S01.E07: Happy Birthday, Kate Wallis

[TattleTeeny]

I was wondering why they’d pick that spot for an emergency pee situation.

[mandymax]

19 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

And while being held captive is super bad it doesn't look like he sexually assaulted her - so why keep her? 

Remember the grilled cheese she ate that was obviously drugged?  She was slumped against the wall, and Martin came in and told her, "Don't worry, this part will be over soon."  I've always wondered what he meant by that.

Did Martin assault her?

Did Annabelle assault her?

God forbid, was there some sort of film made of her?

Something completely different?

[Cinnabon]

19 minutes ago, mandymax said:

Remember the grilled cheese she ate that was obviously drugged?  She was slumped against the wall, and Martin came in and told her, "Don't worry, this part will be over soon."  I've always wondered what he meant by that.

Did Martin assault her?

Did Annabelle assault her?

God forbid, was there some sort of film made of her?

Something completely different?

I assumed he raped/assaulted her at that time.

[Aradea831]

I think the bad guy thing meant Kate needed a "bad guy" to stand up for herself. We see in the earlier episode with her lawyers that she is dead set to do everything she can to prepare for court against Jeanette. I think Joy thought if she sent the Lair note it would fire Kate up to do all the things her mom thought she should be doing like the tv show ect. As far as us seeing it pre kidnapping I think we do see Kate do this when exposing her Mom to her Dad. 

[TattleTeeny]

But what did Kate’s mom think happened to the paper jam? Does she think printers totally devour it?!

[Blue Plastic]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:26 AM, PatsyB said:

I enjoy this show, but I'm starting to feel like the story is dragging. At this stage, I'm hoping Annabelle is an actual person and not just a disassociative state Kate was in because that would at least be a surprise.

Me too. At this point a dissociative state explanation feels kind of cliche and would be another factor to be used against Kate in the lawsuit.

It was weird to randomly see Janette toward the end of a Kate-centric episode.

I don’t really like any of Kate’s family.

Kind of looked like Kate was over Jamie even before she got kidnapped. Kind of surprised she tried to take back up with him, even if only briefly, after she was returned home.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Blue Plastic
Add

[peachmangosteen]

 

4 hours ago, mandymax said:

Remember the grilled cheese she ate that was obviously drugged?  She was slumped against the wall, and Martin came in and told her, "Don't worry, this part will be over soon."  I've always wondered what he meant by that.

Did Martin assault her?

Did Annabelle assault her?

God forbid, was there some sort of film made of her?

Something completely different?

 

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I assumed he raped/assaulted her at that time.

I assumed that as well, especially since that was the first ep to have the RAINN ad at the end. 

[Stiggs]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

But what did Kate’s mom think happened to the paper jam? Does she think printers totally devour it?!

I was like...did she print multiple copies in case one blew away? 🤣🤣 And then thought nobody would ever try to de-jam the printer?

[moonshine71]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:41 AM, TattleTeeny said:

But it may not be admissible, considering the way it was obtained?

I don't know that It really needs to be admissible.

1-It gives Jeanette's lawyers a line of questioning to go after. 

2-It can easily be leaked to the press.

3-I have a lot of sympathy for Kate, but I don't consider this victim shaming. It in no way excuses what Martin did to her. We don't know what exactly her story was about how she ended up there, but it appears that this would deviate from whatever that story was. At the very least it paints her recollections of her abduction as unreliable. If Jeanette IS being wrongly accused, she has every right to point to that.

[moonshine71]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

 

 

I assumed that as well, especially since that was the first ep to have the RAINN ad at the end. 

I assumed that at first too, but didn't she wake up to find her room had been heavily stocked with food, toiletries, etc.? I felt like it was a misdirect, too make us assume he was assaulting her, and then find out that he used the time to stock her up, so he wouldn't have to come down and risk another escape attempt for a while. I guess he could have done both, but I get the feeling he's trying to break her down until she submits "willingly".

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

Kind of looked like Kate was over Jamie even before she got kidnapped. Kind of surprised she tried to take back up with him, even if only briefly, after she was returned home.

I assumed, irrespective of her pre-kidnapping feelings, that getting back with Jamie was primarily about re-joining/resuming her life from before because she thought she should or needed to or believed she could will herself to feel normal if she did so.

[moonshine71]

On Mallory.

Sorry, but count me in the camp that just doesn't care for her.

I like Harley, she seems sweet and I don't want to totally shit on her acting, but her trying to play "edgy" is just...😒

1. Joy is an asshole, but if some teen were to come in my home and dismissively talk to me and shut me down when I was trying to discuss a lawsuit that will affect my whole family w/ my child, that kid is going straight the fuck out the door and not coming back. And I just don't buy Harley in that "tough girl" turn.

2  A 16/17 yr old assistant manager can just shut down that place of business "for maintenance" ...😒. Please. I guess the actual manager or owner won't even bother to ask what that maintenance actually was or if there is a bill to be paid, they're just going accept the loss of hundreds of dollars(maybe more, Kate said the place is always packed) without question...

3. I don't even like '93 Mallory, I thought Jeanette was on the nail when she was describing her as pushy.

[TattleTeeny]

I think leaking to the press is a different story than having something on purpose and that saving a so-called piece of evidence to whip out at a crucial “a-ha” moment in court may be a thing of TV and movies. Either way, I’m not any kind of authority on this kind of thing, but —and like someone pointed out, this may not even apply here—one side is supposed to share certain types of evidence with the other.

[ZootSuitWyatt]

43 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I think leaking to the press is a different story than having something on purpose and that saving a so-called piece of evidence to whip out at a crucial “a-ha” moment in court may be a thing of TV and movies. Either way, I’m not any kind of authority on this kind of thing, but —and like someone pointed out, this may not even apply here—one side is supposed to share certain types of evidence with the other.

I'm not a lawyer but I also don't think real cases go to trial as often as they do on tv, so maybe having the chat is the kind of thing that might make the other side more willing to settle out of court? It's TV so they probably want a dramatic courtroom scene though.

[Anela]

9 hours ago, Aradea831 said:

I think the bad guy thing meant Kate needed a "bad guy" to stand up for herself. We see in the earlier episode with her lawyers that she is dead set to do everything she can to prepare for court against Jeanette. I think Joy thought if she sent the Lair note it would fire Kate up to do all the things her mom thought she should be doing like the tv show ect. As far as us seeing it pre kidnapping I think we do see Kate do this when exposing her Mom to her Dad. 

I can't remember why she told on her mother, but her mum was in the wrong there. I thought that her anger was valid, not just looking for a bad guy. I think anyone overhearing what her dad was talking about, to another woman, could have misconstrued what he said. She admitted that she was wrong there, and then her mother used it against her, to protect herself.

The argument itself broke my heart, though, because I've been at that point with my own mother, when she was alive (and it was a place that I never thought we would be). 

Someone asked where her biological dad is: her mum said that her stepdad met her when she was a young widow.

[CrazyDog]

There was a passing comment (from Joy, I think) in the earlier episodes that Kate's biological dad passed away when she was little.

5 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

I assumed that at first too, but didn't she wake up to find her room had been heavily stocked with food, toiletries, etc.? I felt like it was a misdirect, too make us assume he was assaulting her, and then find out that he used the time to stock her up, so he wouldn't have to come down and risk another escape attempt for a while. I guess he could have done both, but I get the feeling he's trying to break her down until she submits "willingly".

Was she drugged the one time, or multiple times? I honestly don't remember though I thought the show alluded to it happening more than once. The show has been pretty vague with what it's alluded to with Martin and Kate, though I think it may be as simple as they just don't want to show more, and are letting the ads and PSAs at the end speak for themselves.

Though I also initially thought that Martin's comment about this part being over soon may have referred to her being drugged. It's so hard to know how much to read into things with this show. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by CrazyDog

[BingeyKohan]

This episode was one of the weaker ones, especially for a Kate episode. We established she went to Martin’s willingly, but most of us suspected that anyway. Though wasn’t there a flashback where she was in a red dress and heels seeming like she had just been locked in the basement? Surely she didn’t pack that so maybe he has it already and makes her wear it for a special night? Sick. 

I mostly like Kate’s Dad but him drinking the Joy Kool-Aid and being excited about Kate going on Fauxprah Winfrey makes me lose some respect for him (or think it’s just inconsistent writing.) He seems level headed enough to know that national attention that could go very wrong is not what Kate needs.

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

I have a lot of sympathy for Kate, but I don't consider this victim shaming. It in no way excuses what Martin did to her. We don't know what exactly her story was about how she ended up there, but it appears that this would deviate from whatever that story was. At the very least it paints her recollections of her abduction as unreliable. If Jeanette IS being wrongly accused, she has every right to point to that.

This.

9 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

The show has been pretty vague with what it's alluded to with Martin and Kate, though I think it may be as simple as they just don't want to show more, and are letting the ads and PSAs at the end speak for themselves.

I think this is it. I think Martin almost certainly has been assaulting Kate, but I don't think the show wants to explicitly show that, which I thank them for.

[mamadrama]

I loved the mirror of the green stone promise ring from Jamie vs the green ring pop from Mallory. 

[TattleTeeny]

The front of Martin's house looks like an apartment complex to me. I am not saying that I think it is one--just making a barely relevant statement.

[BingeyKohan]

9 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

--just making a barely relevant statement.

I feel like I could qualify everything I say, online or IRL, with this.

[mandymax]

On 5/27/2021 at 2:17 PM, Cinnabon said:

I assumed he raped/assaulted her at that time.

I did, too - at first.  But then I thought about the way Martin said it - "Don't worry, THIS PART will be over soon."  As though this was just one step in a longer process.  So it no longer seems like an assault to me.  Plus, Martin would probably not want to think of it as being "over soon," given the extent he's gone to to finally have Kate in the palm of his hand.  He'd want to think of it in a romantic context and make it last as long as possible.

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, mandymax said:

I did, too - at first.  But then I thought about the way Martin said it - "Don't worry, THIS PART will be over soon."  As though this was just one step in a longer process.  So it no longer seems like an assault to me.  Plus, Martin would probably not want to think of it as being "over soon," given the extent he's gone to to finally have Kate in the palm of his hand.  He'd want to think of it in a romantic context and make it last as long as possible.

I agree. I think it's highly likely that he sexually assaulted her at some point, but I don't think it was then. I think he was referencing being drugged. With his whole "you need to eat" and "I'm not going to force my way in" he seems to me to be the type of crazy who would actually try to "romance" her. The dude probably convinced himself that he's in love with her or that He's her protector. He's a nutcase for sure, but not all nuts go about stuff the same way.

People have all sorts of fucked up reasons for kidnapping and holding someone. This reminds me a lot of the book THE COLLECTOR. In that book he kidnapped a woman who he thought was beautiful and perfect, not necessarily because he wanted to assault her but because he wanted to possess her. It wasn't about anything physical, it was about power and the desire to OWN. And in the Jayme Closs abduction he had planned out everything down to the wire, but his desire and obsession was to kidnap. He hadn't planned anything beyond that. Once he had murdered her parents, kidnapped her, and had Jayme in his house he didn't seem to know what to do with her. I get the same idea with Martin. He seems to be feeling his way around. I think that's what Kate meant by them having to 'learn their roles." He'd never abducted before, or held someone prisoner, and she'd never been a prisoner. Those guys are often the most volatile. She's lucky she got out of there alive. So was Jayme. 

[JenE4]

10 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I agree. I think it's highly likely that he sexually assaulted her at some point, but I don't think it was then. I think he was referencing being drugged. With his whole "you need to eat" and "I'm not going to force my way in" he seems to me to be the type of crazy who would actually try to "romance" her. The dude probably convinced himself that he's in love with her or that He's her protector. He's a nutcase for sure, but not all nuts go about stuff the same way.

People have all sorts of fucked up reasons for kidnapping and holding someone. This reminds me a lot of the book THE COLLECTOR. In that book he kidnapped a woman who he thought was beautiful and perfect, not necessarily because he wanted to assault her but because he wanted to possess her. It wasn't about anything physical, it was about power and the desire to OWN. And in the Jayme Closs abduction he had planned out everything down to the wire, but his desire and obsession was to kidnap. He hadn't planned anything beyond that. Once he had murdered her parents, kidnapped her, and had Jayme in his house he didn't seem to know what to do with her. I get the same idea with Martin. He seems to be feeling his way around. I think that's what Kate meant by them having to 'learn their roles." He'd never abducted before, or held someone prisoner, and she'd never been a prisoner. Those guys are often the most volatile. She's lucky she got out of there alive. So was Jayme. 

That’s a good point. Martin may have never had any intention of kidnapping Kate—but she just so happened to show up at his door. He was inappropriate in some capacity with a girl from Widows Falls, but probably similarly to how he was “befriending” Kate and taking her scrunchy. Even though it can be seen as grooming, he may have never tried to take it beyond the inappropriate friendship, despite him being obsessed. He wasn’t a kidnapper or probably not an abuser either...until this “fated” opportunity landed on his threshold. Though, I’m not saying this character is innocent here. It’s more like we’re seeing how it escalated. Someone’s not “a murderer” until they murder someone, but in retrospect sometimes you can look back and see the signs that it was coming. Martin wasn’t a “kidnapper” until the kid just happened to show up, and then based on this history we see with him, in his mind he’s “protecting” Kate. I bet we’re going to see Kate happily staying there for a day or two in an extra bedroom, and it’s only when she starts questioning maybe she should go home because her parents would be worried or she wants to start school that Martin decides he’s going to “protect” her by locking her in while he goes to work.

Edited May 30, 2021 by JenE4

[Jax7917]

This is a long shot ... but what if Kate is Annabelle , or has Annabelle as one of her personalities ? What if Martin wasn’t crazy at all , and Kate made this all up ( not on purpose , but because she has a mental illness .) we’ve already seen that she lied about how it all started , also that she lied about ever having contact with him beforehand . We saw that she had a crush on him and we also saw that he acted as a friend toward her but as a teacher to Jeanette . We’ve also seen that she doesn’t remember a lot from it .. and the fact that she “ saw” Jeanette but most likely didn’t .. it could all add up . Maybe she saw Jeanette was trying to be like her and steal her life and she wanted revenge . Like I said , most likely not .. but it would make a good twist . 
 

edited to ask : why did Kate and Jamie end up at Martins house and why was he throwing up in his bushes ? They never showed them dropping Jamie off , just showed Martin and Kate in the car together . Maybe Jamie was never there to begin with ? 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Jax7917

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, JenE4 said:

That’s a good point. Martin may have never had any intention of kidnapping Kate—but she just so happened to show up at his door. He was inappropriate in some capacity with a girl from Widows Falls, but probably similarly to how he was “befriending” Kate and taking her scrunchy. Even though it can be seen as grooming, he may have never tried to take it beyond the inappropriate friendship, despite him being obsessed. He wasn’t a kidnapper or probably not an abuser either...until this “fated” opportunity landed on his threshold. Though, I’m not saying this character is innocent here. It’s more like we’re seeing how it escalated. Someone’s not “a murderer” until they murder someone, but in retrospect sometimes you can look back and see the signs that it was coming. Martin wasn’t a “kidnapper” until the kid just happened to show up, and then based on this history we see with him, in his mind he’s “protecting” Kate. I bet we’re going to see Kate happily staying there for a day or two in an extra bedroom, and it’s only when she starts questioning maybe she should go home because her parents would be worried or she wants to start school that Martin decides he’s going to “protect” her by locking her in while he goes to work.

Conversations like this have been a little rocky because some people read them as victim blaming. I don't see that, though. As you said, I see them as understanding how things escalated from a plot perspective. 

Regardless of how things happened, Kate is still the victim and Martin was still highly inappropriate with her before he abducted her. Still, it's been interesting to watch how things have unfolded. 

Kate said that her mom taught her to be trusting, but her mom also treated her like an adult when she was basically still a kid. Having a "dinner party" for her birthday without inviting Kate's friends and boyfriend? Making her attend garden parties that are full of adults? Even Martin said he thought she was an adult at first. IMO making Kate act and appear as an adult and setting unreasonable expectations from her probably fucked with her head and also had its own hand in grooming her.

My mom did that to me. I was expected to look and behave like an adult from the time I was 12. It's no wonder I developed crushes on adult men-I felt like an adult myself. I remember being 16 and having "crushes" on men. I think that's probably pretty common. Lots of the 'teen idols" are really adults. I probably even flirted. It was fun, especially when they seemed to respond with a look or something. My romanticized ideation of them and the fantasies I had were not rooted in reality, though. I daydreamed about them finding me attractive and wanting a relationship with me, but everything stopped there: the fantasy. In retrospect I'm probably damn lucky that I didn't end up assaulted or abused. Regardless of what Kate might have felt or what she may have done, she's still the victim and he's still the villain. He clearly had issues long before she showed up at his door. Poor Kate had no idea she was walking into the lion's den. 

[Cranberry]

On 5/30/2021 at 11:17 AM, Jax7917 said:

This is a long shot ... but what if Kate is Annabelle , or has Annabelle as one of her personalities ? What if Martin wasn’t crazy at all , and Kate made this all up ( not on purpose , but because she has a mental illness .) we’ve already seen that she lied about how it all started , also that she lied about ever having contact with him beforehand . We saw that she had a crush on him and we also saw that he acted as a friend toward her but as a teacher to Jeanette .

I would absolutely hate that. Regardless of what Kate did or didn't do, Martin was clearly grooming her. A "friend" doesn't clutch an underaged girl's scrunchie like it's a precious treasure, or tell her he mistook her for an adult, clearly conditioning her to think of herself as mature enough to date an older guy. To have the show pull some kind of "the predator was a good guy all along and the underaged girl is the crazy one!" thing would be Pretty Little Liars levels of Not Okay.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I would absolutely hate that. Regardless of what Kate did or didn't do, Martin was clearly grooming her. A "friend" doesn't clutch an underaged girl's scrunchie like it's a precious treasure, or tell her he mistook her for an adult, clearly conditioning her to think of herself as mature enough to date an older guy. To have the show pull some kind of "the predator was a good guy all along and the underaged girl is the crazy one!" thing would be Pretty Little Liars levels of Not Okay.

And the simple explanation as to why he acted like a "teacher" to Jeanette and a "friend" to Kate is that he was grooming the latter and wasn't interested in the former. 

[dariafan]

On 5/26/2021 at 6:20 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly I don’t know who I hate more at this point: Harris for being a monster, Joy for being the absolute WORST, Ash because her deception is about to screw Kate over big time, or Jeanette and her brother who are stealing Kate’s private conversation to smear her. All of them are revictimizing Kate AGAIN. Even if Jeanette is innocent, it’s still pretty low.

I don’t blame Kate for hiding the fact that she went to Harris on her own. People always find some way to blame the victim and say she was asking for it. He was grooming and manipulating her, and he still held her against her will when she wanted to leave. She was a child, he was an adult. End of story.

Kate’s stepdad deserves better.

Mallory’s roller rink birthday surprise for Kate was sweet. I really hope she doesn’t turn out to be bad, because I continue to like her and Kate’s friendship. 

I can see why she wouldn’t admit to go.  I mean the cops were shocked a parent ( Greg ) was expecting to be in the room when they questioned a minor.    She was under the age of consent 

[Cinnabon]

12 hours ago, dariafan said:

I can see why she wouldn’t admit to go.  I mean the cops were shocked a parent ( Greg ) was expecting to be in the room when they questioned a minor.    She was under the age of consent 

The age of consent? What? She was kidnapped and assaulted. Regardless of age, it was illegal for a school employee to be having a “relationship “ with a young teen. And I don’t think the police were shocked that the parents wanted to sit in. That’s the law.

[KaveDweller]

18 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

The age of consent? What? She was kidnapped and assaulted. Regardless of age, it was illegal for a school employee to be having a “relationship “ with a young teen. And I don’t think the police were shocked that the parents wanted to sit in. That’s the law.

The police definitely were surprised. They showed up and asked Jeanette to come in for questioning. When Greg walked outside with her, the copy was all, "Oh, you're planning on coming too?"

It was super weird, because as you said, it is the law.

[Spartan Girl]

I rewatched the episode tonight and while I don’t think we should read too much in the similarities between the green promise ring in 1993 and the green ring pops in 1995, it kind of shows how differently Jamie and Mallory handled Kate’s birthday. Jamie’s green promise ring appeared romantic, but he killed it by making it all about him, getting drunk at the mall and making her late for her birthday dinner. Mallory, on the other hand, could see that Kate needed a break from the lawsuit/therapy drama and arranged it so one day for herself just to let loose and have fun, especially since her past two birthdays were horrible. And even though it was also their “friendversary”, she made sure the focus was one Kate’s birthday.

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:32 AM, JenE4 said:

Mallory turned on her last BFF, so I tend to think she’s going to be put in the middle of this lawsuit and perhaps have to admit some stuff that’s going to support Jeanette rather than her new best friend, Kate.

It's the depth of Mallory's switch from friend to seething resentment of Jeannette that makes me wary of her and her friendship with Kate. Because as we saw, that borderline hatred started before Kate was rescued and later claimed Jeannette knew she was kidnapped. So we can't even say it's solely disgust at her believing Jeannette did something so awful. 

I just feel like Mallory comes across a little intense regarding her friendship with Kate and it's all hunky dory now, when Kate is still clearly vulnerable and needs her. But what happens when Kate works through her trauma and gets to a place of being not completely okay (who would ever be after that) but better. And maybe starts fully living her life again like she did before the trauma. Mallory gives me territorial friend vibes. So that's what I don't trust about her. I don't trust she won't go nuclear on Kate, just like she seemed to do Jeannette, once Kate isn't exactly how she wants her to be. 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 7:32 AM, JenE4 said:

I don’t really see how this victim shaming is going to help out Jeanette—in today’s lens—but the 90s was a different time! It probably would have been a typical reaction to think, well, if she went there on her own with a suitcase late at night and begged him to let her stay, what did she expect would happen?

As others noted, because Jeannette's lawsuit is a defamation suit, which means it's a civil case, this is not about proving that somehow Kate is guilty of her own kidnapping or was to blame for it. It's putting doubt on her credibility. And they can even play again on the trauma and her not being sure of what's true and not.

But the point is the messages suggest that she willingly lied about something and withheld information from the police regarding her kidnapping. So how then can they be sure she's 100% honest about having seen Jeannette, who has steadfastly maintained that she didn't do what Kate is accusing her of. 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 8:38 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Maybe Ash too, I did love her getting stoned with the two of them and watching a movie, but too bad we couldn’t have had more of that bonding instead of the chat room deception. 

Maybe this is cold but I don't buy Ashley cares about Kate. Because all this mess that will follow Derek finding and giving the messages to Jeannette and her lawyer is because she chose to lie and mislead an already traumatized and abused victim. Sure, she'll claim it's because she just wanted to help and have Kate let her in. But the way to truly do that and be there for Kate as she claimed, was to give her space and time to come to Ashley when SHE was ready. 

What Ashley did was a violation in itself of Kate. Kate thought she was in a safe space, speaking to someone who didn't know her personally but had been through what she had and instead it was Ashley basically lying and pretending to be someone with a traumatic experience. That's like someone hiding in the closet during someone's private therapy session. There's a reason therapy sessions are protected by the law unless there is clear evidence of the individual being a danger to themselves or others. 

And I thought Ashley's expecting Kate to open up to her to the point of pulling that kind of stunt was especially galling based on their past relationship. As Kate fairly said to her, she tried many times to connect with Ashley pre her kidnapping, while Ashley not only rebuffed her but practically treated her with disdain. And she seriously expected a now traumatized Kate who's probably wary of everything and everyone to just open up to her. Come on... 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 9:03 AM, waving feather said:

She is awesome with Kate. Who knows, maybe she was annoying with Jeanette because she could sense some shadiness from Jeanette since '93.

Or maybe she was a pushy friend with Jeannette and Vincent because their dynamic was clearly loud, obnoxious friend and her two dorky sidekicks. The dynamic is very different with her and Kate, just on account of who Kate is and the trauma she's gone through. Mallory has a more sensitive approach to that friendship than she likely did with Jeannette and Vincent. 

I agree with the comment above about the complexity of the show and what makes it so interesting. If you're watching the series through the lens of Kate is completely truthful and has gone through something horrific, while Jeannette is an obvious liar and probably is guilty, yeah it does seem completely evil what she and Derek are doing regarding the messages. 

However, if you allow for sure, Jeannette wasn't kidnapped but she has been unfairly maligned, you cannot blame her for fighting back. Because again, if you believe Jeannette is being honest about not having seen Kate and knowing she was kidnapped, her POV is that Kate boldfaced lied about her and got an entire country to view her as a monster. Again, yeah she wasn't kidnapped and sexually assaulted but she's been verbally assaulted, shamed, her family fell apart, etc. That's a lot of loss if again, she didn't do what she's been accused of. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by truthaboutluv

[millennium]

I have a visceral dislike of Jeannette.  I feel no sympathy for her at all.   She seems willing to burn down everything and everyone around her to get what she feels entitled to.   She may change her hair and makeup, but she's never pretty.   Too much of what's inside shows through.

[Bellatrix]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:42 PM, Aradea831 said:

I think the bad guy thing meant Kate needed a "bad guy" to stand up for herself. We see in the earlier episode with her lawyers that she is dead set to do everything she can to prepare for court against Jeanette. I think Joy thought if she sent the Lair note it would fire Kate up to do all the things her mom thought she should be doing like the tv show ect. As far as us seeing it pre kidnapping I think we do see Kate do this when exposing her Mom to her Dad. 

This. I agree so much with this.

Also, as much as I dislike Joy (which is a lot), she wasn't wrong when she said that Kate could have destroyed their lives. A divorce, either because her husband or she herself was cheating, could easily have had herself and her daughter thrown out on their behinds.

I have to admit that Kate's Shock!Horror! at one of her parents cheating made me smile wryly. Imagine being a teenager and the worst thing that could possibly happen is that one of your parents cheat.

These days I'm grateful if everyone is alive and well.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Bellatrix

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, Bellatrix said:

Also, as much as I dislike Joy (which is a lot), she wasn't wrong when she said that Kate could have destroyed their lives. A divorce, either because her husband or she herself was cheating, could easily have had herself and her daughter thrown out on their behinds

Then JOY’s behavior would have destroyed their lives. 

[Bellatrix]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Then JOY’s behavior would have destroyed their lives. 

True enough. But Kate's life would still have been destroyed.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Bellatrix said:

True enough. But Kate's life would still have been destroyed.

Destroyed? That seems hyperbolic to me. Money is not everything.

[Bellatrix]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Destroyed? That seems hyperbolic to me. Money is not everything.

No, but it's a lot. So is reputation. Makes life a lot easier.

If Kate's (step-)father had turned his back on them, it would also have caused to Kate to lose her father figure.

Just to be clear, I absolutely do not think that money is everything. It is not worth destroying anything of more value for. But it's not something to be thrown away without thought, either.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Bellatrix

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

No, but it's a lot. So is reputation. Makes life a lot easier.

If Kate's (step-)father had turned his back on them, it would also have caused to Kate to lose her father figure.

Just to be clear, I absolutely do not think that money is everything. It is not worth destroying anything for more value for. But it's not something to be thrown away without thought, either.

I don’t think her stepdad would turn his back on her, and any reputation lost would not be Kate’s. I just think it’s better to life an authentic life. Kate wouldn’t be living on the streets. 🤷‍♀️

[Bellatrix]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think her stepdad would turn his back on her, and any reputation lost would not be Kate’s. I just think it’s better to life an authentic life. Kate wouldn’t be living on the streets. 🤷‍♀️

Perhaps not Rod Wallis as we have seen him in this series. But he could have done. And easily, too.

Her mother's fall from grace would have followed Kate, because that is just the way things are. A closed door is a closed door.

An authentic life sounds great, but it is not always the easiest.

[Cinnabon]

50 minutes ago, Bellatrix said:

Perhaps not Rod Wallis as we have seen him in this series. But he could have done. And easily, too.

Her mother's fall from grace would have followed Kate, because that is just the way things are. A closed door is a closed door.

An authentic life sounds great, but it is not always the easiest.

Yes, life isn’t easy for anyone.

[Bellatrix]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Yes, life isn’t easy for anyone.

No, but it's easier for some.

[bettername2come]

That fight between Kate and her mom was really well done. I believed her mom's motivation about being jealous of how well she reconnected with her dad, but you know - Dad didn't hit her and tell her to get out and maker her out to be a liar!

Oh, Kate going over there by choice makes me wonder if it's possible that Jeanette really did misinterpret the situation when she saw Kate at Martin's.