S02.E18: Power

[Trini]

In the Batwoman season finale, Ryan Wilder questions her place as the city's hero as she, Luke Fox, Mary Hamilton and Sophie Moore must join forces when Black Mask (guest star Peter Outerbridge) instigates chaos in the Gotham streets. Meanwhile, Alice's attempt to rescue her sister means another encounter with Circe (guest star Wallis Day). In an epic standoff, unexpected alliances and transformations will upend Gotham as we know it.

Holly Dale directed the episode written by Caroline Dries.

Airdate: 6/27/21

Edited June 25, 2021 by Trini

[Trini]

Preview scene: Sophie, Ryan:

 

::sniff:: They've come so far!

[scarynikki12]

Black Mask was giving me Joker vibes from his broadcast.

Bane’s venom for Tavaroff. Good choice genius. 

Roman all you had to do was mass market your burn cream and you’d have everyone celebrating you the way you want. Less bloodshed so I know that’s unappealing but it would have gotten the job done.

I really enjoy all the scenes we get between Ryan and Alice.

Awww Luke in his suit saving Mary.

Ha! Alice used Joker’s acid flower on Roman so now he’s gonna legitimately need to wear a mask. Of course he’s still got the burn cream so it may not matter.

That looks the same bridge Beth and their mom went over. Fitting that Alice and Kate go over this time.

We really need a moratorium on shows depicting CPR. It always takes me out of the scene.

Kate seems lighter personally. Some of it’s Wallis and I think some of it’s relief at shedding Circe.

Kate’s going to visit Kara! I doubt we’ll get to see it but I can hope.

I also hope she finds Bruce soon. I like the actor they hired to play him so I’d like to see how his actual return would shake things up.

I wonder if we know Ryan’s mother.

Dare I hope that we’re getting Ivy next season?

[janeta]

So, The Purge?

 

Ryan, why are you believing anything Alice  says? Alice is the most interesting thing in the show, though, so I hope they get back to her now and then.

[BeautifulFlower]

3 minutes ago, janeta said:

So, The Purge?

 

Ryan, why are you believing anything Alice  says? Alice is the most interesting thing in the show, though, so I hope they get back to her now and then.

The Purge was my first thought when I was listening to Black Mask's broadcast.

Ryan probably won't believe her. And how would Alice even know who Ryan's birth mother is. That is something to think about and hopefully she does.

[sugarbaker design]

About the scenes with the young family during the blackout, the boy made a fuss about something to look at, his father looked at it and smiled.  I never saw what it was, did I miss something?

[BeautifulFlower]

6 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

About the scenes with the young family during the blackout, the boy made a fuss about something to look at, his father looked at it and smiled.  I never saw what it was, did I miss something?

It was a skull mask. He got the idea to somehow make a bat signal out of it. They put a candle in it and put it in their window like everyone else.

[Twilight Man]

Critical design flaw on Roman's part

😆😆😆😆😆

 

See you all next fall.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Twilight Man

[Primal Slayer]

The Flash has made all tapped out on pep talks and motivational speeches. These shows always have to go over the top, no Batsignal? Everyone in Gotham miraculously has bat lanterns ready to draw attention to their houses and inspire Ryan that she is Batwoman even without the suit.

If they want to suit up Luke, cool, fine, but his "I drew what a black Batman would look like" come on show, that felt so forced when it's essentially the batman beyond beyond and in general its just a superpowered suit with a transformers mask. 

The finale was ok but it didnt feel very finale-ish. Kate is back in control and just gives up the mantle willy nilly, and now she has to find her cousin. 

Kates story was a waste. 

The batsuit gets chopped up and but back together as if it never was cut to shreds.

We end the season with "mom is still alive!" and probably a bad guy.  

I just hope that S3 they put more effort into Gotham. 

[Lantern7]

Good finale to a season that stumbled out of the gate. Kate gets her memories back. Alice gets her sister back for ten seconds, and then GCPD showed up to get an easy W nabbing her. Luke gets a suit of his own Ryan is released from parole,and she and Kate get a long overdue chat. Kate decides to go on a quest to find her cousin because . . . well, why not? Oh, and Black Mask basically becomes the comics canon Baron Zemo, as Alice nails him with the Joker's flower, binding his mask to his face. Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

And, of course, Ryan's biological mother is still alive. Thanks for that, Alice! That should still be interesting, though.

16 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

About the scenes with the young family during the blackout, the boy made a fuss about something to look at, his father looked at it and smiled.  I never saw what it was, did I miss something?

Apparently, if you put light inside the mask, you wound up with a small Bat Signal. And I have to wonder who designed the masks. If it was Circe, one could think that Kate was still fighting inside her own mind, and she managed to put out a bit of hope for Gotham.

Naaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!

Anyone else kindasorta hoping Vesper would get hurt while broadcasting? I have nothing against Rachel Maddow, but I don't think Batwoman needs a modern Greek chorus.

[Jediknight]

I know they wanted to make Tavaroff look big as newBane, but they couldn't find a better muscle suit?  Dude was looking like he was gonna be joined by Hans and Franz.

The Mayor of Gotham really has terrible security.  What did he have, one driver?

[Primal Slayer]

Kate has spent a season being tortured, mind raped, new face, no tatts, sister in jail, dad in jail, gets some gas to the face and she is honky dory, as happy as can be. So rushed, they really just wanted to try to make fans happy by bringing kate back just to send her off as quickly so they can wipe their hands of her. 

[128survivor]

What did they do with Taveroff in the end ?

[Primal Slayer]

Not really sure why the writers want to act like Alice/Mary have to have a relationship when they didnt grow up together, they share 1 (step) parent that seems like he was barely a big part of their lives in general, Kate isnt around to help them bond, isnt even a doppelganger. I get they want to keep Alice around because she's one of the best aspects of the show but it doesnt make any sense. Also Alice spent more time with her dead boyfriend than she did with Kate as Kate. 

[Jersey Luck]

34 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Kate has spent a season being tortured, mind raped, new face, no tatts, sister in jail, dad in jail, gets some gas to the face and she is honky dory, as happy as can be. So rushed, they really just wanted to try to make fans happy by bringing kate back just to send her off as quickly so they can wipe their hands of her. 

And it backfired on them hard. In a vacuum that was okay, but the problem is that some people watched the first season and aren't happy with this change of pace. 

And it sad because the rest of the cast is pretty solid. Ryan was but this season wasn't her story. It was still all about Kate in a way that brought negative feelings because the person the who lead the story of the first 2 seasons is gone. 

I excited to see what is next, but this season to be more about Ryan's world instead of putting Ryan into Kate's shoes.

[BeautifulFlower]

55 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Not really sure why the writers want to act like Alice/Mary have to have a relationship when they didnt grow up together, they share 1 (step) parent that seems like he was barely a big part of their lives in general, Kate isnt around to help them bond, isnt even a doppelganger. I get they want to keep Alice around because she's one of the best aspects of the show but it doesnt make any sense. Also Alice spent more time with her dead boyfriend than she did with Kate as Kate. 

I don't get it either. It's why I rolled my eyes in 2x16 when Jacob told her to help get "Beth back" or see the "Beth" in Alice. Dude...MARY HAS NEVER MET BETH!!!! To Mary, it could easily be an act to her. Plus, I find it insulting for him to say all of that knowing Alice killed her mom.

[Proteus]

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Kate has spent a season being tortured, mind raped, new face, no tatts, sister in jail, dad in jail, gets some gas to the face and she is honky dory, as happy as can be. So rushed, they really just wanted to try to make fans happy by bringing kate back just to send her off as quickly so they can wipe their hands of her. 

Yup. I hate this show. I'm done.

[Trini]

I don't think I've commented much about Black Mask before; but Outerbridge has been pretty good and entertaining as a crazy Gotham villain. And his plans worked for the most part, so ... kudos Black Mask! ... Sorry (not really) about your face....

Thought this was action-packed and worked well for a season ender, though I have a few quibbles.

It only took literally the entire season, but Alice is finally back in Arkham. She's entertaining, but it felt a bit wrong that she had a better arc and conclusion than other non-villain main characters. I was expecting her to help restore Kate, so that was fine. But then she also got to kill(?) Safiyah; mutilate Black Mask; get a goodbye with her ghost boy toy; AND find a big clue to Ryan's past(??!).

Thought Tavaroff was going to play a slightly bigger part, but there were more important things going on. Glad Luke got to punch him; yay! Batwing!! It's a leap for him to go from the Batcave to a Batsuit, but I'm interested in seeing his journey next season.

Mary continues to be the best; and I like how they use her on the team even without butt-kicking abilities. "I just made the list, y'all handle the rest" -- LOL! Her reaction to Luke/Batwing was hilarious, too. Protect those two, please!

I wish there had been more Sophie, she kinda disappeared halfway through. I guess they had to close off Kate/Sophie since it seems like Kate won't be back (at least not on a regular basis), but it still sucks.

Really liked that we got lots of reinforcement that Ryan is Batwoman now. From Sophie, Mary, and most importantly from the former Batwoman, Kate herself. Good thing that it's apparently quick and easy for Luke another suit for her. And she's off of parole, so that's one less detail to worry about. So Ryan's 'bio-mother' is alive? She shouldn't be paying attention to Alice, but it will probably turn out to be true. I just don't know if I want to see another hunt for a missing person so soon. Although it's good that Ryan is getting her own mystery.

I didn't miss Jacob, but he also should have had a resolution to his situation.

Interesting that Snakebite is what helped bring back Kate. The writers seem to love coming full circle. (Or recycling stuff.)

Now Kate: Well, I was afraid they might drag Kate's recovery into Season 3, so I'm kinda glad they're not doing that. But on the other hand, it's disappointing that we only had about five minutes of the real Kate. In hindsight, it's clear that this whole Circe thing was mainly to give Alice a story; because those few scenes of real Kate were the only ones needed to close up her story.

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Good finale to a season that stumbled out of the gate. Kate gets her memories back. Alice gets her sister back for ten seconds, and then GCPD showed up to get an easy W nabbing her. Luke gets a suit of his own Ryan is released from parole,and she and Kate get a long overdue chat. Kate decides to go on a quest to find her cousin because . . . well, why not? Oh, and Black Mask basically becomes the comics canon Baron Zemo, as Alice nails him with the Joker's flower, binding his mask to his face. Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

I feel like we could have gotten all this, the same conclusions, without turning Kate into a villain's daughter.

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Kate has spent a season being tortured, mind raped, new face, no tatts, sister in jail, dad in jail, gets some gas to the face and she is honky dory, as happy as can be. So rushed, they really just wanted to try to make fans happy by bringing kate back just to send her off as quickly so they can wipe their hands of her. 

It was rushed, but it totally didn't have to be, since I'm 96% sure that this is how they planned to end Kate's story from the start (since they decided to replace the character instead of kill her off). They could have had Kate pass the mantle and leave wayyy earlier; or actually make that a season-long or half season arc for Ryan and Kate. All the torture, face swapping, hypnotizing, and villainy was completely unnecessary.

So I guess Kate will be back one day with Bruce. And now I just realized Mary doesn't have any family around now.  😩 😞

[Jediknight]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

So I guess Kate will be back one day with Bruce. And now I just realized Mary doesn't have any family around now.  😩 😞

Poor Luke, he gets forgotten about.  He's Mary's family, not by blood, but he's family for her.

[cambridgeguy]

Mary's clinic has to rank as one of the worst places to work, right?  There's a pretty decent chance you'll be attacked/killed by one of Gotham's many lunatics who may or may not want to hurt Mary herself but will absolutely see you as disposable.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I guess I should have expected to be mixed on the finale, and I was.

Most of the good things had problems with them though.

1. Ryan gets somewhat of a chance to prove herself truly Batwoman by fighting without the gadgets (for the most part) and the suit.

It was good to see her in top fighting form. But I suppose the question is why she doesn't use the gadgets. Circe clearly couldn't have taken all the Batarangs, smoke bombs, tranq guns, etc. AND prevented them from making more, right? 

Also, it seems very sloppy of the Bat Fam to have let the villains' weapons float downstream to parts where anyone could get them. I didn't get how the villains' stuff ended up in the river anyway, other than the writers saying "we wanted it to."

We saw what was supposedly an ivy vine creeping up the shore. Does that mean Safiyah never took the Ivy stuff she wanted to get back in the Desert Rose business or were there multiple samples?

2. Ryan gets the Kate Kane stamp of approval rather than time-sharing Batwoman or Kate reclaiming the mantle

There probably was no way to do this to the satisfaction of everybody or maybe even most people in the space of an episode. There are going to be Kate fans or Ryan opponents who want Kate back. There are going to be Ryan fans who are going to think she doesn't need Kate's blessing or who think that she didn't get it enough. 

For my money, the show should have established more that Ryan actually wants to be Batwoman and spent less time on people telling her she's good enough, she's smart enough and gosh darn it, people like her as Batwoman. I think we had an unprecedented level of pep-talkiness for the Arrowverse. In addition to Kate, Ryan needed to get the message from Vesper AND half of Gotham that she was valid. 

3. Alice is FINALLY behind bars after strolling through our heroes' lives

Alice did almost as much work -- possibly more -- than Ryan this episode. She was the one who was the key to defeating Black Mask and restoring Kate's memory. Then there's the ass-pull of "Ryan's actual mother is actually alive." I would laugh if it was just Alice fucking with Ryan, but I'm fairly sure that it's supposed to be the case that for 25+ years, for some reasons, Ryan's mother was out of the box and the people and institutions that should have known that she was alive somehow all failed. I really hope that Alice is not around so much in S3. Please, no recurring Hannibalesque visits where Ryan gets weekly clues as to Mom's whereabouts, or worse, an early breakout where Alice then continues on the road to redemption.

4. Luke levels up

Happy that Luke has moved on his on hero's journey in some senses, but not so happy in others.

I feel a little insulted that we are supposed to buy that Lucius Fox made a Batsuit with Luke in mind that apparently has the capability of superjumping/flight, and didn't tell Luke, didn't tell Bruce (or Bruce didn't tell Luke), didn't make these improvements for Bruce's suit, didn't have it somewhere the suit was discovered until the middle of a blackout. I would have probably more easily bought that Luke, being a genius in his own right, had been tinkering with his own suit for a while, knew it wasn't quite ready but the anarchy in the streets meant he had no choice but to use it.  

The Arrowverse has a tendency to start off with a single hero and then power up everyone so that the hero becomes less special. Arrow starts with just Ollie as a super-skilled archer. And then by the end, there are two Canaries, Dig and Wild Dog, and a number of others who had been trained up. Flash went from being the only hero to being one of three or four (Vibe/Mecha-Vibe, Frost, the ultraviolet woman, Elongated Man before his actor forced the character being written off). Supergirl always had J'onn but originally he limited his super-activity, and Alex always fought by her side as an ordinary human. But now he has Ms. Martian, Brainy, Dreamer, and Alex have costumed identities. Instead of Black Lightning, it became about in large part about Thunder, Lightning, Wylde, Painkiller AND TC. Is it just a matter of time before Sophie and Mary get their own supersuits?  

5. Sophie gets sidelined...again

What does it say about Ryan or Sophie that Ryan would rather have Alice, psychotic killer of her mom and others, watch her back than Sophie? Yes, the writers engineered a situation where Sophie was "needed" to safeguard the mayor. But even before that, the plan was to enlist Alice and not both Alice and Sophie. 

The writers probably could have come up with a half-dozen ways that they could have had Sophie out of the picture that would have made the character seem stronger. Say Crows HQ had its own emergency generator and communications center that she went to use. Or if it was Sophie's own idea to protect the mayor rather than being told to do it by Batwoman. Or if Sophie recruited the few good Crows to help keep peace on the streets. 

The resolution to the Kate-Sophie love story also left something to be desired. Sophie has nothing really tying her to Gotham any more, and the supposed love of her life is back. Why would she let Kate say "We both deserve something easier" stop her from saying "But all this has taught me that you're not the woman I deserve, you're the one I need right now." or something. 

6. Snakebite -- the cause and solution to all of life's problems

I will give the writers props because in retrospect it seems obvious that Snakebite could restore Kate's memories, but I at least didn't see it coming and didn't see speculation that it might happen. 

It seems like Roman probably would have done way better to manufacture a legal version of the drug. There would be some real therapeutic value to allowing people to process their greatest pain if one could do it without the addictive side effects.  

At the same time, somebody should have pointed out that subjecting Kate to modified Snakebite came with risks.. It was just a few weeks ago that a Snakebite variant turned a bunch of users into flesh-craving zombie analogues. 

Along similar lines, Tavaroff should not let that stuff come within a mile of his body, seeing as how he saw first-hand that it turned people into zombies he had to gun down. I can buy that he is a power-hungry bad guy, but nothing about the character up till now has suggested he's crazy or stupid. 

[Diapason Untuned]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

1. Ryan gets somewhat of a chance to prove herself truly Batwoman by fighting without the gadgets (for the most part) and the suit.

It was good to see her in top fighting form. But I suppose the question is why she doesn't use the gadgets. Circe clearly couldn't have taken all the Batarangs, smoke bombs, tranq guns, etc. AND prevented them from making more, right? 

It's not clear how much equipment they did have. i could buy that Circe either stole or wrecked most of it and they certainly didn't have time to make more.

 

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Also, it seems very sloppy of the Bat Fam to have let the villains' weapons float downstream to parts where anyone could get them. I didn't get how the villains' stuff ended up in the river anyway, other than the writers saying "we wanted it to."

When Ryan and Alice rolled in, Roman told Circe to take the weapons and run. She had them on her when they went over the bridge. Nothing that could have been done there.

 

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We saw what was supposedly an ivy vine creeping up the shore. Does that mean Safiyah never took the Ivy stuff she wanted to get back in the Desert Rose business or were there multiple samples?

Alice killed her before she got the chance.

 

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2. Ryan gets the Kate Kane stamp of approval rather than time-sharing Batwoman or Kate reclaiming the mantle

There probably was no way to do this to the satisfaction of everybody or maybe even most people in the space of an episode. There are going to be Kate fans or Ryan opponents who want Kate back. There are going to be Ryan fans who are going to think she doesn't need Kate's blessing or who think that she didn't get it enough. 

 

Black Mask said it himself, people can't follow a confusing message. I kinda wish the show had stuck to one thing, either recasting Kate or not, just killing her and moving on.

 

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4. Luke levels up

Happy that Luke has moved on his on hero's journey in some senses, but not so happy in others.

I feel a little insulted that we are supposed to buy that Lucius Fox made a Batsuit with Luke in mind that apparently has the capability of superjumping/flight, and didn't tell Luke, didn't tell Bruce (or Bruce didn't tell Luke), didn't make these improvements for Bruce's suit, didn't have it somewhere the suit was discovered until the middle of a blackout. I would have probably more easily bought that Luke, being a genius in his own right, had been tinkering with his own suit for a while, knew it wasn't quite ready but the anarchy in the streets meant he had no choice but to use it.  

I can buy Lucius was working on it in secret and never got around to telling anyone and that Luke never found the thing, because God knows, that place didn't look like anyone had been in there for years.

 

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For my money, the show should have established more that Ryan actually wants to be Batwoman and spent less time on people telling her she's good enough, she's smart enough and gosh darn it, people like her as Batwoman. I think we had an unprecedented level of pep-talkiness for the Arrowverse. In addition to Kate, Ryan needed to get the message from Vesper AND half of Gotham that she was valid. 

Compared to Flash, I barely even noted this.

 

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6. Snakebite -- the cause and solution to all of life's problems

I will give the writers props because in retrospect it seems obvious that Snakebite could restore Kate's memories, but I at least didn't see it coming and didn't see speculation that it might happen. 

Yeah, I can't say this came out of nowhere, unlike Ryan's Desert Rose.

 

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Along similar lines, Tavaroff should not let that stuff come within a mile of his body, seeing as how he saw first-hand that it turned people into zombies he had to gun down. I can buy that he is a power-hungry bad guy, but nothing about the character up till now has suggested he's crazy or stupid. 

He decided to spontaneously kill his boss in cold blood. Guy's a moron.

[tennisgurl]

After the season really struggled in how it started, with all of the behind the scenes issues and having to introduce a whole new Batwoman, I think they ended things pretty well. It  mostly went the way I expected it to, with Kate getting her memories back and leaving to go find Bruce while Alice goes back to Arkham and Ryan stays as Batwoman, although I thought that Sophie would go with Kate and that would be her exit from the show. I am glad that they really emphasized how Ryan is still Batwoman now even with Kate being back, and that with Kate leaving we can really focus on her more next season. Especially now that she has her own long lost relative that she can find. What are the odds that her moms a supervillain by now, or that she's a superhero or something and left Ryan behind to keep her enemies from finding her? With long lost relatives, its usually one or the other. Its pretty rare for a long lost relative, especially a parent, to just be some rando working at a CVS. 

I am alright with how they are writing Kate out, leaving room for her to return later to do some guest appearances, but I really don't think I like how they handled her return in general. Wallis Day is great as Kate and as Circe, but I really wanted to get a little more of her as actual Kate and give her some more closure, she spent way too much time as missing and then as a brainwashed supervillain, I think we could have cut some of the "is Kate dead or not?" bits to save Kate earlier and have more time with her before she left. It felt like they didn't want to ditch Kate but they also decided they wanted to commit to this new original character so they spent all this time in this weird middle ground where Ryan was Batwoman but a huge portion of the show was still dedicated to Kate who was still offscreen, like Ryan was just a placeholder but we also knew that no one would they ditch Ryan for Kate, which just confused everything. I think it would have been better if they had found Kate earlier and had her alongside Ryan for awhile before she left, then it would have cut all the parts with Kate just heading off after being almost killed, imprisoned, brainwashed, and having her face cut off and given a new one like it was just one wild weekend and really sent her off in style. Or, and while I have come around on Ryan as a character one they started focusing on her and less on seeing just how tragic they could make her backstory, they could have just had Kate come back but with her Wallis Day face and keep her as Batwoman. In the end, Kate's story ended up being more about Alice then about either Kate or Ryan. 

We finally see Alice back in prison, and while I like the full circle nature of her and Kate going over another bridge and Alice being able to save Kate, I feel like we had WAY too much of her this season. The whole thing with the island was just convoluted, and while she and the super hot Ocean had decent chemistry, it was hard to get that invested in a tragic doomed romance that mostly happened offscreen. Plus, I really don't like the retcon of her being brainwashed into Alice, it cheapens her entire tragic journey from abused kidnap victim to deranged killer if it turns out that she basically escaped captivity fine, just a bit angry, and it was all the plot of some jealous supervillain that made her into Alice. Where does Mouse even fit into that? What was even the point of her many flashbacks to how she became Alice if it was all brainwashing? This clearly exists because the show wanted to possibly make Alice into more of an anti-hero at some point, although I am glad that Ryan at least isn't ready to let bygones be bygones. It muddles up so much of what made Alice a compelling villain and the dynamic between Alice and her family. 

Luke basically becoming Batman Gizmoduck sounds like it could be fun, glad that he is getting his groove back again. He and Mary didn't get a whole lot to do but what they did get was all pretty good. Sophie also got some decent stuff, although I am curious as to what she is going to do now that she and Kate are officially broken up and the Crows are over. I still hope they don't make her a love interest for Ryan, that would just feel weird to me to have her just move from being the love interest of one Batwoman to the next. 

Black Mask turned out to be a pretty cool bad guy, although his plan seems like he really could have skipped a few steps. If he can do this much amazing stuff cosmetically, he could probably be Gotham's savior anyway, but now because he just HAD to be a supervillain, he's stuck in his mask in a cell in Arkham. 

I really have come to like Ryan as Batwoman, and I am glad that next season will really be able to focus on her as a Batwoman without the shadow of Kate and her possible death looming over her, but...Ryan Wilder is still a ridiculous name. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

24 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

It's not clear how much equipment they did have. i could buy that Circe either stole or wrecked most of it and they certainly didn't have time to make more.

 

When Ryan and Alice rolled in, Roman told Circe to take the weapons and run. She had them on her when they went over the bridge. Nothing that could have been done there.

 

Alice killed her before she got the chance.

 

Black Mask said it himself, people can't follow a confusing message. I kinda wish the show had stuck to one thing, either recasting Kate or not, just killing her and moving on.

 

I can buy Lucius was working on it in secret and never got around to telling anyone and that Luke never found the thing, because God knows, that place didn't look like anyone had been in there for years.

 

Compared to Flash, I barely even noted this.

 

Yeah, I can't say this came out of nowhere, unlike Ryan's Desert Rose.

 

He decided to spontaneously kill his boss in cold blood. Guy's a moron.

Given that Bruce has typically been portrayed as having contingency plans within contingency plans wrapped in yet another set of backup plans, I am just not going to buy that he kept all his Bat-weapons in the Batcave, that Kate in her mental state would have known where to find all off them (remember, she literally had no idea that there was still a Batmobile in the cave) and had time to destroy/dispose of them, or that Bruce didn't have the ability to obtain more weapons if the Batcave was completely looted, taken over, inaccessible etc. Even if we accept that Kate thoroughly looted/destroyed all the immediately available Batweapons, the Batfam should have been able to buy some commercially available devices in the time between Kate's escape and Black Mask shutting off the power.

It's a given that Ryan couldn't stop Kate from taking the Batvillain weapons from Black Mask HQ, and it's a fair point that she couldn't stop them from going in the river in the first place (although I would argue it seems unlikely that she had them all on her physical person when she went into the river). But what Ryan (and Kate) could and should have done is exert at least some effort to recover the weapons from the river. Maybe they did off-screen, but it is not a good look that a bunch of WMDs were just left there.

Safiyah presumably had the time to meet with Black Mask between when Kate stole the stuff and when Alice stabbed her. She monologued about how she was going to be Queen of the Desert Rose again. It's unclear if she had already put her plans in motion or what. But there was probably IMO time for her to have gotten the Ivy miracle-gro stuff before her confrontation with Alice.

I don't know if the plan to kill Jacob was "stupid," per se. They would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddlesome Batwoman, and if so, he would be in a position to be 100 percent running the Crows either as the official head or just manipulating things behind the scenes. With both Jake and Sophie gone, there wasn't necessarily anybody of note to stop him. I guess I have to accept Tavaroff is as smart or stupid as the plot requires, no more and no less. He was clever enough to have found and to run Batwoman's DNA, and to have gotten away with evil Crow stuff for years.

[Primal Slayer]

Im just like...if Kate is going to try to find Bruce, shouldn't she start in Gotham? She has absolutely zero clues to go off from. Her starting point is where exactly? 

[Diapason Untuned]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Given that Bruce has typically been portrayed as having contingency plans within contingency plans wrapped in yet another set of backup plans,

This is a comics thing that has been flanderized to hell and back, so I'm not really going to blame Bruce for not putting 20 odd levels of security in his already secure Batcave.

 

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I am just not going to buy that he kept all his Bat-weapons in the Batcave, that Kate in her mental state would have known where to find all off them (remember, she literally had no idea that there was still a Batmobile in the cave)

She was obviously searching around for stuff she could use.

 

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and had time to destroy/dispose of them, or that Bruce didn't have the ability to obtain more weapons if the Batcave was completely looted, taken over, inaccessible etc.

She had hours in there, based on Ryan getting arrested, taken to GCPD for booking, calling her parole officer, etc.

 

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Even if we accept that Kate thoroughly looted/destroyed all the immediately available Batweapons, the Batfam should have been able to buy some commercially available devices in the time between Kate's escape and Black Mask shutting off the power.

That stuff isn't exactly off the rack, you know.

 

Quote

It's a given that Ryan couldn't stop Kate from taking the Batvillain weapons from Black Mask HQ, and it's a fair point that she couldn't stop them from going in the river in the first place (although I would argue it seems unlikely that she had them all on her physical person when she went into the river).

Why would it be unlikely? We know she had them all on the bike.

 

Quote

But what Ryan (and Kate) could and should have done is exert at least some effort to recover the weapons from the river. Maybe they did off-screen, but it is not a good look that a bunch of WMDs were just left there.

When would they have time to do that? The stuff had already floated away by the time Ryan found Kate and Alice on the shore. By the time they could get equipment together to do a search it would be too late.

 

Quote

Safiyah presumably had the time to meet with Black Mask between when Kate stole the stuff and when Alice stabbed her. She monologued about how she was going to be Queen of the Desert Rose again. It's unclear if she had already put her plans in motion or what. But there was probably IMO time for her to have gotten the Ivy miracle-gro stuff before her confrontation with Alice.

Fair enough. I assume she just wanted to talk to Alice first.

 

Quote

I don't know if the plan to kill Jacob was "stupid," per se. They would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddlesome Batwoman, and if so, he would be in a position to be 100 percent running the Crows either as the official head or just manipulating things behind the scenes. With both Jake and Sophie gone, there wasn't necessarily anybody of note to stop him.

He would have killed him sure, but I don't know about getting away with it. It was too sudden, not enough planning.

 

Quote

I guess I have to accept Tavaroff is as smart or stupid as the plot requires, no more and no less. He was clever enough to have found and to run Batwoman's DNA, and to have gotten away with evil Crow stuff for years.

You don't need to smart to find some blood on the ground and do a DNA test, and you don' need to be smart to frame people when you have the weight of the state, big business and people's apathy behind you.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[cambridgeguy]

46 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Im just like...if Kate is going to try to find Bruce, shouldn't she start in Gotham? She has absolutely zero clues to go off from. Her starting point is where exactly? 

Alfred, since Julia mentioned that he's still alive.  Speaking of Julia, I wonder if anyone realized her sudden departure probably meant she was brainwashed and told her.

[thuganomics85]

So, Roman's grand plan was to basically kick off Gotham's version of The Purge, huh?  Seemed a little convoluted, but who am I to question his judgement?  I did appreciate the irony of him getting sprayed by Alice with acid and him now having to wear his mask and be unable to "separate" Roman from Black Mask.  Hope we see him again: Peter Outerbridge was a campy delight in the role.

In the end, the story with Kate/Circe pretty much went the away I expected.  Thanks to a last minute safe/idea from Mary about using Snakebite on her, the real Kate finally comes back for good.  But it looks like she won't be sticking around and is planning on trying to find Bruce instead.  Figured that was going to be case since Ryan is the new Batwoman now, and they didn't want there to be any conflicts over that going forward.  Wouldn't be surprised though if Kate shows back up somewhere down the line.  Wallis Day was great in the role, so at least they succeeded with that particular recast.

Luke's got himself his own supersuit now!

Tavaroff basically became mini-Bane for a bit, but then went out like a chump.  Hee!

Alice is back in prison at least, but we'll see how long she actually stays there.  Especially with her busting out the sudden claim that Ryan's dead birth mother might not be so dead after-all...

A bit of a rough season in some aspects, but I'm curious to see where things will go next season now that they've shaken off some of the unexpected twist and turns (COVID and the shutdowns, Ruby Rose leaving.)  They at least have some intriguing ideas and set-ups for season three.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Im just like...if Kate is going to try to find Bruce, shouldn't she start in Gotham? She has absolutely zero clues to go off from. Her starting point is where exactly? 

They needed to get rid of Kate because she will always outshine Ryan Wilder.

[Primal Slayer]

31 minutes ago, Proteus said:

They needed to get rid of Kate because she will always outshine Ryan Wilder.

Of course but just do it better.

Does this all mean that we'll have to go at least 2 more years of an empty Wayne Enterprises? I can't deal with it just sitting there collecting dust like Starlabs.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

This is a comics thing that has been flanderized to hell and back, so I'm not really going to blame Bruce for not putting 20 odd levels of security in his already secure Batcave.

 

She was obviously searching around for stuff she could use.

 

She had hours in there, based on Ryan getting arrested, taken to GCPD for booking, calling her parole officer, etc.

 

That stuff isn't exactly off the rack, you know.

 

Why would it be unlikely? We know she had them all on the bike.

 

When would they have time to do that? The stuff had already floated away by the time Ryan found Kate and Alice on the shore. By the time they could get equipment together to do a search it would be too late.

 

Fair enough. I assume she just wanted to talk to Alice first.

 

He would have killed him sure, but I don't know about getting away with it. It was too sudden, not enough planning.

 

You don't need to smart to find some blood on the ground and do a DNA test, and you don' need to be smart to frame people when you have the weight of the state, big business and people's apathy behind you.

Not having a ton of additional security on the Cave is a different issue than storing all one's weapons in the Cave in a place where Kate or a hypothetical intruder could have gotten them all. I think such an approach would be out of line for anyone, even if they were not supposed to have preparation as their defining trait.

Indeed, the existence of the Batwing suit undermines the notion that Kate would have been able to get rid of all the weapons Ryan would have had available to her by looting the Batcave for hours.

The type of stuff that is commercially available in the Batwoman universe is obviously not as good as the gear Batwoman normally has available. But it is better than nothing, especially against anarchistic mobs of people. The Crows even were said to have various less-than-lethal tools that could have been used against the Snakebite zombies. Presumably, the Bat-fam could have used similar weapons.

It is more likely that Kate had the villains' stuff in a compartment or container on the cycle she was on than she had them physically on her when she went over. In fighting Ryan and Alice, we don't see her having any of these items in hand and some, like the Penguin's parasol, are fairly large and obvious. She was wearing a suit that didn't seem to have space to hold most of the items.

It is entirely possible that I missed something in my watch, but there was no transition that showed how the multiple items ended up going from the bridge into the river. We were just shown that they were in the river.

Anyway, it should have been obvious to Ryan that the Batvillain stuff went over into the river as Alice and Kate did, and that it would be Bad if they got into the wrong hands. So she had an opportunity to go searching for it from the moment that the GCPD arrested Alice, if not earlier. Yes, a search would have been better with specialized equipment, but it seems obligatory to launch that search immediately given the danger of some of those things. It seems like it would have been better to have shown or said that Ryan searched for these things in vain than to not reflect any attempt to have tried to. 

The plot to kill Jake was to make it look like he had died of a Snakebite overdose. I don't know how much Tavaroff knew about Jake's actual Snakebite use, but given that Jake had been in fact using Snakebite, that was certainly a plausible end for him. Mary had knowledge of it, Sophie suspected it, and presumably, given that Tavaroff had fallen in quickly with Black Mask, he could have gotten confirmation of the use from Black Mask as well. 

He got closer to uncovering this Batwoman's identity than any of the Crows or GCPD has ever got to uncovering any vigilante's identity, despite the near-certainty that others have left DNA and other evidence that could be traced back to them. Credit where credit is due.

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Tavaroff basically became mini-Bane for a bit, but then went out like a chump.  Hee!

We have Alice as a poor man's Joker and Safiyah as a bargain basement Ra's. We now have Tavaroff as Brand X Bane. Who else are we going to see going forward? The Puffin? Double-Visage? Feline Fellow? ETA: I suppose arguably Wolf Spider could already be seen as a bargain basement Catwoman -- a thief who occasionally can be join the heroes and do the right thing. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Quark]

I liked the finale, and I've enjoyed this season, although it did feel like several scenes were cut from the finale.

My main gripe, is what happened to Saffiyah? I know Alice used the knife on her that if removed can bring the person back to life, which Alice used because she wants Saffiyah to suffer, so did Alice just torture her in between scenes this episode? Considering that Safiyyah has played a very important role in the last two seasons, both on and off screen, it was weird to leave her out. I quite liked her so I hope she managed to escape and can wreak a bit of havoc next season.

I know Kate mentioned him at the end, but where was Jacob? 

On to the good stuff, Bat Wing seems cool and the acting was great this episode. Peter Outerbridge was awesome in this role. 

I like that Kate has left, and it looks like Alice might be gone too? It seems like a good idea to have a cast clear out to make way for Ryan Wilder who is definitely my favourite Batwoman. I'm intrigued to find out more about her biological Mom.

[Chicago Redshirt]

57 minutes ago, Quark said:

I know Kate mentioned him at the end, but where was Jacob? 

I think in Jacob's last actual appearance, they said that he was being transferred to a prison in Metropolis because he wouldn't be safe in Blackgate since the Crows had put a lot of people in the pokey there.

This of course doesn't make a ton of sense because a) as a rich guy and a top law enforcement officer, there probably wouldn't be any prison where he might be safe and b) the sort of thing he might be accused of (accessory after the fact) is something that he should be easily be able to bond himself out on. 

Anyway, it would have been nice to have a reaction or a line such that he knew that Kate was now alright, Alice is somewhat on the road to redemption, Alice would clear him as to his supposedly conspiring with her, etc. 

Another piece of resolution that might have been nice: Kate has (presumably) been declared dead. Circe Sionis has been declared alive, and Kate is wearing her face. People have some 'splaining to do.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Trini]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

...  Especially now that she has her own long lost relative that she can find. What are the odds that her moms a supervillain by now, or that she's a superhero or something and left Ryan behind to keep her enemies from finding her? With long lost relatives, its usually one or the other. Its pretty rare for a long lost relative, especially a parent, to just be some rando working at a CVS. ...

Sometimes they're not heroes or villains, but they may end up dead anyway.

 

Quote

... It felt like they didn't want to ditch Kate but they also decided they wanted to commit to this new original character so they spent all this time in this weird middle ground where Ryan was Batwoman but a huge portion of the show was still dedicated to Kate who was still offscreen, like Ryan was just a placeholder but we also knew that no one would they ditch Ryan for Kate, which just confused everything.  ...

I never felt that Ryan was a placeholder. (Julia and Sophie were right there if they wanted to do that.) But seeing as how Kate was the previous lead, and there was no previous setup for her exit, and all the characters in the show were directly connected to her, of course she would be a big presence in this transition season, indirectly and directly. Replacing the lead with a new character was a big gamble - which I think has mostly worked - but reneging on that after the showrunners committed to it would have been worse; so I was never afraid about Ryan's position.

[possibilities]

I wonder if Ryan's mom is in Arkham. How else would Alice suddenly know that she's alive?

I thought having Kate decide she doesn't want Sophie to come with her was a bit of a plot convenience. It made much more character sense for them to go off together to find Bruce. The entire show has portrayed them as OTP and regretting each time they've chosen not to stay together. But I accept that they didn't want to fire the actress who plays Sophie. Now if they'd just write her better, so it's worth it.

 

[Proteus]

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Of course but just do it better.

Does this all mean that we'll have to go at least 2 more years of an empty Wayne Enterprises? I can't deal with it just sitting there collecting dust like Starlabs.

Caroline Dries & her team don't have an ounce of talent, so this is what we get.

Or how about Alice saves Kate's life & then Kate leaves town abandoning her again, just like Ocean predicted?

All of this destroying Kate Kane just to make Wilder look good.

[Trini]

Ryan was already looking good; if anything, the mess with Kate was so that the Kane family would have a storyline for the season. Either way, the showrunner didn't need to make Kate's story as convoluted as she did.

 

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

Caroline Dries & her team don't have an ounce of talent, so this is what we get.

Or how about Alice saves Kate's life & then Kate leaves town abandoning her again, just like Ocean predicted?

All of this destroying Kate Kane just to make Wilder look good.

How is what Kate did making Ryan look good?

Please explain how Ryan is benefitting from Kate leaving Alice?

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

How is what Kate did making Ryan look good?

Please explain how Ryan is benefitting from Kate leaving Alice?

I don't agree with any of the logic below, but it's pretty straightforward. 

Kate is a better character than Ryan because take your picks of the following:

• She is from the comics and therefore legit and/or she has a lot of actual comics history that the TV writers can draw from to cover their inadequacy as writers
• She's a better fighter/smarter/tougher than Ryan and has the necessary background to fight crime at the Batwoman level (highly skilled military school near-graduate who went around the world training with experts) as opposed to having taught some martial arts classes
• She is not a slapdash assemblage of characteristics 
• The writers aren't using her to shove race/class/anti-cop propaganda/general wokeness down our throats
• The show was built around Kate -- her father, her sister, her ex-, her friend, her step-sister are the main regular characters, which makes interactions with Kate stronger, more meaningful and more interesting than interactions with Ryan could possibly be.
• The writers have made poor choices for Ryan, from having feelings for an active criminal to her being willing to talk trash about the Crows one second and then literally hiding from them the next.

Kate did two things that have the effect of propping up Ryan: giving Ryan her blessing to continue as Batwoman and leaving town. 

If Kate had stayed in Gotham, particularly as a regular, she would have outshined Ryan at every turn. There would be an open question about why she didn't repossess the Batsuit as it's hers and she would be the better Batwoman. Kate has better chemistry with the main cast and so Ryan would also be outdone in her civilian identity. Even if she was not a regular, there would be the question of why on any given week's adventure Kate wasn't lending a hand in or out of costume.

By leaving and giving Ryan her blessing to continue as Batwoman, Kate is being a puppet for TPTB and basically is them turning to the camera and saying "See, even Kate approves of Ryan Batwoman! So should you!" But the notion that Kate is going to go immediately on this quest to find Bruce doesn't make sense with Kate's character and the situation. Kate would never leave her sister at Arkham under these circumstances, -- with Alice having just rescued her, Alice showing signs of growing a conscience/sanity, Alice being in need of her. Nor would Kate abandon Mary, or her one true love Sophie so easily.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Trini]

It's amazing to me that Kate Kane played by Ruby Rose was the weakest lead so far in the Arrow-verse, but now that she's been gone she's suddenly 'better'.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't agree with any of the logic below, but it's pretty straightforward. 

Uh huh.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Kate is a better character than Ryan because take your picks of the following:

Most of that is subjective, and some just objectively wrong, and some the same can be said of both. (Not to mention the suppositions that may not be correct.)

The comic argument is especially silly, since this is a TV adaptation. Even the characters "from the comics" are not the characters from the comics. Having been in other media doesn't make the character better or worse. (But if people are really think that's necessary, DC has you covered!)

 

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Kate did two things that have the effect of propping up Ryan: giving Ryan her blessing to continue as Batwoman and leaving town. 

Which we knew was going to happen a year ago when they announced that they were replacing Kate Kane. This was going to happen no matter who they put in the suit since they weren't going to kill Kate. So it has nothing to do with Ryan as a character. The new lead was going to get propped.

But that doesn't "destroy" Kate for Ryan. People definitely should be upset about Kate getting mutilated and mind-wiped; but again, that didn't have anything to do with Ryan.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If Kate had stayed in Gotham, particularly as a regular, she would have outshined Ryan at every turn.

Outshine, no. Overshadow, probably.

Now, whether Kate's Bruce quest makes sense or not is up for debate (I think it does, since that was a thread introduced but never followed up on in the first season), but Ryan isn't part of that.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Trini
dropped word

[BeautifulFlower]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't agree with any of the logic below, but it's pretty straightforward. 

Kate is a better character than Ryan because take your picks of the following:

• She is from the comics and therefore legit and/or she has a lot of actual comics history that the TV writers can draw from to cover their inadequacy as writers
• She's a better fighter/smarter/tougher than Ryan and has the necessary background to fight crime at the Batwoman level (highly skilled military school near-graduate who went around the world training with experts) as opposed to having taught some martial arts classes
• She is not a slapdash assemblage of characteristics 
• The writers aren't using her to shove race/class/anti-cop propaganda/general wokeness down our throats
• The show was built around Kate -- her father, her sister, her ex-, her friend, her step-sister are the main regular characters, which makes interactions with Kate stronger, more meaningful and more interesting than interactions with Ryan could possibly be.
• The writers have made poor choices for Ryan, from having feelings for an active criminal to her being willing to talk trash about the Crows one second and then literally hiding from them the next.

Kate did two things that have the effect of propping up Ryan: giving Ryan her blessing to continue as Batwoman and leaving town. 

If Kate had stayed in Gotham, particularly as a regular, she would have outshined Ryan at every turn. There would be an open question about why she didn't repossess the Batsuit as it's hers and she would be the better Batwoman. Kate has better chemistry with the main cast and so Ryan would also be outdone in her civilian identity. Even if she was not a regular, there would be the question of why on any given week's adventure Kate wasn't lending a hand in or out of costume.

By leaving and giving Ryan her blessing to continue as Batwoman, Kate is being a puppet for TPTB and basically is them turning to the camera and saying "See, even Kate approves of Ryan Batwoman! So should you!" But the notion that Kate is going to go immediately on this quest to find Bruce doesn't make sense with Kate's character and the situation. Kate would never leave her sister at Arkham under these circumstances, -- with Alice having just rescued her, Alice showing signs of growing a conscience/sanity, Alice being in need of her. Nor would Kate abandon Mary, or her one true love Sophie so easily.

The things you listed are basically reasons YOU like Kate better. Noe of that is stuff used to prop up Ryan

[Chicago Redshirt]

To be clear, Kate was my least favorite part of S1 Batwoman. I think that they were pushing the "female Bruce Wayne" angle too hard, that Kate wasn't charismatic enough, and that Ruby wasn't a particularly good actor.

I like Ryan a lot better than Kate, and I actually enjoy a lot about the social justice angle (albeit recognizing that some of the execution wasn't the best.)

All I am saying is that I can readily understand why Kate fans would feel the way I outlined.

[possibilities]

I really do wonder why the show decided to go the route they did, of creating a whole new character instead of just doing the recast. They went to so much trouble to recast Kate Kane, only to get rid of her. They caused this problem for themselves. If they had just recast her and picked up where they left off, the fans would understand because Ruby Rose was gone and what did they want the show to do? But since they decided to go the route they did, they have managed to alienate half their fanbase.

 

I like Ryan, I'm fine with having her take over. But the split in the audience reaction was totally avoidable if the showrunners had not gone this convoluted route.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

To be clear, Kate was my least favorite part of S1 Batwoman. I think that they were pushing the "female Bruce Wayne" angle too hard, that Kate wasn't charismatic enough, and that Ruby wasn't a particularly good actor.

I like Ryan a lot better than Kate, and I actually enjoy a lot about the social justice angle (albeit recognizing that some of the execution wasn't the best.)

All I am saying is that I can readily understand why Kate fans would feel the way I outlined.

Okay, then I understand your comment better.

[diebartdie]

OK, this season was a MESS but we all pretty much expected it to be, right? I suppose TPTB could have done something really cool like, recast Kate + keep Javicia as Ryan but have Ryan be Nightwing. Let Kate angst over being so rich and out of touch with the common people while Ryan gets to be the gritty, woman of the streets, saving lives and opening minds to the oppression all around all of us. That actually might've worked but instead we got what we got.

I'm really torn because I freeking LOVE Ryan's Batwoman and love what SHE represents and I love the "found family" aspect but hell, I admit it kind of didnt really work. I mean, Mary was, as always, perfect and I could see Mary meeting and being best friends with Ryan. Luke though...I found it interesting that he character got so muddled when he's not related to Kate at all. I'm still puzzled by Luke's storyline this season. Sophie, sadly, got the stupidest storyline. I agree with whomever said Sophie shoulda just hopped n the back of Kate's bike and ridden on out of town with her gal. What the hell is she going to do moving forward? Alice's story was bonkers bannanapants and whew boy, psycho-lesbian drama alert! All of that just was such a gobblygook mess...I'd like to see Alice get her shit together and somehow become an anti-hero that helps our heroes and I'd like to see FAR LESS of her moving forward (a little of a good thing goes a long way and she is damn good). Bye Jacob, I hope Dugray Scott earned some nice pay checks and found it fitting his final scene was him LITERALLY phoning it in, bless him.

Whatever, I love the new Batwoman. She is beautiful and fun and funny and passionate and interesting and actually looks like she has some muscles, like she actually kick a little ass unlike Ruby who always looked like an underdeveloped 12 year old boy flailing about.

Was all the social commentary too much? I dont know, I feel like the show was trying to draw attention to things we as a society desperately NEED to pay attention to and do the work required to make things better for EVERYBODY so I didn't find it to be "too much", just a little hokey from time to time.

Last thing I'm going to say is this: this show will fail due to racism. Actually, no, that'snot right. I should have said it like this: Racism will destroy this show.

Edited June 29, 2021 by diebartdie

[ketose]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:43 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

We have Alice as a poor man's Joker and Safiyah as a bargain basement Ra's. We now have Tavaroff as Brand X Bane. Who else are we going to see going forward? The Puffin? Double-Visage? Feline Fellow?

I'd go with Egghead.

Edited June 29, 2021 by ketose

[akg]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:08 PM, possibilities said:

I wonder if Ryan's mom is in Arkham. How else would Alice suddenly know that she's alive?

Alice mentioned earlier in the episode (during the very stupid "you killed the first woman you ever met" conversation) that she had investigated Ryan's background when she realized they were enemies. I assumed that's when she found out about Ryan's mom but was saving that surprise for later.

 

[Trini]

On 6/27/2021 at 10:06 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

...

Ryan probably won't believe her. And how would Alice even know who Ryan's birth mother is. That is something to think about and hopefully she does.

 

1 hour ago, akg said:

Alice mentioned earlier in the episode (during the very stupid "you killed the first woman you ever met" conversation) that she had investigated Ryan's background when she realized they were enemies. I assumed that's when she found out about Ryan's mom but was saving that surprise for later.

Like, how would Alice even have the time and resources to find out this info?? She was pretty busy doing all sorts of stuff on and off screen. They needed a hook for the next season, but Alice being the one to get this info makes no sense.

[John Potts]

So Alice is in prison. I’m sure that will last. Unless she’s going to be Hannibal Lektor to Ryan’s Clarice Starling (obviously he escaped eventually, too).

Did like Black Mask, who was just unrepentantly evil and still out there (other than a scarred face, but that shouldn't be a problem). Not sure his "Fight the power!" plan was terribly well thought out, given he runs a multimillion dollar enterprise, but villains gotta villain, I guess.

Use of Snakebite to cure Kate's memory loss and turn her "back to the light" was actually almost clever.

On 6/28/2021 at 3:00 AM, scarynikki12 said:

Black Mask was giving me Joker vibes from his broadcast.

It was straight out of Batman (89)!

On 6/28/2021 at 3:00 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I wonder if we know Ryan’s mother.

Dare I hope that we’re getting Ivy next season?

I was wondering if her mother was Poison Ivy. It would give Ryan the family drama (gotta have that!) that Kate had with Alice in S1.

On 6/28/2021 at 5:00 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Even if we accept that Kate thoroughly looted/destroyed all the immediately available Batweapons, the Batfam should have been able to buy some commercially available devices in the time between Kate's escape and Black Mask shutting off the power.

It would have been fun to see Luke McGuyver-ing some alternative weapons from what he could buy at Target. I’m sure he could do it.

On 6/28/2021 at 12:29 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Mary's clinic has to rank as one of the worst places to work, right?

I'm not sure it's much worse than most places in Gotham, really, where if you live there, you are always ready for another Supervillain looking to make a statement ("Say it with mass murder - it's the Gotham way!" should probably be on a card). But I did like the way Mary walked out on her underling - she might as well have said, “I’ll go so that when he awakes and goes on the rampage he won’t hurt me!”

[possibilities]

Running an underground clinic for people who are afraid of the cops and/or the above ground medical establishment, is realistically likely to lead you to encounters with people who are either outlaws, wanted by outlaws, or otherwise marginalized and unprotected even in a non-Gotham city. So, while Gotham has a higher rate of Supervillains, I'm not sure Mary's clinic encountering them at a high rate is that unrealistic.

I went to get a routine test at one of the local hospital outpatient facilities in what is honestly a middle class, low crime rate small city, and they had INTENSE security-- locks on every door I passed through, receptionist behind glass, guard standing around.... Not all the medical places I've been around here have this level of "something must have happened here, ye gods why are they so afraid of the locals?" but it's not entirely unusual, either.