S16.E09: Week 9

[peachmangosteen]

I was legitimately shocked by Bennett returning. He came off truly scary in those scenes. At first he was fun, then he was a humorless dick, and now he seems like he might try to kill Tayshia. He really went for a lot of different characters!

Ben should not be there. He needs serious help. I wish Tayshia would let him go now because keeping him until the end and then not picking him would probably not be good for him. And I don't really see her picking him.

[tennisgurl]

JoJo as temporary host has actually made me appreciate Chris Harrison more. She just lacks that perfect combination of charm and smug with a semi self aware smirk that he really brings to the table. She doesn't even know her lines! She skipped half of her speech to the men who didn't get a rose, how do you mess that up? We say the same thing every week!

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

52 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

According to my watching several versions of this show, I feel that I am qualified to state that the contestants who claim they have high emotional intelligence actually don't...

It's the equivalent of anyone who feels the need to say "I'm actually a nice guy" (or lady, or whatever). If you feel the need to say it, you probably aren't.

[Captain Asshat]

12 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Yikes.   He is scarey.   Is this a Bachelorette / American Psycho crossover episode?

Has he whipped out his business card yet to show off the color and font?

[plotpointer]

It's so interesting how one episode can trigger such vastly different responses.  I've been trying to figure out why I'm thoroughly enjoying this season and others clearly are not.   For me, the Bachelorette is pure fantasy.  I leave all thinking at the door.   I just want to be entertained.  This show is so different from my real life, my high-pressure job and the additional strain of 2020.  And that's exactly how I like it -- pure escapism.  I don't tune in to learn about global issues or proper grammar construction.  I just sit back and let the show take me on this journey -- no spoilers for me!  If there's a season with a lead I absolutely hate, if most of the contestants don't interest me or the interesting ones aren't given any airtime, I simply tune out that season.  

What makes this season especially interesting for me is I really like this Bachelorette, so the idea of all these guys vying for her love makes sense.  I can buy into the fantasy.  Also, the Clare debacle during the first part of the season was actually a godsend because we got the opportunity to really get to know most of these contestants -- not just two or three.   It also helps that many of these guys are more mature than the usual batch of bachelors.   

Edited December 9, 2020 by plotpointer

[catrice2]

57 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

What now?   She did argue back, but it wasn't in defense of  Noah,  it was in defense of herself. 

She said Bennett was questioning her integrity by telling Noah he had zero chance of winning.  Bennett didn't say a word about producer driven reasons, did he?  Where does the "gaslighting" come in?  When did he try to convince Tayshia she was crazy?

Look, I don't like Bennett.   I think he's a jerk and not very smart, Harvard or no Harvard, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Tayshia acts like a scolding schoolmarm when she's angry.

I was hoping she would light into Bennett for being condescending and insulting to Noah, but if she did ,I didn't hear that.   (I might have missed something.)

I don't doubt she's a "nice person," but so far she's seemed very self-involved to me.  She loves it when men "open up" to her, but then after they've bared their soul, she always seems more tickled that they've told her than caring about what they've actually said.

I understand what you are saying. I am not in the Bachelor world, but a dive on the internet revealed this is not her first time on the show. I feel like she is very aware of the camera and how she will appear. Although I would not put it past them to have said exactly what, at a minimum I think they prepared her that some of the men might reveal something emotionally heavy. With the BLM conversation, she really did not add anything to it, because I think she was afraid of any backlash on how her comments would be received.  Other than she has been cheated on before, I know NOTHING about her after 2 1/2 episodes.   

I was done when I realized she was 30? with free will and acted as if she could not find a mixed raced person or POC to talk to about things!   I am sure she has traveled or had the means to travel. If that was something that she had an interest in, she could have taken care of it. 

Now that I have been informed about Tayshia, I am wondering if Riley and Ivan need to be asking HER if she has ever dated a POC and how she feels about that?  She may be a perfectly nice person, but I am thinking she needs some time to figure out who she is without a man.  Sounds as if every since her divorce she has been in this world trying to make it work so that she can be a part of one of these Bachelor media couples.  I feel like Ivan is being chosen for optics, and just because he is someone she feels she can learn about certain things from, but she has no real interest in him. 

It is as if she feels like her regular type hasn't worked out so well and has convince herself that an older man (with LIFE experience) is where she needs to go.  I don't see chemistry with any of the men that is not forced.  She is trying to make it work because she has this "opportunity" so she is convincing herself that it is something it is not.  I wonder if it would have been different if she had men that here chosen for her.  It is as if she wants them to open up, but all they need to know about her is that she is an influencer who loves her family and has been married and cheated on before....the end.  

[Alexander Pope]

14 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I hope to see Demar and Spencer on BIP.

Same.  Demar has it going on. They were setting Spencer up to be a villain when he first showed up, but now they're ignoring him completely.  I take that as an indicator that he's probably relatively drama-free.  And he is easy on the eyes.

[Alexander Pope]

14 hours ago, EllenB said:

Whoa, she just used the L word!

I believe she also said: "I really do LOVE Ben" at the end of their weird date.  Was I the only one who heard that?

[Alexander Pope]

13 hours ago, EllenB said:

He insinuated that he had a not-so Bennett-y upbringing, so he may have been ready to  unload a dirt poor hillbilly background.  Maybe his real name is Bubba Joe Hatfield McCoy.

Hey, did we just see our first Mesnick of the season?

If that's Bennett's backstory, it would explain the teeth!

[dirtypop90]

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

What now?   She did argue back, but it wasn't in defense of  Noah,  it was in defense of herself. 

She said Bennett was questioning her integrity by telling Noah he had zero chance of winning.  Bennett didn't say a word about producer driven reasons, did he?  Where does the "gaslighting" come in?  When did he try to convince Tayshia she was crazy?

Look, I don't like Bennett.   I think he's a jerk and not very smart, Harvard or no Harvard, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Tayshia acts like a scolding schoolmarm when she's angry.

I was hoping she would light into Bennett for being condescending and insulting to Noah, but if she did ,I didn't hear that.   (I might have missed something.)

I don't doubt she's a "nice person," but so far she's seemed very self-involved to me.  She loves it when men "open up" to her, but then after they've bared their soul, she always seems more tickled that they've told her than caring about what they've actually said.

I didn’t see tayshia argue with Bennett or anyone all season. She asked his side, told him her thoughts and he rambled and she looked at him like he was wasting her time because he was. 

Bennet couldn’t say “production is making you give Noah a rose” and Tayshia couldn’t say “you’re accusing me of being a producer pet”. Saying “you don’t really like Noah” was enough to insinuate she was keeping him around for drama. They’re not allowed to talk about production or use the word producer. “Questioning my integrity” is short and to the point.

I’ve not seen Tayshia “tickled” at any trauma. I’ve seen her be an active listener and encourage men and validate men who have been through trauma. Kind people tend to do that.

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90
typo

[dirtypop90]

As far as tayshia and the few black men she’s met on this season, I’m not so sure why people are convinced these black men even prefer black women. They signed up for Clare and Riley at least had far more chemistry with her than tayshia. Ivan and Riley probably aren’t asking tayshia about her preferences because they have the same preferences. Lol I’d be willing to bet they will all pop up with blondes after Tayshia’s season. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90

[catrice2]

On 12/9/2020 at 10:41 AM, dirtypop90 said:

As far as tayshia and the few black men she’s met on this season, I’m not so sure why people are convinced these black men even prefer black women. They signed up for Clare and Riley at least had far more chemistry with her than tayshia. Ivan and Riley probably aren’t asking tayshia about her preferences because they have the same preferences. Lol I’d be willing to bet they will all pop up with blondes after Tayshia’s season. 

That is a point and maybe true but it has nothing to do with them knowing if SHE likes a person of color and what that means for taking them home to your family.  Regardless of who they prefer, they are men of color so that would be information they would need to know to tell if they may be wasting their time or at the minimum be a new experience for her where she may have some pre conceived notions.   I married into an interracial relationship and dated a variety of men and that is just something that you ask....period...and yes, I asked Black men if they liked Black women...I want to know the dating history....tall, short, funny, smart, serious?  Professional, stay at home,  close to family distant from family... religion .and these days where they land on the political spectrum and where their family lies on that as well especially if marriage is on the table. 

Besides, I don't think I ever specified that she ask only the non minority men about dating a POC.  If I did that was a mistake. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by catrice2

[Alexander Pope]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I heard "whirled-wind," which is still wrong but not as bad as last week's "connotates." (I know there's technically no grammatical relativism - an expression is either correct or it isn't - but I find some errors more jarring than others.)

I'm genuinely worried for Ben. He said that he had planned to have a long-term career in the military, but that it didn't work out "for a number of reasons." I wonder if there were other factors in addition to the the back injury that contributed to his suicide attempts, like untreated PTSD or a pre-existing mental health condition (other than the bulimia) that were exacerbated during his service. It looks like his physical injuries have healed, but not the mental ones.

To end this post on a lighter note, what was up with Tayshia's group date outfits? Did the stylist take a personal day? The first outfit, white tank top with bra showing and short, glittery fit-and-flare skirt looked like something Paris Hilton would have worn circa 2003. The second one, a bridal-looking high-low romper-dress combo with a too-small top that was so not equipped to support Tayshia's boobs? I have no words for that level of hideousness. Bennett said she looked good, so he's a shameless liar.

Totally agree re the heinous fashion last night.  Tayshia has been uneven but mostly fine--last night was the nadir.  As for Bennett lying that Tayshia looked good, from his perspective, the unsupported boobs may have made that the truth.

[saber5055]

4 hours ago, nutty1 said:

This show is starting to tank. I’ll be surprised if it lasts more than 1 or 2 seasons more. 

LOL! We've said that every season for years now.

I've actually seen nothing to prove to me Tayshia is "a nice person." What does that even mean? That she doesn't kick puppies or hit little kids? Everyone can be "a nice person" just like everyone can be a real snot, all in the same person. Tayshia IMO is pretty shallow, she doesn't talk about anything deeper than "Oh, you like me." All these men have to reveal their deepest darkest, and who knows how that's going to affect them IRL when they actually have to go to a real job, red flags flying. Anyone going to hire the suicide guy? Not sure about that. But Tayshia? No one knows one single thing about her other than she grew up in a primarily white area and she felt different. End of her story. Although perhaps she is the only one who realizes that "telling all" isn't a good thing to do on national tv. She's just following the script and being a good girl for Fleiss.

[tinkerbell]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I was legitimately shocked by Bennett returning. He came off truly scary in those scenes. At first he was fun, then he was a humorless dick, and now he seems like he might try to kill Tayshia. He really went for a lot of different characters!

Ben should not be there. He needs serious help. I wish Tayshia would let him go now because keeping him until the end and then not picking him would probably not be good for him. And I don't really see her picking him.

Tayshia seems to be willing to let Bennett back on because HE  is expressing feelings for her.   She hasn't realized that HIS feelings are not the deciding factor.  She let him go because SHE wasn't feeling it.  I blame the producers, who, obviously allowed/encouraged  him to come back - was he lurking in her room?  why would that be allowed?  I think that he was coached to be the "emotional intelligence guy" because he rattled off a list, but he lacks the understanding of what it actually means.  Truly emotionally intelligent people respect that when someone tells them they're not interested in pursuing a relationship with you, you don't declare your love and refuse to leave.  

As for Ben - formerly morbidly obese, bulimic, suicidal -  Yeah, if she doesn't marry him, what is next for Ben?  how does he cope with having all his past problems out there in the universe for everyone to know about?  He certainly needed someone to remind him that he wasn't just revealing his past to Tayshia, but to a primetime ABC audience and the internet.  

[saber5055]

8 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

As for Bennett lying that Tayshia looked good, from his perspective, the unsupported boobs may have made that the truth

LOL. Yes, Bennett is very tall, so looking down ... Heck, I don't even have to look down to see those girls.

1 minute ago, tinkerbell said:

Tayshia seems to be willing to let Bennett back on because HE  is expressing feelings for her.   

Tayshia seems to be willing to let Bennett back on because TPTB told her to and she's following the script.

[tinkerbell]

58 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

As far as tayshia and the few black men she’s met on this season, I’m not so sure why people are convinced these black men even prefer black women. They signed up for Clare and Riley at least had far more chemistry with her than tayshia. Ivan and Riley probably aren’t asking tayshia about her preferences because they have the same preferences. Lol I’d be willing to bet they will all pop up with blondes after Tayshia’s season. 

But did they sign up for Clare?   The show advertises for people to sign up to be on, and, while they will say that they were hoping it was a certain person, and even at times that they signed up because of a certain person, most of these guys were on the list to be on the show without having an idea of who the bachelorette was going to be.   There's always one person who will say "when I heard it was you I signed up to be on the show," to give the impression that they announce the lead first, and then wait to see who calls.  

[catrice2]

2 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

But did they sign up for Clare?   The show advertises for people to sign up to be on, and, while they will say that they were hoping it was a certain person, and even at times that they signed up because of a certain person, most of these guys were on the list to be on the show without having an idea of who the bachelorette was going to be.   There's always one person who will say "when I heard it was you I signed up to be on the show," to give the impression that they announce the lead first, and then wait to see who calls.  

Even if they did, I don't think they care.  I think for some it is the opportunity to be on TV or build their brand and social media presence...and if I happen to like the girl, then great.  In the middle of COVID where you can't travel, some are out of work or work is slow, etc. I think a lot of people  would have come on no matter what. 

[catrice2]

16 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

LOL! We've said that every season for years now.

I've actually seen nothing to prove to me Tayshia is "a nice person." What does that even mean? That she doesn't kick puppies or hit little kids? Everyone can be "a nice person" just like everyone can be a real snot, all in the same person. Tayshia IMO is pretty shallow, she doesn't talk about anything deeper than "Oh, you like me." All these men have to reveal their deepest darkest, and who knows how that's going to affect them IRL when they actually have to go to a real job, red flags flying. Anyone going to hire the suicide guy? Not sure about that. But Tayshia? No one knows one single thing about her other than she grew up in a primarily white area and she felt different. End of her story. Although perhaps she is the only one who realizes that "telling all" isn't a good thing to do on national tv. She's just following the script and being a good girl for Fleiss.

Don't watch all the time, but from what I've seen and reading these boards I agree with this 100%.  I am always curious why viewers think they know people from edited footage from a show that has producers....the one thing I would say is that guys are savvy enough to know that while they may get backlash for some things, there will be way more people excited by the fact that they were on national television and giving them attention, opportunities and offers of "companionship."  I'll bet Ben is getting a lot of love, but he knew it was a calculated risk. 

[tinkerbell]

4 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Even if they did, I don't think they care.  I think for some it is the opportunity to be on TV or build their brand and social media presence...and if I happen to like the girl, then great.  In the middle of COVID where you can't travel, some are out of work or work is slow, etc. I think a lot of people  would have come on no matter what. 

Right. I was responding to the idea that these guys signed up out of interest in Clare. These guys are programmed to think of whoever the lead is, is the most beautiful,  wonderful woman in the world and they are ready to marry her. Even when the lead is switched halfway through.

[dirtypop90]

3 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

But did they sign up for Clare?   The show advertises for people to sign up to be on, and, while they will say that they were hoping it was a certain person, and even at times that they signed up because of a certain person, most of these guys were on the list to be on the show without having an idea of who the bachelorette was going to be.   There's always one person who will say "when I heard it was you I signed up to be on the show," to give the impression that they announce the lead first, and then wait to see who calls.  

These guys had a lot of notice Clare would be the bachelorette. Some even reached out for her. Even if they didn’t, they signed up for another white women lol none of them thought they were getting a black bachelorette. Same for Rachel’s season. They were betting on getting a white bachelorette because in the history of this franchise, there had only been one non white bachelorette. If they wanted to date a black woman, they would’ve signed up for a different show. All JMO

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90
typo

[catrice2]

11 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

For someone who brags about his high emotional intelligence, Bennett was pretty damn oblivious to Tayshia's icy glare when he was mansplaining EQ to her. Dude does not remotely know how to read a room.

As others have said, the "lie detector" portion was insulting, even by the low standards of reality TV polygraph segments. Without a set of proper control questions (and "What is your name?" does not qualify), the test itself is useless: the whole point is to make you lie (or at least doubt your own truthfulness) during the control questions, so they can then compare the stress response to the real questions. An example of a real control question in this situation would be "Have you ever mentally pictured someone else, even for a moment, when you've had sex with a girlfriend?" Most guys have, but will answer No, creating the stress reaction. THEN, and only then, do they ask the real question of "Have you ever physically cheated on a girlfriend?" The man who hasn't will truthfully and calmly answer No, because he knows he hasn't. Since the stress reaction from the control question was higher than the stress reaction from the real question, the examiner will indicate it's a truthful answer. It's also a ridiculously easy system to break once you know about the control questions: you simply give yourself a high stress reaction (by flexing your arm, biting your tongue, hiding a tack in your shoe and stepping on it, or whatever else) during the control questions, and you'll pass every time. This is why polygraph tests haven't been allowed in courts for decades. They're easy to beat and simply not reliable. Their only value in this day and age lies in the intimidation factor of being hooked up to a machine and grilled about one's past.

(Meanwhile, Mrs. RaiderDuck also pointed out something more basic about the whole date: If you can't trust someone to be honest, why in the blue hell are you even pursuing a relationship with them?)

This! And it is why I generally don't enjoy reality tv. All the manufactured drama.  Clearly Bennett would have support of the crew to even get back on set, the random props that show up  (or people like on Rachel's season with Demarcus or whoever he was with the girlfriend) , the unnatural phrases, "here for the right reasons,"  "on my journey," showing up for me," and tons I am sure I don't know.  "Real" people don't speak like that.  The dramatic crying scenes.....and now a fake lie detector test to go along with cheesy dates.   

 

You don't get a feel of any of the people because they edited and "direct" scenes so much you have no idea what is real and what is not.  Also, with social media I would imagine more people come on now for the "wrong reasons" than for the right and it is just a game. 

By the time you get to the final 3 or 4 you already know the one or two that have a chance and the rest is for show and to follow the process, yet families are involved. 

[saber5055]

Does anyone remember who the guys were that were brought on after Clare left? Seems like there were four or five, and Noah was one of them. I didn't know Clare's guys well enough to tell them apart from the Tayshia new guys.

[dirtypop90]

59 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

That is a point and maybe true but it has nothing to do when them knowing if SHE likes a person of color and what that means for taking them home to your family.  Regardless of who they prefer, they are men of color so that would be information they would need to know to tell if they may be wasting their time or at the minimum be a new experience for her where she may have some pre conceived notions.   I married into an interracial relationship and dated a variety of men and that is just something that you ask....period...and yes, I asked Black men if they liked Black women...I want to know the dating history....tall, short, funny, smart, serious?  Professional, stay at home,  close to family distant from family... religion .and these days where they land on the political spectrum and where their family lies on that as well especially if marriage is on the table. 

Besides, I don't think I ever specified that she ask only the non minority men about dating a POC.  If I did that was a mistake. 

My only problem is they don’t ask white bachelorettes this. Or at least we haven’t seen any of the MOC ask Clare if she had ever dated black men before or bring up BLM? I’ve never seen a MOC care if the white bachelorette liked MOC so why question tayshia? Lord knows Hannah B had no interest in Mike but he didn’t walk away. All the men Clare pursued in this franchise prior to dale were white. So I don’t understand why a POC would put a WOC through that type of question when they didn’t put their white bachelorette who they signed up for through it. Most MOC come on this show and waste their time with white bachelorettes. Clare is the first bachelorette to choose a non white man.

 All JMO

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

19 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Does anyone remember who the guys were that were brought on after Clare left? Seems like there were four or five, and Noah was one of them. I didn't know Clare's guys well enough to tell them apart from the Tayshia new guys.

Spencer and Noah and maybe two more that left quickly? There weren’t that many. But they too were “clare’s men.” They didn’t make night one’s final roster but were in Clare’s batch. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90

[thehepburn]

26 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

These guys had a lot of notice Clare would be the bachelorette. Some even reached out for her. Ever If they didn’t, they signed up for another white women lol none of them thought they were getting a black bachelorette. Same for Rachel’s season. They were betting on getting a white bachelorette because in the history of this franchise, there had only been one non white bachelorette. If they wanted to date a black woman, they would’ve signed up for a different show. All JMO

 

Nope. Not true. The show announced that Rachel was the Ette very early since her being the first black Ette was a big deal. Of course, plenty of men signed on to her season intending to build their brand so the color of the Ette was immaterial to them. Like Peter K, the runner-up. 

[catrice2]

30 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

My only problem is they don’t ask white bachelorettes this. Or at least we haven’t seen any of the MOC ask Clare if she had ever dated black men before or bring up BLM? I’ve never seen a MOC care if the white bachelorette liked MOC so why question tayshia? Lord knows Hannah B had no interest in Mike but he didn’t walk away. All the men Clare pursued in this franchise prior to dale were white. So I don’t understand why a POC would put a WOC through that type of question when they didn’t put their white bachelorette who they signed up for through it. Most MOC come on this show and waste their time with white bachelorettes. Clare is the first bachelorette to choose a non white man.

 All JMO

I am only talking about this season because this is a thread about this season. I can't comment on other seasons or leads because I don't watch this show.  If this is directed at me, I think it is a conversation that should be held by all, when appropriate.   Had I been watching when Claire was on  I would have said the same thing.  Besides I have been told she may be part Hispanic, Claire not Tayshia, so I would think that would have been of interest to her as well. In fact, I asked my dates, no matter what color, if they had a diverse group of friends, and valued diversity  because that is something that was relevant and important to me.   I need to know how someone feels about all people before I can make a commitment to them.  I feel like production more than anyone else should not put people in a situation where they have no chance, so the leads as well as the contestants need to be honest when answering this question during screening, but if we are talking going to hometowns , meeting the family and  getting engaged, not only does it need to be a conversation, but it needs to be a conversation that is aired...

By the way I am only assuming that during screening they ask them if they would be open to being in an interracial or interfaith relationship...they may not.  I am also assuming that they do psychological screening and a background check, but I've been informed that a sex offender was on a previous season...so maybe I am asking too much.. 

I don't know how the BLM conversation happened because I only saw clips, but hopefully it was not in a way where it felt that someone felt that they had to bring it up.  I also don't think only a MOC could have broached that topic to her or anybody else.  It, along with COVID, was a significant thing that happened this year and could have affected many lives in many ways, even if it was only to reflect on your own actions. I actually think it would  have been more impactful if someone other than a POC had spoken with Tayshia about it.

In general I would have appreciated a conversation with anyone about how the past several months have affected their lives because that is real, and it has caused people to make changes, no matter if it was work related or personal. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by catrice2

[call me ishmael]

I shudder at the thought that I might be saying something in defense of Bennett,.  But it is possible that his comments about Noah having no chance wasn't either about production or an insult to Tayshia but an observation based on the reality that unless you are Claire you have to keep a certain number of bachelors each week and it's obvious that Noah isn't her first choice, or second choice, or third choice.  Of course despite his high emotional intelligence Bennett doesn't understand that he is not her first choice, or second choice, or third choice either.  But that is a different therapy session.

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, tinkerbell said:

Right. I was responding to the idea that these guys signed up out of interest in Clare. These guys are programmed to think of whoever the lead is, is the most beautiful,  wonderful woman in the world and they are ready to marry her. Even when the lead is switched halfway through.

Yes, another reason I don't really watch the show. All of a sudden someone you wouldn't look twice at in your real life becomes EVERYTHING. It is annoying and insulting. I respect the guys more who don't even try and just wait to go home than the ones that pretend.  

[Mrs.Monkey]

I'm a relatively new Bachelorette viewer, and I know we don't see all of the conversations, but why are the men supposed to bare their souls and share their secrets, while Tayshia never shares anything about herself? Assuming they're telling the truth, these men aren't just sharing their darkest secrets with her, they're sharing with the whole world, on camera. And she doesn't reveal anything. I hope that at some point, before sharing their trauma, they have conversations about where they grew up, where they went to school, their favorite color, if they have a pet... normal conversations.

[Recyclorette]

3 hours ago, plotpointer said:

It's so interesting how one episode can trigger such vastly different responses.  I've been trying to figure out why I'm thoroughly enjoying this season and others clearly are not.   For me, the Bachelorette is pure fantasy.  I leave all thinking at the door.   I just want to be entertained.  This show is so different from my real life, my high-pressure job and the additional strain of 2020.  And that's exactly how I like it -- pure escapism.  I don't tune in to learn about global issues or proper grammar construction.  I just sit back and let the show take me on this journey -- no spoilers for me!  If there's a season with a lead I absolutely hate, if most of the contestants don't interest me or the interesting ones aren't given any airtime, I simply tune out that season.  

What makes this season especially interesting for me is I really like this Bachelorette, so the idea of all these guys vying for her love makes sense.  I can buy into the fantasy.  Also, the Clare debacle during the first part of the season was actually a godsend because we got the opportunity to really get to know most of these contestants -- not just two or three.   It also helps that many of these guys are more mature than the usual batch of bachelors.   

I couldn't agree more!  The last two episodes have been the only ones in the last couple of years where I haven't been bored to tears!  If it weren't for Covid, I probably would have totally given up on this franchise by now.  I think Tayshia's personality is lovely and a breath of fresh air!  And though there's been some drama, it has not been way over the top like in recent years.  For the most part, this group of guys has also been pleasant to watch.

[JenLily]

1 hour ago, tinkerbell said:

I blame the producers, who, obviously allowed/encouraged [Bennett] to come back - was he lurking in her room?  why would that be allowed?

It really bothers me that production continues to promote this notion that if you just try hard enough, the woman will change her mind. If she says she's not interested, whether she's the Bachelorette or one of the contestants on the Bachelor, then accept it. Don't try and pretend that it's romantic for him to completely disregard her feelings and shove his way back into her life. I would think that they would have learned their lesson after one of their Bachelors was served with a restraining order.

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, thehepburn said:

 

Nope. Not true. The show announced that Rachel was the Ette very early since her being the first black Ette was a big deal. Of course, plenty of men signed on to her season intending to build their brand so the color of the Ette was immaterial to them. Like Peter K, the runner-up. 

I was more so referring to Tayshia’s season but Rachel has claimed many of the black men on her season did not date black women. Some were recruited like Demario. Peter K was rumored to have signed up for a previous season, not rachel’s. So yes the men knew it was Rachel before the show started but didn’t sign up for her. Bryan was an exception who was casted after Rachel was named lead. They keep men and women in mind, like cassie signed up before coltons season but they thought she was a better fit for Colton than Arie. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by dirtypop90

[Kiss my mutt]

I would be curious to know if Tayshia has dated MOC, other than this show, (if you can call this dating) because I’ve only seen her husband and the her ill-fated relationship with self-impressed JPJ. 
 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

58 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

They keep men and women in mind, like cassie signed up before coltons season but they thought she was a better fit for Colton than Arie. 

Supposedly, that's why Nick Viall's season ended up such a bust: they picked a cast for 29-year-old Luke Pell, then switched to 36-year-old Nick Viall at the last minute (and judging by Pell's conduct on Bachelor Winter Games, they dodged a bullet: it takes a lot to openly disgust the normally unflappable Chris Harrison) but didn't recast. So Nick ended up with half the cast almost young enough to be his daughters.

[dirtypop90]

19 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I would be curious to know if Tayshia has dated MOC, other than this show, (if you can call this dating) because I’ve only seen her husband and the her ill-fated relationship with self-impressed JPJ. 
 

Sounded to me like she hasn’t dated much. I think she said she married her first boyfriend.

6 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Supposedly, that's why Nick Viall's season ended up such a bust: they picked a cast for 29-year-old Luke Pell, then switched to 36-year-old Nick Viall at the last minute (and judging by Pell's conduct on Bachelor Winter Games, they dodged a bullet: it takes a lot to openly disgust the normally unflappable Chris Harrison) but didn't recast. So Nick ended up with half the cast almost young enough to be his daughters.

Totally makes sense. Same for Arie’s season though he did find love. Weird they didn’t think Cassie was a fit for Arie but still allowed Bekah on.
 

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

I shudder at the thought that I might be saying something in defense of Bennett,.  But it is possible that his comments about Noah having no chance wasn't either about production or an insult to Tayshia but an observation based on the reality that unless you are Claire you have to keep a certain number of bachelors each week and it's obvious that Noah isn't her first choice, or second choice, or third choice.  Of course despite his high emotional intelligence Bennett doesn't understand that he is not her first choice, or second choice, or third choice either.  But that is a different therapy session.

I think the problem isn't with him thinking Noah has no chance.  It's kind of rude for him to state but I'm sure they're all gaming out who she's vibing with the most.

What makes him a condescending jerk is that he acts like his opinion is authoritative based on some pop psychology book he read.  IMO, very few things come off as condescending as someone trying to assert an opinion as based on some kind of objectivity when the topic, like dating, is inherently subjective. 

[thehepburn]

53 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I would be curious to know if Tayshia has dated MOC, other than this show, (if you can call this dating) because I’ve only seen her husband and the her ill-fated relationship with self-impressed JPJ. 
 

 

No, she has never been seen with a MOC. She was dating before this TB gig and he was white too. 

On BIP, she was most attracted to the white dude who was engaged to 'emotionally intelligent' Taylor.

 

[catrice2]

I just think that it is a mistake to assume that Ben is a great catch just because he has been through something and spoke about it on national television.  Zac either for that reason.  Although  it is admirable, it says nothing about how he is within a relationship.  He mentioned a lot of concerns within his story that had nothing to do with eating disorder or suicide attempts that were some serious red flags.  Now I see calls for him to be the Bachelor or talk about what a great person he is.  We don't know that any more than we know that about any of the other men.  A lot o women are saying it made him more attractive to them!  It is at the point now people are rating trauma and trying to decide whose story is most tragic and inspiring.  Weird.

Of the men that I've seen the only ones that come close to attractive are Spenser? and maybe Ivan.  This does not include physical attributes because I give that to Kenny?  Hands down. But the few episodes I've seen in the Bachelor franchise and the pictures, videos new stories, there have only been an handful of men that were attractive to me....they do a much better job finding attractive women. I looked up Tyler Cameron because I heard him mentioned so much and I was SOOOO disappointed. 

[Arkay]

5 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

 

As for Ben - formerly morbidly obese, bulimic, suicidal -  Yeah, if she doesn't marry him, what is next for Ben?  how does he cope with having all his past problems out there in the universe for everyone to know about?  He certainly needed someone to remind him that he wasn't just revealing his past to Tayshia, but to a primetime ABC audience and the internet.  

I share this concern. We've always talked about a "Bachelor Bubble," in which the Bachelor/ette overwhelmingly becomes the focal point and the trophy as the outside world recedes, but now they're in a Coronavirus Bubble Bachelor Bubble. There are really very few distractions now and (hopefully) they are pretty much sealed into their environment. Therefore I would imagine that the emphasis on falling in love and capturing the prize is even more intense than usual, and perhaps that plays into why anyone would share this type of personal trauma with someone they barely know, much less having it transmitted to a national audience. 

It's everything for Ben that his sister saved him from suicide, twice. God bless her. Yet he says she doesn't even know...so she's finding this out when the show is airing? Clearly if she didn't even know, then she didn't do something like actively interrupt a self-destructive act. Maybe she said the right thing at the right time that lifted his spirits and gave him hope, maybe he just felt deep love from her, but for his sister I would think this would be an awful way to find this out. 

I appreciate that Tayshia verbally expressed support to Ben. That's important. If they don't end up married, he's exposed his inner pain, such recent pain, for what will be more pain, and in public. That seems a heavy price. Hopefully this experience strengthens him, no matter the outcome.

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

I believe she also said: "I really do LOVE Ben" at the end of their weird date.  Was I the only one who heard that?

That's what I heard as well. She said it in a confessional. And then she told Zac to his face that she was falling in love with him as well, right? 

5 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Does anyone remember who the guys were that were brought on after Clare left? Seems like there were four or five, and Noah was one of them. 

Spencer and Noah are the only 2 out of the 4 that are left.

[thehepburn]

20 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

That's what I heard as well. She said it in a confessional. And then she told Zac to his face that she was falling in love with him as well, right? 

 

 

Yes, when the L-word is said this early by the lead, they cannot say it to just one person or the F1 will just be given away.

[peachmangosteen]

I feel like they used to never let them say the l-word but maybe I'm misremembering. Showing them saying it about/to multiple people just makes them look like wishy washy assholes lol.

[thehepburn]

10 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like they used to never let them say the l-word but maybe I'm misremembering. Showing them saying it about/to multiple people just makes them look like wishy washy assholes lol.

 

I believe BenH started that trend and yes, he did look like a wishywashy asshole.

[Back Atcha]

1 hour ago, Arkay said:

I appreciate that Tayshia verbally expressed support to Ben. That's important. If they don't end up married, he's exposed his inner pain, such recent pain, for what will be more pain, and in public. That seems a heavy price. Hopefully this experience strengthens him, no matter the outcome.

Even if they DO end up married, I agree this was a heavy price...that should NEVER have been paid on network television.  This is obviously a vulnerable guy  (not vun-erable) who doesn't belong on this show.  Production is masterful at manipulating the weaknesses...and they push Tayshia to do the same for "good TV".  Sorry I ever watched.  How did he get past their "professional" psychologist(s)?  

[Arkay]

22 minutes ago, Back Atcha said:

Even if they DO end up married, I agree this was a heavy price...that should NEVER have been paid on network television.  This is obviously a vulnerable guy  (not vun-erable) who doesn't belong on this show.  Production is masterful at manipulating the weaknesses...and they push Tayshia to do the same for "good TV".  Sorry I ever watched.  How did he get past their "professional" psychologist(s)?  

I'm sure many of us remember Gia Allemand, who was on Jake's season and some other Bachelor iterations, and eventually committed suicide at age 29. It's entirely possible that her problems didn't manifest until after her Bachelor days, but it's also possible that she had mental health issues all along that the psychologists didn't recognize.

Ben may have been very good at presenting the strong front that initially attracted Tayshia to his "perfection," and was adept at giving the right answers on the questionnaires they have to fill out. However, as you say, if they were actually "professional" then they should have caught the severe issues that Ben has already sruggled with (and Gia had perhaps not). In his case he had ALREADY left a career that he thought was his dream, as well as fought a very long battle with eating disorders, prior to this show. Not saying he shouldn't have been chosen for the show, but that being chosen, the psychologists  should not have allowed him to be in a situation where he was pressured to reveal something so deep. He'd told Tayshia he wasn't comfortable talking about some things, but of course there was the inevitable "if you care about her, you'll open up."

 

[Arkay]

55 minutes ago, thehepburn said:

 

I believe BenH started that trend and yes, he did look like a wishywashy asshole.

I feel like maybe it was Desiree that first said "I love you" to Brooks. Maybe it was Ben, but I think I recall being so surprised when Desiree did that, it was supposedly so verboten to declare love for a contestant until the proposal. 

[thehepburn]

18 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I'm sure many of us remember Gia Allemand, who was on Jake's season and some other Bachelor iterations, and eventually committed suicide at age 29. It's entirely possible that her problems didn't manifest until after her Bachelor days, but it's also possible that she had mental health issues all along that the psychologists didn't recognize.

 

 

 

Yes, I've been thinking about Gia a lot lately. Such a beautiful, vulnerable soul. 

Olivia from BenH's season was traumatized by the villain edit she got and it practically destroyed her mental health.

The show doesnt care about any of these people as long as they can use them for their entertainment values.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I feel like maybe it was Desiree that first said "I love you" to Brooks. Maybe it was Ben, but I think I recall being so surprised when Desiree did that, it was supposedly so verboten to declare love for a contestant until the proposal. 

 

I was more talking about the trend of the lead saying ILY to 2 ppl which we see more often these days.

 

But yes, Desiree boldly declared she was in love with Brooks so that Brooks leaving would be all the more devastating. You just knew something was about to happen.

[ljenkins782]

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

What now?   She did argue back, but it wasn't in defense of  Noah,  it was in defense of herself. 

She said Bennett was questioning her integrity by telling Noah he had zero chance of winning.  Bennett didn't say a word about producer driven reasons, did he?  Where does the "gaslighting" come in?  When did he try to convince Tayshia she was crazy?

Look, I don't like Bennett.   I think he's a jerk and not very smart, Harvard or no Harvard, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Tayshia acts like a scolding schoolmarm when she's angry.

I was hoping she would light into Bennett for being condescending and insulting to Noah, but if she did ,I didn't hear that.   (I might have missed something.)

I don't doubt she's a "nice person," but so far she's seemed very self-involved to me.  She loves it when men "open up" to her, but then after they've bared their soul, she always seems more tickled that they've told her than caring about what they've actually said.

Reminds me of that scene in 500 Days of Summer where Summer says something like "I've never told anyone this before" before launching into something very personal, but we never hear what she says because the story is from Tom's point of view and he's so over the moon at the idea that she's sharing with him that he doesn't even listen to what's being shared.

I think that's a common thing in superficial, early-stage relationships like what all of these on the show are. These deep emotional conversations aren't really about her caring about what they said, it's more about how it makes her feel that they're sharing with her. Doesn't mean she's not a nice person, it's just a thing that happens. 

And what it usually signifies is that there's not really an investment in that person and the relationship can fizzle if she stops to examine it. Like with Ben, that was some really deep stuff and once it's out of the competition stage and into a real life thing, that might end up being more than she can handle or will want to take on.

Regarding Bennett gaslighting, I do tend to agree that he leans that way. What makes me uncomfortable about him, or at least this character he's playing, is the way he twists things around and clearly thinks he's manipulating the situation to his advantage. When she was expressing her annoyance at the situation, he was all "yeah, totally. This is terrible" as if he had no hand it in whatsoever. Like she'd just buy his paper thin lies even in the face of evidence that he was a fully willing participant in all the drama.

And when he popped up out of nowhere, it was genuinely startling and creepy.

[nlkm9]

11 hours ago, thehepburn said:

 

I believe BenH started that trend and yes, he did look like a wishywashy asshole.

Andy told Bevin and Tessa he loved them both which was very shocking at the time . Yes now it seems routine and almost expected .