S04.E07: Lay Away

[paigow]

Josto makes a bold move, Loy battles his demons and Oraetta silences her critics.

Airdate: Nov 01 /20

[Crashcourse]

Chris Rock is the weakest link in this show and is thoroughly unbelievable as a mob boss.  Also, his yelling speeches are laughable.  His henchmen are better actors. 

 

[The Wild Sow]

Those were macarons!  MacaROONS are those coconut cookies!

And the damn murky dark lighting is back. Yeah, it’s noir-ish. But if the audience can’t see enough to follow the story (and it seems to be a good story), we’re going to lose interest.

[thuganomics85]

Josto basically going "I have a better idea: why don't you kill my brother, instead?!" was probably the most I ever liked him (and certainly related to him.)  But, of course, Loy saw that was what Josto wanted, so he simply freed Gaetano instead.  Yawn!

Calamita seems to have a lead on Rabbi and Satchel, but hopefully Rabbi is prepared for it.  I certainly wouldn't underestimate him!

I try not to harp on weak acting a lot due to realize that a lot of times other factors play a part in off performances (writing, directing, etc.), but once again, while I don't think he's cringeworthy awful, Chris Rock really just lacks the gravitas and intensity for this role.  I feel like I would find Loy and his story way more interesting if he was played by a stronger and more established actor (again, I'm thinking along the lines of someone like Mahershala Ali.)

At this point, Mayflower feels like she's off on her own separate show.

At least we got one good scene of Timothy Olyphant goodness, but this season could use much more of him.  

Spoiler

At least it looks like he'll have a major role in next week's episode, but that just makes me worry that he's going to get "surprisingly" killed during the likely shootout.

 

[Razzberry]

There's nothing worse than a boring unfunny mob story that's shot in the dark.  At this point everyone (except the kids) dying in big shootout would be the only satisfying ending for me. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Razzberry

[SunnyBeBe]

Trying to come up with the right word.....hmmm...disappointing is the best one I can come up with.  How many more episodes for them to wrap this up?

[Kiddvideo]

Sorry to the fans, but I really dislike Swanee. The dialogue (“older than the hills, older than...”) and the delivery remind me of a junior high production of Our Town. Gaetano mostly had to breathe heavy, so that worked out fine.

I’m confused why Rabbi doesn’t get the kid back to Loy. Satchel’s always wanted to go home, so this makes me think Rabbi is saving Satchel (in reality kidnapping him) because no one would save Rabbi when he was a boy.

There was a character in S2 named The Undertaker, that KC sent to clean-up after Mike (but Mike murdered.) Ethelrida’s father would’ve been ~40 in 1950...too old to be murdering people in 1979?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Kiddvideo said:

I’m confused why Rabbi doesn’t get the kid back to Loy.

Any Cannon house or business is a target...good chance they all get killed. Rabbi always promised that he would protect Satchel, not necessarily bring him home.

Edited November 2, 2020 by paigow

[paigow]

Josto is now the prime suspect in the murder of Dr. Harvard...

[paigow]

Loy is playing the Baron Zemo game from Avengers  Captain America: Civil War - breaking the Faddas from within by telling Gaetano the truth before releasing him.

Edited November 3, 2020 by paigow
MCU continuity

[rhys]

Why didn't Orietta take the cookie tin with her when she left Dr Harvard's office? Did she recognize the handwriting on the letter she took?

Yes, it's way too dark. Grrrr

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I try not to harp on weak acting a lot due to realize that a lot of times other factors play a part in off performances (writing, directing, etc.), but once again, while I don't think he's cringeworthy awful, Chris Rock really just lacks the gravitas and intensity for this role.  I feel like I would find Loy and his story way more interesting if he was played by a stronger and more established actor (again, I'm thinking along the lines of someone like Mahershala Ali.)

With regards to casting, I see Chris Rock as Loy Cannon as an even match for Jason Schwartzman as Josto Fadda in that both are smaller men who are portraying heads of mobs who need to be menacing and can't quite pull it off. 
This episode Loy's wife was more powerful and menacing than he was even when he was beating his own gang member.
The undertaker's wife is also the stronger of the pair. 
There are a lot of well-drawn, strong women in the season. 
I wonder if Josto's wife will rise to the occasion at some point.

[Crashcourse]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I try not to harp on weak acting a lot due to realize that a lot of times other factors play a part in off performances (writing, directing, etc.), but once again, while I don't think he's cringeworthy awful, Chris Rock really just lacks the gravitas and intensity for this role.  I feel like I would find Loy and his story way more interesting if he was played by a stronger and more established actor (again, I'm thinking along the lines of someone like Mahershala Ali.)

Mahershala Ali would have been perfect.

Chris Rock is trying to hard to be menacing, and he just isn't.

[tennisgurl]

I think that Chris Rock can do drama decently well, but he is just not intimidating as a mob boss, and its a real problem. He also really cannot pull off these long Fargo speeches about the human condition and America and philosophy or whatever, they're the kind of speeches that can be quite riveting in the hands of the right actor (Doctor Senator nailed every one of them) but in the wrong one they come off as really annoying and pretentious. 

I know the show is going for a noir thing, but I just cannot see anything and its driving me nuts. There are a million characters, half of whom I don't know much about so I have no idea what is going on. 

Josto telling Loy to kill his brother was pretty great, so of course Loy let him go because he knew that was exactly what he wanted, and because we cant get rid of this annoying asshole quite yet apparently. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Crashcourse]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

He also really cannot pull off these long Fargo speeches about the human condition and American and philosophy or whatever, they're the kind of speeches that can be quite riveting in the hands of the right actor (Doctor Senator nailed every one of them) but in the wrong one they come off as really annoying and pretentious. 

Exactly!  You nailed it.

[paigow]

Who is in the casket? Mr. Smutney trying to sneak out?

[Crashcourse]

And whatever happened to the ghost?

[SunnyBeBe]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Loy is playing the Baron Zemo game from Avengers: Civil War - breaking the Faddas from within by telling Gaetano the truth before releasing him.

Yeah, but, Gaetano isn't that bright.  What's to prevent him from trying to keep killing, especially his captors.  So, he forgets about killing the guys who beat the hey out of him and just focuses on his brother?  IDK.  It just seems so ridiculous.  

And why would you believe your child is dead with no proof?  Not realistic to me. So much of it just makes me laugh....and I don't think it's supposed to. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

With regards to casting, I see Chris Rock as Loy Cannon as an even match for Jason Schwartzman as Josto Fadda in that both are smaller men who are portraying heads of mobs who need to be menacing and can't quite pull it off. 
This episode Loy's wife was more powerful and menacing than he was even when he was beating his own gang member.
The undertaker's wife is also the stronger of the pair. 
There are a lot of well-drawn, strong women in the season. 
I wonder if Josto's wife will rise to the occasion at some point.

Yes.  I just can't buy into Loy's role.  He lets his underlings badmouth him in front of adversaries.  I thought that was capital offense.  I feel like I might be able to take him on and I'm not even violent. lol   

I'm also so over the Odis....the OCD, the incompetence.  So sniffly......I just can't.  What does he do?  

And, Deafy....tell me again why his nick name is amusing....he's so nothing...I keep reading about the actor Olyphant......why?  What does he do?  

The only thing that I'm now interested in finding out about is what happens with Satchel.  Think I know though.

Spoiler

Isn't the Rabbi's last name the same as the character from season 2 Mike Milligan?  Are they the same person?

 

[paigow]

43 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, Gaetano isn't that bright.

He knows the difference between war and betrayal - Josto is now a more immediate threat than Loy.

No point in killing a bunch of Cannon gang members, then getting shot in the head by "friendly fire". Kill Josto first, then worry about Cannon.

Edited November 2, 2020 by paigow

[HollyG]

51 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes.  I just can't buy into Loy's role.  He lets his underlings badmouth him in front of adversaries.  I thought that was capital offense.  I feel like I might be able to take him on and I'm not even violent. lol   

I'm also so over the Odis....the OCD, the incompetence.  So sniffly......I just can't.  What does he do?  

And, Deafy....tell me again why his nick name is amusing....he's so nothing...I keep reading about the actor Olyphant......why?  What does he do?  

The only thing that I'm now interested in finding out about is what happens with Satchel.  Think I know though.

  Hide contents

Isn't the Rabbi's last name the same as the character from season 2 Mike Milligan?  Are they the same person?

 

Spoiler

Other posters on this board have speculated that Satchel will turn out to be Mike Milligan after a name change. Seems possible to me.

 

[Lemons]

17 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Those were macarons!  MacaROONS are those coconut cookies!

And the damn murky dark lighting is back. Yeah, it’s noir-ish. But if the audience can’t see enough to follow the story (and it seems to be a good story), we’re going to lose interest.

I hate the dark lighting and I seem to be seeing it more and more.  So annoying.  We get it.  It's bleak, it's dark, it's nightime.

[J-Man]

22 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Those were macarons!  MacaROONS are those coconut cookies!

That bothered me too, along with the fact that I don't recall macarons being a "thing" in the US until maybe 15 years ago. Certainly not something that a Midwestern home baker like Oraetta would be making in 1950.

[LittleIggy]

22 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Those were macarons!  MacaROONS are those coconut cookies!

Yeah, I know. I kept yelling that at the tv. 😆 What did Oraetta put in the macaroons? 
Who was in that coffin, peeking out?

I would have thought Rabbi would have called Loy and told him that Satchel was safe. I can’t wait for Calamita to get his. 
I like the Consiglieri. He liked and respected Doctor Senator.

Edited November 3, 2020 by LittleIggy

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, J-Man said:

That bothered me too, along with the fact that I don't recall macarons being a "thing" in the US until maybe 15 years ago. Certainly not something that a Midwestern home baker like Oraetta would be making in 1950.

Maybe one of her previous victims was really rich and shared one with her...then she found a recipe at the Public Library and killed him with one...

[LittleIggy]

11 hours ago, rhys said:

Why didn't Orietta take the cookie tin with her when she left Dr Harvard's office? Did she recognize the handwriting on the letter she took?

She did take the cookie tin.

[LittleIggy]

8 hours ago, HollyG said:

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

And, Deafy....tell me again why his nick name is amusing....he's so nothing...I keep reading about the actor Olyphant......why?  What does he do?  

 

  Reveal spoiler

Isn't the Rabbi's last name the same as the character from season 2 Mike Milligan?  Are they the same person?

 

 

Timothy Olyphant is f*cking awesome. Watch Deadwood and Justified. He’s also in the season 2 The Mandalorian premiere. Love him! 

Edited November 3, 2020 by LittleIggy

[J-Man]

Another thing that bothered me was the Diners Club reference. The Diners Club card, just like the still popular American Express Green Card, was not a CREDIT card, it was a CHARGE card. You had to pay the balance in full every month. The sign that Loy saw clearly promoted it as a credit card.

[SunnyBeBe]

9 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Another thing that bothered me was the Diners Club reference. The Diners Club card, just like the still popular American Express Green Card, was not a CREDIT card, it was a CHARGE card. You had to pay the balance in full every month. The sign that Loy saw clearly promoted it as a credit card.

What was he looking at ? Saw the billboard, but not sure what he was thinking about,

[J-Man]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What was he looking at ? Saw the billboard, but not sure what he was thinking about,

It was a sign in a window advertising a new Diners Club credit card. He was angry because it appeared that the banker to whom he proposed the idea of a credit card stole the concept from him.

[shapeshifter]

50 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Who was in that coffin, peeking out?

Maybe Zelmare and Swanee?

[aghst]

23 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I try not to harp on weak acting a lot due to realize that a lot of times other factors play a part in off performances (writing, directing, etc.), but once again, while I don't think he's cringeworthy awful, Chris Rock really just lacks the gravitas and intensity for this role.  I feel like I would find Loy and his story way more interesting if he was played by a stronger and more established actor (again, I'm thinking along the lines of someone like Mahershala Ali.)

 

Is it because he appears and sounds too much like his comic persona?

He's a funny guy so he lacks gravitas?

Or he's a skinny guy so he doesn't have enough gravity?  Should be bigger and more physically imposing?  And not have the same high-pitched voice he uses to riff on people doing stupid things in contemporary America?

 

[Blakeston]

I think it was very intentional that Chris Rock was cast rather than someone like Mahershala Ali. Loy isn't supposed to be a tall, imposing man with an intimidating voice. He's a frightened man who's in over his head, and doesn't take naturally to the role of a mob boss.

Josto seems to be the same way - although Loy appears to be a much more strategic thinker than Josto.

That said, I don't think Chris Rock was the right choice. There's no nuance to his delivery.

[paigow]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe Zelmare and Swanee?

No. They are going to Philadelphia. No reason to hide.

[Cotypubby]

Sure hope that was the last of Swanee and the other woman (no way can I remember her name when I can barely remember the leads names.) Hate those two annoying characters and her eating in this episode was disgusting. 
 

I have only been watching this season because Jack Huston is on. He sure has the market cornered on “nervous twitchy damaged war vets.” 

[GodsBeloved]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:59 PM, Crashcourse said:

Chris Rock is the weakest link in this show and is thoroughly unbelievable as a mob boss.  Also, his yelling speeches are laughable.  His henchmen are better actors. 

 

I was planning to comment on this episode and say Chris Rock is amazingly awful.

[GodsBeloved]

22 hours ago, rhys said:

Why didn't Orietta take the cookie tin with her when she left Dr Harvard's office?

She did.

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

Is it because he appears and sounds too much like his comic persona?

 

For me I think it’s this plus I don’t think Chris Rock can act.

Did anyone see what the piece of paper Calamita found in Rabbi’s room said?

[paigow]

15 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

 

Did anyone see what the piece of paper Calamita found in Rabbi’s room said?

A coupon for a farming supplies store.

[Ellaria]

This season is a slog for me. I could not get thru the last two episodes without dozing off, regardless of the time of day that I am watching.

I love Chris Rock but, as this season drags on, it is apparent that he was miscast. I'm sure that he is a fine actor but his style doesn't fit with the writing for Loy. I'm kind of done with Orietta and Odis. I'm still not sure of their importance to the story but I assume that it is yet to come. Still, these two "misfits" (for lack of a better word) do not to hold my interest and their continued presence in the story may have been a miscalculation. 

Alternatively, Ben Whisaw and Timothy Olyphant receive too little screen time, IMO. 

The previous three seasons of Fargo were odd and quirky. However, that quirkiness was built around relatable characters. That was the charm of this show, especially in S2. This season lacks charm. I assume that I am supposed to connect with Ethelrida but I don't. There is an internal storyline there that isn't being well-represented.

Still not sure why the funeral home and a nurse baking poisonous treats have such a prominent role in this story. It is a lot to keep track of and I'm not sure that any of it is being well-executed. Regardless, I'm sure that I will keep watching,  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The scene that drove me to distraction was when the Cannon men came to have the dirty cop delivered to Loy. 

Did y'all notice how fastidious and careful he was with his figurines and their placement?  Was he not scared almost out of his mind?  That dude would have had allllllll of his Spidey senses on high.  So, he goes out his door and surveys the scene.  Sees nothing.  Then, he proceeds to his car.  So far, so good.

Then, he bends over to open his trunk and there are two strapping men a very few feet right behind him, and an entirely open space behind them (which the cop had just made sure was bereft of souls).  I know those men are savvy and crafty.  But, the laws of physics are immutable.  They broke a couple of them, at least.  No way could they have pulled that off, silently.  When such basic rules are blasted, it is ever so much more difficult to accept anything whatsoever on its face.

To play along, who, exactly, is on Gaetano's side within the Fadda gang, besides Calamita?  Josto has demonstrated that he is smart enough to know how to force Gaetano to leave.  Especially when he has zero muscle on hand to force a standoff.  

I can not believe that the hospital would not discover precisely what poison was in Harvard's body.   Oral-etta would be prime suspect 1 through 1,673,938 in the murder.   

Loy fully realizes he is at war.  He set things up with his gift of the weapons to have the irish on hi side for that very reason.  And now he's gonna let two excellent operators (The outlaws) just walk away?  Huh?  After what they just pulled off (getting Gaetano)?

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

To play along, who, exactly, is on Gaetano's side within the Fadda gang, besides Calamita?

And now he's gonna let two excellent operators (The outlaws) just walk away?

Yeah. Most of them were wiped out during the abduction. But they were incompetent anyway...

They were coerced into the job, so they could always betray him later. Also as wanted fugitives, they would continually attract unwanted attention from FBI / Marshals who are harder to manipulate than local K.C. cops...

Edited November 3, 2020 by paigow

[UnknownK]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The scene that drove me to distraction was when the Cannon men came to have the dirty cop delivered to Loy. 

Did y'all notice how fastidious and careful he was with his figurines and their placement?  Was he not scared almost out of his mind?  That dude would have had allllllll of his Spidey senses on high.  So, he goes out his door and surveys the scene.  Sees nothing.  Then, he proceeds to his car.  So far, so good.

Then, he bends over to open his trunk and there are two strapping men a very few feet right behind him, and an entirely open space behind them (which the cop had just made sure was bereft of souls).  I know those men are savvy and crafty.  But, the laws of physics are immutable.  They broke a couple of them, at least.  No way could they have pulled that off, silently.  When such basic rules are blasted, it is ever so much more difficult to accept anything whatsoever on its face.

 

His apartment was on the second or third story and he can see everywhere from the solid wooden stairs except directly down. Assuming nobody else lives there the two men would have just had to sneak down the the bottom of the stairs and wait for the dirt cop to leave and hide until he was at his car and then come out from behind the staircase.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/2/2020 at 11:45 PM, Blakeston said:

I think it was very intentional that Chris Rock was cast rather than someone like Mahershala Ali. Loy isn't supposed to be a tall, imposing man with an intimidating voice. He's a frightened man who's in over his head, and doesn't take naturally to the role of a mob boss.

Josto seems to be the same way - although Loy appears to be a much more strategic thinker than Josto.

But it makes sense that Josto is in over his head and isn't really effective as he got the job purely based on his last name and the fact that he is older than his brothers. Loy appears to have some how worked to become the boss of a criminal organization, and they even mentioned that he was from New York I think. So that means he not only rose up the ranks, but convinced other criminals to move to Kansas City with him. To do that you would have to be a very strong leader.