Speculation for Hawkeye and The Marvel Universe

[formerlyfreedom]

The spot to speculate on what may happen to Hawkeye, or on Hawkeye, or other characters in the Marvel Universe goes here. Please use spoiler tags for any actual spoilers in here, although those should be rare. Thank you!

[WildPlum]

I'd like to see a Young Avengers series based on Allen Heinberg's first series, but I suspect that it'd be difficult to fit in to the current Marvel Universe - plus Tommy and Billy may already be "spoken for", along with the Scarlet Witch, in the new Dr Strange. I think Clint Barton as Hawkeye is done in the Marvel Universe, unless the character is recast, simply because of aging out. Sort of the problem with comics, in the comics Clint Barton has been mid-20s to mid-30s for six or seven decades now.

Edited November 22, 2021 by WildPlum
Teddy/Tommy

[JustHereForFood]

I think that's the plan, to introduce them separately in all these shows and then put them together.

[arc]

I sat up straighter when the black market auctioneer (?) talked about Ronin opening up a power vacuum in organized crime, cause that sounded to me like a way to introduce Wilson Fisk.

[Humbugged]

On 11/23/2021 at 4:38 PM, JustHereForFood said:

I think that's the plan, to introduce them separately in all these shows and then put them together.

Hence Yelena is due to turn up ,and Hailee and Flo get on great going by Hailee's bit in Cosmo about them - no suprise them as Hailee is great friends with her brother

[Kel Varnsen]

My big speculation is that Kate's dad isn't dead. Just based on the fact that we never saw a body. Plus the fake your own death when you are in financial trouble isn't anything new.

[Abra]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

My big speculation is that Kate's dad isn't dead. Just based on the fact that we never saw a body. Plus the fake your own death when you are in financial trouble isn't anything new.

I suspect he's not dead, although it wouldn't surprise me if he is, but I would be very surprised if we don't see him again. But I base that entirely on him being played by Brian d'Arcy James.

[swanpride]

Above all the mother is shady. Extremely shady. 

And I am sure that the fact that she leads a security firm will play a role down the line. 

[johntfs]

I'm hoping we get some into how Hawkeye was as Ronin.  I mean, based on what I saw, him being Ronin wasn't about making the world a better place (by removing its worst elements) or even punishing criminals.  Hawkeye went on a five-year long mass-murder spree to "correct" Thanos's mistake of dusting people like his wife and children (and friends) instead of removing criminals, slimeballs and possibly just selfish assholes.

I want to see Clint come to grips with that.  As is we have Clint going from Archery Dad to psychotic mass murderer and than back to Archery Dad.

[paigow]

Yelena will see Maya trying to kill Barton and intervenes because SHE wants the kill...

Edited December 1, 2021 by paigow

[Morrigan2575]

I'm probably wrong but, my spec is that Yelena isn't sent to kill Clint but recruit him to Val's new team. I think we'll either get 2 Hawkeyes (like in the Jeff Lemire run) or Kate becomes Hawkeye and, Clint goes back to Ronin to atone.

[Sakura12]

It would be interesting to see Yelena and Maya fighting over who gets to kill Hawkeye. Ronin killed Maya's father, while Yelena thinks Clint killed Nat. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Unless Fisk got snapped, there is no plausible reason for Barton leaving him alive.

Speculation: Fisk <i>was</i> Snapped, even if it was Barton's intention to kill him. Not just to decimate the Tracksuit Mafia, but to do away with Kingpin too. He tells Kate in the new episode that the tracksuit guys were the equivalent of middle management, which would include Maya's father. If Fisk fell victim to Thanos' plan, it would mean he wasn't around during those five years, contributing to the power vacuum mentioned in the first episode when the auction was taking place. Natasha's 'reclaiming' Hawkeye, pulling him away from his rampage, both killed Ronin and left Fisk untouched once he'd gotten Blipped back into existence. It's a theory, anyway.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm probably wrong but, my spec is that Yelena isn't sent to kill Clint but recruit him to Val's new team.

Valentina handles recruiting herself - e.g. Walker - so delegating it to someone else that now has more reason to kill than recruit is counter-productive...

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Speculation: Fisk <i>was</i> Snapped, even if it was Barton's intention to kill him. Not just to decimate the Tracksuit Mafia, but to do away with Kingpin too. He tells Kate in the new episode that the tracksuit guys were the equivalent of middle management, which would include Maya's father. If Fisk fell victim to Thanos' plan, it would mean he wasn't around during those five years, contributing to the power vacuum mentioned in the first episode when the auction was taking place. Natasha's 'reclaiming' Hawkeye, pulling him away from his rampage, both killed Ronin and left Fisk untouched once he'd gotten Blipped back into existence. It's a theory, anyway.

I don't think Fisk was Snapped.  I think it's more likely that Fisk was quietly/anonymously feeding Clint/Ronin intel that led Clint to kill Fisk's competitors and/or people he saw as internal threats to his power.

I mean Maya/Echo is going to have her own show after that.  Presumably it's not going to be "The continuing adventures of the Tracksuit Mafia" with Maya as the boss of a criminal gang.  Figure one thing that would break her out of that life would be to learn that Uncle Kingpin gave Clint the information that led him to kill her further.  In which case Clint wasn't really the one who killed her father so much as he was the weapon used by the real killer, Uncle Kingpin.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I don't think Fisk was Snapped.  I think it's more likely that Fisk was quietly/anonymously feeding Clint/Ronin intel that led Clint to kill Fisk's competitors and/or people he saw as internal threats to his power.

While Barton was working his way up the food chain of - e.g. The Gambino Family - none of those guys said "Fisk runs this town" before getting decapitated???

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

In which case Clint wasn't really the one who killed her father so much as he was the weapon used by the real killer, Uncle Kingpin.

Unless it turns out that Clint was completely mind-controlled like he was previously by Loki, then he was still absolutely responsible for his actions, I don't care who may have given him the intel. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Unless it turns out that Clint was completely mind-controlled like he was previously by Loki, then he was still absolutely responsible for his actions, I don't care who may have given him the intel. 

How far does that logic stretch, though? I was/am under the impression that, as Ronin, Clint was burning a path through the criminal underworld, not going after nuns and Boy Scouts. I said in the episode thread that even Maya's dad, who seemed like a nice guy that only wanted to do the best he could for his daughter, was a criminal who had a previously established relationship with his equally criminal employer. Since he was only in the episode at the beginning, it's hard to say what or how much he was into, but it's a weird standard to set when you start advocating for the bad guys to not be killed.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I was/am under the impression that, as Ronin, Clint was burning a path through the criminal underworld, not going after nuns and Boy Scouts.

So it's justified if he only murders bad people? By who's standard? Under what circumstances? What about due process? What about a mistake?  And what kinds of offenses automatically warrant a death sentence? 

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

 And what kinds of offenses automatically warrant a death sentence? 

Murder, Human Trafficking, Ending EVERY sentence with Bro...

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, paigow said:

Murder, Human Trafficking, Ending EVERY sentence with Bro...

Fair enough, but he's still responsible for acting as judge, jury and executioner. That choice is on him (as things stand right now). Fisk potentially giving him a hit list doesn't absolve him of his culpability. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Wynterwolf

[paigow]

SHIELD was the same. Dreykov never got a trial but the kill order was approved.

Edited December 7, 2021 by paigow

[cambridgeguy]

11 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Since he was only in the episode at the beginning, it's hard to say what or how much he was into, but it's a weird standard to set when you start advocating for the bad guys to not be killed.

Yeah, what kind of hero does that?  You know, aside from Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc.  Someone should tell them the Punisher had it right all along and to stop holding back. 

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Unless it turns out that Clint was completely mind-controlled like he was previously by Loki, then he was still absolutely responsible for his actions, I don't care who may have given him the intel. 

Legally/morally, sure.  My point was that if Fisk is the one who "aimed" Ronin at Maya's Dad (like an arrow), that would explain why Echo would be going after Kingpin and other criminals instead of constantly going after Clint like Wile E. Coyote after Road-runner.

Edited December 3, 2021 by johntfs

[WildPlum]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:13 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Yeah, what kind of hero does that?  You know, aside from Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc.  Someone should tell them the Punisher had it right all along and to stop holding back. 

That has been the big change in comics the last 20 years or so, for Marvel, anyway. It used to be that heroes never killed directly but somewhere along the way the editors/writers decided that should change in the comics and the current crop of Marvel movies/TV shows  has that new stance.

That said, I don't like it and I thought the Ronin story arc was badly thought out and handled. Not that I was in favor of the whole "snap" thing, either.

[johntfs]

12 hours ago, WildPlum said:

That has been the big change in comics the last 20 years or so, for Marvel, anyway. It used to be that heroes never killed directly but somewhere along the way the editors/writers decided that should change in the comics and the current crop of Marvel movies/TV shows  has that new stance.

That said, I don't like it and I thought the Ronin story arc was badly thought out and handled. Not that I was in favor of the whole "snap" thing, either.

The biggest problem with the Ronin "arc" was that there really wasn't an arc.  Clint's family is snapped.  And now he's killing people in Mexico.  And now killing people in Japan.  Natasha drops in with "Hey. we have a time machine."  Clint stops being Ronin.

I guess there's the barest bones of an arc there, but I kind of wanted to see Clint embracing the madness as Ronin and then truly come back to sanity when Widow got through to him.  However, there apparently wasn't room for that during the 3 hour and 1 minute of the movie's run time.  It's not like they could have trimmed a little of the 45 minute CGI slog-battle at the end, I guess.

Edited December 5, 2021 by johntfs

[WildPlum]

On 12/4/2021 at 9:10 PM, johntfs said:

The biggest problem with the Ronin "arc" was that there really wasn't an arc.  Clint's family is snapped.  And now he's killing people in Mexico.  And now killing people in Japan.  Natasha drops in with "Hey. we have a time machine."  Clint stops being Ronin.

I guess there's the barest bones of an arc there, but I kind of wanted to see Clint embracing the madness as Ronin and then truly come back to sanity when Widow got through to him.  However, there apparently wasn't room for that during the 3 hour and 1 minute of the movie's run time.  It's not like they could have trimmed a little of the 45 minute CGI slog-battle at the end, I guess.

Marvel is under the impression (probably correctly) that people watch their movies for the  big name heroes and the CGI. Hence little to no character development outside the main characters - and even then it's sort of questionable for anyone that wasn't in their own movie.  The Marvel movie universe leans heavily on the Ultimates universe, which was created to be "more cinematic" and much more violent and explode-y.

Edited December 6, 2021 by WildPlum

[paigow]

If Fisk is indeed Uncle, then his name is Ebenezer, not Wilson. Loyal minion asks for help and gets a lump of coal instead.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I want the rolex to belong to Cap.

But it will probably be Laura.  I like it best when she's a mom and the love of Clint's life.

[Llywela]

12 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I want the rolex to belong to Cap.

But it will probably be Laura.  I like it best when she's a mom and the love of Clint's life.

Clint told Kate that the rolex belonged to someone who is now out of the game, didn't he? There can't be that many characters who fit that description, not that we already know - most of the movie folk are either still in the game or dead already. So that limits the field of options! 

[paigow]

Yelena, Clint & Kate kill all the Tracksuits except Maya and Dirty Jon Snow.

Edited December 12, 2021 by paigow

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Yelena, Clint & Kate kill all the Tracksuits except Maya and Dirty Jon Snow.

Hey, they should spare the Imagine Dragons guy, too.

Edited December 12, 2021 by johntfs

[paigow]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Hey, they should spare the Imagine Dragons guy, too.

Kate would vote kill... Doubtful he can convince BOTH hardened killers to vote mercy

Edited December 12, 2021 by paigow

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Hey, they should spare the Imagine Dragons guy, too.

Which one was the Imagine Dragons guy?

[paigow]

49 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Which one was the Imagine Dragons guy?

[arc]

After ep 5, I wonder if Kate is going to back to college after this adventure wraps up. She’s only back in NYC because it’s winter break. (And the spectacular vandalism of the university’s bell tower.) But then again, she might not be able to (or want to) rely on her mom’s money next semester.

[paigow]

Hawkeye keeps Dirty Jon Snow alive for the purpose of ratting him out??? Guessing so that Maya will be distracted / re-directed 

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Hawkeye keeps Dirty Jon Snow alive for the purpose of ratting him out??? Guessing so that Maya will be distracted / re-directed 

It's probably pretty smart on his part to redirect her rage to multiple living targets. I'm assuming Maya will punish/kill Kazi first, as the closest betrayer to her father, and that will set her up to have Kingpin be her real opponent as Echo.

[arc]

I can’t believe people are saying they don’t think there will be much reason to watch the upcoming Echo show. One, Alaqua Cox is a strong actress, esp for someone who’s never done it before. But two, this is Marvel and they’re definitely not going to put it all on a relatively unknown actress playing a very D-list superhero. They’re going to bring in more famous supervillains or superheroes. They used Hawkeye to introduce Kate Bishop and Maya Lopez and establish what Yelena’s been doing in 2024. Echo will probably bring in Kingpin and Daredevil as a runway towards a DD show or movie.

[Morrigan2575]

Kingpin and potentially Daredevil would be the only reason for me to watch Echo. I have no interest in Maya as a character. The actress doesn't have chemistry or charisma, IMO.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Bill1978]

1 hour ago, arc said:

I can’t believe people are saying they don’t think there will be much reason to watch the upcoming Echo show.

I'm one of those people currently not interested in the series for two reasons - the character at the moment is just not interesting (plus I've exhusted from the plot point of 'my family was killed I must seek revenge' and I'm generally not a fan of organised crime stories. So at the moment it's not on my must watch list but I know I will tune in for the first episode and it may surprise me. And as you said you just know they are going to throw some better known characters to hook viewers.

Even with this series I admit my mind wanders with all the organised crime moments but I am watching for the Clint/Kate interaction and even Clint's family. And I'm also watching in the hopes for more hints at a Young Avengers project becoming reality.

[paigow]

Echo and Kate still need mentoring. If Barton drops out, Daredevil is the logical choice. Yelena seems like a lone wolf and not the teaching type...

[Sakura12]

I'd watch Maya's show if Daredevil is in it to set up another season of his show.  He can be Maya's mentor like Clint is Kate's. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I'd watch Maya's show if Daredevil is in it to set up another season of his show.  He can be Maya's mentor like Clint is Kate's. 

When Murdock is busy, Punisher will sub in

[Morrigan2575]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:14 PM, Sakura12 said:

I'd watch Maya's show if Daredevil is in it to set up another season of his show.  He can be Maya's mentor like Clint is Kate's. 

 

On 12/15/2021 at 8:35 PM, paigow said:

When Murdock is busy, Punisher will sub in

So, basically more seasons of Dare Devil and Punisher? Yeah, I'd watch that 😂

Edited December 17, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[bethy]

Personally, I disagree that Alaqua Cox is a strong actress. There are ways to portray anger and grief that are wider ranging than scowling all the time. I don't have any feeling for why Kazi would be loyal to her as a leader or see her as a friend because even in those scenes she just frowns at him. I hope that if there is a spinoff, they provide her with some acting lessons to help her expand her range. (And I don't mean that as a burn; in whatever profession we're in, we should continue to learn. For a young, new actress leading a show, more training can only help.)

[johntfs]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:40 AM, arc said:

After ep 5, I wonder if Kate is going to back to college after this adventure wraps up. She’s only back in NYC because it’s winter break. (And the spectacular vandalism of the university’s bell tower.) But then again, she might not be able to (or want to) rely on her mom’s money next semester.

Given what's happened, it's likely that mom's money will be seized by the government and/or shoved into her legal defense.  So Kate might be without money.

Hmmm.  Give what's happened in Spider-Man: No Way Home, maybe Kate, Yelena and Peter Parker could share an apartment in kind of a young Three's Company scenario?

[arc]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:01 PM, johntfs said:

Hmmm.  Give what's happened in Spider-Man: No Way Home, maybe Kate, Yelena and Peter Parker could share an apartment in kind of a young Three's Company scenario?

I’d assume Yelena is pretty well off. Even if she doesn’t kill for money (Clint aside), which is total speculation, there’s still a lot of Black Widow type skills she could sell for tons of money.

Also, extradiegetically Peter is always gonna be somewhat silo’ed off from the rest of the MCU just by nature of the Sony license.

Kate could probably draw a nepotism salary from Bishop Security, which is too big to completely shut down just because the head of the company committed a high profile murder. But she’d better not destroy any more university buildings.

Edited December 27, 2021 by arc

[cambridgeguy]

15 hours ago, johntfs said:

Given what's happened, it's likely that mom's money will be seized by the government and/or shoved into her legal defense.  So Kate might be without money.

Hmmm.  Give what's happened in Spider-Man: No Way Home, maybe Kate, Yelena and Peter Parker could share an apartment in kind of a young Three's Company scenario?

Sounds like Kate might need a good lawyer.  Good thing there's one out there who'd likely do it pro bono given what she did to Kingpin.

And I can just imagine the conversation between Peter and Kate.  So you're telling me you ran around the city without a mask for days and no one outside of the baddies cared? 

[BaggythePanther]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:39 AM, cambridgeguy said:

And I can just imagine the conversation between Peter and Kate.  So you're telling me you ran around the city without a mask for days and no one outside of the baddies cared? 

To be fair, Peter was unmasked and accused of murdering a supposed hero. Kate just murdered a bunch of faceless mafia goons so I doubt many people care.