S05.E09: The Tipping Point

[Chalby]

4 hours ago, RealReality said:

To me, that is far more strategic than Candace, who has not been accused of spreading any rumors and has not said a solitary word about the rumors on air.  

Maybe this is the one time Candiace hasn't continued the rumour, but all I have to do is look at baby Dean to remember all the vile Twitters and Instagram posts that Candiace wrote and published continuously. Candiace didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she is not an innocent bystander when it comes to bad behaviour.

[ButterQueen]

On 9/29/2020 at 1:34 PM, Crazydoxielady said:

I disagree. Monique is now a slouch. She is violent, and shows zero remorse. She also felt free to talk about the fight in front of her young daughter the next morning, thereby passing on violence is ok.  Chris can and will do better. Perhaps she will see how bad her behavior was and is when her contract is not renewed. When the relationship ends due to her violent behavior and inability to have any insight or accountability for it, time will tell if she takes those "four homes" with her .  I'm sure Chris's mom has her eyebrow raised in triumph. She did warn him.

 

I think Chris is a family man and would find a way to help Monique with her anger.  She may have PPD.  Other than the game, I think he has always been very supportive and speaks softly when he disagrees.  I’d hate to see them divorce.

[ButterQueen]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:00 PM, qtpye said:

Perhaps Ray was thinking that if this Karen had met him in the 80's or 90's...she would have never looked twice at him? 

This is an insecurity that he needs to squash because it appears to me that Karen does really care for him.

I think it’s odd to initiate a “therapy” session, ask for honesty and storm off when your feelings are hurt.  I bet Ray never agrees to that again.

[ButterQueen]

Can we talk about Giselle’s house?  It seems to sit so low.  I need pictures.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Chalby said:

Maybe this is the one time Candiace hasn't continued the rumour, but all I have to do is look at baby Dean to remember all the vile Twitters and Instagram posts that Candiace wrote and published continuously. Candiace didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she is not an innocent bystander when it comes to bad behaviour.

Sorry,to be ignorant but what did Candiass say about Ashley's baby?

[LaurelleJ]

2 hours ago, drivethroo said:

Or Candiace could've told that story to say "Other cast members actually formed a plot to take down Monique, yet she is only coming after me.  Hmm...".  Monique has been endlessly giving press conferences without reporters on IG about Candiace.  She's spoken on Gizelle who allegedly was the ringleader of the plot a couple of times but most of her ire has been directed to Candiace.

IMO, Monique expects Gizelle and company to go after her, nothing new. She doesn't expect her alleged "friend" to withhold that information from her. I think outside forces are responsible for those two not being friends, I was really looking forward to them reconciling at the end of the reunion from last season. From the beginning I was hoping it would be ind of a Monique/Ashley/Candiace alliance, the "young girls" in the group being fun and having some great ki-ki moments.

Candiace definitely has her groove back, as she has been on her press this week to discuss the matter. I truly hope she heals from it and is able to move on. 

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, Chalby said:

Maybe this is the one time Candiace hasn't continued the rumour, but all I have to do is look at baby Dean to remember all the vile Twitters and Instagram posts that Candiace wrote and published continuously. Candiace didn't deserve to be assaulted, but she is not an innocent bystander when it comes to bad behaviour.

What did she say?  Did she say something about the baby Dean?

None of these castmembers are innocent bystanders when it comes to bad behavior, with maybe the exception of Robyn.  

I find Ashley so unlikable and unsympathetic that its hard for me to get worked up over anything someone says about her.  

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Chalby said:

I think Monique was 100% in the wrong for both her actions and with her lack of remorse. However, I have never liked Candiace and her mouth makes me want to slap her.  I thought seeing Candiace being shut down would be satisfying, but it was not. Gutter trash all around.

I hate seeing someone who is small, weak, vulnerable and powerless get physically attacked by someone who is larger and in a position of power.  

When Monique was in the same situation with tall, athletic, well liked, "popular girl" Money Mayweather Robyn, she turned tail and ran, but suddenly she "blacks out" and beats up smaller, weaker, vulnerable and powerless Candace.  

Candace didn't taunt her any more than Robyn did.  Not only did Robyn look straight at Monique and tell her to "do it" when she said she would choke her with an umbrella, but she ran down the street after her laughing at her and telling her to "go ahead" But with small, weak, powerless Candace she can't take someone saying "drag me" a few times?  To me, thats a bully who chose the easiest victim.  And I don't like that at all and I think it would just be a matter of time before Monique decided to do it again.  

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

IMO, Monique expects Gizelle and company to go after her, nothing new. She doesn't expect her alleged "friend" to withhold that information from her. I think outside forces are responsible for those two not being friends, I was really looking forward to them reconciling at the end of the reunion from last season. From the beginning I was hoping it would be ind of a Monique/Ashley/Candiace alliance, the "young girls" in the group being fun and having some great ki-ki moments.

Candiace definitely has her groove back, as she has been on her press this week to discuss the matter. I truly hope she heals from it and is able to move on. 

In one of the first episodes of the this season, monique discussed a conspiracy with others to "freeze" Candace out....did she go to her friend Candace and warn her?  Or did that slip her mind in her desperate effort to get in good with the GEB?  If I were Chris, I would sincerely discourage Candace from being friends with Monique....film with her if you must, but always keep a distance and never trust her.  Monique is a snake in the grass.

[LaurelleJ]

8 hours ago, RealReality said:

In one of the first episodes of the this season, monique discussed a conspiracy with others to "freeze" Candace out....did she go to her friend Candace and warn her?  Or did that slip her mind in her desperate effort to get in good with the GEB?  If I were Chris, I would sincerely discourage Candace from being friends with Monique....film with her if you must, but always keep a distance and never trust her.  Monique is a snake in the grass.

I understand, at that point she had already decided that the friendship was over. Both sides did, it seems. Candiace has said recently that the two Chris's spoke to each other. I wonder what they spoke about, and if they will remain fiends. If I'm not friends with someone, I'm not sure that I would want my spouse to be friends with their spouse. It's too weird. 

[RealReality]

6 minutes ago, LaurelleJ said:

I understand, at that point she had already decided that the friendship was over. Both sides did, it seems. Candiace has said recently that the two Chris's spoke to each other. I wonder what they spoke about, and if they will remain fiends. If I'm not friends with someone, I'm not sure that I would want my spouse to be friends with their spouse. It's too weird. 

I think that the Chris's could remain friends.  

I believe that Candace said that she thought she and Monique were friends when talking to Chris after getting dragged....so she may not have gotten the memo from Monique that they were no longer friends.  Which would make sense if Monique spoke kindly to Candace in private, but when she was around others, she threw Candace under the bus and planned to have her fired.  

Is there something I'm missing with the timeline?  Because I remember it happening but maybe it was a flashback of some sort?  In my mind, as a viewer, the timeline was

1. Foreshadowing of the fight that would happen later in the season

2. Monique participating in a discussion to "freeze" Candace out

3. Candace talking to Chris after the assault and saying that she thought Monique was her friend.

If thats right, it sounds like Candace didn't realize that Monique was no longer her friend when she participated in a discussion to freeze Candace out.  

[drivethroo]

3 hours ago, RealReality said:

If thats right, it sounds like Candace didn't realize that Monique was no longer her friend when she participated in a discussion to freeze Candace out.  

This is why I can't get onboard the "Candiace deeply betrayed Monique" train because her good friend Monique was conspiring to ice her out BEFORE attending Candiace's party where Charrisse showed up.  I think Monique's anger at Candiace has very little to do with Gigi/Charrisse and the rumors.  While that may be a contributing factor, I dont' think it's the main factor.

[LaurelleJ]

4 hours ago, RealReality said:

I think that the Chris's could remain friends.  

I believe that Candace said that she thought she and Monique were friends when talking to Chris after getting dragged....so she may not have gotten the memo from Monique that they were no longer friends.  Which would make sense if Monique spoke kindly to Candace in private, but when she was around others, she threw Candace under the bus and planned to have her fired.  

Is there something I'm missing with the timeline?  Because I remember it happening but maybe it was a flashback of some sort?  In my mind, as a viewer, the timeline was

1. Foreshadowing of the fight that would happen later in the season

2. Monique participating in a discussion to "freeze" Candace out

3. Candace talking to Chris after the assault and saying that she thought Monique was her friend.

If thats right, it sounds like Candace didn't realize that Monique was no longer her friend when she participated in a discussion to freeze Candace out.  

The Chris's can remain friends, they are probably mature enough for that, but it would just seem a little awkward to me. Regarding the timeline, since Candiace pulled out of the podcast and that occurred before the lakehouse trip, and behaved at the lake house as if their friendship was over. So between them having the truce, Monique attending her anniversary dinner, and her lake house, the two fell out, that fall out was enhanced with the Charisse drama, and then they went to the winery. Candiace did say she had been friends with Monique, but that is in contrast to everything she said in her talking heads about being done with her. Maybe that was crappy editing. 

57 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

This is why I can't get onboard the "Candiace deeply betrayed Monique" train because her good friend Monique was conspiring to ice her out BEFORE attending Candiace's party where Charrisse showed up.  I think Monique's anger at Candiace has very little to do with Gigi/Charrisse and the rumors.  While that may be a contributing factor, I dont' think it's the main factor.

I agree with the bold. Monique has said that there was a whole lot going on behind the scenes that we didn't see, and all will be revealed at the reunion. I've heard that before. It has to be deeper than that. It better be, to even begin to justify even coming close to going off the way she did. 

[loveaux]

i'm still annoyed with monique for making me side with candiace.

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

IMO, Monique expects Gizelle and company to go after her, nothing new. She doesn't expect her alleged "friend" to withhold that information from her. I think outside forces are responsible for those two not being friends, I was really looking forward to them reconciling at the end of the reunion from last season. From the beginning I was hoping it would be ind of a Monique/Ashley/Candiace alliance, the "young girls" in the group being fun and having some great ki-ki moments.

Candiace definitely has her groove back, as she has been on her press this week to discuss the matter. I truly hope she heals from it and is able to move on. 

I remember in the second season when Monique, Candiass, and Ashley were hanging around Monique's house in their bikinis and laughing. It seemed like a different show. They all seemed so young, carefree, and fun. I remember thinking how it would be great if these younger women could come together and become friends.

ALOT has happened since then.

[Rlb8031]

15 hours ago, RealReality said:

I hate seeing someone who is small, weak, vulnerable and powerless get physically attacked by someone who is larger and in a position of power.  

When Monique was in the same situation with tall, athletic, well liked, "popular girl" Money Mayweather Robyn, she turned tail and ran, but suddenly she "blacks out" and beats up smaller, weaker, vulnerable and powerless Candace.  

Candace didn't taunt her any more than Robyn did.  Not only did Robyn look straight at Monique and tell her to "do it" when she said she would choke her with an umbrella, but she ran down the street after her laughing at her and telling her to "go ahead" But with small, weak, powerless Candace she can't take someone saying "drag me" a few times?  To me, thats a bully who chose the easiest victim.  And I don't like that at all and I think it would just be a matter of time before Monique decided to do it again.  

So, I'm going to start by saying that Monique was a fault for letting Candace take her there. Blackouts, too many sips of wine, stress, post-partum, none of it excuses what she did. Full stop.

However, Candace? That chick? She broke the first rule - Don't let your mouth write a check your ass can't cash. 

The fact is that there are some people for whom the sheer act of being disrespected is an ass-whopping level of offense. Typically, the more impoverished someone is, the more it is important that you don't allow people to "talk crazy" to you or disrespect you. And once that behavior is engrained, it is very difficult to unlearn it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that despite Monique having all she ever wanted in life when it comes to material wealth, she still has a hard time shedding those early life lessons. 

And Candace, as a slick-mouthed, little wisp of a woman is completely responsible for reading the room and recognizing who is the lion at the watering hole and who is the gazelle. Candace mouth is neither small, weak or powerless, and her mistake was relying on Monique having grown up and changed. She said as much to Chris "I draw the line at putting hands on someone". But Candace didn't realize that Monique did not give not nary one goddamn about her line. 

I learned this lesson growing up and flip-flopping back and forth between my prep school, where the girls were quite comfortable calling each other sluts and bitches because someone looked at someone else's boyfriend and my neighborhood, where the same exact behavior might result in you being surrounded by a group of young ladies with Vaseline, no earrings, and a hidden razor blade, ready to lose their freedom just so long as you recognized that they weren't going to be disrespected like that. Candace didn't follow the law of self-preservation, reading the room to determine what is the possibility that this could go horribly wrong. That's exactly what Monique DID with Robyn, which is why she didn't end up laying hands on her. But I don't really have any sympathy for Candace because when you invite someone to drag you, and they actually do, it's completely foreseeable. You are relying on the kindness of others to save you from your own stupidity rather than thinking that your responsibility is to get out of the interaction in one piece. A slick mouth and quick comeback may work with Ashley or the Dean of Pledges, GIzelle. But it wasn't the way to go with Monique, and I'm going to need Candace to own that fact.  

[LaurelleJ]

Hi friends, two things:

One, the mid-season trailer has dropped, and wow. The fight took over all the conversation for the season, but there are still bombs to be dropped. We get a shot of Monique crying, Ashley providing a letter for Monique, and some problems between Michael and Ashley, and Candiace and Chris. Interesting to see how that goes. 

Two, I saw a post on twitter under the rhop hashtag, and of course cannot find it again, where supposedly Robyn gave an interview where she said that it was unfortunate all around that the fight happened, but that Candiace had 'won' by trying to get Monique out of character. I don't remember the words exactly. It was just a screenshot and not a link to an article, so has anyone else seen this article? Much different from their hard stance on it being Monique's fault alone. 

Edited to add: I found the article. It's an ET article. Robyn says it wasn't as bad watching it back as it felt in the moment, that the footage seemed less intense than she remembered. she said in the moment she blamed Monique and stands by that, but watching it back she can see why viewers might blame Candiace, andiace was almost waiting for Monique to lose her col, which she did and Candiace took the opportunity to make it worse, baiting her, and it's unfortunate on both sides. Also the article had a version of the altercation, I quote: "Candiace asking Monique to "drag her" led to a hair flip by Monique, then (according to Robyn) Candiace lightly touched under the lapel of Monique's vest. Seeing that physical contact sprung the women into action, with Wendy Osefo attempting to pull Candiace away from Monique, and Gizelle Bryant nudging Monique to stop". Then they go own with the hair pul, wine glass, etc. 

I feel like we always have to put the disclaimer that Monique was wrong in each post, which she was. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by LaurelleJ

[Stats Queen]

2 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

Edited to add: I found the article. It's an ET article. Robyn says it wasn't as bad watching it back as it felt in the moment, that the footage seemed less intense than she remembered. she said in the moment she blamed Monique and stands by that, but watching it back she can see why viewers might blame Candiace, andiace was almost waiting for Monique to lose her col, which she did and Candiace took the opportunity to make it worse, baiting her, and it's unfortunate on both sides. Also the article had a version of the altercation, I quote: "Candiace asking Monique to "drag her" led to a hair flip by Monique, then (according to Robyn) Candiace lightly touched under the lapel of Monique's vest. Seeing that physical contact sprung the women into action, with Wendy Osefo attempting to pull Candiace away from Monique, and Gizelle Bryant nudging Monique to stop". Then they go own with the hair pul, wine glass, etc. 

 

That’s interesting. I watched it several times and I am sure it wasn’t Candiace’s hand but someone else’s - Giselle’s.

First, there is no defense for Monique’s actions and it seems like she really was looking for a reason to fight. The fact that she has no remorse is chilling. 

Candiace reminded me of Kenya taunting Porsha and using the Bullhorn on the RHOA reunion where Porsha drug Kenya by the hair.  Porsha’s out of bounds physical violence was wrong just like Monique’s.

Porsha was immediately remorseful.

I seriously hope that somehow Monique understands how her actions were so so wrong.

I wish Candiace would not provoke people verbally, maybe this will teach her to tone down her rhetoric (Kenya learned nothing from her hair dragging) but maybe Candiace will.

I mean this not about the end result being physical violence, but In general words have meaning and can cut deeply  especially if you keep pushing someone’s buttons intentionally.

 

[Chalby]

49 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

general words have meaning and can cut deeply  especially if you keep pushing someone’s buttons intentionall

With age, comes maturity and I confess, I had a wicked temper between ages 14 and 18. Not sure if it was hormones or if I was just fed up with harassment, bullying, taunting happening all around me.

One time I was on a city bus in the early afternoon, and some belligerent, seemingly drunk 20(?) year old started demanding this senior lady give him her seat.

In hindsight, maybe he had mental health issues.

I spoke up and barked at him to move to the back and pointed out many of us also had to stand. He continued bugging this little ol' grandma, yelling in her face as she cowered, "Get out of MY seat you f'cking C u next Tuesday!" He screamed, spittle flying..

All I know is something inside me broke and I rushed towards him; punched him in the jaw/towards ear, and the impact threw him , down the couple of steps to the back exit door.

I remember (immediately after) phoning my mom, crying because I knew I went too far. Mom just replied, "I guess you know where you draw your 'line'. Just don't deny or justify your actions when the police arrive and/or charge you. Accept your misbehaviour and make amends."

Nothing came of it - never heard from police or transit. I was only involved in one more scuffle after that (again with some random abusive male on a dance floor), but that was it.

I confess that although I know I was in the wrong, it felt so satisfying - even now, after all these years. Worse, I still don't feel any remorse for that bus smack down. What separates me from Monique? Aside from the passage of time...?

Edited October 3, 2020 by Chalby
Typos

[RealReality]

9 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

 

However, Candace? That chick? She broke the first rule - Don't let your mouth write a check your ass can't cash. 

The fact is that there are some people for whom the sheer act of being disrespected is an ass-whopping level of offense. Typically, the more impoverished someone is, the more it is important that you don't allow people to "talk crazy" to you or disrespect you. And once that behavior is engrained, it is very difficult to unlearn it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that despite Monique having all she ever wanted in life when it comes to material wealth, she still has a hard time shedding those early life lessons. 

And Candace, as a slick-mouthed, little wisp of a woman is completely responsible for reading the room and recognizing who is the lion at the watering hole and who is the gazelle. Candace mouth is neither small, weak or powerless, and her mistake was relying on Monique having grown up and changed. She said as much to Chris "I draw the line at putting hands on someone". But Candace didn't realize that Monique did not give not nary one goddamn about her line. 

I learned this lesson growing up and flip-flopping back and forth between my prep school, where the girls were quite comfortable calling each other sluts and bitches because someone looked at someone else's boyfriend and my neighborhood, where the same exact behavior might result in you being surrounded by a group of young ladies with Vaseline, no earrings, and a hidden razor blade, ready to lose their freedom just so long as you recognized that they weren't going to be disrespected like that. Candace didn't follow the law of self-preservation, reading the room to determine what is the possibility that this could go horribly wrong. That's exactly what Monique DID with Robyn, which is why she didn't end up laying hands on her. But I don't really have any sympathy for Candace because when you invite someone to drag you, and they actually do, it's completely foreseeable. You are relying on the kindness of others to save you from your own stupidity rather than thinking that your responsibility is to get out of the interaction in one piece. A slick mouth and quick comeback may work with Ashley or the Dean of Pledges, GIzelle. But it wasn't the way to go with Monique, and I'm going to need Candace to own that fact.  

The bolded shouldn't be a rule. 

People should be allowed to say things to other people without fear of physical violence.  

To me, this argument is the slipperiest of slopes.  The "she asked for it" by being annoying or mean is not an argument that I ever really agree with.  All of these women are on a show to shit talk each other, what is going to be the next thing that will be used to justify Monique's violence because it was "too provoking?"

How did Candace target Monique?  That is some of revisionist history, imo.  Ashley asked if Monique and Candace were good.  Candace made a joke about how she loved Monique, even though Monique pretended to be asleep when she tried to say goodbye at the lakehouse.  Monique became irrationally upset about that comment.  Even if Monique was really asleep (which I don't believe), Chris would have told Monique about it, and she could have simply apologized for the perceived rudeness.  

How does that square with Candace walking in a room and recognizing Monique as a a lion or a gazelle?  Ashley asked the question and Candace made a joke, how do you see intent to provoke in that?  I've seen numerous examples this season where Candace has said something mild or done something mild and Monique have gone over the top, like at the lakehouse.  Candace has been the bigger person to walk away (which Monique gets made about too) or she apologizes, but at some point, is Candace allowed to defend herself?  Or will it always be a justifiable provocation for Monique?

Will people smaller than Monique have to walk on eggshells with her?  Should the show devolve into only allowing physically strong fighters to be allowed to speak freely?  

People say that they don't condone or excuse Monique's attack, but then its followed by an excuse or justification for Monique's attack.  

If Monique cannot control herself, she needs therapy or she needs to be off the show.  And she still isn't sorry about what she did and how she behaved.  I shudder to think about what she is teaching her children.  Accepting that violence is an acceptable response to verbal annoyance or any other annoyance is why you see women on WorldStar coming to blows in front of their children over the last scented candle in the clearance section at Ross.  

I dont think it should be foreseeable to be violently attacked for your words by another adult.  To me, thats victim blaming and the excuse used by abusers. I wonder if there would be this same energy had Chris been the one to hit Candace for being annoying, or if Chris S. hit Monique for "provoking" him?  What if she had dared him to hit her, would that justify it?  What if he was drunk?  Would there be a general shoulder shrug and "well, you knew he was bigger than you, you should have read the room!"  I realize that a man hitting a woman is different, but to me, the justification I've seen is the same "well, you were provoking me!"  "you know how I am!"

All these women shit talk each other and none of them signed up for the Bad Girls Club.  Maybe thats the show that someone like Monique needs to be on, since she doesn't have the control of her violent tendencies as a women over 30.  

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by RealReality

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Chalby said:

With age, comes maturity and I confess, I had a wicked temper between ages 14 and 18. Not sure if it was hormones or if I was just fed up with harassment, bullying, taunting happening all around me.

One time I was on a city bus in the early afternoon, and some belligerent, seemingly drunk 20(?) year old started demanding this senior lady give him her seat.

In hindsight, maybe he had mental health issues.

I spoke up and barked at him to move to the back and pointed out many of us also had to stand. He continued bugging this little ol' grandma, yelling in her face as she cowered, "Get out of MY seat you f'cking C u next Tuesday!" He screamed, spittle flying..

All I know is something inside me broke and I rushed towards him; punched him in the jaw/towards ear, and the impact threw him , down the couple of steps to the back exit door.

I remember (immediately after) phoning my mom, crying because I knew I went too far. Mom just replied, "I guess you know where you draw your 'line'. Just don't deny or justify your actions when the police arrive and/or charge you. Accept your misbehaviour and make amends."

Nothing came of it - never heard from police or transit. I was only involved in one more scuffle after that (again with some random abusive male on a dance floor), but that was it.

I confess that although I know I was in the wrong, it felt so satisfying - even now, after all these years. Worse, I still don't feel any remorse for that bus smack down. What separates me from Monique? Aside from the passage of time...?

Age is a huge factor to me.  

I expect teenagers to physically fight in response to words or annoyance, hormones, lack of life experience, and I'm not even sure when the brain fully forms. 

I fully expected the castmembers on BGC to physically fight, they were all in their 20s and hadn't seen much of life and weren't able to balance pros and cons very well.  Coming to blows over who was in the VIP and who paid their share for a bottle of liquor may seem reasonable in your 20s.

But in your 30s?  At that point, people should have matured.

I also think your situation was different due to protecting someone from another person who was clearly unhinged.   

 

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

 

I mean this not about the end result being physical violence, but In general words have meaning and can cut deeply  especially if you keep pushing someone’s buttons intentionally.

 

But that is what this show is about.  Women shit talking about each other.  

There wasn't a thing that Candace said that was as deeply cutting as Gizelle wearing that Uncle Ben shirt to Karen's press conference.  They never came to blows.

And if Monique had been looking for an excuse than no matter what Candace said, Monique was going to attack her.  Monique has been after Candace all season.  

I'm disappointed in Robyn, but I guess Monique's relentless efforts to make herself the victim on social media have paid off. 

[RealReality]

8 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

 

I feel like we always have to put the disclaimer that Monique was wrong in each post, which she was. 

Many people use this disclaimer, but I find it disingenuous when it is followed by a justification or excuse for Monique's behavior

"Monique was wrong....but (insert reason why Candace is responsible for Monique's attack)"

[RealReality]

11 hours ago, loveaux said:

i'm still annoyed with monique for making me side with candiace.

I haven't found Candace as bad this season as I did the last two.

I think she said a lot of over the top hurtful things on social media and she was pretty annoying.

But, she has become so much more palatable this season, IMO, that I think she saw herself on TV and cringed and read what people were saying about her and cringed.  

She has improved on the show, she made amends, apologized and mended fences.  I hope she has improved on social media and isn't as vicious, as often.  Not for any other reason than her own ends. 

I look at someone like Azelia Banks, fantastically talented, gorgeous, and so fucking smart that you don't know what to do.  But she completely fucked her up chance at a bigger career by being an asshole on social media.  And so often, Azelia would have a good point to make, something smart and nuanced.  But she'd resort to personal and offensive insults that her point would be totally lost.  I love AB's music and I think she is super talented.  There is not a reason on gods green earth why she shouldn't have had a mainstream career, she is pretty, skinny and talented.  But she is just so hated on social media.  Its sad to me that AB will always point the finger at others for her lack of success, and seemed truly upset that someone fat and talented like Lizzo got a shot before her.  

She is very extra, but I've come to appreciate her.  I think she and Kenya would get along well and I hope they meet one day, because Kenya knows how to play the game and I think Candace is still learning.  

[LaurelleJ]

5 hours ago, RealReality said:

Many people use this disclaimer, but I find it disingenuous when it is followed by a justification or excuse for Monique's behavior

"Monique was wrong....but (insert reason why Candace is responsible for Monique's attack)"

I agree with this.  I put no but... behind my statement. Monique was wrong, period. I'm more interested in the aftermath and how the fellow castmates are responding to the incident having been there and watching it play back. By posting Robyn's interview, I am not trying to justify Monique's behavior. I find it interesting what Robyn is saying now, a year removed from the incident. 

[Rlb8031]

17 hours ago, RealReality said:

The bolded shouldn't be a rule. 

People should be allowed to say things to other people without fear of physical violence.  

And women should be able to walk down dark alleys without fear of being attacked.

And black people should be able to purchase a home in whatever neighborhood they want without fear of having their homes or belongings vandalized.

And gay people should be able to love whomever they want publicly without fear of reprisal.

And yet, none of this is actually how the world works. 

Quote

How did Candace target Monique?

I never said Candace targeted Monique. What I said was that Candace needed to understand that while her line was drawn at hitting someone, Monique's was not. Candace's error was in thinking what you said, that you can say whatever you want to someone, and they will never resort to physical violence. I also never said that Candace's intent was to provoke Monique. But what you're missing here is Candace's intent doesn't matter. Of course she didn't intend to get mollywomped upside her wig multiple times by Monique. But what I'm suggesting is that when you say the kinds of things that Candace says (and I'm looking at the totality of her behavior on and off screen, including the horrible things said about Ashley on Twitter last year), you should understand that violence may occur. 
 

Quote

I dont think it should be foreseeable to be violently attacked for your words by another adult.  To me, thats victim blaming and the excuse used by abusers. I wonder if there would be this same energy had Chris been the one to hit Candace for being annoying, or if Chris S. hit Monique for "provoking" him?  What if she had dared him to hit her, would that justify it?  What if he was drunk?  Would there be a general shoulder shrug and "well, you knew he was bigger than you, you should have read the room!"  I realize that a man hitting a woman is different, but to me, the justification I've seen is the same "well, you were provoking me!"  "you know how I am!"

All these women shit talk each other and none of them signed up for the Bad Girls Club.  Maybe thats the show that someone like Monique needs to be on, since she doesn't have the control of her violent tendencies as a women over 30.

It should be entirely foreseeable that if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person they might attack you. If you call a gay person a f*&&^! or a black person a n$@@#% you should expect that there is the possibility you'll get punched in the face.

So in the simplest possible terms, I'm saying that Candace didn't think about the range of possible responses to her actions and therefore she ended up taking the L on this. And frankly, if the way you are going to walk through the world is "annoying", then yes, you have work to do on yourself as well.

[drivethroo]

On 10/2/2020 at 5:19 PM, Rlb8031 said:

The fact is that there are some people for whom the sheer act of being disrespected is an ass-whopping level of offense. Typically, the more impoverished someone is, the more it is important that you don't allow people to "talk crazy" to you or disrespect you. And once that behavior is engrained, it is very difficult to unlearn it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that despite Monique having all she ever wanted in life when it comes to material wealth, she still has a hard time shedding those early life lessons. 

And Candace, as a slick-mouthed, little wisp of a woman is completely responsible for reading the room and recognizing who is the lion at the watering hole and who is the gazelle. Candace mouth is neither small, weak or powerless, and her mistake was relying on Monique having grown up and changed. She said as much to Chris "I draw the line at putting hands on someone". But Candace didn't realize that Monique did not give not nary one goddamn about her line. 

You can't say Candiace needs to be responsible for her actions but because of Monique's growing up environment she's not responsible for hers.  Monique is not in the hood or the projects anymore and if she can't leave that mentality behind (which apparently she can't) then she needs to stop trying to get in with the Gizelle Jack & Jill crew where she'll never belong.  Perhaps that's a factor in her rage towards Candiace: Candiace is an asshole but will always be accepted by the Gizelle Jack & Jill crew whereas no matter what Monique does or how much money she has, Monique will never be accepted by those people.  Get in where you fit in.

On 10/2/2020 at 5:19 PM, Rlb8031 said:

I learned this lesson growing up and flip-flopping back and forth between my prep school, where the girls were quite comfortable calling each other sluts and bitches because someone looked at someone else's boyfriend and my neighborhood, where the same exact behavior might result in you being surrounded by a group of young ladies with Vaseline, no earrings, and a hidden razor blade, ready to lose their freedom just so long as you recognized that they weren't going to be disrespected like that.

If Monique has a "I'll beat a bitch's ass for disrespecting me" mentality, the other women are quite correct for not wanting to be around or associated with her.  If you're in the Jack & Jill, the sororities, the charities, the balls and galas etc. you're not trying to invite the hood girl where you're not sure if she's going to be fighting people to get "respect."

That's why I want to know what really happened between Charrisse and Monique, because I think Charrisse saw in Monique a younger version of herself, a girl from Jersey from modest circumstances, now living in this affluent society.  Charrisse took Monique under her wing but allegedly Monique stabbed her in the back and it's an undercurrent of the tension between Candiace and Monique and needs to be explored.

 

On 10/2/2020 at 5:19 PM, Rlb8031 said:

A slick mouth and quick comeback may work with Ashley or the Dean of Pledges, GIzelle. But it wasn't the way to go with Monique, and I'm going to need Candace to own that fact.

No.  If Monique can't control herself like the other women, Monique doesn't need to be around the other women.  And if she doesn't stop, at some point Big Boy is going to drop her back in the hood and find a new wife that won't embarass him with hood fights etc.

On 10/2/2020 at 9:30 PM, Stats Queen said:

I mean this not about the end result being physical violence, but In general words have meaning and can cut deeply  especially if you keep pushing someone’s buttons intentionally.

Yes they can, but in that particular moment, all Candiace was saying was "I'm Sleep/You Sleep" and twirling around.  I could understand Monique flying in a rage if Candiace had said

• That's why you cheated on your husband with the trainer
• That's why that last baby isn't even your husband's
• You're doing all that sucking up to Gizelle and she'll never be friends with a hoodrat like you

All Candiace said was "I'm Sleep/You Sleep/I'm Bored" and twirled around.  Nothing she said in that moment justified the beatdown and that leads me to believe it really didn't matter what Candiace said, Monique was going to beat her ass and was waiting for an opportunity to do so.  Remember, Candiace had actively been AVOIDING engaging with Monique in the episodes leading up to the fight.

Candiace DOES need to watch her mouth; the $900K tear down cabin remarks to Gizelle and the bedwench/roach comments to Ashley were uncalled for.  I think the audience would have a better understanding if Gizelle or Ashley had beat down Candiace but Candiace's "crime" doesn't fit the punishment and viewers (and apparently Candiace) deserve to know why.

On 10/2/2020 at 9:53 PM, Chalby said:

What separates me from Monique? Aside from the passage of time...?

You knew you were wrong and were prepared to accept the consequences. Monique doesn't accept any responsibility and is shifting everything on Candiace.

13 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

I find it interesting what Robyn is saying now, a year removed from the incident. 

I think Robyn, more often than not, tries to be fair and look at both sides of the situation.  I don't think her account of the fight contradicts what we've seen on film; it adds that Candiace flicked under Monique's lapel (which we didn't see, and after Monique flipped Candiace's hair) but Robyn also does say Gizelle nudged Monique to stop (which we saw) and Wendy was trying to pull Candace away (which we saw). She's basically saying Candiace's actions could be seen as provoking but Monique was in the wrong.

 

33 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

What I said was that Candace needed to understand that while her line was drawn at hitting someone, Monique's was not.

Monique knows how to control herself when other people disrespect her.   Monique beat Candiace's ass because she had nothing to lose by beating Candiace up.  Candiace doesn't have any money (Ashley), hands (Gigi), social power (Gizelle, Charrisse) or a crew (Robyn).   She would never lay hands on any of those women because if she tried to beat up Ashley, she & Chris would lose any chance of any real estate deals Chris might be trying to work on with Michael.  If she tried it with Gigi, Gigi might beat HER ass.  Gizelle/Charrisse would shut her down socially (and that may have happened in Charrisse's case). Robyn has a crew backing her plus Robyn just might have those hands too.  Candiace has none of that, so Candiace was an easy target.

 

1 hour ago, Rlb8031 said:

If you call a gay person a f*&&^! or a black person a n$@@#% you should expect that there is the possibility you'll get punched in the face.

Sure, but all Candiace said to Monique was "I'm Sleep/You Sleep."  If that triggers Monique so much that she needs to beat up Candiace and try to rip off her wig, Monique doesn't need to be on this show because one of the main components of the show is disrespecting the other cast members with reads and shade.  If Monique cannot handle that, Monique needs to leave the show.  I somehow suspect BRAVO might make that decision for her, though.

 

[Stats Queen]

10 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

Yes they can, but in that particular moment, all Candiace was saying was "I'm Sleep/You Sleep" and twirling around.  I could understand Monique flying in a rage if Candiace had said

• That's why you cheated on your husband with the trainer
• That's why that last baby isn't even your husband's
• You're doing all that sucking up to Gizelle and she'll never be friends with a hoodrat like you

All Candiace said was "I'm Sleep/You Sleep/I'm Bored" and twirled around.  Nothing she said in that moment justified the beatdown and that leads me to believe it really didn't matter what Candiace said, Monique was going to beat her ass and was waiting for an opportunity to do so.  Remember, Candiace had actively been AVOIDING engaging with Monique in the episodes leading up to the fight.

Candiace DOES need to watch her mouth; the $900K tear down cabin remarks to Gizelle and the bedwench/roach comments to Ashley were uncalled for.  I think the audience would have a better understanding if Gizelle or Ashley had beat down Candiace but Candiace's "crime" doesn't fit the punishment and viewers (and apparently Candiace) deserve to know why.

 

I totally agree with your last paragraph and I think you phrased eloquently what I was thinking in my mind.

You are totally Correct that in that situation Candiace really said nothing of importance and was just smack talk between these two women. Monique was just looking for a reason to drag Candiace, and decided this was he opportunity she decided was the best.

Candiace has indeed been on her best behavior this season, I actually like her this season and have garnered a wee bit of respect for her.

My comment about Candiace’s “mouth” was more about her comments on social media, and I didn’t make that clear.

White Chris seems to be the Candiace whisperer and I’m all for that.

[Chalby]

On 10/2/2020 at 2:19 PM, Rlb8031 said:

So, I'm going to start by saying that Monique was at fault for letting Candace take her there.

However Candace? That chick? She broke the first rule - Don't let your mouth write a check your ass can't cash. 

Nothing about Candiace is weak vulnerable or powerless. These two women were initially thick as thieves and bonded over their mutual thirst for game and celebrity.

As for Candiace's "shock" that Monique's final straw resulted in a full-on attack, I have to chuckle that Candiace didn't anticipate it? Yeah, sure...

Anyone who can tweet, post, and speak on WWHL with such venom and hatred, needs to go away and learn to self reflect.

Candiace, whose mother has allowed her the $$ to lead the life she does, is so jealous of Monique and Ashley, that it kills her when they don't deny where their money comes from, whereas Candiace has tried to imply independent wealth, and freaks, while holding a knife, when her biographical facts are challenged. Poor Candiace needs to shut up, realize she has nothing to feel entitled about, and allow her maturity to run its course.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Chalby

[RealReality]

6 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

And women should be able to walk down dark alleys without fear of being attacked.

And black people should be able to purchase a home in whatever neighborhood they want without fear of having their homes or belongings vandalized.

And gay people should be able to love whomever they want publicly without fear of reprisal.

And yet, none of this is actually how the world works. 

I never said Candace targeted Monique. What I said was that Candace needed to understand that while her line was drawn at hitting someone, Monique's was not. Candace's error was in thinking what you said, that you can say whatever you want to someone, and they will never resort to physical violence. I also never said that Candace's intent was to provoke Monique. But what you're missing here is Candace's intent doesn't matter. Of course she didn't intend to get mollywomped upside her wig multiple times by Monique. But what I'm suggesting is that when you say the kinds of things that Candace says (and I'm looking at the totality of her behavior on and off screen, including the horrible things said about Ashley on Twitter last year), you should understand that violence may occur. 
 

It should be entirely foreseeable that if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person they might attack you. If you call a gay person a f*&&^! or a black person a n$@@#% you should expect that there is the possibility you'll get punched in the face.

So in the simplest possible terms, I'm saying that Candace didn't think about the range of possible responses to her actions and therefore she ended up taking the L on this. And frankly, if the way you are going to walk through the world is "annoying", then yes, you have work to do on yourself as well.

Yikes.  This is such a dystopian view that I don't know where to begin.  

Annoyance is in the eye of the beholder, and each one of these women annoy the other.  If we're always going to shoulder shrug and say "oh well, you annoyed someone, so......you kinda should have expected to get physically attacked" then we only set up a show where the women cannot freely express themselves for fear of getting attacked when someone complains that they were annoyed or "provoked" by something someone said to them.

Saying that you have the responsibility to walk on eggshells or accommodate grown adults because you have to foresee their violent tendencies is not an acceptable view to me.  Unless there is some sort of psychosis or mental diagnosis or something of the sort.  

If Monique cannot control her violent tendencies thats on her, not the rest of the world to accommodate her.  

So if you have an abusive husband, when he hits you, you probably just should be quiet?  While thats an extreme example, its illustrative of the  "well you said the wrong thing to the wrong person so  you should have seen that coming" mentality doesn't appeal to me. 

Anyone who gets violent will claim that someone said the wrong thing to them, did the wrong thing, looked at them the wrong way.  So all the world must accomodate these people?  You have to be a clairvoyant and know what is going to offend their sensibilities and send them into a violent rage? How do you know what the wrong thing is?  You can't freely express yourself around these people because you'll be responsible for their violence?  

Adults have to have boundaries.  

If Monique chooses her victims based on who she can get away with beating up and who she can't, she is just a violent bully.  And thats how I read your statements about why she walked away from Robyn and not from Candace. 

As for the lion and gazelle at the watering hole, the implication, as I read it, was that it was up to Candace to recognize that Monique was going to beat her up and therefore she should have avoided upsetting her.  Thats the same excuse domestic abusers use.  "you knew i wanted my dinner hot," "you know how jealous I get."  And much like in those situations, everything Candace said or did upset Monique because Monique was looking for an easy victim and target.  This time, at the winery, all Candace did was make a joke.  It was shady, but certainly no more than any other joke a housewife has made.  THAT was what started it.  

 Violent people and low key bullies will always say that they were provoked, triggered and someone else had it coming for saying x, y, and z, looking at them, on stepping on their toe, bumping into them on the subway.  No matter WHAT you do, they will be "provoked" into a violent response which they will say you're responsible for no matter how small the infraction. 

Monique would have found a way to beat Candace up eventually, no matter what, IMO.  Monique has been absolutely relentless about Candace this season, and has tried to start something time and again, but prior to this, Candace either apologized or walked away.  But, to suggest that no matter what Candace can never speak up for herself and must ALWAYS walk away or apologize because she should foresee that standing up for herself and not just rolling over will result in a beating is....a little ridiculous to me.  

Even Monique said that Candace had been "asking for it" for a year, so it wasn't even what she said that day, Monique had been looking for an excuse for a year.  Frankly, I don't even know how Candace had been "asking for it" for over a year, when Charisse, Ashley and Gizelle, who have done far worse to Monique.  

As for winning and losing.  I disagree, Monique has clearly lost the respect of her husband, she has probably lost the respect of her pastor, she has probably lost potential advertisers and sponsors for her website and podcast because they don't want to work with someone unpredictable and violent, her target audience is probably more turned off by her violence. Sometimes its easy to forget that people active on social media about the show are likely a vocal minority of viewers.  Monique lost position with her group of coworkers and gave gizelle a perfect reason to vilify her and advocate for her to be iced out. 

Monique has six coworkers, at least two of them are solidly against her.  Robyn called her a liar, and while she recently seems to have softened, she will NEVER side with Monique over Gizelle.  So, now thats three of six castmembers against her.  Wendy could be a friend, but remember, Wendy's side hustle is commenting on television and so advocating for someone who was violent and unrepentant is probably not a good look for her.  Of course Wendy will film with her, but I don't think she is going to advocate for Monique.  So now thats four of six castmembers.  Karen will stay neutral, but I don't think she is going to strongly advocate for either side, thats a draw.  Ashley will advocate for Monique and stay in her corner, but Ashley is such a fairweather friend. 

So, is it "winning" if Monique has like four out of six cast members against her, one neutral and only one who is firmly in her corner?  I don't know..maybe, but it doesn't seem like it.  

And personally, as a human adult, I don't physically attack people, but I DO get angry.  Sometimes extremely angry, and it may be effective in the moment, but extreme anger is a loss of control, and if someone else makes me lose control than I haven't "won" at all, even if I ended up getting my way.  Its not a "win" for an adult to resort to physical violence and if monique doesn't have a line thats not a shoulder shrug "well its on you for not reading the room"

Edited October 4, 2020 by RealReality

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Chalby said:

Nothing about Candiace is weak vulnerable or powerless. These two women were initially thick as thieves and bonded over their mutual thirst for game and celebrity.

 

There is everything weak and vulnerable about someone who is small, physically weak and generally despised.  

That Candace made herself despised by her own comments doesn't change the fact that she is vulnerable because of it.  

I remember Monique getting pretty pressed when Gizelle told her that the only reason she had anything was because of her husband and Monique got all "you don't know what I've done!"  So, I don't think that Candace is the only one who may be sensitive about this topic.  To her credit, Ashley has been clear that she is broke without Michael's money.  

[Chalby]

7 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

What I said was that Candace needed to understand that while her line was drawn at hitting someone, Monique's was not. Candace's error was in thinking that you can say whatever you want to someone, and they will never resort to physical violence.

You win my "No sh#t Sherlock" observational prize.

Thank you for pointing out that just because Candiace can hurl insults, or insist upon and spread detrimental falsehoods; she believed she needn't worry about physical backlash. Even though the show was uncomfortable to watch, IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN.

Candiace finally understood that running her mouth came with consequences.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Chalby

[RealReality]

7 minutes ago, Chalby said:

You win my "No sh#t Sherlock" observational prize. Thank you for pointing out that just because Candiace can hurl insults, or imply detrimental falsehoods, that there won't be a physical backlash. Even though it was uncomfortable to watch, IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN.

All of these women insult each other, do they all need to be beaten up?  Gizelle's shirt was way more of an insult to Karen than anything Candace has said to Monique on the show.  Ashley strongly implied that Monique is a drunk and was drunk driving.  Monique says this is untrue, so should Ashley have been beaten up for daring to imply such a thing about Monique?

And why did it need to happen, so Candace can be muzzled and not speak her mind, HOWEVER distasteful it may be?  This is a show where the women are supposed to shit talk to each other, now one of them had to be violently assaulted so she stops doing what she was signed onto this show to do?

I, with all my heart, hate Tomi Lahren and Candace Owens.  I find them both unpalatable, but I wouldn't say that either of them should be violently assaulted because they say shitty and provocative things and should be violently attacked to muzzle them.  

[Chalby]

On 9/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, qtpye said:

It's funny how their roles have changed.

It used to be that Ray brought in the big bucks and Karen was the beautiful wife that made Ray look good.

Now Karen is bringing in the big bucks and Ray is helping her look good because being married for many years to a successful man (tax issue aside) is part of her "brand".

I really hope their love runs deeper then just appearances...I always thought it did.

Awesome post, thank you!

[pasdetrois]

Candiace isn't Monique's problem. Monique's problem is that she appears to be deeply discontented at this point in her life, has a domineering husband, may be hitting the sauce too much, has a temper, and privately believes it's OK to use violence when she thinks it's justified.

She's headed for Dorinda Medley territory, with her obsessions about what's wrong with everyone else instead of facing her own life. She is thin-skinned and judgmental to a fault.

At some point, an adult (especially a parent who models behavior for impressionable children) learns to grit her teeth and rise above the annoying mother-in-law, lazy moms, and trashy work environment.

[Baltimore Betty]

How bad do we think Monique and Candiace's fight would have been if there were no cameras around? 

I think back to all the physical fights that have happened with Theresa/Danielle table flip, Guidice vs. Gorga's fight at the christening and the fist fight at their "healing" retreat, Porsha and Kenya's reunion tackle, Nene and Kim on the tour bus, Nene and the camera man in her closet, Apollo and who ever that guy was at that pajama party, basically any fight that is filmed on the HW's shows and the camera men and security always intervene at some point.  I don't think any of the HW's would have been able to get Monique's hands out of Candiace's hair on their own.  

Monique seems unhappy in her personal life, maybe it is PPD? I hope she get's help soon.  

 

 

[drivethroo]

39 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I don't think any of the HW's would have been able to get Monique's hands out of Candiace's hair on their own.  

Pretty badly because it took 5 producers to get Monique off Candiace and that was ON camera.

Monique is lucky this was on camera for the show because if this was just 2 women fighting in Montgomery County MD, I think Monique would've had a couple of days of jail time, a criminal record and Big Boy would've been writing a nice settlement check to Candiace.

Nobody "needs" to get their ass beat.  With this logic, it should be ok for a viewer to run up on Monique, beat her up and slice her pretty face open because they might think Monique "needs her ass beat."   Maybe Katie can come back for Season 6 and beat Ashley's ass for the reckless things that came out of her mouth in Season 4?

[Rlb8031]

10 hours ago, RealReality said:

So if you have an abusive husband, when he hits you, you probably just should be quiet?  While thats an extreme example, its illustrative of the  "well you said the wrong thing to the wrong person so  you should have seen that coming" mentality doesn't appeal to me. 

No, you should leave that relationship quick and in a hurry understanding who he is and that your responsibility is to protect yourself. But if you choose to stay - for whatever reason - then yes, you should assume that someone who hits you is not going to change. 

10 hours ago, RealReality said:

Saying that you have the responsibility to walk on eggshells or accommodate grown adults because you have to foresee their violent tendencies is not an acceptable view to me. 

But that is certainly a reality for our society - its exactly what minorities are asked to do in their interactions with police every day. 

10 hours ago, RealReality said:

And personally, as a human adult, I don't physically attack people, but I DO get angry.  Sometimes extremely angry, and it may be effective in the moment, but extreme anger is a loss of control, and if someone else makes me lose control than I haven't "won" at all, even if I ended up getting my way.  Its not a "win" for an adult to resort to physical violence and if monique doesn't have a line thats not a shoulder shrug "well its on you for not reading the room"

You keep talking about what Monique's responsibility to Candace is - not to get so angry and lose control. I'm discussing what Candace's responsibility to Candace is. Candace's health and safety should be Candace's primary concern, and putting herself in a position where she is relying on the other person in a confrontation to be in control of herself, firmly turns that responsibility over to some one else. 

Control is something that is learned. Not everyone can do that and pretending that just because someone has reached a certain age, is worth a certain amount of money, had achieved a certain level of success or recognition means that they can "control" themselves can have horrible consequences. Lack of control is what allows people in power to take advantage of others - and I think that if you rely on someone else to care enough about you not to hurt you, physically, financially, judicially, politically then yes, you might lose. 

[RealReality]

11 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

 

You keep talking about what Monique's responsibility to Candace is - not to get so angry and lose control. I'm discussing what Candace's responsibility to Candace is. Candace's health and safety should be Candace's primary concern, and putting herself in a position where she is relying on the other person in a confrontation to be in control of herself, firmly turns that responsibility over to some one else. 

Control is something that is learned. Not everyone can do that and pretending that just because someone has reached a certain age, is worth a certain amount of money, had achieved a certain level of success or recognition means that they can "control" themselves can have horrible consequences. Lack of control is what allows people in power to take advantage of others - and I think that if you rely on someone else to care enough about you not to hurt you, physically, financially, judicially, politically then yes, you might lose. 

If you cannot learn to control your violent rages you do not belong in normal society.  If you cannot learn it by 30, you probably aren't going to be in normal society for very long and very often.  

I think most people who have reached an age or position and have managed to stay out of prison have control, its their decision whether to exercise that control or not.  

Case in point, Monique CONTROLLED herself around Charisse at the party, she CONTROLLED herself around Robyn when Robyn laughed in her face and told her to go ahead and choke her.  So Monique has the ability to control herself, even in the middle of a conflict.  So she has learned control, she just chose not to exercise this control when it was someone small and vulnerable.  

As for Candace's "responsibility to herself" - I cannot agree because this view diminishes the responsibility of everyone else.  Every single person is responsible for their own behavior.  Candace is responsible for being verbally annoying.  This does not, in any way, as I believe you suggest, make her responsible for "protecting herself" from someone else overreacting violently to a verbal annoyance.  

[Jel]

I did notice a difference in Candiace this year, but I can't discern whether that difference stems more from a genuine desire for self-improvement or a desire to improve her tv image.

As it stands right now, Candiace has won in the court of public opinion. If her self-improvement efforts are genuine, I expect will see the fruits of those efforts going forward with sweeter interactions with the other ladies and at least 50 % less character assassinations. But if they aren't genuine, then I expect her to emerge as the Potomac version of Tamra, where she'll be moving up the ladder, season by season, til she finally unseats Gizelle and Karen as Queen Bee.

My hope is her efforts are genuine, but I wouldn't be willing to bet $10 on that right now.

[Legalbeagle421]

I find it very interesting that the two producers start this clip saying they never expected this type of behavior on Potomac. https://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-potomac-after-show/season-5/videos/the-potomac-wives-break-down-the-winery I think it further supports why the other women were so turned off by it. They thought they were above the craziness of the other HW cities. I would agree. Potomac has always been messy but kind of like NY, it doesn't go as low as some of the other cities do. 

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

I find it very interesting that the two producers start this clip saying they never expected this type of behavior on Potomac. https://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-potomac-after-show/season-5/videos/the-potomac-wives-break-down-the-winery I think it further supports why the other women were so turned off by it. They thought they were above the craziness of the other HW cities. I would agree. Potomac has always been messy but kind of like NY, it doesn't go as low as some of the other cities do. 

You may remember more about this than me, but I also wonder if this statement isn't a legal cover.  "We knew things could get violent but still allowed them to film together" maybe could be gross negligence, which I didn't think you could really contract your way out of.  But "we had no clue this would ever happen" is pretty safe.  

If thats the case, I wonder if there is a potential liability issue for bringing back a cast member who already got physical with another and has shown no regret for it.  Would be be grossly negligent to bring her back if she attacked Candace again?  

[Legalbeagle421]

15 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You may remember more about this than me, but I also wonder if this statement isn't a legal cover.  "We knew things could get violent but still allowed them to film together" maybe could be gross negligence, which I didn't think you could really contract your way out of.  But "we had no clue this would ever happen" is pretty safe.  

If thats the case, I wonder if there is a potential liability issue for bringing back a cast member who already got physical with another and has shown no regret for it.  Would be be grossly negligent to bring her back if she attacked Candace again?  

I'd have to look at the casts' contracts with production. However, I'm gonna assume production probably has that contract locked down tight disclaiming all kinds of things so that the ladies cannot sue them or each other civilly lol. 

[RealReality]

16 minutes ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

I'd have to look at the casts' contracts with production. However, I'm gonna assume production probably has that contract locked down tight disclaiming all kinds of things so that the ladies cannot sue them or each other civilly lol. 

I think there are indemnity clauses you could probably add to the contract, but I believe in our state at least, as a general rule, you cannot contract around gross negligence.  Ha ha, its been so long since I've taken contract! I know that there was one recent case from some MTV  show, but I cannot remember the outcome and what the reasoning or arguments were.  Meh!

[Legalbeagle421]

19 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think there are indemnity clauses you could probably add to the contract, but I believe in our state at least, as a general rule, you cannot contract around gross negligence.  Ha ha, its been so long since I've taken contract! I know that there was one recent case from some MTV  show, but I cannot remember the outcome and what the reasoning or arguments were.  Meh!

Great point! We'd need to know contract law in Maryland. I work in personal injury, so entertainment contracts are little out of my depth lol. Either way, I imagine the bar is pretty high to prove gross negligence in this instance since it gets into respondeat superior legalese and I'm sure Bravo has their top lawyers on deck since the ladies in the other cities proved time and time again that they can pop off lol. 

To go back to your other initial comment, I'm sure there was some level of legal thinking/political correctness in the producers' responses. However, the more I think about it, Potomac was supposed to be about charities or something. So I think the women were thought of being of a higher standard, whether that was fair or not. 

Also, I meant to post this in this week's thread but copied and pasted into the wrong one. I guess it works here too though since this is where it all began lol. 😊

[ThatGreyCat]

As everyone else has said, it was the eerie calm that Monique displayed that made it so shocking to me.  She was like the terminator and nothing could dissuade her from her mission.  She really did want to hurt/injure Candiace.  Her calmly walking around the building to go after her a second time?  Scary!  Nothing about this felt fake to me at all and it was disturbing to see.  She didn't seem out of control at all, in those moments, but she did seem to go into a different zone.  

[TV Diva Queen]

On 9/29/2020 at 11:45 AM, OdinO. said:

I can honestly say I am not "in love" with my husband anymore. It is a much deeper love than that hormonal endorphin" in love" feeling. It's a silly question for a long married couple. 

White people get judged by other white people's behavior also. Even by the actions of white people who lived hundreds of years ago.

Skipped ahead in the comments to reply to this.  WORD.  I'm 28 years in and love evolves.  I'd go off that proverbial cliff with him, but its different (not in a bad way) that it was when we met.  

[Jel]

On 10/4/2020 at 12:41 PM, Rlb8031 said:

No, you should leave that relationship quick and in a hurry understanding who he is and that your responsibility is to protect yourself. But if you choose to stay - for whatever reason - then yes, you should assume that someone who hits you is not going to change. 

But that is certainly a reality for our society - its exactly what minorities are asked to do in their interactions with police every day. 

You keep talking about what Monique's responsibility to Candace is - not to get so angry and lose control. I'm discussing what Candace's responsibility to Candace is. Candace's health and safety should be Candace's primary concern, and putting herself in a position where she is relying on the other person in a confrontation to be in control of herself, firmly turns that responsibility over to some one else. 

Control is something that is learned. Not everyone can do that and pretending that just because someone has reached a certain age, is worth a certain amount of money, had achieved a certain level of success or recognition means that they can "control" themselves can have horrible consequences. Lack of control is what allows people in power to take advantage of others - and I think that if you rely on someone else to care enough about you not to hurt you, physically, financially, judicially, politically then yes, you might lose. 

I think there's just a very practical, common sense side of this that's somehow always off the table for discussion, especially in academic circles, but shouldn't be. Good parents teach their kids to mind what they do and say. We say this to our kids because we love them and want them to have happy, trouble free lives. And we know that heated verbal exchanges can lead you places you don't want to end up, so we teach them to avoid that kind of interaction as much as possible.  This is a pragmatic approach to life.

The first thing good parents teach is "use your words" and once children have mastered that, it's "use your words wisely". Just like we use restraint with our hands, we need to also use restraint with our mouths. Candiace is very verbal, and very capable with words. Monique is not. Again, just pragmatically speaking, in any verbal exchange, if you use your big guns (harsh words) you are putting yourself at risk. Since you don't know what the risk is, be careful what you say to people. From an equally skilled opponent, you could get harsh, psychologically or emotionally damaging words back, or you could get physical violence back. This isn't how it should be, but it's how it is, right now, at this stage in human society.  It's willful blindness to pretend it isn't, and it's not serving anyone to pretend that words can't have unpleasant, unintended consequences, imo.

 

[byrd]

On 10/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, Jel said:

I keep saying this, every post, and here it is, one more time: Nothing Candiace did or said meant Monique was justified in assaulting her. Monique was wrong to do that.  And Candiace has done some noteworthy, eyebrow-raising things as well, which may have contributed to the downfall of their friendship.  That's NOT to say that Monique earned a right to assault Candiace. These are two separate topics worthy of discussion, imo,  but neither of them is, either overtly or covertly; stated, implied or dog whistled, "But let's be real -- what did Candiace do to deserve that assault?" I seriously, sincerely do not think Candiace deserved to be assaulted. The fact I have to keep typing that out is beyond bizarre to me as well, but...2020.

Honest question: is it really crazy or out of line to think that Candiace may have had any role in the demise of her friendship with Monique? Is that an outrageous idea, that we can't or shouldn't even discuss? 

I'd be interested in knowing the same things you are interested in knowing, dynamics-wise, so I regret we didn't get to learn more about that.

Tbh, I don't really know who Gigi is. I've read here that she is Monique's friend, but I don't remember her from the show, so I have absolutely no sense of their friendship. 

I think there will be consequences for Monique re: the show. I would be surprised if they asked her back for next year.

They will ask her back next season, it would surprise me if they fired her. They never fire these women when they engage in physical assault.  Unless the other women refuse to film with her altogether, I doubt if that happens, Giselle can try this tactic, but she knows she's not turning down that Bravo check because of this bullshit. 

[nexxie]

nm

Edited October 19, 2020 by nexxie