S02.E17: Kane, Kate

[Trini]

Batwoman struggles as Black Mask (guest star Peter Outerbridge) continues to raise the stakes with Circe (guest star Wallis Day) as his henchwoman. Alice and Safiyah (guest star Shivaani Ghai) cross paths once again.

Carl Seaton directed the episode written by Chad Fiveash and James Stoteraux.

Airdate: 6/20/21

[scarynikki12]

Yep spraying perfume in the eyes would hurt so nice improvisation Ryan.

I really like the scene with Ryan and Roman.

Ryan’s parole officer really sucks. 

It was nice of Circe to take us on a tour of the Batcave after betraying Team Batwoman. Let’s see we saw Bats’ lab, conference room, storage room (with a covered Batsuit), and the hazardous cabinet containing Mat Hatter’s hat, Bane’s mask, Pengy’s umbrella, Joker’s flower, and one of Ivy’s poison plants.

Safiyah clearly hasn’t ever seen a movie since she monologued at Alice. 

Luke, Sophie, and Mary work together to get out of the elevator. Yay teamwork!

[Primal Slayer]

This was kind of a meh episode. They really didnt think very hard to do anything different and every was very surface.

Alice just got her sister back but let her spend the entire episode mourn over her boyfriend! They could've used the episode to have her work with the Batteam and notice that Kate is very obviously lying about everything coming out of her mouth. They dont even have Kate try to fight against her Circe brainwash persona. The only weight in this game is that we know that she is supposed to be Kate. 

GCPD is owned by the bad guy! SHOCKER! We didnt just finish up a storyline where The Crows were pieces of crap and corrupt or anything. Playing this generic every cop is bad is boring. Also this is why you need a Jim Gordon running it, it should be more interesting than this people! 

The Batcave needs a serious redesign because it feels so small with all these small rooms where Batman cant even display his goodies to the world.

If they cant even bring ANY of these bat villains back then....I could barely care.

Oh and another "make the suit FIT YOU" 

[cambridgeguy]

Couldn't the GCPD have legitimately nailed Ryan for having that laptop (when you want to commit crime use the Surface!).  Planting all of those injectors seemed like overkill, especially since they were just going to kill her anyway after she turned down Black Mask.

Too bad the invincible Batsuit has been sliced and diced to pieces, but on the plus side Oliver, Sara, etc. all showed that you can still do the vigilante thing without one.  I wonder if they're going to do a more substantial redesign and wanted a reason for it.

[Primal Slayer]

5 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Couldn't the GCPD have legitimately nailed Ryan for having that laptop (when you want to commit crime use the Surface!).  Planting all of those injectors seemed like overkill, especially since they were just going to kill her anyway after she turned down Black Mask.

Too bad the invincible Batsuit has been sliced and diced to pieces, but on the plus side Oliver, Sara, etc. all showed that you can still do the vigilante thing without one.  I wonder if they're going to do a more substantial redesign and wanted a reason for it.

Why do something semi legitimate when everyone in this show just knows how to plant fake evidence on everyone? 

I dont know how Kate was supposed to fit in the costume anyway. It was fitted for Bruce, cut down for Kate, and cut even further down Ryan. All 3 very different body types/heights. She be wearing some highwaters and looking like a glorified child.

[BeautifulFlower]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Why do something semi legitimate when everyone in this show just knows how to plant fake evidence on everyone? 

I dont know how Kate was supposed to fit in the costume anyway. It was fitted for Bruce, cut down for Kate, and cut even further down Ryan. All 3 very different body types/heights. She be wearing some highwaters and looking like a glorified child.

Was the suit cut further down for Ryan in the show? Because she fitted perfectly the first time she put it on.

 

I'm sorry show, but am I supposed to care about Alice mourning Ocean? 

Seeing Sophie offer Ryan a place to stay and tell her that Kate being back doesn't mean she has to return everything was so nice to see. It also reminds me how people just started jumping to conclusions just from clips in the promo. I wish people would stop doing this. They always get mad over something they THINK will happen before actually seeing the episode. I wish Luke and Mary saw how Ryan was feeling though.

Speaking of Mary, I felt bad for her when Kate didn't really remember her early in the episode.

I'm not surprised Tavaroff is on Black Mask's payroll now. I hope Luke kicks his ass.

I didn't really care for Safiyah this episode. Also, how is it Alice's fault for all of your roses getting burned? Sure, she started it, but you clearly didn't have a good enough rescue plan. Seriously, all the roses just burned like that? You really had NO backups woman?

I know they all were just happy to "Kate" back, but Mary, Luke, and Sophie really screwed up. They knew she did not have ALL of her memories. I just wouldn't outright just trust her yet. Especially since there is no way she was in the bar for 10 hours. They should've questioned where she was before that.

Now who opens something with the biohazard symbol without proper protection. Girl, you don't know what's in there.

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Was the suit cut further down for Ryan in the show? Because she fitted perfectly the first time she put it on.

I dont see how it couldnt have lol. kate is 5'7, Ryan is 5'4 and it's a very form fitting suit. 

[possibilities]

I wish I didn't hate everything they're doing. 

[Jediknight]

On one hand I want Kate back, but Wallis Day is freaking great as a villain.

[possibilities]

They didn't want to get Ryan on the stolen laptop because they didn't want the laptop held as evidence, nor to have to answer any questions about it. Framing her for drugs is just easier.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Ryan’s parole officer really sucks. 

From a rational perspective, everything she said made sense. She has every reason to think buy into the notion that Ryan was guilty of the crime she served time for, and that she is guilty of the crime she's being accused of now, and that it's extra disappointing since Ryan was poised to get off of parole.

If you are like most people and are either ignorant of the corruption/incompetence of the Crows and GCPD, why would someone think Ryan was twice innocent? And if you know, as the parole officer probably should, that Ryan's ex was a pretty high level criminal mixed up in the Snakebite trade, it seems a lot more plausible that Ryan is in fact guilty.

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If you are like most people and are either ignorant of the corruption/incompetence of the Crows and GCPD, why would someone think Ryan was twice innocent? And if you know, as the parole officer probably should, that Ryan's ex was a pretty high level criminal mixed up in the Snakebite trade, it seems a lot more plausible that Ryan is in fact guilty.

But this is a Gotham where Batman had been established for years, the public would know about the GCPD's corruption.  And Jacob Kane disbanded the Crows because they were corrupt, and announced it at a press conference.

The public knows about the massive corruption in law enforcement.

[Chicago Redshirt]

37 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

But this is a Gotham where Batman had been established for years, the public would know about the GCPD's corruption.  And Jacob Kane disbanded the Crows because they were corrupt, and announced it at a press conference.

The public knows about the massive corruption in law enforcement.

Batman's being active doesn't necessarily translate into general knowledge or belief that GCPD is problematic in a way that would call into question Ryan's being arrested and claims that she was marked for death. Batman's issues with the cops as depicted in things like Batman Year One and Batman Begins is generally about cops being in the pocket of mobsters and letting them get away with stuff (and getting in his way), as opposed to the cops framing innocent people. I can't think of a Batman story that is about normal people getting accused of crimes they did not commit let alone targeted for assassination.

But even if for discussion's sake we agreed that the general public thought that GCPD was totally willing to frame and kill innocent people, that doesn't mean that a parole officer would also be skeptical of GCPD. I think it would be expected that they might be naive about the courts. It probably would be a little uncomfortable to think that you were part of a racist, murderous and unjust system.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Trini]

I wasn't expecting Kate to be perfectly fine, but I also wasn't expecting her to go full supervillain! Points for unpredictability; minus points for ... I don't like where this is going. I know some people are worried about this, but I really don't think Kate will be back as Batwoman any time soon (if ever).

All last episode Alice was the key to getting Kate back, etc., and then no scenes with her and Kate in this one??

I don't think the show has really given us any strong reasons for Safiyah to be so obsessed with Alice. She just likes messing with her? Trying to play 3D chess with a pychopath's emotions seems more trouble than it's worth -- and then it got her stabbed, so at this point, Safiyah just seems dumb.

Now I'm kinda hoping that Bruce and/or Alfred never come back, they'd probably be super-pissed at all the intrusions in the Batcave!

It was cool to see Ryan do some Batwoman action without the Batsuit. They should try and have more of that next season.

[AnimeMania]

Why does every room in the BatCave have a hundred years worth of dust and cobwebs? How long has Alfred been missing?

I like the fighting of Ryan outside of the BatSuit more than anything I have seen her do in the BatSuit. Probably because it was well-lit and not filmed at night where I can't see a damned thing.

[thuganomics85]

While I'm obviously glad that Ryan is still around, if Roman and the corrupt GCPD were really planning on taking her off the board "permanently", I don't see why the GCPD didn't just execute her during the sting and plant some kind of weapon and claim she drew on them.  Perhaps they were worried that the whole Luke/Tavaroff frame job would make it too obvious?  Or was Roman actually sincere about trying to recruit Ryan to his cause at first?

Whelp, it looks like Circe beat out Kate in the whole mind palace battle, because Kate was just straight up playing everyone and betrayed them with ease.  Of course, as much as I loved them, Luke, Mary, and Sophie really did make it easy by being so invested in getting the real Kate back that they let her pretty much get access to everything deadly.  Whoops!  Curious to see if the real Kate is still in there somewhere or if Circe is truly here to stay.  Wallis Day is great in the villain role though.  I mean this as a compliment when I say she really nails down the whole "crazy eyes" aspect of the unhinged psychopath character!

Silly me: when Tavaroff hesitated after Roman's big "epic" speech, I thought that they might go somewhere different with the character by having him be all "Yeah, I'm an bigoted asshole who abuses authority, but working for actual criminals is my limit here..", but nope!  He was just concerned about being another "cog in the wheel", so it seems like something big is in store for him now!

I swear, Safiyah might be the dumbest villain out there.  Did she really think her whole "We're even now, so let bygones be bygones and let us go back to the island together!" spiel would work on Alice of all people?!

The Ryan/Circe fight scene was fun, but man, it certainly looks like Circe is on another level fighting wise.  I guess it makes sense that she would have some of Kate's skills, but it was still weird seeing the main character just straight-up get beaten down, without the villain having to resort to any trickery or unfair advantages.

If Bruce ever does return, I actually wouldn't blame him if he revoked everyone's passes to the Batcave after this!

[Josh371982]

I was getting Bane from Batman and Robin in regards to Tavaroff for next week 

[sugarbaker design]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Wallis Day is great in the villain role though.  I mean this as a compliment when I say she really nails down the whole "crazy eyes" aspect of the unhinged psychopath character!

She really is.  Dangerous, menacing, unpredictable; It's a shame we get her on episode 17 of an 18 episode season.  I'm hoping she's the big bad for season 3.

Sophie didn't come off too good in this episode.  First she falls for Circe's act, hook, line and sinker, then she just lets her walk away while holding a crossbow.  Shoot the bitch!  Team Batwoman doesn't need Sophie, unlike Mary and Luke, she's totally ineffective.

[BeautifulFlower]

17 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

 

Sophie didn't come off too good in this episode.  First she falls for Circe's act, hook, line and sinker, then she just lets her walk away while holding a crossbow.  Shoot the bitch!  Team Batwoman doesn't need Sophie, unlike Mary and Luke, she's totally ineffective.

Seriously? Why only talk about Sophie? Mary and Luke didn't come off too good in this episode either. They ALL fell for the same act TOO. As for her not shooting "Circe", that is actually Kate without her memories. It doesn't matter who was holding that gun. None of them would've shot her because of who she REALLY is.  Ryan, Mary, and Luke didn't even try to stop her when she walked out. However, I guess you only saw Sophie in the batcave.

Look, I'm fine with people not liking Sophie. The problem is trying to call out Sophie for stuff that OTHER characters do as well. Why do they get a pass but she doesn't?

[sugarbaker design]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

They ALL fell for the same act TOO.

They sure did.  I guess I have higher standards for Sophie because she had a career in law enforcement.

10 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

It doesn't matter who was holding that gun.

Of course it does.  The one holding the gun (crossbow) was the one that could've stopped Circe.

 

11 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Ryan, Mary, and Luke didn't even try to stop her when she walked out.

Ryan had just gotten her ass handed to her by Circe.  Luke is a tech wiz, Mary is a medical wiz.  All 3 of them didn't have the crossbow.  Sophie rose to the top of the ranks of the crows and has decent aim.  Surely she could've aimed for Circe's legs.  If Alice were there, Circe would've been caught.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Seriously? Why only talk about Sophie? Mary and Luke didn't come off too good in this episode either. They ALL fell for the same act TOO. As for her not shooting "Circe", that is actually Kate without her memories. It doesn't matter who was holding that gun. None of them would've shot her because of who she REALLY is.  Ryan, Mary, and Luke didn't even try to stop her when she walked out. However, I guess you only saw Sophie in the batcave.

Look, I'm fine with people not liking Sophie. The problem is trying to call out Sophie for stuff that OTHER characters do as well. Why do they get a pass but she doesn't?

All three of them should be called out for falling for Kate's trickery, fair enough.

If the situation was that Mary or Luke had Kate at weaponspoint and Kate was just like, "You're not going to shoot me" and simply walked out with deadly Batvillain stuff, Mary and Luke would deserved to get called out too. (Although I do tend to think that despite their love for Kate, both Mary and Luke would have taken the shot because neither is in LOVE with Kate and both seem way more hardcore and practical than Sophie).

But the writers put Sophie in the position of being the only one of the Bat Team who had a weapon capable of easily stopping Kate and is an expert markswoman. In the actual situation, Ryan was flat on her ass, and Mary and Luke obviously are no match physically for Kate without a weapon. 

I understand that TPTB wanted Kate to escape to be in play for the season finale. But they could have accomplished that without having Sophie just sit there. Have Sophie fire and miss because Kate's able to dodge a shot. Or have Kate block the shot. Or even get wounded but manage to escape. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I understand that TPTB wanted Kate to escape to be in play for the season finale. But they could have accomplished that without having Sophie just sit there. Have Sophie fire and miss because Kate's able to dodge a shot. Or have Kate block the shot. Or even get wounded but manage to escape. 

Yeah, Kate needed to escape for plot, but they really should have set up the situation better to not make Sophie look bad. I think that out of the three, Sophie would the one most likely to actually take the shot, so maybe Luke should have had the crossbow instead.

In unrelated Kate shenanigans: so she really has no tattoos now? Roman should really focus on marketing his miracle burn cream instead of wasting time making Gotham even worse than it is.

[tennisgurl]

Was it me, or did everyone end up getting smacked this week with the stupid stick? I get that Mary, Sophie, and Luke were all probably blinded by their desperation to get Kate back, but they were all idiots for not suspecting that something was up with Kate sooner. Her memory was going in and out as she went back and fourth from Circe to Kate and Kate was clearly acting off, they should have at least been more cautious with her. I guess I will give them credit for surprising me, I didn't think that it would turn out that she was totally Circe for the whole episode, but then I wasn't the one who gave her full access to the Batcave. Alfred is going to be pissed when she sees how trashed the place is because everyone he left it with is a hundred kinds of gullible. Then they just let her waltz out of the Batcave with all of their villain memorabilia? Really? No one even tried for a non lethal shot or just to grab her and knock her out? Its bad enough that they handed someone who was just a super villain a day ago and is still clearly unstable at best a villain at worst the keys to the kingdom without a second thought, but they also just let her go with all of their stuff while they just sadly shake their heads? They could have at least had Sophie try to shoot and have Circe escape anyway or have them try to get her and she manages to get away, now it looks like whatever havoc Circe wrecks now, it could have been avoided if the Batfam had just been willing to try and stop her.

Luckily for the good guys, the bad guys were all being idiots too. I guess it was something in the water around Gotham this week, everyone was drinking stupid juice. If Roman owns the GCPD, why did he even bother with going through legal channels when he arrested Ryan, including calling in her non corrupt PO, when he could have just killed her? Or locked her up and threw away the key? Why did Circe just lock everyone in the elevator when she had knocked them out instead of killing them? Is there any reason Black Mask wants them alive other than because the plot says they have to stay alive? Circe and Roman had countless chances to permanently eliminate the only people apparently standing in the way of their total victory and they just kept choosing to walk away cackling instead of doing anything. 

Alice is the key to getting Kate back...too bad Alice is busy mourning her boyfriend and listening to Safiyah monologue at her. Apparently Safiyah found some of the stupid juice that everyone else was drinking and had a shot herself. I have no idea why she is so obsessed with Alice and bringing her back to her island, or why she would trust a woman who has betrayed her multiple times to come back with her, and after she had her boyfriend killed. Its not like Alice is known for holding grudges and being obsessed with revenge against people that did her wrong or anything, oh wait. What does Alice really bring to the table? She seems a lot more trouble then she's worth, between the vengeance and her general love of chaos. 

Despite all of the stupid spreading throughout Gotham, there were some parts of the episode that I thought worked. I liked getting to see Ryan take down some goons without her Batwoman suite, her scene talking with Roman was really good, and I am really glad that Sophie offered to let her stay with her while giving her as bit of a pep talk. Ryan dealing with feeling like she has just been a placeholder for Kate and that she was going to lose everything she gained as Batwoman was a really good subplot for her, its something I have been wanting them to address ever since Kate supposedly came back. I am also sad that it has taken us this long to bring Circe/new Kate in, Wallis Day is great as Circe and as Kate. She plays an awesome super villain. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by tennisgurl

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Circe and Roman had countless chances to permanently eliminate the only people apparently standing in the way of their total victory and they just kept choosing to walk away cackling instead of doing anything. 

Just like Batman in 1966.  Same Bat-time, Same Bat-channel!

[cambridgeguy]

7 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Circe and Roman had countless chances to permanently eliminate the only people apparently standing in the way of their total victory and they just kept choosing to walk away cackling instead of doing anything. 

Hey, fair is fair.  Team Batwoman doesn't really care about catching bad guys they have a personal connection to, so might as well keep them around for fun.  Consider Mary, who went to the trouble of tracking down Alice and apparently had no interest in capturing her even though she could have brought Ryan, Sophie, and/or used a taser, knockout darts, etc.  Sure, she's murdered a lot of people, including your mom, but no biggie.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Was it me, or did everyone end up getting smacked this week with the stupid stick? I get that Mary, Sophie, and Luke were all probably blinded by their desperation to get Kate back, but they were all idiots for not suspecting that something was up with Kate sooner. Her memory was going in and out as she went back and fourth from Circe to Kate and Kate was clearly acting off, they should have at least been more cautious with her. I guess I will give them credit for surprising me, I didn't think that it would turn out that she was totally Circe for the whole episode, but then I wasn't the one who gave her full access to the Batcave. Alfred is going to be pissed when she sees how trashed the place is because everyone he left it with is a hundred kinds of gullible. Then they just let her waltz out of the Batcave with all of their villain memorabilia? Really? No one even tried for a non lethal shot or just to grab her and knock her out? Its bad enough that they handed someone who was just a super villain a day ago and is still clearly unstable at best a villain at worst the keys to the kingdom without a second thought, but they also just let her go with all of their stuff while they just sadly shake their heads? They could have at least had Sophie try to shoot and have Circe escape anyway or have them try to get her and she manages to get away, now it looks like whatever havoc Circe wrecks now, it could have been avoided if the Batfam had just been willing to try and stop her.

Luckily for the good guys, the bad guys were all being idiots too. I guess it was something in the water around Gotham this week, everyone was drinking stupid juice. If Roman owns the GCPD, why did he even bother with going through legal channels when he arrested Ryan, including calling in her non corrupt PO, when he could have just killed her? Or locked her up and threw away the key? Why did Circe just lock everyone in the elevator when she had knocked them out instead of killing them? Is there any reason Black Mask wants them alive other than because the plot says they have to stay alive? Circe and Roman had countless chances to permanently eliminate the only people apparently standing in the way of their total victory and they just kept choosing to walk away cackling instead of doing anything. 

Alice is the key to getting Kate back...too bad Alice is busy mourning her boyfriend and listening to Safiyah monologue at her. Apparently Safiyah found some of the stupid juice that everyone else was drinking and had a shot herself. I have no idea why she is so obsessed with Alice and bringing her back to her island, or why she would trust a woman who has betrayed her multiple times to come back with her, and after she had her boyfriend killed. Its not like Alice is known for holding grudges and being obsessed with revenge against people that did her wrong or anything, oh wait. What does Alice really bring to the table? She seems a lot more trouble then she's worth, between the vengeance and her general love of chaos. 

Kate's escape is even worse when you think about it, because not only do Our Heroes let her walk out of the Batcave, but also get into a vehicle with the Batvillain stuff, drive to Black Mask Central and hand over the goods. I get in the moment that was shown not much could be done. But afterward, Ryan had had a chance for a second wind, and Our Heroes could get the trank gun or any other non-lethal weapons that were in the Cave (and don't tell me the one case that was cleared out was all there was) and stopped Kate.

For that matter, why did Kate show her Circe colors other than TPTB wanted her to? Surely she could have kept up the "I'm Good Kate with memory loss" bit indefinitely and just sneakily swiped the Batvillain stuff at her convenience.

I can buy Kate not killing Sophie, Luke and Mary because her true personality is holding her back. And I can buy Black Mask not killing Ryan because he genuinely thought that she might team up with him. 

The only explanations for Safiyah's behavior are a) she straight-up has the highest levels of stupidity and arrogance possible and/or b) she is letting li'l Safiyah do all the thinking. She supposedly has an army of assassins at her command and she presumably should learn from her mistake in trusting Alice, since that got her precious Desert Rose fields destroyed. I could buy that Safiyah is so consumed with lust/passion for Beth/Alice that she brainwashed her and Ocean because Beth dared not be in love with her, killed Ocean when brainwashing wasn't enough, and yet thinks "Hey, after all this now we can be together because we have the truest of loves."

[Trini]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The only explanations for Safiyah's behavior are a) she straight-up has the highest levels of stupidity and arrogance possible and/or b) she is letting li'l Safiyah do all the thinking. She supposedly has an army of assassins at her command and she presumably should learn from her mistake in trusting Alice, since that got her precious Desert Rose fields destroyed. I could buy that Safiyah is so consumed with lust/passion for Beth/Alice that she brainwashed her and Ocean because Beth dared not be in love with her, killed Ocean when brainwashing wasn't enough, and yet thinks "Hey, after all this now we can be together because we have the truest of loves."

I'm going to go with arrogance, because while it's been hinted at by other characters and even the writers, I don't think they've convincingly shown that Safiyah is *in love* (or even lust) with Alice. If anything, she's been mainly maternal towards her.

 

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Despite all of the stupid spreading throughout Gotham, there were some parts of the episode that I thought worked. I liked getting to see Ryan take down some goons without her Batwoman suite, her scene talking with Roman was really good, and I am really glad that Sophie offered to let her stay with her while giving her as bit of a pep talk. Ryan dealing with feeling like she has just been a placeholder for Kate and that she was going to lose everything she gained as Batwoman was a really good subplot for her, its something I have been wanting them to address ever since Kate supposedly came back. I am also sad that it has taken us this long to bring Circe/new Kate in, Wallis Day is great as Circe and as Kate. She plays an awesome super villain. 

I was glad for the affirmation from Sophie, too. And on another level I think it was an assurance from the writers to the audience about her character.

It was kinda sad when Ryan went back to her van. I guess she feels comfortable there, but I was like - girl, even if you're not Batwoman anymore, you can still do better than camping by the river! She could still work at Kate's bar, right?

[sugarbaker design]

50 minutes ago, Trini said:

It was kinda sad when Ryan went back to her van. I guess she feels comfortable there, but I was like - girl, even if you're not Batwoman anymore, you can still do better than camping by the river!

In a van, DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

[Quark]

I thought this was a very good episode, although Safiyyah is an extremely stupid villain. 

Wallis Day is doing an excellent job playing Circe. 

Looking forward to seeing what the finale brings.

[possibilities]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I do tend to think that despite their love for Kate, both Mary and Luke would have taken the shot because neither is in LOVE with Kate and both seem way more hardcore and practical than Sophie

They've both let Alice go plenty of times, though. I think they're all softies. It's simply a way for the show to keep the same old story going every episode. They're just adding more villains, and keeping them all in permanent juggling mode.

10 hours ago, Trini said:

 

In unrelated Kate shenanigans: so she really has no tattoos now? Roman should really focus on marketing his miracle burn cream instead of wasting time making Gotham even worse than it is.

It also apparently makes you a lot taller. Very impressive. He could be a bazillionaire! But I guess he's like Alice in that he prefers psychopathy to even wealth and adoration.

[immortalfrieza]

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

They've both let Alice go plenty of times, though. I think they're all softies. It's simply a way for the show to keep the same old story going every episode. They're just adding more villains, and keeping them all in permanent juggling mode.

The worst thing is they could've easily had Circe get away anyway without making Sophie and Co look like useless idiots. Just have Circe dodge the bolt, or if they really wanted to make her look like a badass, have her catch it out of the air, then run. In fact, 99 times out of a hundred it would only take a very VERY small change to avoid making characters in the show look like idiots and still had the same plot points happen.

Like maybe having Circe not be insanely obvious to Luke, Mary, and Sophie that she was not Kate by simply actually acting like Kate Kane. She was way too playful for Kate for one. Anyone who knew her for even just 5 minutes should've been able to figure it out.

Edited June 23, 2021 by immortalfrieza

[Lantern7]

In my head . . .

Parole Officer: I can't believe this! You had Snakebite! With intent to sell!

Ryan: I swear, that's not mine.

PO: That's what all guilty people say! And you had come so far! Shame on you. Shame! SHAME!!

Ryan: Look, that stuff was planted on me by GCPD. When you leave me alone, I will get killed. You have to believe me!

PO: And why should I believe a word from your lying mouth? What reason would these cops have to kill you? And they're not a corrupt one in the bunch! The Crows were the bad guys!

Ryan: (rolling her eyes) Because I'm Batwoman!

(long, awkward pause)

Ryan: I kinda stumbled into the gig.

PO: You have some nerve to make such a claim! What proof would you give me?!?

Cop #1: (barging in) Awright, Mz. Wilder We gotta take ya to Interrogation!

Cop #2: Yeah, we found the room where the cameras are busted and the walls are soundproof! Heh Heh!

Ryan: (makes the "Now Do You Believe Me?"  face)

PO: Um . . .  I think I need more time with my client.

Cops: (crack their knuckles)

Ryan: (sighs deeply)

(Ninety seconds and five unconscious dirty cops later . . .)

PO: I believe you Ryan Wilder (deep bow)

Ryan: Yeah, it's a hard story to accept. I totally-

PO: (remaining prone) I will do whatever you ask of me, Batwoman. Your wish shall be my command.

Ryan: Really, it's oka-

PO: (tossing a set of keys to Ryan) Please take my automobile! It's not the Batmobile, but you should find use for it!

Ryan: I got my van! Wait, no I don't. That's probably been impounded. Guess I will borrow your car! (rushes out of the room)

PO: (shouting) Godspeed, Batwoman! And I shall attempt to set you up with my attractive lesbian friends!

Ryan: (shouting back from a distance) Totally not necessary! But thanks!!!

In other news, Team Batwoman needs to step up their contingency game. It's more embarrassing for Luke the guy who let Tommy Elliott waltz into the Batcave because he looked like Bruce. Yeah, I get them thinking and hoping Kate was back to being Kate, but why give her the diaries? At least put a tracking device on her motorcycle!

Is Safiyah dead? She not only had Ocean killed, but she tossed Alice's butterfly knife into the dirty water. I think she had it coming.

"Kate Kane as Possible S3 Big Bad" is a great swerve, even if that puts Alice on a redemptive path I might as well start calling her "Sylar."

[Proteus]

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

In my head . . .

Parole Officer: I can't believe this! You had Snakebite! With intent to sell!

Ryan: I swear, that's not mine.

PO: That's what all guilty people say! And you had come so far! Shame on you. Shame! SHAME!!

Ryan: Look, that stuff was planted on me by GCPD. When you leave me alone, I will get killed. You have to believe me!

PO: And why should I believe a word from your lying mouth? What reason would these cops have to kill you? And they're not a corrupt one in the bunch! The Crows were the bad guys!

Ryan: (rolling her eyes) Because I'm Batwoman!

(long, awkward pause)

Ryan: I kinda stumbled into the gig.

PO: You have some nerve to make such a claim! What proof would you give me?!?

Cop #1: (barging in) Awright, Mz. Wilder We gotta take ya to Interrogation!

Cop #2: Yeah, we found the room where the cameras are busted and the walls are soundproof! Heh Heh!

Ryan: (makes the "Now Do You Believe Me?"  face)

PO: Um . . .  I think I need more time with my client.

Cops: (crack their knuckles)

Ryan: (sighs deeply)

(Ninety seconds and five unconscious dirty cops later . . .)

PO: I believe you Ryan Wilder (deep bow)

Ryan: Yeah, it's a hard story to accept. I totally-

PO: (remaining prone) I will do whatever you ask of me, Batwoman. Your wish shall be my command.

Ryan: Really, it's oka-

PO: (tossing a set of keys to Ryan) Please take my automobile! It's not the Batmobile, but you should find use for it!

Ryan: I got my van! Wait, no I don't. That's probably been impounded. Guess I will borrow your car! (rushes out of the room)

PO: (shouting) Godspeed, Batwoman! And I shall attempt to set you up with my attractive lesbian friends!

Ryan: (shouting back from a distance) Totally not necessary! But thanks!!!

In other news, Team Batwoman needs to step up their contingency game. It's more embarrassing for Luke the guy who let Tommy Elliott waltz into the Batcave because he looked like Bruce. Yeah, I get them thinking and hoping Kate was back to being Kate, but why give her the diaries? At least put a tracking device on her motorcycle!

Is Safiyah dead? She not only had Ocean killed, but she tossed Alice's butterfly knife into the dirty water. I think she had it coming.

"Kate Kane as Possible S3 Big Bad" is a great swerve, even if that puts Alice on a redemptive path I might as well start calling her "Sylar."

Alice put the special dagger in Safiyah & said she is keeping her alive because deaths not enough punishment for her.

[rogvortex58]

Watching Kate (though brainwashed) beat the imposter’s ass was definitely satisfying. Even more satisfying was seeing her steal her own suit back from the one who stole it in the first place.

Loved seeing Kate back in the cave and her own apartment again. Hopefully she stays there. Or she can move in with Sophie.

The fact that “Circe” still hasn’t been able to kill anyone yet is proof that deep down she’s still Kate. So everyone shouldn’t write her off yet just to sooth Randomwoman’s ego. Although I suspect the only one who will be able to bring her back is Alice.

Glad they got the Safiyah drama out of the way. Alice doesn’t need any distractions while she’s trying to save her sister.

Edited June 27, 2021 by rogvortex58

[Trini]

14 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

In other news, Team Batwoman needs to step up their contingency game. It's more embarrassing for Luke the guy who let Tommy Elliott waltz into the Batcave because he looked like Bruce. Yeah, I get them thinking and hoping Kate was back to being Kate, but why give her the diaries? At least put a tracking device on her motorcycle!

Well, if they ever get to cross over with The Flash, at least they'll be able to talk about letting imposters into headquarters with Barry!

14 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"Kate Kane as Possible S3 Big Bad" is a great swerve,

I think it worked for this episode, but I don't think there's any way they can (or should) make Kate/Circe the big bad. I think we'll have Kate back, but I don't like that it might be at the last minute. Turning your former lead character into a different person was a weird and unnecessary choice, and I hope they reverse it soon. Although it has been compelling at times.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:26 AM, rogvortex58 said:

Watching Kate (though brainwashed) beat the imposter’s ass was definitely satisfying. Even more satisfying was seeing her steal her own suit back from the one who stole it in the first place.

Loved seeing Kate back in the cave and her own apartment again. Hopefully she stays there. Or she can move in with Sophie.

The fact that “Circe” still hasn’t been able to kill anyone yet is proof that deep down she’s still Kate. So everyone shouldn’t write her off yet just to sooth Randomwoman’s ego. Although I suspect the only one who will be able to bring her back is Alice.

Glad they got the Safiyah drama out of the way. Alice doesn’t need any distractions while she’s trying to save her sister.

Kate is a thief herself. Bruce did not leave any of those things for her. Kate being his cousin doesn't give her the right to those things. So you can stop calling Ryan a thief. Especially as Luke and Mary granted her permission to use those things.

 

[TV Anonymous]

Looking at Wallis Day in tank top, where did all the tattoos go? AFAIK, the injury was on the face and that was where they did the treatment, Alice style. It would have been a major undertaking to remove all those full-body tattoos.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

Looking at Wallis Day in tank top, where did all the tattoos go? AFAIK, the injury was on the face and that was where they did the treatment, Alice style. It would have been a major undertaking to remove all those full-body tattoos.

To be fair, the only reason Kate had tattoos is because Ruby had tattoos they didn't feel like covering up. I guess the show just wants us to pretend that Kate never had tattoos in the first place with Wallis

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Looking at Wallis Day in tank top, where did all the tattoos go? AFAIK, the injury was on the face and that was where they did the treatment, Alice style. It would have been a major undertaking to remove all those full-body tattoos.

I think they showed burns on her neck and it looked to be continuing under her clothes so it was implied that it was most/all of her body.

The tattoos are gone mainly because that’s a Ruby thing but also demonstrates the effectiveness of the Sionis burn cream.

[John Potts]

Slightly unfortunately, I watched the Finale before this one, so I knew the twist going in. Still, everyone was way too trusting that they had Kate back. Didn’t the previous episode end with Alice driving off with Jake? What happened to that road trip?

If they were planning on killing Ryan, why arrest her and kill her (presumably) “Trying to escape”? Shoot her in the van and say she was “Resisting Arrest” (other than "because then we'd have to recast Batwoman again")! Has nobody in Gotham read the Evil Overlord List?

On 6/21/2021 at 3:37 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

how is it Alice's fault for all of your roses getting burned? Sure, she started it, but you clearly didn't have a good enough rescue plan. Seriously, all the roses just burned like that? You really had NO backups woman?

 

On 6/21/2021 at 7:21 AM, Trini said:

Trying to play 3D chess with a psychopath's emotions seems more trouble than it's worth -- and then it got her stabbed, so at this point, Safiyah just seems dumb.

For a female version of Ra'z al-Ghul (sp?), you do wonder how she's remained in charge for so long!

On 6/21/2021 at 7:01 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

for discussion's sake we agreed that the general public thought that GCPD was totally willing to frame and kill innocent people, that doesn't mean that a parole officer would also be skeptical of GCPD. I think it would be expected that they might be naive about the courts.

If she's working as a Parole Officer, she has to be doing it out of dedication (especially in Gotham) because there's no money in it and the system is stacked against your parolee making it as a "productive member of society". If she was naive, it's more likely she'd be always prepared to believe her clients, not be sceptical of them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:22 AM, John Potts said:

Slightly unfortunately, I watched the Finale before this one, so I knew the twist going in. Still, everyone was way too trusting that they had Kate back. Didn’t the previous episode end with Alice driving off with Jake? What happened to that road trip?

If they were planning on killing Ryan, why arrest her and kill her (presumably) “Trying to escape”? Shoot her in the van and say she was “Resisting Arrest” (other than "because then we'd have to recast Batwoman again")! Has nobody in Gotham read the Evil Overlord List?

 

...

If she's working as a Parole Officer, she has to be doing it out of dedication (especially in Gotham) because there's no money in it and the system is stacked against your parolee making it as a "productive member of society". If she was naive, it's more likely she'd be always prepared to believe her clients, not be sceptical of them.

Black Mask was clearly hoping to flip Ryan. Of course, it would have made sense to kill her immediately after it became clear that she wasn't going to flip as opposed to staging a prison murder. But I suppose there's an argument to wanting to not risk a Jim Gordon-like cop finding out the truth if the killing happened under circumstances that the corrupt cops didn't completely control.

There are lots of potential reasons why Parole Officer could be remaining in her job that would not mean that she would be inclined to believe her clients, or believe that police are capable of doing a murder-for-hire plot. One can't fairly assume her motivation is "dedication" just on the presumption that being a Gotham parole officer doesn't pay much. Perhaps she likes the power trip of lording things over parolees. Perhaps the job pays a lot of money by her standards. Perhaps she's staying in the job because it's got excellent benefits. Maybe she's doing the job because it allows her to be a functional alcoholic. 

Her motivations for doing the job don't really matter in terms of whether she believes Ryan. She thinks Ryan to be lying about her innocence in the first place. It seems reasonable that will color her belief about Ryan's credibility in general. Then when Ryan tells a story that she is Batwoman and the cops are trying to kill her for it, it makes sense for Parole Officer to be cynical. It shouldn't make all that much sense from Parole Officer's perspective for Black Mask to wait to kill her in prison, much as you argued, when he could hypothetically have killed her prior. It doesn't make sense for her to be Batwoman because how would she have gotten the suit? We the viewers know that Ryan is telling the truth, but there's no particular reason for Parole Officer to.

Even if we accept for discussion's sake that someone who does that job would be generally inclined to trust clients, there's still the possibility that Parole Officer is disinclined to believe Ryan. for those reasons. 

[possibilities]

I have never heard of parole officers being inclined to believe their parolees, but even if that were true, how many would believe someone who claimed to be a superhero who was being framed? Not just that they were framed,  but that they were a superhero! It sounds crazy, even in a city where superheroes exist.

[Rahul]

This episode confused me. By the end I was left wondering if that was really Kate or Circe. How is this show explaining away the pieces of parietal skull bone that were found in Julia's investigation which were a DNA match to Kate?

[immortalfrieza]

On 9/11/2021 at 11:01 AM, Rahul said:

This episode confused me. By the end I was left wondering if that was really Kate or Circe. How is this show explaining away the pieces of parietal skull bone that were found in Julia's investigation which were a DNA match to Kate?

They didn't find anything, Enigma just brainwashed Julia into believing that they did. She tries to look back into it later on only to keep hitting roadblocks until Enigma just brainwashes Julia again into leaving. It's pretty clearly explained I think in the episodes where Julia leaves.

[Trini]

46 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

They didn't find anything, Enigma just brainwashed Julia into believing that they did. She tries to look back into it later on only to keep hitting roadblocks until Enigma just brainwashes Julia again into leaving. It's pretty clearly explained I think in the episodes where Julia leaves.

No, that was NOT clearly explained. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't just on Julia's word that bone fragments were found and identified as Kate's.