S01.E10: I Am Icarus

[ottoDbusdriver]

Episode Description:

Quote

The mystery deepens as Bryan and Finola attempt to right what has gone wrong, and prevent the fabric of reality from unwinding.

 

[shapeshifter]

I do need to rewatch this because I missed a couple of bits, but I think it was good. Right? Except I wanted there to be some faint bleed through when they got "back."
I guess there sort of was, because in the earlier versions Bryan said quietly "I like the sea," whereas in the final version he declared with emphasis, "I love the ocean!" 
In contrast, in the scenes of Finola with her other partner, he said he hated the ocean and then they half-joked about her needing a new partner. 
And when the partner thought he deserved to have his picture on a cereal box, Finola quipped something like Wheaties, Breakfast of Monsters "Honey Nut Malcontent." I'll have to edit this when I rewatch it, but it did amuse.

Anyway, since Jack in SG1 just had a fish in his fishless pond after they reset the universe to it's almost original state, I'm going to take it as a bit of a shout out that Bryan (who, like Jack O'Neill, is a damaged war veteran) now states he "Loves the ocean" instead of just quietly "I like the sea."

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by shapeshifter
"Honey Nut Malcontent"

[redpencil]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I do need to rewatch this because I missed a couple of bits, but I think it was good. Right? Except I wanted there to be some faint bleed through when they got "back."
I guess there sort of was, because in the earlier versions Bryan said quietly "I like the sea," whereas in the final version he declared with emphasis, "I love the ocean!" 

I thought the resolution was good, and I liked the two realities working together. That was cool. I do wish there had been more Shelby, as the actress playing Kathleen was not as strong. I think it makes sense that Bryan and Finola didn't remember, as it went back to their original reality, or at least the one from the beginning of the previous episode (I think?), but I do wish there was some remnant of remembering wanting to get back to Finola on Bryan's part. especially with all the talk about figuring out what you really want. Of course, that's just my sentimental nature. Maybe there will be some subconscious remnant of that going forward.

I also noticed the difference in "I like the sea" vs. "I love the ocean". So maybe that is indeed some faint bleed through.

One note on the Maddox Family Drama--it hadn't occurred to me in the previous episode that that was a different reality we were seeing, even though it was more than halfway through the episode so it clearly was. It was just so removed from the rest of the events that I didn't make that connection. But then here, back in the correct reality, Maddox didn't actually go to the restaurant. Not that I care all that much, but I did find that interesting.

A few other random notes about these two episodes:

-I remembered upon rewatching the first episode earlier today that the Swedish(?) partner was actually mentioned earlier in the season. I think Bryan was talking to Maddox complaining about Finola or something (can't remember exactly) and mentioned a previous guy he had worked with who ate "sour fish". So that alternate reality partner was actually a subtle call back. Nice.

-Alt Bryan was a war criminal? Huh. I wish we had learned more about that. I can't imagine he was actually a war criminal; I bet trouble found him and something went terribly wrong and he somehow got stuck with the blame. I doubt that will ever come up again since it was a different reality, so that will just be my head cannon for that reality.

-I was actually pretty impressed upon rewatching the first episode with the actor who plays Bryan (I don't know his name and am too lazy to look it up at the moment). He really nailed the desperation when he first jumped with Shelby and Finola disappeared (at the beginning of this episode as well, before we transitioned to mostly Finola). A little moment in the previous episode that I really appreciated upon rewatch was his relief when he hears Finola's voice when he called the other version of her. So I'm now thinking my slowness to warm up to him previously was mostly the writing, in not giving me enough to grasp on to.

-I didn't really understand what was happening at the end with the Influx guy (blanking on his name) and the code.

Edited May 4, 2021 by redpencil

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, redpencil said:

-I didn't really understand what was happening at the end with the Influx guy (blanking on his name) and the code

Well, less happened than before, heh. 
I was left speculating on whether or not Maddox already knows or would later learn about the debris’ ability to reset the outcomes of one’s life. 

[salaydouk]

Okay I haven't posted in a number of years, but this crazy two part episode has left me not choice because I need to get this stuff out of my head... So I can't remember all of the rules, but I think the below will be Spoiler-ish. So I am going to black it out and someone let me know down stream if I can unblock it... 

Spoiler

 

Basically, I don't think that this episode left us in the same reality as we were at the start of the previous one.  And my rationale for this  is the following:

• When we started we were in a reality where Shelby had a brother not a sister.
• When we started Bryan said he, "liked the sea," not that he, "loved the ocean." 
• Finally look at Bryan's clothes - Every time there was a jump there was a difference in his clothes to hint at a reset.  
  • If you look at the color of his shirt before the first jump in the last episode and if you look at his shirt at the end of this one the colors are different - last episode it was a dark grey/blue and in this one it is a light grey. 

So I am now wondering which reality is to be considered "Prime" for us?!?!

Also insofar as the ending and Bryan and Finola not remembering, I think that makes sense since they are not the ones that were the versions that were doing the jumping... which makes sense if we are not in the reality where we started.   We are now in the reality of the Shelby/Kathleen twins that started the whole mess with their jumping.  The Bryan and Finola that would remember, according to the resolution, would be back where they belong but with their memories of their jumping.  

So then that begs the question what was the point for the show to have of one realities Bryan saying he wanted to get back to his Finola?  Is there a plan to bring back any of these other realties, ala Fringe?   So it is possible in that reality, Bryan and Finola had already become an item? Or was that Bryan finally admitting something because he had "lost" his Finola?  

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by salaydouk

[IndiaCat]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyway, since Jack in SG1 just had a fish in his fishless pond after they reset the universe to it's almost original state, I'm going to take it as a bit of a shout out that Bryan (who, like Jack O'Neill, is a damaged war veteran) now states he "Loves the ocean" instead of just quietly "I like the sea."

I’m not sure we saw the Prime universe until the very end. When they arrived at the house the first time, in the previous episode, Shelby had already jumped multiple times. The universe had already been altered. In that altered reality, we see Bryan say that he likes the sea. In the end, when the twins are reunited and the universe reset, Bryan loves the ocean. Not a holdover, just the first time we’re seeing the Prime version of that scene. Of course your interpretation works too.

[mertensia]

Shelby had a sister in the original world. The little boy is who he ended up after several jumps.

I like the effect of the worlds colliding. I'm sure it's cheap or derivitive or whatever but I like that amber wavy effect.

Even to the end Shelby was a great character. "It's in the ocean, Bryan". 

[salaydouk]

1 hour ago, IndiaCat said:

I’m not sure we saw the Prime universe until the very end. When they arrived at the house the first time, in the previous episode, Shelby had already jumped multiple times. The universe had already been altered. In that altered reality, we see Bryan say that he likes the sea. In the end, when the twins are reunited and the universe reset, Bryan loves the ocean. Not a holdover, just the first time we’re seeing the Prime version of that scene. Of course your interpretation works too.

If we ended in the Prime reality then it means that the events of the episode before this two-parter should/could be different.  Remember Shelby stated that the loop took him back two days, so the first day in the loop should cover the time span where Bryan and Finola rescued George. Which is confirmed by us seeing in the previous episode two loops with the deer behaving differently.  So using your logic it could mean at best George's status is now an open question and at worst we could have not been in the Prime universe at all until the end of this episode? 

[shapeshifter]

26 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

So using your logic it could mean at best George's status is now an open question and at worst we could have not been in the Prime universe at all until the end of this episode? 

And now I'm just hoping George has his shorter haircut in the next episode.🙂

[Jenniferbug]

Last week and this week were good episodes! I wish the show had been this good all along. 

Has anyone been paying attention to the end credits audio? The last couple weeks and last night's are interesting. Wondering if they'll tie into the preview for next week. 

[mjc570]

I'm sorry, but this show is just not compelling enough to me to put the effort into figuring out different timelines, realities, resets etc.  I'm glad other people enjoyed it, but I had been really tired of perfect Finola/doormat Bryan before this.  Sorry to come off as grumpy (well, to be fair I AM), but I am also tired of family dramas, even when they're shoehorned into the main arc (like, Daddy George).  

[Tachi Rocinante]

Another good episode.  Why didn't they at least try to contact Garcia?

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

Last week and this week were good episodes! I wish the show had been this good all along. 

Word to the above. Last week and last night were the first times I actually stopped whatever else I was doing and LOOKED at the tv and was invested in watching every minute. All the episodes before, it's been on but nothing keeps my attention and it turns into nothing more than background noise.

So I don't know any of the other characters nor do I know what's (suppose to be) going on with them. I so agree Shelby made last week's show, and so did Kathleen after I warmed up to her sad sack demeanor. She ended up being pretty proactive after all.

Maybe I'll see you guys next week. Maybe not!

[KaveDweller]

6 hours ago, salaydouk said:

If we ended in the Prime reality then it means that the events of the episode before this two-parter should/could be different.  Remember Shelby stated that the loop took him back two days, so the first day in the loop should cover the time span where Bryan and Finola rescued George. Which is confirmed by us seeing in the previous episode two loops with the deer behaving differently.  So using your logic it could mean at best George's status is now an open question and at worst we could have not been in the Prime universe at all until the end of this episode? 

Ending in prime reality makes sense, but it would be really cheap to undo such a major thing from earlier episodes.

[redpencil]

53 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Ending in prime reality makes sense, but it would be really cheap to undo such a major thing from earlier episodes.

Yeah, since alternate realities is not the core premise of this show (and unless they surprise me, I don't think they intend to make it a central ongoing plot), I think it's fair to assume that the reality we ended up in is the main reality, or close enough to it, with all major events that we saw remaining the same. And any differences will be very minor (like Bryan wearing a different color shirt, or "I like the sea" vs. "I love the ocean"). Some of those little things could also be less a difference in the reality and more some sort of lingering remembrance of the events of those two episodes that is affecting current words/actions.

[IndiaCat]

7 hours ago, salaydouk said:

If we ended in the Prime reality then it means that the events of the episode before this two-parter should/could be different.  Remember Shelby stated that the loop took him back two days, so the first day in the loop should cover the time span where Bryan and Finola rescued George. Which is confirmed by us seeing in the previous episode two loops with the deer behaving differently.  So using your logic it could mean at best George's status is now an open question and at worst we could have not been in the Prime universe at all until the end of this episode? 

I agree. The first few loops we saw started at Garcia’s, when they get the call to go investigate an event. Later loops started when they stopped to look at the sea - no doubt to save story-telling time. We never see them go back a full 2 days. Who knows what was Prime and what was Alternate? Sadly, it will probably never be addressed again.

[ottoDbusdriver]

That was actually a pretty good follow-up to part one.

But it did remind me a lot of Fringe, what with the softspots allowing breaches between realities/universes.  

I agree that we didn't actually see the Prime Debris reality until the last scene where Bryan and Finola went to the house.  The fix was completed by a Bryan and a Finola from two different realities that were also different yet again from the Prime reality, and that's why Prime Bryan/Finola don't remember anything.

I'm going to have to go back and see exactly how many partner pairings there were -- because there were a lot.

Should we consider the Prime Debris reality as the 'Blue Universe' for his show.  ;)

[akr]

The biggest change of events that I noticed was that instead of Maddox intercepting his wife and her divorce lawyer at a restaurant, after he gets a call from the restaurant about the reservation, he instead arrives home to a deserted house and divorce papers, I think the circumstances around, and wording of, the call were slightly different, too, so he didn't jump to the same conclusion as he did in the first go-round, but I'm not going to go back and check on the details of that.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by akr
name

[salaydouk]

5 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Ending in prime reality makes sense, but it would be really cheap to undo such a major thing from earlier episodes.

Agreed.  But I will need to go back and watch the last 3 episodes.  We know they started at a particular location Washington State to get George, stayed in a hotel overnight, then they drove to Garcia's in Oregon, and then when back to a particular location in Washington State again. We know for sure the looping jumping includes the drive to drop off at Garcia's( because of the deer)  and George in the first loop we say that he told Shelby to jump back at the exact same time which was what around 4PM.  So this means the hotel overnight must be in the loop as well but if anything could be figured out from the episode before this two parter, who knows. 

 

4 hours ago, redpencil said:

Yeah, since alternate realities is not the core premise of this show (and unless they surprise me, I don't think they intend to make it a central ongoing plot), I think it's fair to assume that the reality we ended up in is the main reality, or close enough to it, with all major events that we saw remaining the same. And any differences will be very minor (like Bryan wearing a different color shirt, or "I like the sea" vs. "I love the ocean"). Some of those little things could also be less a difference in the reality and more some sort of lingering remembrance of the events of those two episodes that is affecting current words/actions.

See I would agree that alt realities was not the core premise of this show... but it wasn't suppose to be for Fringe either ;D... You very well could be right that we started, at least at some point, in Prime and ended up in Prime and the difference at the end would all make sense.   

But my only sang is then what was the point of having written into the script that in one of the realities that Bryan was a war criminal? Why not just leave it as Finola had a different partner in that reality? Or what was the point of ending the first part with a displaced Bryan telling that reality's Finola that he was trying to get a back to somebody and that confession being done _before_ he heard the Soldier/Penguin story. So it is not like the story made him realize what he had been hiding from himself.  So why even get the audience started down a "ship" path for a reality we will never see again or were TPTB just trying to basically state that will be the endgame for Primes Bryan and Finola?  Like someone else said above we will probably never get any answers....   

Last thing... anyone else getting a strong Robert Patrick as John Doggett vibe out of Jonathan Tucker in these last two episodes? 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by salaydouk

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, akr said:

The biggest change of events that I noticed was that instead of Maddox intercepting his wife and her divorce lawyer at a restaurant, after he gets a call from the restaurant about the reservation, he instead arrives home to a deserted house and divorce papers, I think the circumstances around, and wording of, the call were slightly different, too, so he didn't jump to the same conclusion as he did in the first go-round, but I'm not going to go back and check on the details of that.  

Ooo. Now that I'm reading your post, @akr, it occurs to me that what's really missing now is the scene where he and his wife cry and touch each others' faces and say I love you.

Also, in the earlier version (last week's episode), Maddox threatens the divorce attorney with the words: "I know this is...If you say one more word, I will literally kill you." 
Do we need to be worried that Maddox will "literally" kill the divorce attorney in this version of the universe? Is this a Chekhovian "literally"? 
I guess I'm concerned because I read Norbert Leo Butz' (Maddox) Wikipedia page and have decided he's not only a Tony award-winning actor, but he's a nice guy, so that's coloring my feelings about what happens to Maddox. 

 

 

4 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Word to the above. Last week and last night were the first times I actually stopped whatever else I was doing and LOOKED at the tv and was invested in watching every minute. All the episodes before, it's been on but nothing keeps my attention and it turns into nothing more than background noise.

So I don't know any of the other characters nor do I know what's (suppose to be) going on with them. I so agree Shelby made last week's show, and so did Kathleen after I warmed up to her sad sack demeanor. She ended up being pretty proactive after all.

Maybe I'll see you guys next week. Maybe not!

I skimmed an interview with Jonathan Tucker (Bryan) and this question and answer stood out, which might mean you want to at least watch next week's outing too:

Quote

Can you rank the episodes you have personally enjoyed the most so far?

[Episodes] 9, 10, and 11 are really my favorites. We're starting to build out this world, set up a second season, and not just tease the audience as much as being able to offer satisfying answers to some of the questions that have been posed thus far.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, IndiaCat said:

I agree. The first few loops we saw started at Garcia’s, when they get the call to go investigate an event. Later loops started when they stopped to look at the sea - no doubt to save story-telling time. We never see them go back a full 2 days. Who knows what was Prime and what was Alternate? Sadly, it will probably never be addressed again.

I'm in the camp of just enjoying the possibility of there being future mentions of alternate versions of events. Fluidity of alternate universes is my thing.  --both fictional and potential IRL.

[salaydouk]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm in the camp of just enjoying the possibility of there being future mentions of alternate versions of events. Fluidity of alternate universes is my thing.  --both fictional and potential IRL.

Totally agree with you. I am totally enjoying the mental exercise of churning though the last 3 episodes and the possible ramifications of the looping to everything we have seen thus far.  Just loving it!  And thinking about storytelling possibilities this show could do as a result of this pair of episodes has been equally as fun.  I was on the fence before, but now I am hoping this show gets at least a limited run second season

[momo]

Everyone jumped into the ocean, Bryan always did a cool dive.

[tennisgurl]

This wasn't quite as dynamic as last weeks episode but I thought it was a strong episode and worthy follow up. I think last week was so impressive because I was just so surprised at how good it was, I am really glad that they kept that momentum going this week. Hopefully this is going to be a real turning point for the show where it finds its feet, it really feels alive now in a way that past episodes haven't. The ideas were interesting, the effects looked cool, and the actors were given a lot better material and could show a broader range of emotions. There are plenty of shows, especially science fiction shows, that take awhile to get good, so I am hoping that this means the show is finally heading in the right direction after a slow start. 

Kathleen didn't grab me right away like Shelby did but I warmed up to her by the end. She didn't have Shelby's sarcastic gallows sense of humor at the ridiculous and dire situation, she started out as on the verge of tears as most people on this show have been, but I can at least understand her being so upset and I liked her a lot more as the episode went on and I appreciate how proactive she got later, trying things other than just diving and trying to pass information on to Finola about previous conversations. I did love seeing Shelby again at the end, he's a great character, huge kudos to the actor for making such an impression in such a short amount of time. The actress playing Kathleen was really good too, I would be happy to see them pop up again. 

I really like alternate universe stories, and I thought the solution of having all of the universes work together to get everything back on track was really good, and the affects of the universes colliding looked quite good. Not huge and bombastic, they do have a TV budget, but they looked otherworldly but also beautiful in a way that really worked. I think that we found the main universe where things started out, and that things wont really change, except it seems like there was just a bit of a change with Bryan and the quite "I like the sea" and his more excited "I love the ocean" at the end. Possibly showing that Bryan has opened up to Finola during the many loops and changes in universe, especially now that everything about her dad is out in the open? Or that he in general has found a bit more happiness and can appreciate the ocean again? I am guessing that the alternate universes wont be explored extensively, but I would like them to come back to it again at some point. Like I said, I enjoy fluid alternate universe stories. 

I noticed that the one partner was presumably the guy who smelled like fish, nice continuity there. 

[ROEHUNTER]

10 hours ago, momo said:

Everyone jumped into the ocean, Bryan always did a cool dive.

I noticed this as well, also noticed that the last time Fiona jumped she landed awful close to the shore!

Edited May 5, 2021 by ROEHUNTER

[Driad]

How did they do the underwater swimming scenes?  The jumping/diving could be done by stunt people, but the underwater scenes looked like the characters.  Not everyone can swim under water like that, so maybe some image manipulation was done?

[salaydouk]

32 minutes ago, Driad said:

How did they do the underwater swimming scenes?  The jumping/diving could be done by stunt people, but the underwater scenes looked like the characters.  Not everyone can swim under water like that, so maybe some image manipulation was done?

Apparently the underwater scenes themselves were filmed utilizing water tanks. And if you look it was just a few shots showing them doing about maybe 5-6 strokes in "open water" before they got to filming actions with the debris. So probably not a lot of actual "swimming."  

 

[redpencil]

16 hours ago, akr said:

The biggest change of events that I noticed was that instead of Maddox intercepting his wife and her divorce lawyer at a restaurant, after he gets a call from the restaurant about the reservation, he instead arrives home to a deserted house and divorce papers, I think the circumstances around, and wording of, the call were slightly different, too, so he didn't jump to the same conclusion as he did in the first go-round, but I'm not going to go back and check on the details of that.  

When we saw them in the first episode, that was actually later in the episode, once we'd already had a few resets. So it wasn't the original reality anyway. I assume the idea is that what we saw in the second episode (where he didn't go to the restaurant) is what actually happened in the original reality, we just didn't see it the first time.

13 hours ago, momo said:

Everyone jumped into the ocean, Bryan always did a cool dive.

Except when he got shot that one time, lol.

Edited May 5, 2021 by redpencil

[salaydouk]

9 minutes ago, redpencil said:

When we saw them in the first episode, that was actually later in the episode, once we'd already had a few resets. So it wasn't the original reality anyway. I assume the idea is that what we saw in the second episode (where he didn't go to the restaurant) is what actually happened in the original reality, we just didn't see it the first time.

Except when he got shot that one time, lol.

What I am wondering is if it is worth it go back a few episodes to see if they every showed his assistant before this last episode?  Like you said we saw Maddox in the middle of the previous episode, so there is an an assumption that we are not looking at Prime Maddox. So if Prime Maddox is at the end, it could be confirmed if Prime Maddox Assistant has been seen before and if she is the same as the one we see at the end of this episode. 

[momo]

1 hour ago, redpencil said:

When we saw them in the first episode, that was actually later in the episode, once we'd already had a few resets. So it wasn't the original reality anyway. I assume the idea is that what we saw in the second episode (where he didn't go to the restaurant) is what actually happened in the original reality, we just didn't see it the first time.

Except when he got shot that one time, lol.

NO EXCUSE!  lol

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

it seems like there was just a bit of a change with Bryan and the quite "I like the sea" and his more excited "I love the ocean" at the end.

I interpreted that as Bryan remembering the different time loops and he was relieved to be back FINALLY with Finola, so now he loves, not likes, the ocean since those ocean dives is how they got back as they were suppose to be. I thought he could remember since he and Shelby were able to communicate across time to Finola and Kathleen. JMHO of course!

I'd like to see Shelby and Kathleen again too. I wonder if their parents are still in Europe. Ha ha!

[tennisgurl]

13 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

I'd like to see Shelby and Kathleen again too. I wonder if their parents are still in Europe. Ha ha!

Parents: "Hi kids, anything interesting happen while we were gone?" 

Shelby and Kathleen: "...we really need adult supervision." 

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/4/2021 at 1:38 PM, Jenniferbug said:

Last week and this week were good episodes! I wish the show had been this good all along. 

Has anyone been paying attention to the end credits audio? The last couple weeks and last night's are interesting. Wondering if they'll tie into the preview for next week. 

Same.  I think it's really ballsy and cool that a show this new is already doing a two parter, but god, this was so much much engaging than the show has been since the pilot.

19 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Last thing... anyone else getting a strong Robert Patrick as John Doggett vibe out of Jonathan Tucker in these last two episodes? 

I made a joke about Tucker being Patrick's son in the thread for the pilot. I have no idea who John Doggett is.  

[salaydouk]

28 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I made a joke about Tucker being Patrick's son in the thread for the pilot. I have no idea who John Doggett is.  

Sorry did not get to the pilot's forum thread, but glad I am not the only one... but I did not see it until these last two episodes.

Robert Patrick's character in the X-Files was John Doggett.  I am specifically seeing the similarities between the two actors based on the two specific performances. I mean I can't exactly say Tucker reminds me of Robert Patrick when he(Patrick) played the T1000 in Terminator 2. :) 

Edited May 5, 2021 by salaydouk

[shapeshifter]

55 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

it seems like there was just a bit of a change with Bryan and the quite "I like the sea" and his more excited "I love the ocean" at the end.

I interpreted that as Bryan remembering the different time loops and he was relieved to be back FINALLY with Finola, so now he loves, not likes, the ocean since those ocean dives is how they got back as they were suppose to be. I thought he could remember since he and Shelby were able to communicate across time to Finola and Kathleen. JMHO of course!

I like this interpretation, but I also assume Bryan (and Finola) don't quite realize they are remembering what happened during their time/universe jumping. 
When Bryan and Finola go to the house for the last time, Shelby and Kathleen seem to remember Bryan and Finola, but Bryan and Finola do not seem to be acquainted with Shelby and Kathleen, right? 

 

59 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

I'd like to see Shelby and Kathleen again too. I wonder if their parents are still in Europe. Ha ha!

That was kind of funny. I wonder if there was even a cut line in which Shelby hung a lantern on it by replying to the agent's "are your parents home?" with "no, they're in Europe; they're always going off to Europe." 

[salaydouk]

18 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I like this interpretation, but I also assume Bryan (and Finola) don't quite realize they are remembering what happened during their time/universe jumping. 
When Bryan and Finola go to the house for the last time, Shelby and Kathleen seem to remember Bryan and Finola, but Bryan and Finola do not seem to be acquainted with Shelby and Kathleen, right? 

The problem is that the version of Bryan and Finola that we see at the end were not the Bryan and Finola that did any of the jumping.  You have to jump to be able to remember. Remember each time through the loop Bryan does not remember anything until either Shelby tells him or after he jumps with Shelby so when he gets to the house he immediately body slams Shelby to the floor and says, "I remember now too."  Also the Bryan and Finola that would remember are each in different realities, ie they did not wind up together, unlike the twins who were from the same reality. At the end the twins remember because they were the ones doing the jumping... so Bryan in what was what the sixth or seventh reality that we saw and what the second Finola( the one with the war criminal Bryan, I think) are the ones that would remember.   

Also affirming that the last Bryan and Finola we saw remember nothing... is at the end Shelby tells a confused looking Bryan and Finola, " It's in the Ocean Bryan"..."Come in I will tell you what I know," or thereabouts... If end Bryan/Finola remembered they would have had the same "knowing looks" that Shelby and Kathleen had in that scene and nothing would need to be told. In fact one could argue that if they remembered, there would have been no reason for them to go to the house because they would know the issue had been resolved and just called in the team to retrieve the debris

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by salaydouk

[Morrigan2575]

I really enjoyed these last 2 episodes. I actually came here wondering if the episode ended with Bryan and Finola in an altered reality. It seems like that is up for debate. I'm just going to go with a cool twist that they are in an altered reality but, close enough to their real one that it doesn't matter.

I have to give The Network credit, they had me with the promo. It has the scene of Bryan talking about getting back to his partner and then Finola saying (tearfully) if you could say something knowing you'd never see me again. I watched and was 🤔...where did this romance come from? 🤷🏼

Glad that was a fake out and it was Finola/George

[alvajon]

5 hours ago, salaydouk said:

The problem is that the version of Bryan and Finola that we see at the end were not the Bryan and Finola that did any of the jumping.  You have to jump to be able to remember. Remember each time through the loop Bryan does not remember anything until either Shelby tells him or after he jumps with Shelby so when he gets to the house he immediately body slams Shelby to the floor and says, "I remember now too."  Also the Bryan and Finola that would remember are each in different realities, ie they did not wind up together, unlike the twins who were from the same reality. At the end the twins remember because they were the ones doing the jumping... so Bryan in what was what the sixth or seventh reality that we saw and what the second Finola( the one with the war criminal Bryan, I think) are the ones that would remember.   

Also affirming that the last Bryan and Finola we saw remember nothing... is at the end Shelby tells a confused looking Bryan and Finola, " It's in the Ocean Bryan"..."Come in I will tell you what I know," or thereabouts... If end Bryan/Finola remembered they would have had the same "knowing looks" that Shelby and Kathleen had in that scene and nothing would need to be told. In fact one could argue that if they remembered, there would have been no reason for them to go to the house because they would know the issue had been resolved and just called in the team to retrieve the debris

 

I'm glad someone here knows what’s going on--You have the best explanation SALAYDOUK--Thanks.  

[redpencil]

I just had a thought about War Criminal Bryan. It would be cool if we found out about some situation in Bryan's past that could have resulted in him being wrongly charged as a war criminal, but in this reality the truth prevailed. But in that alt we saw, things went wrong. So, same scenario, but some missing factor in that alternate reality that prevented his name from being cleared. We do know Bryan was in some elite special ops group, right? So seems entirely possible to me.

Edited May 9, 2021 by redpencil

[Nialla]

9 minutes ago, redpencil said:

I just had a thought about War Criminal Bryan. It would be cool if we found out about some situation in Bryan's past that could have resulted in him being wrongly charged as a war criminal, but in this reality the truth prevailed. But in that alt we say, things went wrong. So, same reality, same scenario, but some missing factor in that alternate reality that prevent his name from being cleared. We do know Bryan was in some elite special ops group, right? So seems entirely possible to me.

I get the impression you're on to something, based on next week's preview. No telling if it will tie into this bit of Bryan's alt-timeline past or not, but after a slow start, I actually feel like the show is trying to build on the foundation they've been laying. I don't think the war criminal thing was just a throwaway bit to show a different timeline.

[gibasi]

I along with the rest of you am glad I stuck with this show. It finally seems to be finding its feet. 

[salaydouk]

23 hours ago, Nialla said:

I get the impression you're on to something, based on next week's preview. No telling if it will tie into this bit of Bryan's alt-timeline past or not, but after a slow start, I actually feel like the show is trying to build on the foundation they've been laying. I don't think the war criminal thing was just a throwaway bit to show a different timeline.

I think you guys are right as well.  From the Caroline Episode, we know that Bryan was MARSOC( which really is bada$$) and was in Afghanistan.  And that there have been references both in the Prime Universe and in the Alt Universe that Maddox either did or tried to save him.  But save him from what - from PTSD and suicide or from going so completely "mad" in the field that he broke the rules of combat as defined by the Geneva Conventions. So agreed based on the previews for tomorrow's episode, I think they are going to explain more of Bryan's past through whatever medical event he is dealing with.  

But again if it wasn't some random throw in thing, then we have to assume the confession of the other Alt Bryan that he was trying to get back to his Finola was also not some random thing as well.   I am still trying to figure out the context for this one. 

On 5/5/2021 at 12:32 PM, salaydouk said:

What I am wondering is if it is worth it go back a few episodes to see if they every showed his assistant before this last episode?  Like you said we saw Maddox in the middle of the previous episode, so there is an an assumption that we are not looking at Prime Maddox. So if Prime Maddox is at the end, it could be confirmed if Prime Maddox Assistant has been seen before and if she is the same as the one we see at the end of this episode. 

So I did do the work and re-watched the first 4 episodes... I _can_ confirm that the Maddox Assistant that we saw at the end of this episodes was previously seen to be his assistant in episode 3 Also Maddox's desk layout in episode 3 and at the end of this episode matches as well.  So that would seem to imply that we did end up back in the same universe which we have been viewing in all of the previous episodes.... but I still am going to watch the rest of the episodes to see if it is possible to figure out when our "viewing" diverged from the Prime Universe.  What can I say I am a glutton for punishment.  Also I have to say Episode 4 "Earthshine" upon re-watch was actually not that bad... 

Edited May 10, 2021 by salaydouk