Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jaded said:

I knew at one time Laura was into Scientology. Looking her up again shows she made the fact know that she had quietly left the cult in 2016 after what Danny did to those women was made public. I did read over the weekend that she was dating Danny's brother Chris around the time at least one of the sexual assaults occurred. There are some speculating that she my have used Scientology back then to help silence the survivors too. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt unless something comes out to prove me wrong since she was one that didn't write a letter to the judge.

Yeah. Wilmer Valderrama is also a creep. Topher Grace is the only that seems like a decent guy from the main cast. Not praising the character of a convicted rapists is a really low bar to clear. 

 

3 hours ago, Zella said:

I went on a deep dive reading Tony Ortega's reporting on the first trial over the weekend, which was full of lots of disturbing information but definitely very informative since he was in the courtroom for the entire trial.

One of the things that really stood out to me is how deeply enmeshed this friend circle of Scientologists were. So, yes, Laura Prepon indeed was dating his brother Christopher. She actually dated him for years and during the timeline of all of these rapes that Danny Masterson was tried for. His family and siblings come up a lot incidentally in the testimony of various events because he spent a lot of time with them. 

And just in general, it's the same people over and over again in the testimony hanging out at Masterson's house. I am pretty sure all 3 of the victims reference a Luke Watson in various anecdotes about their experiences with Masterson. He was dating Lisa Marie Presley at the time and his mother is very high up in the Scientology world. One of the victims even told Lisa Marie about the rapes, and Masterson threatened her at one point with "You're not going to tell Lisa about this." And at one point, when Masterson was dragging this victim upstairs before raping her, Watson was trying to intervene and stop it because they already knew about a previous encounter between the victim and Masterson that was of dubious consent. But the vibe was very much "Danny should not be alone with her!"/"Danny's not supposed to be alone with her!" (even said in front of Masterson, which he just shrugged off) and seems like it was an open secret in their friend group. But guess who's still apparently hanging out with Masterson afterward? Luke Watson!

I also read some commentary that said for all the talk about how Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis may consider Danny Masterson a close friend and that is coloring their view of him, they also knew the victims too precisely because of the way this circle of friends operated. 

I have a feeling that that entire circle of friends have some pretty dark stories that their own friendship with Masterson and/or their own affiliation from Scientology has muzzled. 

 

This. With or without the letters Kutcher and Kunis have very strong ties to the situation. They successful created this false image of being advocates for victims. When you dig into the situation they are extremely problematic. Them writing the letters just exposed them to more people. 

Their PR really used the meant-to-be angle of their relationship and Mila’s better reputation to gloss over some sketchy stuff in his marriage to Demi Moore. 

[Zella]

11 minutes ago, Dani said:

Their PR really used the meant-to-be angle of their relationship and Mila’s better reputation to gloss over some sketchy stuff in his marriage to Demi Moore. 

Kutcher's PR has really been fantastic over the years. I remember when he was first famous, and I was a preteen/teenager, and I thought he was such an annoying idiot. [Disclaimer: I used to watch That 70s Show in reruns not because I particularly was a fan, but because it was on, and I found it amusing enough to not change the channel and have on in the background. I was never aware until quite recently about all the drama behind the scenes.] I assumed he was a Kelso type figure IRL.

But between all the stuff about his charity works and investments and happy marriage to Kunis, I still was never a fan, but I thought "Hmm maybe he has hidden depths I didn't give him credit for?" Hidden depths indeed. 

[Danielg342]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I have no problem believing it wasn’t a factor. It was 18 years between the murder and the trial and there was a lot of evidence against the man convicted. Including a victim who survived and was able to testify.

How much Ashton Kutcher's testimony weighed on the final verdict isn't relevant. What is relevant is that part of the evidence used to convict Michael Gargiulo would then be deemed faulty because Kutcher lied in court (if we are to believe Chrissie Bixler). Whether or not Gargiulo would win that appeal is another thing, but lawyers don't like taking chances- the defence and prosecution would do their best to make sure Kutcher's testimony passed muster. Especially the defence, since Kutcher lying in court would damage his credibility.

The other thing is that if Bixler is telling the truth here, there are likely others who would know the same thing she does, even if it's just from her. 18 years from the murder to the trial is more than enough time for a story like that to go around. There should be ample time for the lawyers to vet Kutcher's testimony...and yet they didn't.

5 hours ago, MaggieG said:

What happened in Toronto??

I looked it up and found nothing. I live there (now and at the time of when Mila Kunis supposedly had that incident) and I heard nothing. The only story that comes up is a mundane story about Kunis saying she'd love to live in Toronto if it weren't for winter.

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I also read some commentary that said for all the talk about how Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis may consider Danny Masterson a close friend and that is coloring their view of him, they also knew the victims too precisely because of the way this circle of friends operated. 

They picked a side, and it's the side I would expect them to pick.

I won't comment on whether or not it's right for Kutcher and Kunis to stand up for Danny Masterson. That's subjective. I'm just not surprised at all.

I think what really strikes me most about those letters is that, at no point, do any of them express possible remorse on Masterson's part. It's all "he doesn't do drugs", "he's a great family man", "he treats everyone as equals", etc. Only Kutcher and a New York police officer- tangentially- referred to the rapes. The rest didn't seem to acknowledge that they happened. Masterson's defenders seem to think the rapes were no different than if, say, Masterson got into a random yelling match with a grip on set.

That part bothers me. Whether or not Kutcher, Kunis, et all don't think Masterson is guilty, the fact is, when they wrote those letters, a judge said that he was. They should not have ignored that as if it was nothing.

[Angeltoes]

Someone on another forum pointed out this phrase in Kutcher's letter:

"I do not believe he is an ongoing harm to society" 

Hmmm, in order to be "ongoing" he would have had to have been one to start with.

Also, Mila lied about her age in order to get the part of Jackie.  She led the producers (and I'm assuming the cast) to think she was 18.  But does this forgive Danny and Ashton for thinking it's cute to cram a tongue down an unwilling woman's throat no matter what age she is?  It does not.

[Zella]

14 minutes ago, Angeltoes said:

Also, Mila lied about her age in order to get the part of Jackie.  She led the producers (and I'm assuming the cast) to think she was 18. 

That was during the audition process. By the time they were filming (and placing bets on ramming tongues down her throat), they knew how old she was. According to Kunis herself, the onboarding paperwork she had to do once she was selected is what outed her real age, and by then, the showrunners liked her for the part and decided to continue with her in the part. Kutcher's interview where he talks about the bet makes it clear he knew how old she was at the time. I agree the anecdote is gross, regardless of her age, but they don't even have a defense of ignorance. 

29 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

They picked a side, and it's the side I would expect them to pick.

I won't comment on whether or not it's right for Kutcher and Kunis to stand up for Danny Masterson. That's subjective. I'm just not surprised at all.

That's not really my point, though. A lot of the commentary I've seen that hand-waves away their defense of him seems predicated on the idea that these women who accused him are strangers to them, and he's not. But that's not actually true. They aren't strangers, even if they were never close friends. 

My other point is that based on the testimony of the victims, Masterson's friend circle seemed fairly aware of his proclivities, including what was going to happen when one of them was dragged upstairs for a "shower" after he gave her a drugged drink. As close as Kutcher and Kunis have been to him, I wouldn't be surprised if they've seen a darker side of Masterson, regardless of how much they laud him in their letters. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Zella

[Zella]

7 hours ago, MaggieG said:

What happened in Toronto??

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

 

I looked it up and found nothing. I live there (now and at the time of when Mila Kunis supposedly had that incident) and I heard nothing. The only story that comes up is a mundane story about Kunis saying she'd love to live in Toronto if it weren't for winter.

 

I don't think anyone outside of that group of people knows for sure, but one of the woman who was a witness (but whose attack was not part of the charges) said Masterson raped her at a party in Toronto in 2000. It could be that or another unnamed incident. 

In the court testimony, his attorneys were adamant that there was to be no mention of another potential victim named Lilly. Reporters who've been following the story for years have said they cannot pinpoint who she is, but there seems to be a consensus between people in the know that she was an underage victim of Masterson's who committed suicide. In her victim impact statement, one of the other victims said what happened with this still-unidentified woman named Lilly was the impetus behind her going to the authorities. 

I suspect there's still a lot to be unearthed on Masterson. 

[Jaded]

Full Victim Impact Statement From Jane Doe #1 aka Jen B In Masterson Trial

[Annber03]

8 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Re: Danny Masterson

It very much reminds me of all the people who defended Larry Nassar: how "nice" he was, how much he did for the community, what a family man he was, and all that crap.

Bad people can be "nice". 

Bad people can hide behind charitable works.

Bad people can have spouses, children, homes in the suburbs in the "real America", etc.

There are bad people who never so much as look at drugs and alcohol. 

Bad people can don incredibly good disguises*. The sad, frustrating thing is that, like Nassar's defenders, Masterson's defenders will most likely die on this hill.

*Or mediocre, banal ones that somehow pass moral muster, like Josh Duggar. 

I mean, seriously, did we as a society learn nothing from Ted Bundy? He was described as charming and good-looking. He worked at a suicide hotline, helping people. One of his friends he worked with wrote an entire freaking book about how fooled she was by him. He worked for a local police force and handed out flyers to women with tips on how they could keep themselves safe from creepy guys. 

He was also a prolific serial killer and necrophile. 

Hell, just watch a week's worth of Investigation Discovery or "Dateline" episodes and take a drink every time the "God-fearing, church-going family man with three kids" (or other similar descriptions) winds up being the one committing the most heinous of crimes. You'll be drunk by the end of the first night. 

I remember seeing a show once where someone talked about how predators will charm the public first, and then their victims, because obviously, that makes it much easier for everyone to be on their side when their victims finally start speaking up. We've seen this pattern play out so many times throughout history, with celebrities and politicians and non-famous people who turned out to be horrible criminals and so on, so people really shouldn't be all that shocked at this point whenever a "good guy" winds up being guilty of these kinds of crimes. 

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I mean, seriously, did we as a society learn nothing from Ted Bundy? He was described as charming and good-looking. He worked at a suicide hotline, helping people. One of his friends he worked with wrote an entire freaking book about how fooled she was by him. He worked for a local police force and handed out flyers to women with tips on how they could keep themselves safe from creepy guys. 

It is so much easier for the "good guys" to prey on their victims exactly because they have people who will defend them and say "but he's such a nice young man". I wish that all the serial killers, rapists, pedophiles of the world were absolutely, clearly and obviously loathsome because they'd be much easier to avoid, but they are not. They are usually charming, handsome, nice guys to the world at large and only show their horrible nature when it's too late. 

I used to like That 70s Show and it is horrible now hearing what a toxic environment it seems to have been. I can't imagine being stuck in a workplace where half the staff were apparently in a cult. 

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I used to like That 70s Show and it is horrible now hearing what a toxic environment it seems to have been. I can't imagine being stuck in a workplace where half the staff were apparently in a cult. 

I never followed this show - I saw the occasional clip here and there, but that was it - but yeah, ugh, what a mess the whole way around. I feel for the people who weren't involved in all that toxicity but still had to deal with it on some level or another. 

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Angeltoes said:

Hmmm, in order to be "ongoing" he would have had to have been one to start with.

Not that it at all absolves or mitigates what he's done, but I'm sure if you were to ask Danny Masterson, or ask his friends about him, they'd tell you the man he is today is not the same man he was twenty years ago. It may very well be the truth, too. 

3 hours ago, Zella said:

That was during the audition process. By the time they were filming (and placing bets on ramming tongues down her throat), they knew how old she was. According to Kunis herself, the onboarding paperwork she had to do once she was selected is what outed her real age, and by then, the showrunners liked her for the part and decided to continue with her in the part. Kutcher's interview where he talks about the bet makes it clear he knew how old she was at the time. I agree the anecdote is gross, regardless of her age, but they don't even have a defense of ignorance. 

Mila Kunis married Ashton Kutcher, though. Either the two of them are going through a very unhappy marriage that we don't know about, or Kunis forgave Kutcher about the incident rather quickly or the incident wasn't problematic for each party in the first place. If this wasn't an anecdote about Kunis and Kutcher I'd find it highly unsettling, but it is and based on their relationship it doesn't feel like such a big deal for me.

3 minutes ago, Dani said:

Whether it passes muster now that there is someone else telling a different version vs when the case was being investigated and trialed are two separate issues.

I think we're going in circles, so I don't know how much further I'll take this. I still think Chrissie Bixler's story would cause too many problems within Michael Gargiulo's legal situation that, if it were true, it should have been an issue at Gargiulo's trial. I also find it highly suspicious that Bixler chooses to raise the story now, after Kutcher wrote in defence of Masterson, instead of at Gargiulo's trial or even before then. I don't dispute that the justice system is far from being all roses, but that doesn't mean I can't call Bixler's bluff.

3 hours ago, Zella said:

That's not really my point, though. A lot of the commentary I've seen that hand-waves away their defense of him seems predicated on the idea that these women who accused him are strangers to them, and he's not. But that's not actually true. They aren't strangers, even if they were never close friends. 

My other point is that based on the testimony of the victims, Masterson's friend circle seemed fairly aware of his proclivities, including what was going to happen when one of them was dragged upstairs for a "shower" after he gave her a drugged drink. As close as Kutcher and Kunis have been to him, I wouldn't be surprised if they've seen a darker side of Masterson, regardless of how much they laud him in their letters. 

The psychology of friendship is a very funny thing. People handwave a lot, even some terrible things, simply because "we're friends". My dad once said to me that "a friend helps you move, your best friend helps you move a body". If that doesn't capture the twisted nature of friendship, I don't know what does.

It's quite likely that Masterson's friends, even those closest to him, knew all about his bad events. They knew about his "girlfriends" and what he did to them, and maybe even saw him do some terrible acts.

...but, they're his friends. Masterson's victims may not be actual strangers to them, but, in the social hierarchy, they might as well be strangers.

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't think anyone outside of that group of people knows for sure, but one of the woman who was a witness (but whose attack was not part of the charges) said Masterson raped her at a party in Toronto in 2000. It could be that or another unnamed incident. 

In the court testimony, his attorneys were adamant that there was to be no mention of another potential victim named Lilly. Reporters who've been following the story for years have said they cannot pinpoint who she is, but there seems to be a consensus between people in the know that she was an underage victim of Masterson's who committed suicide. In her victim impact statement, one of the other victims said what happened with this still-unidentified woman named Lilly was the impetus behind her going to the authorities. 

I suspect there's still a lot to be unearthed on Masterson. 

From the New York Times, April 26, 2023:

• The accuser isn't "Lilly", or at least was not identified as "Lilly". She is referred to in court as "Kathy".
• Masterson apparently was at a cast party for the movie Dracula in 2000 in Toronto. There, he met Kathy and, according to Kathy, gave her a spiked drink of vodka which left her unable to move.

That's probably the "Toronto incident" that Bixler is talking about.

34 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I mean, seriously, did we as a society learn nothing from Ted Bundy?

I don't know. I don't think so. I think society at large still believes in the "stranger in the bushes" myth about rape, and I still deal with enough stupid security guards who think I'm the next coming of Bundy just because I was awkward around one woman.

I'm going to try not to go on a rant because this stuff is highly personal for me (and I'm still dealing with depression over it), but this stuff bothers me to no end. You are more likely to be victimized by someone you know than by someone you don't. Yeah, awkward guys can be criminals too, but real predators are more likely to be smooth talkers who will work to build up enough trust in you so you unwittingly get into a vulnerable position where they can do some real damage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- Masterson likely played his friends just as much as he played his victims. He did all he could to make sure they wouldn't just see his darker side but also refuse to believe it exists. It's likely why he got away with his crimes for so long- because so many people just refused to believe that he could have done them in the first place.

...and, because they got so close to him, Masterson never had to worry about their support, because they gave it to him willingly and unconditionally. He basically used the psychology of friendship to his own benefit and it, sadly, worked for so long.

[Zella]

23 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

From the New York Times, April 26, 2023:

• The accuser isn't "Lilly", or at least was not identified as "Lilly". She is referred to in court as "Kathy".
• Masterson apparently was at a cast party for the movie Dracula in 2000 in Toronto. There, he met Kathy and, according to Kathy, gave her a spiked drink of vodka which left her unable to move.

That's probably the "Toronto incident" that Bixler is talking about.

No, Lily and Kathy are two separate people. I am referencing two entirely separate people/situations that you're combining. I apologize if that was unclear in my comment. 

Kathy is the Toronto accuser I referenced and that you found discussion about. Lily is the person whose name the attorneys didn't even want mentioned in trial. She did not testify and discussion about what happened to her is very limited, except one of the victims who testified in court (not Kathy) did reference her in her victim impact statement. Journalists who have delved into it extensively still don't have many details beyond she was underage and committed suicide, neither of which apply to Kathy. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Zella

[Irlandesa]

55 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Mila Kunis married Ashton Kutcher, though. Either the two of them are going through a very unhappy marriage that we don't know about, or Kunis forgave Kutcher about the incident rather quickly or the incident wasn't problematic for each party in the first place.

I will say that Mila was an impressionable 14-year old.  If it's true that people on the set were chilly to the one guy who didn't party with them, and everyone thought it was a 'ha ha' funny prank, it's really easy to convince yourself that you think it's funny too.  Cuz you're young and you want to be seen as cool like your older cast mates.

55 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I think we're going in circles, so I don't know how much further I'll take this. I still think Chrissie Bixler's story would cause too many problems within Michael Gargiulo's legal situation that, if it were true, it should have been an issue at Gargiulo's trial.

It's only an issue at trial if either the prosecutors or defense knew about Bixler's accusations.  Ashton told them his story.  Everyone involved in the trial seemed to believe it.  Could Gargiulo use it to appeal?  Eh.  Maybe but appeals aren't easy even if it's later proven that someone lied on the stand and I don't see how they do that without Ashton admitting it.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Irlandesa

[Vermicious Knid]

Didn't Kutcher and Kunis start an affair while he was still married to Demi? That doesn't reflect well on them but most everyone seems to have bought into the idea their relationship was 'meant to be'. I also remember some kerfuffle about them not bathing their kids, but I don't feel like looking it up. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Jaded said:

Full Victim Impact Statement From Jane Doe #1 aka Jen B In Masterson Trial

Wow, that was very impactful. I am so sorry and horrified at what Masterson and everyone else put her through. But not surprised. I'm sadded by the PTSD and other stuff she still has to deal with resulting from him. I am also amazed by how brave Jen B. was for reporting him and to keep going on and pushing forward with her case. She really is so brave.

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

No, Lily and Kathy are two separate people. I am referencing two entirely separate people/situations that you're combining. I apologize if that was unclear in my comment. 

I guess the part that I'm confused about is whether Chrissie Bixler's comment "I know what happened in Toronto" refers to Lily or Kathy. I can find ample stuff about Kathy. I find nothing about Lily.

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I will say that Mila was an impressionable 14-year old.

She probably was, and Ashton Kutcher probably did take advantage of her. However, I find it hard to believe that Mila Kunis would marry Kutcher and stay married to him for so long if she found that incident to be truly unsettling.

I can only hope that Kutcher at least now realizes how fortunate he is that Kunis took the incident well and that, if it were any other 14-year-old girl, it could have, and probably would have, ended much differently.

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

It's only an issue at trial if either the prosecutors or defense knew about Bixler's accusations.  Ashton told them his story.  Everyone involved in the trial seemed to believe it.  Could Gargiulo use it to appeal?  Eh.  Maybe but appeals aren't easy even if it's later proven that someone lied on the stand and I don't see how they do that without Ashton admitting it.

If Jhian Ghomeshi's lawyer can successfully argue to a judge that three defendants bonding over their shared trauma is proof of a conspiracy against him then I don't put anything past what lawyers can accomplish.

Again, my stance is not that Bixler's story would allow Michael Gargiulo to win an appeal. It would merely open the door for him. I also find it hard to believe that Gargiulo's defence would not use Bixler's story to undermine Kutcher's testimony. I don't know if doing so would have changed the outcome of his trial, but Gargiulo's lawyers would not be doing their jobs if they didn't try every angle in a bid to do so.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Bixler is the only one who knows that story. It doesn't sound like such a deep secret. I don't think it would have been so hard to investigate, especially considering Kutcher was a key witness at Gargiulo's trial. The fact that Gargiulo's lawyers never brought it up either means they're bad at their jobs (still a possibility, I grant) or Bixler is blowing hot air.

[Zella]

7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Also, I find it hard to believe that Bixler is the only one who knows that story. It doesn't sound like such a deep secret. I don't think it would have been so hard to investigate, especially considering Kutcher was a key witness at Gargiulo's trial. The fact that Gargiulo's lawyers never brought it up either means they're bad at their jobs (still a possibility, I grant) or Bixler is blowing hot air.

According to Aaron Smith-Levin, who was in Scientology and now is one of its most vocal opponents, he has confirmed the story independently with other Scientologists who knew Ashton Kutcher, as well as multiple LAPD detectives. He said Chrissy was one of his sources for his YouTube video about it earlier this year before Danny Masterson was even found guilty and before Chrissy spoke about it publicly on social media, but she was not the only one who talked to him. According to him, Kutcher made multiple phone calls to people that night, and the police knew right away his story was bullshit because he couldn't have seen what he claimed to see from outside the house. He was called in for questioning repeatedly because they knew he hadn't killed her but that his story was bullshit. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Zella

[MaggieG]

8 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I guess the part that I'm confused about is whether Chrissie Bixler's comment "I know what happened in Toronto" refers to Lily or Kathy. I can find ample stuff about Kathy. I find nothing about Lily.

Not to relitigate the whole Toronto thing but I took Chrissie's comment to mean something happened to Mila in Toronto. 

[Danielg342]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

According to Aaron Smith-Levin, who was in Scientology and now is one of its most vocal opponents, he has confirmed the story independently with other Scientologists who knew Ashton Kutcher, as well as multiple LAPD detectives. He said Chrissy was one of his sources for his YouTube video about it earlier this year before Danny Masterson was even found guilty and before Chrissy spoke about it publicly on social media, but she was not the only one who talked to him. According to him, Kutcher made multiple phone calls to people that night, and the police knew right away his story was bullshit because he couldn't have seen what he claimed to see from outside the house. He was called in for questioning repeatedly because they knew he hadn't killed her but that his story was bullshit. 

Which only really reinforces my point. A lot of people, including people in position of authority, knew this supposed "truth" and yet Ashton Kutcher still told his story in a court of law without it getting challenged at all.

In related news, the saga of Chrissie Bixler continues:

(Source)

 

[Makai]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Which only really reinforces my point. A lot of people, including people in position of authority, knew this supposed "truth" and yet Ashton Kutcher still told his story in a court of law without it getting challenged at all.

I feel like multiple sources confirming the same story is evidence that it is true not that it is a lie. I don’t see it not be challenged in court being a problem. What the police and lawyers suspect is not the same as what can be proven. There doesn’t seem to be anything to be gained by challenging him on it during his testimony. The defense had a different alternate theory to float in the trial. Kutcher really only helped established the timeline. 

[Lugal]

20 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I will say that Mila was an impressionable 14-year old.  If it's true that people on the set were chilly to the one guy who didn't party with them, and everyone thought it was a 'ha ha' funny prank, it's really easy to convince yourself that you think it's funny too.  Cuz you're young and you want to be seen as cool like your older cast mates.

Kutcher had that prank show Punk'd in the early 2000's.  He always kind of struck me as having a bit of a mean streak (not saying's he's as bad as Danny, but I could see how he would fall in with him)

8 minutes ago, Makai said:

I feel like multiple sources confirming the same story is evidence that it is true not that it is a lie. I don’t see it not be challenged in court being a problem. What the police and lawyers suspect is not the same as what can be proven. There doesn’t seem to be anything to be gained by challenging him on it during his testimony. The defense had a different alternate theory to float in the trial. Kutcher really only helped established the timeline. 

It sounds like they had a strong enough case against Gargiulo that Even if Kutcher's story doesn't hold up, it doesn't really matter.  (I'm not a lawyer so take this for what it's worth) It may give Gargiulo grounds for appeal, but I don't think it will get him off.  However, I would think Kutcher could be on the hook for perjury if it did turn out to be true.

[Danielg342]

21 minutes ago, Makai said:

I feel like multiple sources confirming the same story is evidence that it is true not that it is a lie.

Many people believe the Earth is flat. They claim to have sources too. Are they telling the truth?

There are two named sources peddling this story, and both have an axe to grind against Scientology. So, right from the beginning, I'm hesitant to believe their story because their bias is quite clear.

30 minutes ago, Makai said:

What the police and lawyers suspect is not the same as what can be proven.

That's not at issue. At issue is the fact that, if this alternate story about Ashton Kutcher is true, lawyers risked putting someone who was going to peddle a faulty story on the stand. No lawyer who is even halfway competent would do that.

If they did, the other side of the courtroom would metaphorically rip the witness apart. So, if the prosecution put Kutcher on the stand with a faulty story, the defence would certainly expose him. You may not think that matters, but juries have acquitted people for far less.

We can quibble about whether or not courts actually reach the level of truthfulness they set to achieve. However, the point remains that a court of law has a higher standard of proof than some Internet podcast.

41 minutes ago, Lugal said:

(I'm not a lawyer so take this for what it's worth) It may give Gargiulo grounds for appeal, but I don't think it will get him off.

I'm not a lawyer either, so I don't know if Michael Gargiulo could win an appeal based simply on Kutcher's story being faulty. However, his defence would absolute morons if they didn't at least try. The fact they have not is telling.

15 minutes ago, Lugal said:

However, I would think Kutcher could be on the hook for perjury if it did turn out to be true.

The perjury point is a good one. I thought of that myself but didn't raise it. It's another point that raises skepticism about the alternate story about Kutcher, because, if it were indeed true, Kutcher would have been shown to be lying on the stand and a prosecutor would have a field day with him- and I'm sure he would get prosecuted, since glory hound prosecutors love the attention such a case would bring.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

However, I would think Kutcher could be on the hook for perjury if it did turn out to be true.

True but perjury is rarely prosecuted.  It's usually only done if there is strict evidence proving perjury and it directly affects the outcome of the trial.  I am not a lawyer but I don't think his testimony was directly about the convicted perpetrator  and he said/they said probably isn't enough to prove perjury.

[AstridM]

On 9/11/2023 at 4:30 PM, Dani said:

Yeah. Wilmer Valderrama is also a creep.

We knew that way back when he was dating a child. 

[Jaded]

More letters — from Ethan Suplee and others — on behalf of Danny Masterson to Judge Olmedo

[Jaded]

From Leah Remini's Substack...

Please Read...The Statements That Matter

Quote

Many people are focusing on what celebrities think of Danny Masterson. We must focus on what the survivors think of him and how he and Scientology impacted their lives.

 

[bluegirl147]

9 hours ago, Jaded said:

More letters — from Ethan Suplee and others — on behalf of Danny Masterson to Judge Olmedo

I hope his victims have as many people supporting them as Masterson has supporting him. 

[BetterButter]

Justin Roiland used his ‘Rick and Morty’ fame to pursue young fans, text messages show

Quote

Roiland’s former fans and dates described disturbing interactions with the animator, with many playing out over texts. One woman said the ‘Rick and Morty’ creator sexually assaulted her, another said she was left ‘traumatized.’ (Warning: This article contains explicit language.)

 

[Bastet]

9 hours ago, Jaded said:

Please Read...The Statements That Matter

This broke my heart, from Jen B., whose mom texted her saying never contact me again, because she wanted Masterson brought to justice but not at the expense of Scientology:

Quote

I have a letter from my mother's where she wrote to the leader of the Church of Scientology, David Miscavige, and demanded justice for me. Even if it was just the Scientology version of it, a different version of justice. I sometimes read what she wrote back then while I was still in the good graces of Scientology, back when I mattered. She loved me then, I think. She seemed to care what happened to her daughter. I read it sometimes on Mother’s Day or times just to remember how it felt to have a mom.

Remini is right, that these are the statements the media and public should be focused on; not Masterson's cronies extolling his virtues, but the victims getting the chance to say for the record all the things he took from them that they've never gotten back.  And the judge telling him:

Quote

Mr. Masterson, you are not the victim here. Your actions 20 years ago took away another person’s voice and choice. Your actions 20 years ago were criminal, and that is why you are here.

 

[Mabinogia]

Not a single on of the letters of support for Masterson make me think better of him, but they do make me question the integrity and morals of the writers. It is fine if they want to stand by their shitty friend, but he should not get off lightly for ruining people's lives just because he's famous with famous friends. 

[Blergh]

50 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Not a single on of the letters of support for Masterson make me think better of him, but they do make me question the integrity and morals of the writers. It is fine if they want to stand by their shitty friend, but he should not get off lightly for ruining people's lives just because he's famous with famous friends. 

The amazing irony of all the letterbombing is that it's wound up  seemed having  gotten a significant portion of the media (online and conventional) as well as the public to take a good hard look as to what their actual roles were behind the scenes! IOW, to say that this wound up backfiring on them (especially Mr. Kutcher and Miss Kunis) is an understatement!

'Buzzard of a feather. .. ' and 'Lay With Dogs/Awaken With Fleas' seem quite apt here (apologies in advance to all  actual buzzards, dogs and fleas).

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, Blergh said:

The amazing irony of all the letterbombing is that it's wound up  seemed having  gotten a significant portion of the media (online and conventional) as well as the public to take a good hard look as to what their actual roles were behind the scenes! IOW, to say that this wound up backfiring on them (especially Mr. Kutcher and Miss Kunis) is an understatement!

That's the part that's most mind-boggling to me about those letters. Alongside all the obvious reasons why this was a supremely bad idea, am I to seriously believe they never once stopped to think about the possibility that those letters would be leaked to the public at some point? In this day and age? With social media and the 24/7 media being what it is? With MeToo being such a prevalent topic of conversation the last few years? REALLY? 

And they can't even use the excuse of being young novice celebrities who are new to navigating fame. They've been in this business for years. They know full well how this stuff works by now. The backlash really should not be a surprise to them. 

They want to support the guy, that's their deal, stupid though that decision may be. But maybe at least be smart/savvy enough to, I dunno, not voice that support in any way, shape, or form that could be made public at some point? 

[Vermicious Knid]

Kathy Griffin slams Ashton and Mila for supporting Danny Masterson, revealing she couldn't get the police to arrest her pedophile brother.

Quote

"It was a horrible, horrible thing and I tried to get him caught. Now this was my brother so I don’t want to hear about Ashton and Mila and Giovanni Ribisi and people that feel like they had to stick up for Danny Masterson because he was their ‘bro’, he was their buddy. This was my own brother," she said, adding that she was "shunned" by some of her family over her attempts to have him jailed....

"I don't really care that when they were working on 'That '70s Show' he was like a good guy to work with, and he worked actively to keep people off drugs because he's a Scientologist," she said.

In related news, NFT-funded animated series Stoner Cats starring Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis fined $1 million by the SEC.

Quote

 

Stoner Cats, which follows a group of sentient cats as they look after their marijuana-smoking owner who is suffering from early Alzheimer's disease, sold more than 10,000 NFTs for a profit of $8 million in order to finance the series. By doing so, the SEC said that the series' creators, Stoner Cats 2 LLC (SC2), violated the Securities Act of 1933 by "offering and selling these crypto asset securities to the public in an unregistered offering that was not exempt from registration," per a press release...

On its website, Stoner Cats — which was created by Ash Brannon (Surf's Up, Rock Dog), Chris Cartagena, and Sarah Cole — states that Kunis and her partners at Orchard Farm Productions were touched by the series' premise and, to support it, "formed a formidable collective of voice talent, animators, and creatives of all kinds to come together with technology and NFT experts (including the brilliant minds behind CryptoKitties) to bring this story to life using NFTs." 

Kunis is also credited as a member of the series' production team and blockchain team on its website.

 

[Danielg342]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

They want to support the guy, that's their deal, stupid though that decision may be. But maybe at least be smart/savvy enough to, I dunno, not voice that support in any way, shape, or form that could be made public at some point? 

If I'm giving Danny Masterson's supporters the benefit of the doubt, I would say they made a calculation between the importance of sticking up for their friend and the inevitable backlash they would receive because of it. They probably thought sticking up for Masterson was worth the backlash they would receive. Typically, while stories that "X stood up for Masterson" generate some buzz, the supporter likely knows by the end of the next news cycle, the wider public will have forgotten that the person wrote a letter in support of Masterson in the first place.

I mean, Masterson's supporters didn't actually commit the crime, Masterson did.

I know I'm (not yet) a celebrity, but my guess writing a letter of support is probably far lower on the totem pole of scandalous actions a celebrity could do than other activities.

10 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Not a single on of the letters of support for Masterson make me think better of him, but they do make me question the integrity and morals of the writers.

A few of them said, "I'm a judge of character, and I don't see how Danny could be seen as a predator"...which is how a predator usually operates. Only a victim really sees the predator side of a predator. There may be a few "telltale" signs if you really look for them, but you would have to actually look for them and most people don't.

I still find it telling that none of the letters ever address the crimes Masterson committed or hint at any remorse for those actions. I wonder if, legally, the letter writers are told they can't talk about the crimes Masterson was convicted of, out of fears it could jeopardize an appeal. It's the only non-malicious explanation I can give for why the writers ignore Masterson's crimes.

[bluegirl147]

50 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I still find it telling that none of the letters ever address the crimes Masterson committed or hint at any remorse for those actions. I wonder if, legally, the letter writers are told they can't talk about the crimes Masterson was convicted of, out of fears it could jeopardize an appeal. It's the only non-malicious explanation I can give for why the writers ignore Masterson's crimes.

I noticed that too. Do they all think he is innocent?  Do they think these women were lying? I really wasn't a fan of the 70s Show and didn't care about Masterson one way or another.  But I never really got a good guy vibe from him. So to hear all these people talk about how wonderful he is just doesn't ring true for me.  

[Miss Bones]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:42 AM, AstridM said:

We knew that way back when he was dating a child. 

Which time?  😔

[Mabinogia]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

They want to support the guy, that's their deal, stupid though that decision may be. But maybe at least be smart/savvy enough to, I dunno, not voice that support in any way, shape, or form that could be made public at some point? 

I think it is pretty telling that they wanted to support their friend enough to write the letters, but they didn't want anyone to know they did that. Clearly they knew how bad it would look to support a rapist, and they did it anyway because he never raped anyone that mattered to them so he's a "good guy".

They should support him through the jail time he 100% deserves, not try to get him off because he's a good friend to them. 

[Jaded]

1 hour ago, Miss Bones said:

Which time?  😔

Yep. There were a few of them. Hilary Duff and Lindsay Lohan come to mind. 
 

‘That ‘70s Show’ Star Wilmer Valderrama’s Gross Howard Stern Interview from 2006

[Jaded]

Ashton made one of those gross Olsen twins turning 18 comments then added Hillary Duff too. 

Ashton Kutcher’s vulgar comment about 15-year-old Hilary Duff resurfaces online
*

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Jaded

[Annber03]

16 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

If I'm giving Danny Masterson's supporters the benefit of the doubt, I would say they made a calculation between the importance of sticking up for their friend and the inevitable backlash they would receive because of it. They probably thought sticking up for Masterson was worth the backlash they would receive. Typically, while stories that "X stood up for Masterson" generate some buzz, the supporter likely knows by the end of the next news cycle, the wider public will have forgotten that the person wrote a letter in support of Masterson in the first place.

I mean, Masterson's supporters didn't actually commit the crime, Masterson did.

I know I'm (not yet) a celebrity, but my guess writing a letter of support is probably far lower on the totem pole of scandalous actions a celebrity could do than other activities.

A few of them said, "I'm a judge of character, and I don't see how Danny could be seen as a predator"...which is how a predator usually operates. Only a victim really sees the predator side of a predator. There may be a few "telltale" signs if you really look for them, but you would have to actually look for them and most people don't.

The thing about them sticking up for their friend - I know that's what they think they were doing, and I take your point about them willing to take the risk that came with that, but...mean, do they remember how people acted when Phylicia Rashad came out in defense of Bill Cosby? Nobody was like, "Aw, how nice, she's standing up for her co-star", they were all, "What the FUCK is wrong with you?" 

I just...don't see how they thought there was any possible upside to this, even on a personal level. Surely Masterson would've already known he had their support without them needing to go to those lengths to show it. 

Don't get me wrong, I can very much sympathize with the whole thing of someone trying to come to terms with the idea that a person they thought they trusted and knew wasn't who they thought they were, and could be capable of doing such awful things. If Ashton, Mila, and anyone else defending Masterson were focusing more on that aspect of things, trying to sort out their own conflicted feelings, maybe some people might even get on board with that. Not too many, I don't think, mind because they'd still be making it about themselves and their feelings, but still, at least it'd be a potentially more understanding angle to explore, because I think a lot of people can relate to that kind of betrayal of trust and judgment, and it could open up some much needed conversations about how to deal, or not deal, with those feelings. 

And hell, I'll even perhaps extend a little more possible leeway to Mila, because she was a minor when she got into this business, and she was pretty exploited herself over the years, so I could perhaps see that affecting her attitude on these matters to some degree as a result. Not that that excuses the letter, but perhaps it might explain it to some degree. Maybe. 

But with all the stories coming out now about how the guys behaved on set in general, and Ashton's own creepy comments about women over the years, his letter seems less like someone trying to stick up for the friend they once knew/thought they knew and more like a "birds of a feather" situation. He may not be on Masterson's level, but his behavior also seems to explain one reason why they got along as they did. 

And, as others have noted here, given his work with bringing attention to the horrors of human trafficking, that makes his actions here even more nonsensical and dumb. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Annber03

[Laura Holt]

18 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I just...don't see how they thought there was any possible upside to this, even on a personal level. Surely Masterson would've already known he had their support without them needing to go to those lengths to show it. 

Do these kinds of letters ever work to mitigate a sentence for someone I wonder.  I imagine there have been studies done about it and I am going to assume sometimes it must make a difference but in a case like Masterson's was there ever any reason to believe he would have gotten a light or lighter sentence?

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

Do these kinds of letters ever work to mitigate a sentence for someone I wonder.  I imagine there have been studies done about it and I am going to assume sometimes it must make a difference but in a case like Masterson's was there ever any reason to believe he would have gotten a light or lighter sentence?

In the true crime cases I've followed, the judge usually seems decidedly unimpressed and unswayed by them. I happily defer to any of our resident lawyers for an inside scoop, though. 

[Blergh]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:49 PM, Vermicious Knid said:

Kathy Griffin slams Ashton and Mila for supporting Danny Masterson, revealing she couldn't get the police to arrest her pedophile brother.

In related news, NFT-funded animated series Stoner Cats starring Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis fined $1 million by the SEC.

I don't usually say this but. .HOORAY FOR MISS GRIFFIN both for attempting to try to spare those poor kids from her criminal DNA linked kin and for calling out the others for trying to get Mr. Masterston off the hookeroo because. .. it seems they feel obligates since he acted with them on a show decades ago that's long since been cancelled.

As for Mr. Kutcher's and Miss Kunis's . ..project! Good that they got nailed by the SEC but I can't believe anyone would put down REAL monies to pay for a copy of a copy of a copy that somehow was supposed to produce something to eventually reap actual monies back to the original funders . And, to each one's own but, as for subject matter, I wouldn't watch that for all the Monopoly Money in Fort Knox much less PAY for any of it!

[Danielg342]

 

4 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

Do these kinds of letters ever work to mitigate a sentence for someone I wonder.  I imagine there have been studies done about it and I am going to assume sometimes it must make a difference but in a case like Masterson's was there ever any reason to believe he would have gotten a light or lighter sentence?

A lot depends on the circumstances, like if the defendant is a repeat offender, the type of crime that was committed and temperament of the judge considering the sentence, but character reference letters can help reduce a defendant's sentence.

It's possible that the letters for Danny Masterson were not going to help him one bit, but I don't blame his family and friends for trying.

It is, @Annber03, the only logical reason I can give for why Masterson's friends wrote the letters. I know Phylicia Rashad was basically roasted for sticking up for Bill Cosby, but Rashad wasn't writing a letter to a judge in Cosby's defence, she sent out a tweet after Cosby was (momentarily) freed.

That's a crucial difference.

I don't know the legalities surrounding whether or not sentencing letters to the judge can be released to the public or not, and, I grant, perhaps Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis et all should have known better about it, but I don't believe Masterson's friends wrote the letters believing they would be seen by the public, let alone get any attention.

More importantly, I believe Masterson's friends wrote the letters within the context of talking to the judge to make her consider the person they knew when she considers her sentence. This is substantially different than loudly proclaiming, in public, that Masterson is innocent. No, Kutcher et all wrote to the judge knowing that Masterson was found guilty. A number of letters- including Kutcher's- tried to tell the judge that while Masterson did a really horrible thing, he is not a horrible person and he can be rehabilitated and be a productive member of society.

The context these letters were written in have to matter. We can quibble about whether or not Masterson is a truly bad person or if he's simply someone who did something bad at some point in his life, but that's not at the centre of this issue.

No. I'm sure those who wrote letters in support of Masterson would all say, to a person, that they do not deny what Masterson did and that he should be punished for it. They are merely saying, "don't throw the book at him to teach him a lesson, because the light sentence would be enough of a lesson".

Look, I'm not trying to say that those who chose to support Masterson are above criticism. They're choosing to support someone who was convicted of a heinous and serious crime, and they can't escape that. I'm just not sure writing a letter of support makes them as bad as Masterson, and I think if anyone criticizes them for writing the letters, they should at least consider the context upon which they were written.

[Miss Bones]

14 hours ago, Jaded said:

Yep. There were a few of them. Hilary Duff and Lindsay Lohan come to mind. 
 

‘That ‘70s Show’ Star Wilmer Valderrama’s Gross Howard Stern Interview from 2006

Yep, and apparently Demi Lovato when she was 17!  And he was even older at that point, than he was when he dated took advantage of the 2 you mentioned!

[AstridM]

16 hours ago, Jaded said:

Ashton made one of those gross Olsen twins turning 18 comments then added Hillary Duff too. 

Ashton Kutcher’s vulgar comment about 15-year-old Hilary Duff resurfaces online
*

 

That was such a gross time. 

[Jaded]

Ashton Kutcher, Who Sought Leniency for Convicted Rapist, Resigns From Sex Trafficking Prevention Org

Jonathan Majors Trial Delayed for Third Time

[Danielg342]

6 hours ago, AstridM said:

That was such a gross time. 

I still remember all the countdowns to when people like Emma Watson would turn 18.

[Jaded]

‘Dancing With the Stars’ Alum Sharna Burgess Calls Out Show for Casting Adrian Peterson After Child Abuse Charge

[JustHereForFood]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

I still remember all the countdowns to when people like Emma Watson would turn 18.

As if any of those creeps ever had a chance...