S08.E03: Armageddon, Part 3

[Trini]

Barry meets Black Lightning (guest star Cress Williams) at the Hall of Justice after things take a dire turn with Despero (guest star Tony Curran). Iris suspects something is off with Despero's vision of the future so she seeks help from a powerful ally.

Chris Peppe directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen.

Airdate: 11/30/2021

[scarynikki12]

The Injustice Protocols means Jefferson is to take Barry's powers. So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara, Batwoman, or any of the non-powered characters?

Assuming this doesn't turn out to be a coma dream or hallucination, then Markus is getting what he wants since Barry's actively pursuing the removal of his powers. Just relax on the couch dude.

Glad Iris is investigating. I appreciate Cecile's position but there's nothing wrong with getting more answers even if Joe remains dead. The way she was acting in that scene makes me wonder if she's being controlled because that had a touch of villainy.

Ok now Cecile is wearing pleather pants and making deals with bad guys. She's definitely on the villain's path.

The sparkly dust Iris keeps seeing would be cool nail polish.

Markus turns on the particle accelerator and mind controls everyone at Star Labs yet he still thinks he's the hero of this story? Delusion is strong with this one.

Oh, I see, Cecile merely flirted with villainy so she could have her "I AM NOT ALONE" moment.

Jefferson is talking sense to Barry and, while it's annoying it took this long, I'm thrilled. Of course Barry doesn't want to consider that simply believing the obvious bad guy was the wrong move.

Dammit, Barry STOP ATTACKING JEFFERSON!

You call it Injustice because it's unlikely that we'll ever get a live action Injustice movie or series and the Arrowverse wanted to incorporate it one way or another.

Jefferson in teacher mode is the best Jefferson.

Markus you bastard you attacked Jefferson! Kick his ass Jeff!

It's future time! Central City 2031 still looks pretty good especially compared to what Star City's future was before Crisis.

Ryan and Alex are present at Iris' wedding to, I'm assuming, Thawne. If this isn't proof that your mind's being messed with, Barry, then you're hopeless.

[Terrafamilia]

What Barry needed all episode

[Primal Slayer]

From the beginning I thought that Cecile wasnt really Cecile or this wasnt a real world so she was supposed to be out of character.....but it doesnt look that way? Her losing it over any mention of Joe and that she is the only one grieving or that knew him...like girl...I know he was your husband. I know you two allegedly have a kid together (we havent seen the thing since I cant even remember when) but Iris is his daughter. She been in his life for 30+ years. You can listen to her. And she knows Barry better than almost anyone? There's Caitlin, Cisco, Iris...

That entire scene...Cecile was played way to over the top and Iris was played way to mild.

Which...of course I am not surprised because The Flash will always be The Flash and they will do everything to ensure a certain 2 actresses never really to have to interact with one another but I still cant believe that Caitlin would choose Team Cecile over Team Iris in this. Especially after everything they've encountered. 

Barry was just downright annoying in this episode and acted like a child. maybe it is better that he's just killed? All this Injustice talk and it was never even earned. Sorry Bare but....if you go bad, they could stop you if they wanted. 

I like how all the people we know look EXACTLY the same in the future...except Chester..with long locs (very bad wig)

20 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

The Injustice Protocols means Jefferson is to take Barry's powers. So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara, Batwoman, or any of the non-powered characters?.

I mean...the non-powered people are so dangerous that if they went evil the world wouldnt survive (lol)....so death? But no, I guess they have some special handcuffs or jail?

[cambridgeguy]

10 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

The Injustice Protocols means Jefferson is to take Barry's powers. So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara, Batwoman, or any of the non-powered characters?

Have one of the Kryptonians hit them really hard or J'onn use his telepathy to shut them down?  No need to over complicate it unless the Justice League loves dramatic plans.

Maybe Barry will finally learn that just letting Thawne run off is a bad idea.  Bet you wish you hadn't smugly taunted him at the end of last season, huh?  And now that Jefferson zapped away some of your speed maybe you aren't faster than him anymore.

 

[bettername2come]

"Because you're the best of us." Excuse you, Jefferson, Clark Kent is the best of you. Don't go around contradicting John Diggle's dramatic speeches, he's been doing this longer than you. 

Aw, a lightning themed hero said "Run, Barry, Run." I enjoy the dynamic between Jefferson and Barry. Like how Jefferson ticks all the boxes for what Barry wants and needs in a mentor after all his mentors have died - authoritative Black father figure, more experienced superhero, guy with a lightning bolt on his chest. And when Jefferson said "Don't bring my family into this" I got this idea that a full-fledged Pierces vs. West-Allen family battle would be EPIC. I've seen like 3 episodes of Black Lightning, but I really do like Jefferson. And Cress Williams but I say that about most people who've been on Veronica Mars. 

I liked Cecile and what's her name's dynamic as well. If she hadn't tried to turn Flash in, I'd say they should keep doing this and she could be her Captain Cold reluctant frienemy type. 

I saw Chyler Leigh's name in the credits, but didn't expect that to be how she cameoed and completely missed Osric Chau's name. Ok, did Thawne pull a Lex Luthor and convince everyone he's a good guy? Or some new iteration of Wells? Has Iris brainwashed with some weird hypno engagement ring? Why does this evil plan involve killing Joe?

I have so many comments about Future Chester's hair. None of them are kind. 

12 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara

Well, Sara's now pretty unkillable, so probably invoke Supergirl and J'onn J'onzz for whatever alien-themed tactics would be needed to stop her. And anyone else - just throw 'em on Lian Yu for a while, that'll do the trick.  

[shantown]

Oh come ON.

I really thought we had gotten rid of Thawne/TC at least until the series finale. But nope. What an incredibly unwelcome and underwhelming villain. Why couldn't Forehead Eye just be the big bad of Armageddon? Even the non-twist of "The guy claiming to be from the future who needs to kill you before you go bad, but nothing was wrong until he showed up, so maybe he's actually bad? Oop, turned out he is bad!" would be better than Thawne.

Anyway, everyone has been and continues to be incredibly dumb, besides Iris and Allegra who had enough brains to say "Maybe this angry guy trying to kill Barry is actually wrong? And there are WAY too many coincidences?" and try to figure out what's going on. Everyone else was happy to sit in the garage and be like "Yep, no coincidences here." Incredibly annoyed by Caitlin and annoyed by DP in real life partially causing these character decisions that make no sense. Incredibly annoyed at Barry for not questioning any of what is happening and just being like "nope, gotta get rid of my powers, no other way!" Annoyed that Ray just went MIA even though the bad guy was still around.

I'll stick around through the end of this Armageddon event but it has not inspired me at all to continue watching or go back and watch the episodes I skipped last year.

[Lantern7]

Goddammit. Why does it ALWAYS come back to Thawne?!?

Despero continues to be an asshole, Cecile manages to get her eyes wider open than ever before, and Jefferson tries to get through to Barry. Compared to the mountains of shit Jefferson had to cope with in Freeland for the past four years, taming a mentally unstable superhero has to feel less daunting. Also, us viewers get reminded that Barry was adopted by a black father. After COIE, I figured that the shows would pair off for "events," and we'd get Flash and Black Lightning because of that. We'll have to settle for Jefferson filling in for Joe. I'm hoping Joe is alive at the end. "That guy talked you down? I don't think I could've done it better myself. Of course, I wouldn't have worn that. Skintight costumes look good for you and occasionally my baby girl, but not on me!"

Hey, the Top returns! And she almost gets killed by Despero! Is it bad to think she deserved it for trying to turn in Barry? Honestly, I thought she was bonding with Cecile.

It feels a bit cheap to have three names in the "Guest Starring" credits, only for them to appear in the final minute. Helluva twist, though. On bright side to that is that it allowed Cress to shine. And I can't say it enough: Jefferson got emotionally dragged through most of his series' run. It was good to see him get a W . . . or he would have if Despero hadn't popped up at the worst time.

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

The Injustice Protocols means Jefferson is to take Barry's powers. So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara, Batwoman, or any of the non-powered characters?

My best guess: Sara and Kate made an agreement that if one of them went off the rails, the other heroine could use lethal force. Since Kate is off in the cornfield and Sara travels through time, a Protocol between them is now redundant. I'm wondering if it would apply to Ryan, since he has no powers or weapons now.

ETA: I mentally groaned when I hit the Black Lightning forum and saw a pic of Dion. "NO! WE'RE DONE WITH THE DAMN FORCES!!!!" Also . . .

1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

What Barry needed all episode

"SNAP OUTTA IT!" For anyone not versed in Cher or Nic Cage when he wasn't a lunatic, that's from Moonstruck. Great movie. Cher and Olympia Dukakis won Oscars for their roles.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Lantern7

[Oreo2234]

I have a hard time believing Alex would still have that distinctive hair style 10 years from now but its better than putting a terrible CW wig on her. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Oreo2234

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, Oreo2234 said:

I have a hard time believing Alex would still have that distinctive hair style 10 years from now but its better than putting a terrible CW wig on her. 

Sadly, Chester didn't escape that fate.

[Trini]

Great twist at the end; loved Jefferson and Iris figuring things out. But there was also a bunch of stuff that sucked, so let me go from bad to good:

For the life of me, I do not understand this showrunner's/writers room's obsession with Cecile and her ever-changing-according-to-the-plot powers. This subplot was ridiculous and useless (Really? Both B-Team Flash and Despero couldn't find Barry at his own facility??), and Cecile was really off-putting yelling at people and teaming up with her meta-criminal bestie. And there was only so much of Nicolet's overacting I could take, so I fastforwarded after Chester built Cerebro from spare parts.

I hate to say it, but Candice seemed to be sleepwalking through Iris' plot. I don't know what was up, but she's normally better than this; but she was barely giving anything. Not one tear for her father's death?

[The vibe I'm getting is that JLM must have negotiated for less episodes this season, and Wallace came up with this plot because "if we can't see him, he might as well be dead!" sigh ]

Dang - my boy Chester got a case of Bad CW Wig. Sorry, man.

Also, the actor who plays Chillblaine was in the guest credits, but he didn't appear -- so there was going to be a D-plot too??

So it was disappointing she only had one Team Flash member support her, but I did like Iris' plot of figuring out what was up with Barry and Joe's death. We love an investigator seeking the truth! But again, Candice/Iris was fairly unemotional throughout, which was weird. Convenient Deon was convenient, but I didn't mind seeing him again.

Barry and Jefferson was probably the best part of the episode; although, yes, Barry was overreacting a bit. He should have at least tried to find out what was happening to him before taking the drastic step of depowering himself.

But still I liked seeing Jefferson/Black Lightning again, playing the mentor and tough love roles. I appreciated the references to Black Lightning characters and events. I did not expect him and Barry to be fighting each other, but it gave us some nice action/VFX scenes! BL throwing Flash's lightning back at him? Yaaasss!

And it was just cool to learn that there's some League stuff going on even if we don't see it. (Jefferson mentioned "Faust" - I guess I'll look that up later.)

The most interesting development though was seeing Thawne successfully take over Barry's life and steal Iris!!

A story from the comics; but within the show Thawne has admitted he wanted to be The Flash. This could be some good drama; but there's only two more episodes left, and I don't trust the writers to stick the landing. I wish they'd let Matt Letscher have the Reverse Flash/Thawne role again, but they love Cavanagh too much.

[dmeets]

Pretty much everyone on Team Flash’s acting so far this arc has felt off. I’m hoping it’s intentional to show how much the timeline has been screwed with, but I kind of sense everyone is getting bored at this point. Well except for Cecile, who’s way OTT.

I’m stunned nobody blurted out how Cecile leveled up. Maybe the “level up” writer was locked out of the room this time.

Gee, sure is a good thing Eddie killed himself to end his bloodline and prevent Eobard from ever existing. Well except for the ten times he’s returned since then. 

10 years and nobody’s aged a day. Anti-aging creams must really level up sometime this decade. Or maybe Thawne cured aging and that’s why everyone is so enchanted by him. Though I’m curious why he felt inclined to include Alex and the Ryans.

[Sweet Tooth]

Okay, what the heck is going on with Cecile? I mean, she wasn't just chewing the scenery, she was gnawing on it and spitting it out. I don't mind a bit of good cheese overacting, like for instance Despero is doing. But she's telling Joe's daughter, "HE WAS THE FATHER OF MY CHILD!!!!!!!" And Iris and I together go, "Ex-ca-USE me?"

It was so far over the top, that it took me right out of the scene. I really do hope this is supposed to be some kind of clue that it's not really her, or it's some freaky timey-wimey stuff going on, because there were too many scenes of her completely losing it for me to take her seriously.

Indeed, it seems Cecile's hysteria has leveled up.

[Jediknight]

8 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The Injustice Protocols means Jefferson is to take Barry's powers. So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara,

Barry: "Sara, Behrad and Nate have assumed control of the Waverider and the Legends in your absence."
Sara: "Oh crap.  Better take back control."
*Sara leaves*
Barry: "Told you it would work."

7 hours ago, Oreo2234 said:

I have a hard time believing Alex would still have that distinctive hair style 10 years from now but its better than putting a terrible CW wig on her. 

After the Supernatural finale every single actor made a deal with CW to never have to wear a wig as bad as Sam's.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Barry and Jefferson was probably the best part of the episode; although, yes, Barry was overreacting a bit. He should have at least tried to find out what was happening to him before taking the drastic step of depowering himself.

Especially since it's supposed to be 10 years before he goes nuts.  I guess all of those people he saves between the present day and 2031 don't really matter.  And once again no one mentions how Nora and Bart being happy kids contradicts this horrible future.

Fun fact in the final scene - everyone else has a glass but Allegra is just holding the bottle.  Maybe she develops a drinking problem? 

[tennisgurl]

I kept waiting to find out that Cecile was actually a Despero construct or something, but I guess she just decided she desperately needed to chew some scenery this week. What the hell direction was she geting? She looked like her eyes were about to pop out of her skull, and she has a lot of damn nerve to act like she's the only person who's allowed to be upset about Joe being hit by a damn train. He's the father of your child? Iris is his actual child! She needs to seriously take a step back, especially as Joe possibly being alive is perfectly reasonable considering everything that is always going down. No wonder Chester freaked out a bit when he mentioned death in front of Cecile a few episodes ago, he didn't want his face to be eaten off by overdramatic overacting at any mention of Joe. I wish they had more focused on Cecile wanting to help Barry with his apparent mental problems like he helped her, which they mentioned but never really went into. 

Nice to see Iris investigating, although I thought her subplot was a bit meh considering everything going on. She seems remarkably chill about her dad, who died in a horrific accident not too long ago, possibly being alive and her husband possibly losing his mind. 

The best part of the episode was definitely Jefferson and Barry, I can even cut Barry a bit of slack for majorly overreacting and trying to give up his powers, he did just find out that his dad is dead. Jefferson was exactly the person he needed right then, being very empathetic to what Barry is going through but also up to give him some real talk/tough love. I love when Jefferson gets into teacher mode and I really liked the references to Black Lightning, I really miss that show. Barry and Jefferson are a great combination, I love their friendship even if we have only gotten to see it a few times. Although, did I imagine it or did Jefferson say he wanted to get home to Atlanta? Did the writers forget that Jefferson lives in Freeland, but the show is shot in Atlanta? 

Of course Thawne is behind this, he's behind freaking everything. Letting him run off isn't looking like such a good idea now isn't Barry? Can you just run this asshole through with lightning now and get it over with? He has somehow now managed to mess with the timeline so he looks like the hero, is even married to Iris, and Barry I guess is the bad guy now? This does seem very on brand for him, he's been pretty open about how envious he is of Barry getting to be the hero, so at least this is consistent. This is all very bad and all but I think we can agree that the most terrible thing about this future is Chester's awful wig. Yikes. 

I know that they have to take COVID protocols into consideration with this crossover, but its been pretty underwhelming so far. At least next week has more characters so it could be a bit more interesting. 

[Diapason Untuned]

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Especially since it's supposed to be 10 years before he goes nuts.  I guess all of those people he saves between the present day and 2031 don't really matter.  And once again no one mentions how Nora and Bart being happy kids contradicts this horrible future.

It would have made more sense if they had brought up Savitar, since that would explain Barry's fear of becoming evil and how the future had changed from what it was supposed to be, since that had happened before.

[Twilight Man]

23 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

So what's the plan if they get invoked for Sara, Batwoman, or any of the non-powered characters?

From Justice League:   Doom

Superman: With all that talk about unchecked power, you are so arrogant that you didn't bother to come up with a plan to stop yourself?

Batman: [after a pause] I do have a plan! It's called the Justice League.

[Trini]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course Thawne is behind this, he's behind freaking everything. Letting him run off isn't looking like such a good idea now isn't Barry?

You know, I was thinking the whole last scene would have been an awesome reveal ... if they hadn't brought back Eobard/RF already the past few times (and kept Cavanagh's appearance a secret). Imagine if we hadn't seen RF since the Season 5 finale, and he shows up here just completely winning. But no, we just saw him in the Season 7 finale.
 

21 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

It feels a bit cheap to have three names in the "Guest Starring" credits, only for them to appear in the final minute. Helluva twist, though.

Completely misleading. They could have left the names off and have the end scene be a bigger surprise.

 

22 hours ago, bettername2come said:

And when Jefferson said "Don't bring my family into this" I got this idea that a full-fledged Pierces vs. West-Allen family battle would be EPIC.

We were robbed of this crossover!!  😭 😭 😭

[Cthulhudrew]

So many great comments here this week. My faves:

22 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

...Cecile manages to get her eyes wider open than ever before...

😄

Heehee, so true. She's like a Pixar character.

18 hours ago, Trini said:

...BL throwing Flash's lightning back at him? Yaaasss!

Yeah- this was a great moment, but so, soooo stupid of Barry. "And I've got a tray of ice cubes just waiting to throw at Killer Frost if she shows her face around here!"

18 hours ago, dmeets said:

I’m stunned nobody blurted out how Cecile leveled up. Maybe the “level up” writer was locked out of the room this time.

Two demerits for you for using the "L" word.  😄

[cambridgeguy]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Completely misleading. They could have left the names off and have the end scene be a bigger surprise.

A random assortment of Arrowverse heroes from other shows popping up to glare at Barry isn't supposed to be the big cliffhanger (let's hope they weren't paid by the line, since Alex and Ryan Choi said nothing while Ryan Wilder had one sentence).  Their appearance isn't supposed to be the big surprise, it's Thawne (although not really, since it's always Thawne) and he wasn't credited in the opening. 

Plus the bigger question mark is the lack of Caitlin, Wally, and Jenna.  You'd think her siblings would be at her engagement party.

[thuganomics85]

Surprise, surprise: it's Eobard Thawne all along!  I know Barry, Team Flash, and the show are massive sticklers about the whole "We can't kill!" thing, but they really would be doing themselves and the entire world a favor by breaking that oath when it comes to this guy.  Or do they like the massive headaches that happen when dealing with Reverse Flash...

Unless she is purposely being directed this way, I'm definitely of the opinion that Danielle Nicolet is a good actress (really), but needs a director who will rein her in, because when she goes broad, she really, really goes broad.  So much scenery chewing, eye-bugging, and over-the-topness here, but none of it in a good way.  To be fair, it really doesn't help that the rest of the cast; especially Candice Patton; seem to be really underplaying it instead, so it's just jarring seeing her all maniac and half-crazed, while everyone else seems to be almost shrugging and saying "Meh" when saying their lines.  I have no idea what is going on right now with the generally talented cast.  Only ones out of the main cast that seem to be working for me right now are Grant Gustin (and even he's been better) and Tony Curran actually being campy in the right kind of way.

So, it looks like Joe is really dead (for now), but it was all part of Eobard's plan, so I suspect it will all be reversed once this whole arc is put to rest.

Of all the Force Kids (ugh) they chose to bring back, it just has to be the one I could care less about.

Barry and Jefferson's scenes were some of my favorites in their previous crossover, so I was glad to see more of it here.  I like how Grant and Cress Williams play off one another.  Not surprised that Jefferson was able to get through to Barry at the end, but he is good at that stuff.  But while his pep talks might be the best, he still gets some bonus points for that sweet "Throw Barry's lightning back at him" move he did!

While totally on the nose, I did like how they brought back Barry's relationship with Oliver into the fold as well.

So, Barry is now in 2031 and trying to figure out what in the hell happened.  And it looks like not only is Eobard somehow married to Iris, but he's turned Team Flash, Alex, Ryan, and Ryan Choi (!) against Barry with whatever he has done.  Yay?

[tricknasty]

Barry and Black Lightning is my OTP.  Iris+Eobard Thawne = Ewww! They never showed any romantic chemistry before. Thawne is the most petty villain ever, since he's not happy with taking over Barry's life, but taking Iris too?!?

[adora721]

On 12/3/2021 at 12:09 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I know Barry, Team Flash, and the show are massive sticklers about the whole "We can't kill!" thing, but they really would be doing themselves and the entire world a favor by breaking that oath when it comes to this guy. 

Technically, there's no oath because Killer Frost helped to murder HR Wells, which makes her a murderer in the eyes of the law, and she's still free after being harbored from justice for three years before her so-called 2-week stint in Iron Heights. It's also ironic that the only timeline in which Eobard was imprisoned is the one in which Barry had been lost in Crisis in season 5. Therefore, it seems Barry is the only idiot who keeps letting criminals like KF and Thawne get away with crimes.

There's something doubly disturbing about that. One, Barry is a police officer who has sworn to uphold the law and yet he keeps letting criminals go for no good reason. Second, he's also a hero sworn to execute justice, but it's unjust to let criminals off the hook because they are a "friend" or because they are your nemesis. Any crimes that Eobard commits are essentially partially Barry's fault because he had the chance to imprison him, no need to kill, but Barry refuses to do that. None of this is heroic or in keeping with the law. At this point, Barry Allen is an accessory to some of these crimes, too.

[ursula]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:30 AM, tricknasty said:

Barry and Black Lightning is my OTP.  Iris+Eobard Thawne = Ewww! They never showed any romantic chemistry before. Thawne is the most petty villain ever, since he's not happy with taking over Barry's life, but taking Iris too?!?

That was so petty that I had to respect it.