S16.E13: Week 13

[catrice2]

51 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

I will be nasty and say I find it disconcerting that his mouth is always hanging open a little bit.

@Alexander Pope  You make me feel so much better about my shallow thoughts about Ben. I searched high and low for the "hotness" but had to accept we all see something different.   He reminds me of a puppy.  But I will go on record to say that of the guys we saw Spencer and Brendan were the closest to cute and they were missing something.  Bodies is another story. Of what I saw, Kenny.  Ben's body was even shaped oddly to me. I think Riley may have been hiding a nice one, but I never saw him shirtless. In general I never think the men on this franchise are that attractive from Googled pictures or commercials.  

My final thoughts: 

I think Tayshia made the right choice for Tayshia and hope it works out because these are real lives. She wanted to move to New York, she wants to be a stay at home mom and no one else was going to offer her that chance.  She can be a high style lifestyle influencer and I think that will suit her.  Zac seems to be someone who had not had relationships  and would be a worshipper, and Tayshia seems to be someone who would want that, so it works.  Personally I don't think leaving alone was an option for her, so she made the best of it. 

  I didn't like any of the leads I saw, (Rachel/Ben abbreviated)  even after giving them wide latitude for editing and secretly have issues with anyone who goes on the show, but can tolerate some more than others. I understand this year more than any because heck, if someone had asked me  in the middle of COVID while we are all re evaluating our lives and don't know what comes next I would have went.....Tic Tacs ready....really Altoids. 

Oddly at the end I don't think he is attractive, an he did not connect for me, but Zac is the one I think was the most genuine. I side eye thanking someone 10 years later when you are in the media, but whatever it is part of the package.  I actually like him way more than Tayshia.  Anytime  you have to keep saying you are real an authentically yourself, you probably are not. 

My issue ultimately is with the manipulation and pretense.  Just as Tayshia had already told Rachel Zac was it, she was still pretending others had a shot and was willing to fake a rose ceremony.  I cannot respect that, or the fact that she was never into Ivan but involved his family thus resulting in his compromised father traveling during COVID to support his son.....it is these type of things that bother me.  I could never sign a contract that would make me act in a way that was not me for the sake of making moments for a show.  Had they traveled there would have been way more of that. 

  Clearly  she may have wanted to do a Claire and production shut that down, but I respect people who are true to themselves.  You can't do that no matter how nice a person you are when you sign a contract. That is why I  have a new respect for Claire, Brendan an anyone who walks away.  Also they are contractually obligated to do certain things after the show, so I get that.  And the contestants  making the most of the attention, but you can still do that with some class. I just hate the ones that hang on to it forever. They are human though and people can grow.   It certainly is a story to tell your children! 

Just to add, after listening to a podcast from a different perspective, I actually think production and Tayshia did Ben dirty in some ways and I am shocked that I am having more sympathy for him.  Especially with the above comment about Rachel...she never should have let him back.  

8 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

I'm watching the opening scene with Ben right now - haven't read any of your posts because I don't want to be spoiled - and I have to agree with those of you who are calling him a famewhore. There's stuff he says that are "tells" that (in my opinion) he's more interested in remaining on the show than with her. He says, "I want to tell you what I'm thinking" - I think she'd want to know what he's feeling (I would). He says that she "makes him feel like nothing he's felt like in his entire life and that's what I'm in love with", so he's more in love with the feeling he gets from her than with Tayshia herself. He also seems kind of emotionally lazy. He just thought he'd get a rose and he could tell her more then.

I definitely don't think he's ready for a real commitment. He goes for what is safe - telling her he loves her after he's already rejected. He can say what he feels knowing there's no risk of really committing to it because he's already out of the running. Plus it makes him look good on TV, to come back as the rejected misunderstood lover.

I am having more sympathy for him, but I also think he was a willing participant to some of the shenanigans.  If not, they really did him wrong especially knowing his history. 

[Lamb18]

Oh no, Ivan! My favorite one! I am really curious now about what the religious conversation. But if their beliefs are a roadblock for Tayshia, it's better that she tell him now.

[AllyCat7]

7 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I’m positing we just go with good, ol’ Darwinism. The male species wants to spread their genes, whereas the female species looks for the partner with the best genes (or personality, values, abs, job, or what have you when talking about humans) to procreate with. Both the Bachelors and Bachelorettes have a large group of potential mates. The Bachelorettes choose the best mate to procreate with (or marry or be engaged to for a few months). The Bachelors do the same. I think those who actually are ready to settle down do get married. But then the others realize that having 25 women fighting to mate with them, plus potentially hundreds of thousand more fans out there, they still have the opportunity to spread their seed out in the wild, figuratively speaking.

The last part of your post brings to light a very valid issue...the show itself changes what these men want...going from wanting to settle down with one woman and get married to maybe wanting to keep playing the field after gaining fame. Also, I believe the Bachelorette mirrors real life dating more than the Bachelor--in that a woman is getting woo'ed by several men before choosing the one she likes best. Women traditionally don't initiate woo'ing, and especially not so if other women are in the picture. She will sit back until she is properly woo'ed and knows she is the only woman the man wants. At least this is how the beginning of relationships usually work. The middle and end is a different story. That being said, I think BIP mirrors reality the best among all three shows. It's why I enjoy watching it the most and I feel it has a higher success rate than the other shows lately.

[DEL901]

6 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

That being said, I think BIP mirrors reality the best among all three shows. It's why I enjoy watching it the most and I feel it has a higher success rate than the other shows lately.

I just posted in the BiP media thread.  Carly and Evan are kaput.   Krystal and Chris are divorcing.  The first couple never bothered to register their marriage and she ended up ghosting him.  I think that Only leaves Jade and Tanner.  Three kids, but she never seems really happy in her photos.   Did I miss any marriages?    Btw, one couple going strong that everyone thought would fail...Dean and Caelynn.   

[Lamb18]

Ben's talking to Tayshia's mom. There he goes again, talking about being in love with how Tayshia makes him feel. Then he can "imagine" having children with her. I guess I'm watching this as an adult over twice their age, from a motherly or auntly perspective. How would I want a young man my daughter or niece is thinking of marrying to talk about her? And so far Ben hasn't said much to make me confident about him.

Of course in real life a young man very likely would not be talking to me about his feelings for a daughter or niece. Instead I would be watching how he treated her and listen to how he talks to her.

[AllyCat7]

3 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

I just posted in the BiP media thread.  Carly and Evan are kaput.   Krystal and Chris are divorcing.  The first couple never bothered to register their marriage and she ended up ghosting him.  I think that Only leaves Jade and Tanner.  Three kids, but she never seems really happy in her photos.   Did I miss any marriages?    Btw, one couple going strong that everyone thought would fail...Dean and Caelynn.   

Oh man. Ok, I take that back lol. I think Raven and her man are still together. Don't think they are married yet, though.

[Lamb18]

Tayshia's dad said nice things but I don't think he was too impressed with Ben as a potential husband for his daughter. I'm curious to see how he is with Zac.

[chocolatine]

17 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

How do we know Zac’s family is loaded? 

I was curious about this so I did some sleuthing. Apparently Zac's dad founded this company that seems to be worth a lot of money, and both of Zac's siblings are involved in it as well. The company took in $80M in funding earlier this year, so it isn't completely family-owned, but I'm sure Zac's parents and siblings do very well. Zac does not seem to be involved with that company though, so I'm not sure about *his* finances, whether his family helped him fund his sober living facilities, or how much money he's making from the facilities.

[Lamb18]

Tayshia's dad's face as he talked about Zac - you can tell he really likes Zac. I like Zac, too. He seems really grown up. I hope Zac is the one she chooses. Ben really isn't there yet.

 

@saber5055, is it snowing down your way? We have a big storm going up here in Minnesota.

[Lamb18]

So did her dad warn her against or express doubts about someone specifically? Because he really didn't say much of any substance when he visited Tayshia.

[Ms Blue Jay]

49 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

I just posted in the BiP media thread.  Carly and Evan are kaput.   Krystal and Chris are divorcing.  The first couple never bothered to register their marriage and she ended up ghosting him.  I think that Only leaves Jade and Tanner.  Three kids, but she never seems really happy in her photos.   Did I miss any marriages?    Btw, one couple going strong that everyone thought would fail...Dean and Caelynn.   

Yeah, I still say Bachelorette has the highest success rate.

[Lamb18]

The difference between Zac and Ben:

Ben says Tayshia is perfect for him.

Zac is more concerned about being perfect, rather, the best person he can be for Tayshia.

There is still 22 minutes to go. I'm wondering what else is going to happen besides the proposal.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Lamb18

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, Lamb18 said:

So did her dad warn her against or express doubts about someone specifically? Because he really didn't say much of any substance when he visited Tayshia.

That whole thing was so weird.  There must have been some stuff edited out because she was so freaked out, but he said no specifics that we saw.  If someone whose opinion I valued so strongly said something about me possibly making the biggest mistake of my life, I would want to know what they had seen/heard that made them say that.

2 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

He says, "I want to tell you what I'm thinking" - I think she'd want to know what he's feeling (I would). He says that she "makes him feel like nothing he's felt like in his entire life and that's what I'm in love with", so he's more in love with the feeling he gets from her than with Tayshia herself. 

Bingo.  Plus he said it multiple times.  And even when the dad asked specifically what it is about Tayshia that he is in love with, he again said it was how she makes him feel.  I believe that he was being genuine, but in a relationship, there are many times that your feelings for the other person are far from positive, which mean that there needs to be something behind just the feelings.

[Lamb18]

The power went out during the proposal (at my house). It's finally back on so now I can watch the rest of the episode.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Lamb18

[Lamb18]

That ended really well. I hope they are happy together! I liked the happy ending.

Now the new bachelor (already forgot his name) - in the preview you saw in the shower and there was a big brown square on his chest, was that from waxing?

[Stats Queen]

4 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

He also seems kind of emotionally lazy. He just thought he'd get a rose and he could tell her more then.

I

Emotionally lazy, so well said for Ben and many others. Is it okay if I use this phrase on some people I know?

[Lamb18]

23 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Now, she hasn't mentioned religion with anyone...and in most religions suicide is a no no, so we are supposed to believe this is about religion?  She who mentions her faith is so important?   This edit was so that people didn't blame Tayshia!!!! WTF!!

I thought that their religious differences came up in the fantasy suite. They stayed up all night talking.

She's mentioned her faith to different guys but we haven't been shown any in-depth conversation about religious beliefs.

[Stats Queen]

Just now, Lamb18 said:

She's mentioned her faith to different guys but we haven't been shown any in-depth conversation about religious beliefs.

This was just so frustrating, because we, the viewers, were left bewildered, because we had absolutely no context for this conversation. 

So either it was a poor editing/producing job and all conversations about faith and beliefs were edited out or Tayshia did not have a discussion about faith with her potential, potential husbands prior to the fantasy suites. One is a really bad look for the producers the other is not a good look for Tayshia. Either way, it was a disservice to us viewers who are stuck at home and and watching this show because we really do ask so little from this franchise, but no context is no bueno.

[Jax7917]

5 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

This was just so frustrating, because we, the viewers, were left bewildered, because we had absolutely no context for this conversation. 

So either it was a poor editing/producing job and all conversations about faith and beliefs were edited out or Tayshia did not have a discussion about faith with her potential, potential husbands prior to the fantasy suites. One is a really bad look for the producers the other is not a good look for Tayshia. Either way, it was a disservice to us viewers who are stuck at home and and watching this show because we really do ask so little from this franchise, but no context is no bueno.

What The editors / producers think we want to see: “ I’m falling in love with you .” “ I can see a life with you .” ( for the 10,000th time .) 

What we actually want to see : real talk - beliefs , views , having fun, laughing , actually getting to know each other . 

[deSchenke]

I have hesitated in posting because I didn’t want to come across as insensitive.  Firstly, if Ben had two failed suicide attempts (in 2018 and 2019, no less!), he shouldn’t have come on this show, which can edit you in any way they please and screw with your mind.

But his reason for loving Tayshia was all about how she “made him feel”, was possibly the worst reason to express his love for her. I don’t know if it was his lack of being able to vocalize his feelings, or his immaturity. Frankly, I was embarrassed for him when he was talking to Tayshia’s father.

And I hope that TPTB do not entertain the idea of Ben for Bachelor!  Because I will not watch.  He’s in too fragile a mental state and I don’t want to see that exploited.

[Lamb18]

21 hours ago, SideEye said:

Both Tayshia and Zac are articulate and that was a um, you know, ahh, like, you know,  a very nice surprise!

You forgot a word!

[adore]

4 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

I have hesitated in posting because I didn’t want to come across as insensitive.  Firstly, if Ben had two failed suicide attempts (in 2018 and 2019, no less!), he shouldn’t have come on this show, which can edit you in any way they please and screw with your mind.

But his reason for loving Tayshia was all about how she “made him feel”, was possibly the worst reason to express his love for her. I don’t know if it was his lack of being able to vocalize his feelings, or his immaturity. Frankly, I was embarrassed for him when he was talking to Tayshia’s father.

And I hope that TPTB do not entertain the idea of Ben for Bachelor!  Because I will not watch.  He’s in too fragile a mental state and I don’t want to see that exploited.

I truly cannot imagine Ben carrying a show.  Sometimes his awkward pauses suggest that he's being thoughtful and wanting to make a good impression, but maybe that's giving him too much credit? Also, his flat affect disturbs me. He doesn't seem "present" and having several women vying for his affection would probably disorient him!

 

 

[Stats Queen]

9 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

I have hesitated in posting because I didn’t want to come across as insensitive.  Firstly, if Ben had two failed suicide attempts (in 2018 and 2019, no less!), he shouldn’t have come on this show, which can edit you in any way they please and screw with your mind.

But his reason for loving Tayshia was all about how she “made him feel”, was possibly the worst reason to express his love for her. I don’t know if it was his lack of being able to vocalize his feelings, or his immaturity. Frankly, I was embarrassed for him when he was talking to Tayshia’s father.

And I hope that TPTB do not entertain the idea of Ben for Bachelor!  Because I will not watch.  He’s in too fragile a mental state and I don’t want to see that exploited.

If his last suicide attempt was in 2019, he should have never has been allowed on the show, that’s just dangerous and reckless on ABC’s part, but sadly not atypical of reality shows, and that really is scary.

I want nothing but good things for Ben and his future. With those attempts he should be seeing a trained professional and should never have gone on a show where everyone saw his struggles.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Stats Queen

[nlkm9]

Just now, Stats Queen said:

If his last suicide attempt was in 2019, he should have never been allowed on the show, that’s just dangerous and reckless on ABC’s part, but sadly nor atypical of reality shows, and really is scary.

I want nothing but good things for Ben and his future. With those attempts he should be seeing a trained professional and should never have gone on a show where everyone saw his struggles.

💯!!!! He should not be involved in this show, i agree with his admitted suicide attempts the franchise should just back away from him. I do feel very sorry for him and wonder how his sister and friend are coping with the revelations from the show. I truly hope he is getting the help he needs .

[Lamb18]

47 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

Emotionally lazy, so well said for Ben and many others. Is it okay if I use this phrase on some people I know?

You sure can!

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, Stats Queen said:

This was just so frustrating, because we, the viewers, were left bewildered, because we had absolutely no context for this conversation. 

So either it was a poor editing/producing job and all conversations about faith and beliefs were edited out or Tayshia did not have a discussion about faith with her potential, potential husbands prior to the fantasy suites. One is a really bad look for the producers the other is not a good look for Tayshia. Either way, it was a disservice to us viewers who are stuck at home and and watching this show because we really do ask so little from this franchise, but no context is no bueno.

Additionally, I wonder if part of the abrupt ending for Ivan was respecting his wishes. He has now come out and stated he is agnostic today and many of his family and friends did not know. I can totally understand Ivan’s hesitation to share on camera and tayshia respected him by not spelling it out for the audience. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[Just Carol]

I forced my husband to watch the finale, the certain parts where Zac is being so romantic and professing his love so openly and intensely.  I did this because I wanted the show to set an example for him.  Boy, did that backfire. 

I wish my husband would say that he loved me.   He replied that he is the type never to say "I love you" and that I knew that when I married him. He says the show is all scripted, fake, and poorly written.  He thinks he could write better "dialogue."  

I get that there is producer manipulation, retakes, Stockholm Syndrome.  I get that the producers force the B'ette to keep certain men just for drama, and devise shitty dates.  I get that the producers shove a camera into people's faces and ask them leading questions until they cry.  But the tears are real, and I believe (in this case, anyway), that the F1 is real, and that they love each other.

I need to stop watching this show; it just makes me miserable.

[chocolatine]

Ivan went on Kaitlyn Bristowe's podcast today and explained about the religious differences. I didn't listen to the podcast, but there's a writeup of it on the People website. TLDR: Ivan is agnostic (*not* an atheist); the subject came up when they were in the FS and Tayshia asked him if he'd want to raise his children to be religious; he said he was OK with children experiencing religion and going to church, but he was not going to pretend to believe in things that he doesn't. Of course it's just his side of the story, but it sounds very reasonable and makes me respect him more. I think it was just a convenient excuse for Tayshia to eliminate him. If he had been her chosen one, I don't think agnosticism would have been a deal breaker.

[dirtypop90]

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Ivan went on Kaitlyn Bristowe's podcast today and explained about the religious differences. I didn't listen to the podcast, but there's a writeup of it on the People website. TLDR: Ivan is agnostic (*not* an atheist); the subject came up when they were in the FS and Tayshia asked him if he'd want to raise his children to be religious; he said he was OK with children experiencing religion and going to church, but he was not going to pretend to believe in things that he doesn't. Of course it's just his side of the story, but it sounds very reasonable and makes me respect him more. I think it was just a convenient excuse for Tayshia to eliminate him. If he had been her chosen one, I don't think agnosticism would have been a deal breaker.

Tayshia is a conservative Christian. She said her and Zac pray daily, together. Would have absolutely been an issue. Ivan would not have wanted to be with tayshia either (speaking for agnostic friends who stay far away from religious people, romantically)

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[catrice2]

6 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Ivan went on Kaitlyn Bristowe's podcast today and explained about the religious differences. I didn't listen to the podcast, but there's a writeup of it on the People website. TLDR: Ivan is agnostic (*not* an atheist); the subject came up when they were in the FS and Tayshia asked him if he'd want to raise his children to be religious; he said he was OK with children experiencing religion and going to church, but he was not going to pretend to believe in things that he doesn't. Of course it's just his side of the story, but it sounds very reasonable and makes me respect him more. I think it was just a convenient excuse for Tayshia to eliminate him. If he had been her chosen one, I don't think agnosticism would have been a deal breaker.

@chocolatineConservative Christian explains a lot to me about Tayshia .  What was more interesting to me was that he had no idea she was going to say it on national tv. He was ok with the break up, not mad about it or about her saying it, but apparently since it was said in Fantasy Suites he thought it was private as it is not something that he has shared with a lot of people. Not hiding it, just didn't have a reason to talk about it,  now of course he is dealing with all these questions about it, from all areas of his life especially as it was given with no context. You ask this before Hometowns!  He also said she didn't really act then like it was a deal breaker.  He had dated people before that were religious and accepted he was not so he did not think at the end of FS that it was that big of a deal. 

And yes, I think she was well aware that she had sold this whole, "there is nothing wrong with Ivan, he is perfect," but now she is saying she always knew it was Zac, so she knew she had to subtly let the audience know it was BIG  to make herself look better and like she was not just playing along.  I mean she vaguely told Ben "that their pages were not aligned....so why the need to clearly spell it out with Ivan? It is not like he was acting bewildered?  He knew what she was talking about when she said "we talked about some deep stuff," or whatever she said, and he responded something like he should have told her sooner, so it is not like she thought he didn't know what she was talking about.   Why be so dramatic when you weren't before with Ben?  And the lack of emotion....

I did listen to it, he is over it, positive, was complimentary of her and Zac, so I hope people don't try to paint him as bitter. He wisely said that someone who does not want him as he is is not the person for him.  I agree, and that goes both ways. 

 

[dirtypop90]

Tayshia didn’t say what Ivan’s views were out of respect for his privacy and there was a segment of the audience upset she didn’t say more and they didn’t hear the conversation. No winning here. But I’m not sure why he would think he could go on a show about marriage and not discuss religion with the woman he’s pursuing.

edited to add: that I agree with the point that stuff like that maybe needs to be asked before fantasy suite. Because Ivan shouldn’t have made it to hometowns. 
 

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[Stats Queen]

11 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Ivan went on Kaitlyn Bristowe's podcast today and explained about the religious differences. I didn't listen to the podcast, but there's a writeup of it on the People website. TLDR: Ivan is agnostic (*not* an atheist); the subject came up when they were in the FS and Tayshia asked him if he'd want to raise his children to be religious; he said he was OK with children experiencing religion and going to church, but he was not going to pretend to believe in things that he doesn't. Of course it's just his side of the story, but it sounds very reasonable and makes me respect him more. I think it was just a convenient excuse for Tayshia to eliminate him. If he had been her chosen one, I don't think agnosticism would have been a deal breaker.

The bubble is so sad because there is no time to figure out how you can work together in spite of and because of your differences.

I was a very devout Catholic until my ex abused me in every way imaginable during our short marriage and the Catholic Church made my annulment last twice as long as our marriage.

That being said, my personal Faith is what me the courage to leave my ex (thankfully, because otherwise I probably wouldn’t be alive to share this tale or any tale). My personal faith has never wavered, although my trust in religious institutions is forever broken.

I started dating my now husband after all of this and he is the most wonderful person anyone could meet. It was tough at the beginning since he is Jewish and I am Christian and in general, my personal connection to God and Jesus is just part of who I am - it was very important to me, but he always respected that as do his parents.

I am so happy that we have been married for over 25 years. At the end of the day, he is most “Christian” of men I have ever met in how he lives his life and how her respects me and my faith.

Being an atheist vs. an agnostic is a huge difference. 

 

 

 

[dirtypop90]

^ Thank you for sharing. I am Christian, and while I could consider marrying a man of a different faith, I would have trouble marrying a man who did not believe in anything at all.

If you want a “traditional” Christian marriage, which involves man submitting to God. (I’m assuming this is what tayshia wants) I don’t know how that’s feasible with an agnostic. Would be curious to know how Christian women make that work. I would think someone’s beliefs would have to change.

I believe Catherine was not a Christian before the show but is now and actually got baptized before marrying Sean.

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[AllyCat7]

2 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

What The editors / producers think we want to see: “ I’m falling in love with you .” “ I can see a life with you .” ( for the 10,000th time .) 

What we actually want to see : real talk - beliefs , views , having fun, laughing , actually getting to know each other . 

THIS! All of THIS!

[AllyCat7]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Additionally, I wonder if part of the abrupt ending for Ivan was respecting his wishes. He has now come out and stated he is agnostic today and many of his family and friends did not know. I can totally understand Ivan’s hesitation to share on camera and tayshia respected him by not spelling it out for the audience. 

The thing I'm confused about is didn't Tayshia say, before Ben arrived, that she was giving both roses to Zac and Ivan in that final rose ceremony?  I'm pretty sure she said that. If the religion thing became a factor after the FS date then why would she say she would give him a rose at that ceremony? So confusing.

43 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Tayshia is a conservative Christian. She said her and Zac pray daily, together. Would have absolutely been an issue. Ivan would not have wanted to be with tayshia either (speaking for agnostic friends who stay far away from religious people, romantically)

No offense, but I wouldn't necessarily call someone who does FS dates conservative. Christian? Sure. Conservative? Nah.

[dirtypop90]

10 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

The thing I'm confused about is didn't Tayshia say, before Ben arrived, that she was giving both roses to Zac and Ivan in that final rose ceremony?  I'm pretty sure she said that. If the religion thing became a factor after the FS date then why would she say she would give him a rose at that ceremony? So confusing.

Brendan left! He’s Christian. He would’ve totally got the second rose. I wonder if tayshia told the producer Ivan was a no go and that’s why we got that fake talk with Rachel about Ben and they went back and got Ben?

if you watch tayshia the morning after her FS with Ivan, she looked noticeably cold. I think he was totally going home until Brendan walked out. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

14 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

The thing I'm confused about is didn't Tayshia say, before Ben arrived, that she was giving both roses to Zac and Ivan in that final rose ceremony?  I'm pretty sure she said that. If the religion thing became a factor after the FS date then why would she say she would give him a rose at that ceremony? So confusing.

No offense, but I wouldn't necessarily call someone who does FS dates conservative. Christian? Sure. Conservative? Nah.

Why? You can literally spend FS up all night talking. I don’t know about tayshia’s FS. But I would consider Sean Lowe who did FS conservative, for sure, and he didn’t sleep with anyone. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90
iPad typos of course

[AllyCat7]

Just now, dirtypop90 said:

Why? You can literally spent FS up all night talking. I don’t know about tayshia. But I would consider Sean Lowe who did FS conservative for sure. 

I should have beens specific. I meant more using them to sleep together. Not judging. Just saying what would be considered conservative, that's all. Yeah, Sean was conservative in his approach. And like you said, we don't really know what went down in the suites, so I won't conjecture too much 🤪

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

edited to add: that I agree with the point that stuff like that maybe needs to be asked before fantasy suite. Because Ivan shouldn’t have made it to hometowns. 

If it was that important to Tayshia, she definitely should have brought it up much sooner. She and Ivan had a 1:1 date early on; she could have brought it up then.

15 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

I started dating my now husband after all of this and he is the most wonderful person anyone could meet. It was tough at the beginning since he is Jewish and I am Christian and in general, my personal connection to God and Jesus is just part of who I am - it was very important to me, but he always respected that as do his parents.

That to me is the crux of religious beliefs: they are personal and shouldn't have to change based on your relationships. I'm extremely wary of people who say their romantic partner absolutely must have the same religion and that children are to be raised in that religion with no outside influences, because that sounds much more like indoctrination than "shared values." Let's say Tayshia finds her "perfect" Christian husband, they make their kids go to church and Sunday school, and after all of that one of the kids decides they're atheist/agnostic or converts to another religion. Will Tayshia love and respect that child any less? Ivan's approach to expose children to different belief systems and let them decide for themselves is much more respectful and inclusive.

[AllyCat7]

17 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Brendan left! He’s Christian. He would’ve totally got the second rose. I wonder if tayshia told the producer Ivan was a no go and that’s why we got that fake talk with Rachel about Ben and they went back and got Ben?

if you watch tayshia the morning after her FS with Ivan, she looked noticeably cold. I think he was totally going home until Brendan walked out. 

Wow that's a good theory. I think it has a lot of merit. I will have to re-watch the "morning after Ivan" scenes. You are probably right. Or maybe she was still going to give a rose to Ivan since he was part of the final 2, but let the producers know that there were some doubts with him due to the FS date, and then the producers did the Rachel, Ben stuff. Interesting.

Edited December 24, 2020 by AllyCat7

[dirtypop90]

Just now, AllyCat7 said:

I should have beens specific. I meant more using them to sleep together. Not judging. Just saying what would be considered conservative, that's all. Yeah, Sean was conservative in his approach. And like you said, we don't really know what went down in the suites, so I won't conjecture too much 🤪

Got it. I did notice tayshia wasn’t show waking up with anyone like Sean wasn’t, which we typically see i.e. Clare and dale, hannah with peter and jed (and she’s Christian!). So it seems she at least cared about appearances unlike our typical leads lol

I think you have to say yes to FS because it’s the only time you get off camera even if you’re not interested in sex.

[dirtypop90]

Just now, chocolatine said:

If it was that important to Tayshia, she definitely should have brought it up much sooner. She and Ivan had a 1:1 date early on; she could have brought it up then.

There have been too many interviews but I’m sure I read a recap or two that said tayshia DID talk about religion on the show. The men knew her views. It was Ivan who didn’t bring up his views until FS, which is why he apologized for not bringing it up sooner. Ivan knew Tayshia’s beliefs. Tayshia was the one in the dark.

[Stats Queen]

1 minute ago, dirtypop90 said:

There have been too many interviews but I’m sure I read a recap or two that said tayshia DID talk about religion on the show. The men knew her views. It was Ivan who didn’t bring up his views until FS, which is why he apologized for not bringing it up sooner. Ivan knew Tayshia’s beliefs. Tayshia was the one in the dark.

If she did, the producers decided to edit all of that out - maybe her suitors knew, but we, the viewers, who are the money behind the show, knew nothing about this, which is what annoys me, because the editing took place after all the recording so they deliberately left us with no context. Seriously, us bachelor franchise watchers ask for so little (and expect so little) but context matters.

Thus, the reason for the split between Ivan and Tayshia about religion left so many of us scratching our heads.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Ivan would not have wanted to be with tayshia either (speaking for agnostic friends who stay far away from religious people, romantically)

Right.  They had their fantasy suite.  They talked about things.  Religion wasn't a deal breaker for him but it's also clear that he wasn't going to share that part of her life.  It sounds like she grew up where religion was a family endeavor and she wants that for her relationship and not a partner who doesn't engage with her on that level.  Therefore, finding a shared ground on that aspect was important for her. 

And sharing a faith is not unusual nor does it necessarily mean a lack of exposure to other ways of thinking.  My mom was Catholic.  My dad was Lutheran.  He converted because my mom wanted us to go to church together and she raised us as Catholic.  But even as a Catholic, that doesn't mean she was a strict adherent to everything the Pope said.  It also doesn't mean I'm unaware of other religions or couldn't go visit other places of worship. That's how my Catholic parents who raised daughters in the church ended up with one who is Christian but not really affiliated with a specific denomination and another (me) who is flat out agnostic. And while it made her sad, she knew that she had done what she could to raise me and I got to make my own choices as an adult. [Ivan, dude, you're 28.  It's time to man up and tell your parents you aren't religious.  I did it when I was 16.]

Christianity was important for Tayshia.  She also doesn't have to live a perfect and celibate life for that to be the case.

I kind of feel for Tayshia here.  When she let Riley and Blake go because, by the time they had open conversations, she had progressed farther with others, that reason wasn't specific enough.  Many wished she would get give Blake a better reason.

Now with Ivan, she gives a pretty specific reason that actually is seen by many as a relationship deal breaker and it's also not good enough. 

45 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Why? You can literally spent FS up all night talking. I don’t know about tayshia.

I am leaning towards Tayshia using that time to talk and get down to the nitty gritty about things.  And not just with Ivan. Zac said something in one of the interviews that fantasy suites "weren't what you think" which sounds exactly what someone outside of the Bachelor universe would say who doesn't realize he's supposed to continue the myth of everyone flat out bangs in the Fantasy Suite. 

I mean, it's possible that they did both but the focus has been more on the conversations about what a future would look like together.

29 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

There have been too many interviews but I’m sure I read a recap or two that said tayshia DID talk about religion on the show. The men knew her views. It was Ivan who didn’t bring up his views until FS, which is why he apologized for not bringing it up sooner. Ivan knew Tayshia’s beliefs. Tayshia was the one in the dark.

I think it was in the recap of his podcast interview with Kaitlyn.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Irlandesa

[dirtypop90]

6 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

If she did, the producers decided to edit all of that out - maybe her suitors knew, but we, the viewers, who are the money behind the show, knew nothing about this, which is what annoys me, because the editing took place after all the recording so they deliberately left us with no context. Seriously, us bachelor franchise watchers ask for so little (and expect so little) but context matters.

Thus, the reason for the split between Ivan and Tayshia about religion left so many of us scratching our heads.

I knew from her time on Colton’s season. That said, I do think the show might have been concerned about two years of religion talk in a row (Luke and Hannah and Madi and Peter) A good part of the audience is not Christian and doesn’t want to hear the lead or contestants talking about their views. And this year we had a contestant, Ivan, that didn’t want to talk about his views. Even if we saw the scenes of tayshia, we still would not have known Ivan’s because he purposefully didn’t talk about it on camera. So there’s no winning decision.

Edited December 24, 2020 by dirtypop90

[catrice2]

31 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

If it was that important to Tayshia, she definitely should have brought it up much sooner. She and Ivan had a 1:1 date early on; she could have brought it up then.

That to me is the crux of religious beliefs: they are personal and shouldn't have to change based on your relationships. I'm extremely wary of people who say their romantic partner absolutely must have the same religion and that children are to be raised in that religion with no outside influences, because that sounds much more like indoctrination than "shared values." Let's say Tayshia finds her "perfect" Christian husband, they make their kids go to church and Sunday school, and after all of that one of the kids decides they're atheist/agnostic or converts to another religion. Will Tayshia love and respect that child any less? Ivan's approach to expose children to different belief systems and let them decide for themselves is much more respectful and inclusive.

@chocolatine She had said her faith was very important to her she did not elaborate he only watched part of Rachel's season and Peter's so knew nothing abt her whole religious arc or other leads.  Not everyone watches the show or follows the contestants.  He even said that.If he had been in relationships before where it was not an issue why would he think it was a deal breaker?  She was on the show claiming she was open to anything and difference.  She said that in his one on on and didn't add a religion disclaimer.She was the one who needed to ask the question if it was important to heart especially before hometowns. Just because it's a deal breaker too hard doesn't mean he would know that if he had experienced situations in the past where it wasn't.  I really believe she had him convinced that things were so good between him that he honestly thought it was something that they could work through and he said they talked about that that he proposed having an interfaith relationship and she didn't rule it out.

 And yes she  had said that she was going to have the rose ceremony as a formality so she was prepared to go through with taking him home until Ben showed up and then all of a sudden it became a big issue when she had another choice. Again Ivan is fine abt what happened and they are both better off.  If wanted air time she was willing to fake a final two for the camera and thinks still would have with Ben until that talk with her father. So they would both be par for the course 

Edited December 24, 2020 by catrice2

[Stats Queen]

6 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I knew from her time on Colton’s season. That said, I do think the show might have been concerned about two years of religion talk in a row (Luke and Hannah and Madi and Peter) A good part of the audience is not Christian and doesn’t want to hear the lead or contestants talking about their views. And this year we had a contestant, Ivan, that didn’t want to talk about his views. Even if we saw the scenes of tayshia, we still would not have known Ivan’s because he purposefully didn’t talk about it on camera. So there’s no winning decision.

I think you are probably right, but it to me, it seems they overcorrected the problem ...

[dirtypop90]

The more I think about it the more I think Ivan just wanted to stay longer. I don’t know that I buy that he thought it wasn’t a big deal. Why would you not bring that up to the Christian bachelorette the second you think you might actually like each other to see if it’s a dealbreaker? Oh, I can think of a reason...he knew she would send him home

I’m sorry I’m jaded from this franchise. I can’t hold Brendan and Ben to the fire for just wanting more tv time and not Ivan because he looks...young and sweet. Most who come on this show have zero interest in marriage (in recent seasons) He very well could’ve kept it to himself because he didn’t want to get sent home before he could get his followers and shot at bachelor. And tbh I never bought he was falling in love with tayshia, not even when he finally said it before the fantasy date. Every year the audience buys into someone as genuine that was not.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

If he had been in relationships before where it was not an issue why would he think it was a deal breaker? 

He's a smart guy so I'd have to think he was aware it was a possibility.  Dating sites include that as a category. 

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

She was the one who needed to ask the question if it was important to heart especially before hometowns.

She did ask the question when she felt she needed the answer.  And we've since found out that he had his own reasons for not elaborating until the cameras were gone. 

There had to be some confusion on all of their parts.  Ivan was cast for Clare.  Clare might not have had a religion requirement.

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

And tbh I never bought he was falling in love with tayshia, not even when he finally said it before the fantasy date. Every year the audience buys into someone as genuine that was not.

Nope.  I think he and Tayshia felt the same way about each other.  They liked one another but there wasn't a love connection.  He was willing to go far so he was willing to claim he had stronger feelings for Tayshia than he actually had.  And she knew she had to bring someone to the F2 so it might as well be someone she liked, didn't love and probably suspected someone who didn't love her either.

I also think it's why she brought back Ben.  She knew the show was likely trying to set up a future for Ben in the Bachelor universe which is why they let him come back.  She knew that there is no way he'd be there if it hadn't been okayed. 

It's funny because the last people I felt who actually cared whether or not they were let go were Blake and Riley. Brendan and Ivan seemed rather sanguine about it.  And Ben?  Well I don't know what's with him.

The fact that she let all of them go before the Final Rose Ceremony also explains why none of them were quite sure what happened at the end.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Irlandesa

[Just Carol]

It was crystal clear that Ivan was not "the one" because he did not say "I love you" to Tayshia.  In contrast to Zac, at the end, the closest Ivan said was, "I'm falling in love with you."  Thus, there was no reason for Tayshia to be specific, on camera, that the reason for the break-up was religion- or anything else, for that matter.  Break-ups on the show are usually for vague reasons and I was stunned to hear a concrete reason.

I have liked the editing this season, but in this case, the editors did not think this through.  Tayshia referenced a conversation that took place in the FS, one that production and viewers were not privy to.  

Religion can definitely be an issue, and I applaud Tayshia for recognizing her needs.  I am glad that she and Zac are on the same page.  

(I am a (Jewish) agnostic, but believe in ghosts.  How is that possible?)