 AM, Anduin said:

However, I take a lot of issue with Siuan being called daughter of the river. That title is taken by Goldberry. Find a new one.

Omigosh, Tom Bombadil is the dragon!

21 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Of all the current shows only Avasarala could match her in her fashion power strut. 

It may be close but no one matches Avasarala in fabulousness.  It may have something to do with her gravelly voice and potty mouth.

[ElizaD]

7 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ugh for the mess about recasting Mat.  Is that going to be a problem for the story, that he didn't travel with them?  (Not asking for spoilers, just wondering how it will work out.)  I think we'll be expected to handwave that the character looks different in season 2.

If something as huge as this had to happen, this was the second best possible timing for it (the best, of course, would have been after they'd gotten to complete season 1 as initially planned). I expect there was some frantic rewriting during the covid break in filming. Hopefully they were able to give his episode 7-8 character interaction screentime/any possible battle assistance moments to others relatively easily. When season 2 begins, I expect Mat will be feeling guilty about abandoning the others while they will be angry but blame this on the dagger's evil influence. IMO, Mat #1 was clearly the best of the younger cast so I'm very disappointed he was the actor who couldn't continue the show for some reason.