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This is interesting:

On 3/5/2019 at 6:02 PM, humbleopinion said:

However, I'm not as big a fan of Kristine the Queen as some other people seem to be. She is reasonably attractive (but has terrible hair!) --and she's charismatic, at least from what cuts the MAFS editors have shown of her. (I suspect she's gotten the "good" edit.) She also seems to have a pretty good job.

But, as a (former) nurse myself, one who worked with dialysis patients on a regular basis, I have a pretty good understanding of how demanding Keith's 4-nights per week job really is (it may actually be full-time, if he works10-hr. shifts). Either way, that's hard work ...and you always have to be ready for anything to happen, so it's highly stressful too. Plus, Keith is not only a dialysis tech, he said he's also a student trying to get the education he needs to advance his nursing skills to the Dr. level.

And "Queen" Krisitine sometimes acts like he's just a lazy couch potato!! Can't she give the dude a break? I mean, I think it's good that she encourages him to learn to cook. But to demand that he (at least) does "his half" of the cooking?! ...I'm sure Keith is ready to drop from total exhaustion after nights when he works -even if he doesn't have to study or go to school the next morning! 

So if Kristine throws out an ultimatum to Keith that he's not doing 'his half' of the cooking -- I think she's out of line. Marriage is supposed to be "until death," if you're taking it seriously, and even if Keith took a semester off to do MAFS, he'll soon be burning the candle at both ends again --between working as a tech and studying to get that Doctorate!

Is Kristine just one of those TV diva wannabes who found a way to get on TV?!  ...Or does she simply not want to wait for a man to improve himself through education? 

Edited by Crazy Bird Lady · Reason: Keith probably took time off college for MAFS
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19 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I agree but my point is more that people on this forum have been more critical than the population in general that watches this show. I don’t think they are worried because they’ve been together for almost 9 months and are not hiding their relationship. Just look at Jon’s recent twitter posts. Maybe he was defensive at first but that was months ago. If there was some professional ramifications for this for Dr. Jessica I would think that would have already happened.

I wish the show would have sacked her. I think it stinks and  it’s shady as hell, and besides, her input is garbage. I long for the days of Dr. Logan......

I think people on social media aren't critical of Jon and Jessica, because they view this show as entertainment and the "experts" are only there to make things look official, but in reality this show is entertainment.

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40 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

This is interesting:

However, I'm not as big a fan of Kristine the Queen as some other people seem to be. She is reasonably attractive (but has terrible hair!) --and she's charismatic, at least from what cuts the MAFS editors have shown of her. (I suspect she's gotten the "good" edit.) She also seems to have a pretty good job.

But, as a (former) nurse myself, one who worked with dialysis patients on a regular basis, I have a pretty good understanding of how demanding Keith's 4-days per week job really is. It's hard work ...and you always have to be ready for anything to happen, so it's stressful too. Keith is not only a dialysis tech, he is also a student trying to get the education he needs to advance his nursing skills to the Dr. Level.

And "Queen" Krisitine sometimes acts like he's a lazy couch potato!! Can't she give the dude a break? I mean, I think it's good that she encourages him to learn to cook. But to demand that he (at least) does "his half" of the cooking?! ...I'm sure Keith is ready to drop from total exhaustion on days when he works and goes to school -but he still has to study! 

So if it turns out Kristine really throws a hissy fit at Keith about his 'not cooking enough' -- I say she's out of line. Marriage is supposed to be "until death," if you're taking it seriously.

Is Kristine just one of those TV diva wannabes who found a way to get on TV?! 

Is Keith in nursing school or is he just doing prereqs right now? Because I question how he can be in nursing school and be able to go on the honeymoon, the date shown on the picture during Stephanie and A.J's anniversary scenes, suggests the weddings were in early September when fall semester would have been underway already. Nursing school is intense, to the point that most tell students flat out they need to devote a lot of time to studying in order to pass the tests. And most nursing schools make the exams hard because they want their students to have a high pass rate for the NCLEX. So I question how Keith can have the time for nursing school, his job, and have time for a new relationship. 

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3 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

Is Keith in nursing school or is he just doing prereqs right now? Because I question how he can be in nursing school and be able to go on the honeymoon, the date shown on the picture during Stephanie and A.J's anniversary scenes, suggests the weddings were in early September when fall semester would have been underway already. Nursing school is intense, to the point that most tell students flat out they need to devote a lot of time to studying in order to pass the tests. And most nursing schools make the exams hard because they want their students to have a high pass rate for the NCLEX. So I question how Keith can have the time for nursing school, his job, and have time for a new relationship. 

THIS. I haven't seen a nursing school that would be okay with a student missing clinicals because the student is getting married and going on a honeymoon. Nope. 

The joint mini-moon in next week's episode looks like some production-engineered mess to maximize the drama. It almost makes AJ's beef with production seem legitimate.

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15 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

Is Keith in nursing school or is he just doing prereqs right now? Because I question how he can be in nursing school and be able to go on the honeymoon...  the weddings were... when fall semester would have been underway already. Nursing school is intense, to the point that most tell students flat out they need to devote a lot of time to studying in order to pass the tests. And most nursing schools make the exams hard because they want their students to have a high pass rate for the NCLEX. So I question how Keith can have the time for nursing school, his job, and have time for a new relationship. 

I know. I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I can only assume that he probably took a semester off from school for MAFS, and was just working part-time doing dialysis while the show was filmed. Because you are right-- I don't think he could have been doing both. He could still be taking some of the required classes he'll need-- classes that aren't unique to his 'advanced nursing' program (maybe microbiology?) -- but Keith still would have had to get a semester off.

Edited by Crazy Bird Lady
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The group second honeymoon just makes the show look cheap. Given how much the cast seems to dislike Luke, that may have been part of A.J.'s issue. 

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52 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

The group second honeymoon just makes the show look cheap. Given how much the cast seems to dislike Luke, that may have been part of A.J.'s issue. 

I agree.  And what's up with that hideous room in the preview?  Some second honeymoon!  I'm not a fan of such producer induced fuckery.  I don't doubt that AJ has a legitimate beef with production even though his reactions are OTT.  He seems to get wound up over not much in general, but I have some sympathy for him when it comes to this.

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8 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

The group second honeymoon just makes the show look cheap. Given how much the cast seems to dislike Luke, that may have been part of A.J.'s issue. 

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I agree.  And what's up with that hideous room in the preview?  Some second honeymoon!  I'm not a fan of such producer induced fuckery.  I don't doubt that AJ has a legitimate beef with production even though his reactions are OTT.  He seems to get wound up over not much in general, but I have some sympathy for him when it comes to this.

Wow. So AJ may have had a point in being wary of producer interference. Too bad the message got lost during his "intense" conversation with Dr. Jessica.

I wonder where they sent the couples for this mini-moon - one of the Pennsylvania state parks?

I'm going to leave this tweet right here:

This is interesting speculation:

 
 
Anthony cracks me up!
Edited by discoprincessthe2
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48 minutes ago, discoprincessthe2 said:

Wow. So AJ may have had a point in being wary of producer interference. Too bad the message got lost during his "intense" conversation with Dr. Jessica.

I wonder where they sent the couples for this mini-moon - one of the Pennsylvania state parks?

I'm going to leave this tweet right here:

This is interesting speculation:

 
 
Anthony cracks me up!

Jon's tweet just confirms my opinion that he is a jerk. The show gave him a ridiculously nice edit, pays his girlfriend a salary, but he wants to act like he is somehow better than it all.

I have doubts about the info coming from the Luke source.  Luke's cruelty hasn't just been directed at Kate, he has also directed it at both Keith and A.J. While A.J. is OTT, Keith is not. I have a lot of criticism regarding Keith but Luke's comment claiming he had a drinking problem came from nowhere and was once again without evidence. 

I have a sibling who is an alcoholic and one of their common defenses is to attack anyone else who has a drink. Luke may or may not have a drinking problem, but his constant deflection and pointing out how other people drink or how much they drink is a red flag to me. 

Did production decide on a group second honeymoon so that Luke could insult the rest of the cast? He hasn't had the opportunity to declare that Will, Jasmine, Kristine, and Stephanie all have  drinking problems yet. 

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That's so sad (not) that Puke's mother is not happy with the edit he is getting. The fact that we could read his face from Day 1 and his behavior and reactions at the wedding have nothing to do with the edit. And, if he didn't do or say it, they wouldn't have it for the clips. Maybe they put a lot of things together to make it look bad (did I say maybe?). For example, in the preview, we saw Steph packing her suitcase with a voice over saying she has had it, but when the show is on, she is packing for a business trip!

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was just working part-time doing dialysis while the show was filmed

At some point Kristine said he works four nights a week. I'm thinking he works four, ten-hour shifts which is full-time. Or he could do three 12's (which are common in hospitals) and though it's 36 hours instead of 40, that's also considered full time.

Quote

Did production decide on a group second honeymoon so that Luke could insult the rest of the cast? He hasn't had the opportunity to declare that Will, Jasmine, Kristine, and Stephanie all have  drinking problems yet. 

I think yes. They put everyone in close quarters to stir up drama. Everyone hates Luke. Even if you like AJ to start, being in a confined space with him for any length of time, much less in a situation that pisses him off, is going to create conflict. Kate has to watch all the other, happier, couples be lovey-dovey right in front of her. I'm sure the producers end up with enough conflict for all sorts of storylines.

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I mentioned Keith's work in an earlier thread, but then I re-edited it to include your (very insightful) point about 10-hr. shifts. It does seem logical that if Keith is in an 'advanced education' nursing program designed to allow its participants to continue working, they might be 10-hr. shifts.

33 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

At some point Kristine said he works four nights a week. I'm thinking he works four, ten-hour shifts which is full-time. Or he could do three 12's (which are common in hospitals) and though it's 36 hours instead of 40, that's also considered full time. 

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There was a recent picture of Kate on another forum and she had cut her hair. She looked great, and happy so maybe she got out!

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Dr. Jessica has an new instagram post up about gaslighting. She is also says that there is way more experts talking to the couples we don;t see and she cares more about the couples well being then then footage for a show. Is this damage control or is she really upset?

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22 hours ago, Retired at last said:

That's so sad (not) that Puke's mother is not happy with the edit he is getting. The fact that we could read his face from Day 1 and his behavior and reactions at the wedding have nothing to do with the edit. And, if he didn't do or say it, they wouldn't have it for the clips. Maybe they put a lot of things together to make it look bad (did I say maybe?). For example, in the preview, we saw Steph packing her suitcase with a voice over saying she has had it, but when the show is on, she is packing for a business trip!

I can't stand Puke too, but I have wondered since day 1 whether his "repulsed and dead inside" comment after kissing Kate was made in the context of her smoking.  When I was very young I smoked (back then a lot of people did) but every now and then I'd meet a guy that didn't want to date a smoker because he "didn't enjoy kissing someone that tasted like a dirty ashtray".    This was actually a common expression.  Now mind you, these were NOT guys I knew well or even dated, so I just shrugged it off.  But Luke doesn't get excused for his comment because of the relationship he has with her.  You just DON'T say to a woman you're hoping to get closer to that kissing her makes you feel repulsed and dead inside under ANY circumstances, period.  The fact that he chose the most hurtful way possible to make his feelings known is the issue, and shows him for the creep that he is.  The fact that his comment might have been taken out of context doesn't lessen its nastiness.

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22 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I think yes. They put everyone in close quarters to stir up drama. Everyone hates Luke. Even if you like AJ to start, being in a confined space with him for any length of time, much less in a situation that pisses him off, is going to create conflict. Kate has to watch all the other, happier, couples be lovey-dovey right in front of her. I'm sure the producers end up with enough conflict for all sorts of storylines.

You are absolutely right. I freaking HATE this. This isn’t a second honeymoon- it’s a forced vacation with semi-strangers. This has nothing to do with this show. They shouldn’t have to do this. This is the type of thing that will make me dump this show. It’s about if arranged marriages can work out, not if sets of arranged marriages can become friends. It’s totally stupid. I guess since they got an upgraded actual honeymoon they are getting a downgraded second honeymoon? Because I would be totally pissed if I was them....

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3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I can't stand Puke too, but I have wondered since day 1 whether his "repulsed and dead inside" comment after kissing Kate was made in the context of her smoking.  When I was very young I smoked (back then a lot of people did) but every now and then I'd meet a guy that didn't want to date a smoker because he "didn't enjoy kissing someone that tasted like a dirty ashtray".    This was actually a common expression.  Now mind you, these were NOT guys I knew well or even dated, so I just shrugged it off.  But Luke doesn't get excused for his comment because of the relationship he has with her.  You just DON'T say to a woman you're hoping to get closer to that kissing her makes you feel repulsed and dead inside under ANY circumstances, period.  The fact that he chose the most hurtful way possible to make his feelings known is the issue, and shows him for the creep that he is.  The fact that his comment might have been taken out of context doesn't lessen its nastiness.

I wonder how much Kate smokes or smoked. In the episode where it came up she said it was only occasional social smoking and that she would quit. It has since not come up again on the show. Part of me feels like if she had continued to smoke during the time on the show it would have come up again by now and Luke's lies about her drinking might not have happened because he thought the smoking would be his out but then she quit, so he had to find something else to say about her.

As a non-smoker I can tell pretty quickly if someone smokes because I can smell it on their hair and clothes. Smoke smell bothers me a lot to the point where I have had difficulty breathing just from the strong scent on someone's clothing or hair, so I would not even be able to kiss a smoker. However, I also would not tell them I felt repulsed and dead inside because that comment is cruel, unnecessary, and immature. But frankly if Kate smoked that much, the producers should have picked up on her dishonesty about smoking during casting. 

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21 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

I wonder how much Kate smokes or smoked. In the episode where it came up she said it was only occasional social smoking and that she would quit. It has since not come up again on the show. Part of me feels like if she had continued to smoke during the time on the show it would have come up again by now and Luke's lies about her drinking might not have happened because he thought the smoking would be his out but then she quit, so he had to find something else to say about her.

As a non-smoker I can tell pretty quickly if someone smokes because I can smell it on their hair and clothes. Smoke smell bothers me a lot to the point where I have had difficulty breathing just from the strong scent on someone's clothing or hair, so I would not even be able to kiss a smoker. However, I also would not tell them I felt repulsed and dead inside because that comment is cruel, unnecessary, and immature. But frankly if Kate smoked that much, the producers should have picked up on her dishonesty about smoking during casting. 

As an ex-smoker for over 30 years I too can quickly tell if someone smokes and it bothers me a lot too.  I think we all know that both the smoking and drinking are obvious excuses to deflect from the REAL reason Puke is not into Kate, which we can speculate about forever.  Plus, if Kate sensed that he really liked her she would most likely have no problem taking his problems with both seriously.  She knows both are non-issues and he's just trying to pin stuff on her to make everything look like her fault so she's not humoring him, to her credit.

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Luke isn't into Kate, period.  As for his comment about feeling "repulsed and dead inside," it's cruel, but sadly today it's not unusual, just another version of "keeping it real."

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I can't stand Jasmine.  She is really coming across as spoiled and self entitled.  My money is my money and your money is my money.  And I cannot stand it when she says "axed", aka. "Let me axed you a question?"  It's not a "X", it's a "S"!

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3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Luke isn't into Kate, period.  As for his comment about feeling "repulsed and dead inside," it's cruel, but sadly today it's not unusual, just another version of "keeping it real."

There's a big difference between "keeping it real" and being unnecessarily cruel, and this goes way over the line into cruel by any halfway decent person's standards, even today, if you ask me.  I doubt even Sam at her worst would have ever uttered something so vile.

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On 3/1/2019 at 2:41 PM, Neurochick said:

The problem with this show is that many of the participants say they want to get married, but deep down they don't.  

I don't get this comment.  I'm not scared of any of these "experts" so I don't see how he's scary.  He's not a person whose advice I'd take.  

Pastor Cal seems like a nice man.  I’m sure I’d love to chat amd laugh with him. How could anyone be scared of him as he’s presented on the show.

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On 3/7/2019 at 3:47 PM, rl27rl said:

I can't stand Jasmine.  She is really coming across as spoiled and self entitled.  My money is my money and your money is my money.  And I cannot stand it when she says "axed", aka. "Let me axed you a question?"  It's not a "X", it's a "S"!

Different communities have different accents.  I don’t think it has anything to do with her character.  I like both Jasmine and Will. I just don’t like them together. 

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On 2/27/2019 at 12:26 AM, Yeah No said:

It's really just a projection of his own self-hate.  His false hipster identity can't accept himself as a boring "white bread" kind of guy so he has to hang out with people that confirm what he wants to be and fears he is not.

He's not a 'true' hipster, he reminds me of those 'hipsters' who are really free because they belong to a serious religion. Je looks like many of the single morman guys I see on their trips overseas. Something isn't clicking.

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On 3/7/2019 at 7:38 PM, Stinamaia said:

Pastor Cal seems like a nice man.  I’m sure I’d love to chat amd laugh with him. How could anyone be scared of him as he’s presented on the show.

Since I said it, please let me try ONE MORE TIME to explain why I find him and his expert cohorts "scary".  

They are scary because they have the power to make someone like Kate stay right where they want her, despite the cruel intentions of the husband they CHOSE for her.  Rather than admit they are wrong, they continue to verbally barf out worthless platitudes like the fools they are and just watch this emotional train wreck continue.  

The Pastor Cal's out there need to be viewed with a skeptical eye, because they are supposed to be spiritual leaders.   I have seen very little actual spiritual guidance from him, ever. 

Do they like it when Luke continues on with his abuse?  Why is it okay?  Why is it allowed?  When do they say enough is enough and to hell with the ratings?   If Kate is mamby pamby enough to stay, then an expert should have enough common sense to get her away from that jackass and just. say. no. more.   

So, people can like Pastor Cal or Dr. Pepper.  Or Dr. Jessica till the cows come home.   I remain unimpressed, tyvm.  

Edited by Claire Voyant
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The group mini-moons just remind me of something Pastor Cal said earlier in the season, I think to Jasmine and Will, about how it is Married at First Sight and not Make a Friend a First Sight. Obviously not since a group mini-moon is not going to encourage much romance unless they are trying to turn it into a swingers thing. And even that would be more about lust than romance. 

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I wonder if this is true.

On 3/9/2019 at 12:46 PM, Claire Voyant said:

They are scary because they have the power to make someone like Kate stay right where they want her, despite the cruel intentions of the husband they CHOSE for her.  Rather than admit they are wrong, they continue to verbally barf out worthless platitudes like the fools they are and just watch this emotional train wreck continue.  

I really don't think anybody has that power, unless someone is brainwashed from the beginning, so you may be right.

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56 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Oh, I see I’m gonna laugh my ass off tonight. 

ETA - If Luke has punched AJ in the face I would have applauded him. 

Edited by Soup333

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A.J. will have his full assholery on display tonight, but Luke won't look any better for it.

Luke still has no business questioning anyone's motives or commenting on anyone else's behavior.

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2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I wonder if this is true.

I really don't think anybody has that power, unless someone is brainwashed from the beginning, so you may be right.

AJ has bothered me from the get go.  I am not fond of petulance and quick-on-the-trigger temper tantrums from anyone.  Always a red flag. 

In your link they asked for comments on whether we think Stephanie is in any danger or whatever.  Hell, yeah she's in trouble!   If he's that impulsive with a kabillion people viewing his behavior, what's he gonna be like when there's nobody around to check  him? 

Suffice it to say I am less than impressed with the experts.   They have shown extreme incompetence and lackluster effort when it comes to their treatment  of the mental health of what appear to be their own personal lab rats.   Me thinks their Hippocratic oath is more like a hypocritical one.   Just show them the $$$. 

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4 minutes ago, Claire Voyant said:

Suffice it to say I am less than impressed with the experts.   They have shown extreme incompetence and lackluster effort when it comes to their treatment  of the mental health of what appear to be their own personal lab rats.   Me thinks their Hippocratic oath is more like a hypocritical one.   Just show them the $$$. 

I think only physicians take a Hippocratic Oath. 

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5 minutes ago, Claire Voyant said:

Suffice it to say I am less than impressed with the experts.   They have shown extreme incompetence and lackluster effort when it comes to their treatment  of the mental health of what appear to be their own personal lab rats.   Me thinks their Hippocratic oath is more like a hypocritical one.   Just show them the $$$. 

You have a point, but remember this is a show.  No matter what they say, it's not an experiment, it's not science; it's a show.  And shows are meant to get ratings.  The experts shouldn't even call themselves that, they know what this is and they know what they're doing.

In the first season of Big Brother in the US, they allowed the public to vote people off the show.  In the US, people voted people who weren't too stable; and when they were all gone, folks complained the show was boring, so they changed the rules the next season, the public didn't get to vote people off.  Just seeing people sitting around, quietly working together isn't something many people want to watch on TV.  

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 Kate should say that forking Puke was like eating a dirt sandwich... It's a sammy but a yucky one

MAFS has themselves another Miami situation... new Nick and new Sonia not wanting to document that they've been having sexy time on the downlow....

Who is more ashamed?

Kate for not blurting it out sooner...or Puke for asking her to keep it a secret...

Both are odious.

Puke is going to say that he is a gentleman ...he doesn't fornicate and tell...

 Kate is tired of being his dirty secret....

Edited by humbleopinion
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And I am done having any feelings of empathy for Kate. Sure, he probably did it out of pity and to stop her from asking, but I think the whole things is disgusting. No one else has been keeping this a secret and while Luke is already such a low life and it would be difficult to like him less, Kate has been playing the "feel sorry for me" card and that game is over. 

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2 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

Supposedly they had sex four or five times.

🤢 

Oh, Kate.  What a sad, silly, little airhead.  The elevator doesn't even go NEAR the top, does it?  Not an ounce of self-esteem or pride to be found anywhere. 

She is going to be someone's punching bag forever if she doesn't find herself a REAL therapist and perhaps someday a REAL man.  

The whole thing is sick, sick, sick.  And those faux experts just sit there and watch it happen, wishing they could "help".   🙄 I know it's only a show, but  it's been truly disturbing to watch as this season unfolded.   

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Watched the First Look for the next episode. Why on earth did Kate decide to tell Luke about telling the secret while they are TRAPPED in a car? If she didn't want to tell him during the mini-moon, at least wait until they're back home where they can get away from each other afterwards!

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Why on earth did Kate decide to tell Luke about telling the secret while they are TRAPPED in a car? 

Avoiding eye contact?

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Kate knew/knows exactly what she was doing when she made that "dramatic" confession to Dr. Pepper.  This is just another way of her drumming up sympathy for....what?  A reality show?  I don't know what she wants but I think she's looking for some kind of payoff as a result of being on this show.  

Luke is a straight up ass, but I think Kate is far more manipulative that he could ever dream of being.  He could take lessons from her.

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5 hours ago, discoprincessthe2 said:
 

Sonia and Anthony are telling it like it is. I wonder if Sonia will reach out to Kate after the season ends. Her situation with Nick was similar.

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2 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

Sonia and Anthony are telling it like it is. I wonder if Sonia will reach out to Kate after the season ends. Her situation with Nick was similar.

I don't know if Sonia's was really the same as Kate (Didn't Nick sleep wth Sonia once and she asked to keep it quiet and he respected her), but Sonia being a social worker and having so much in common should be able to help more then the experts.

Anthony is right, 3 other couples at different stages in marriage in that tiny airbnb could not be fun! 

I tried reading another post on SM, but facebook, and now instragram are not working for me and I know my internet is working fine. I am not big on facebook, just use it to look at local people selling stuff and peak at a few reality pages, is it down for everyone? or just me?

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32 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

I tried reading another post on SM, but facebook, and now instragram are not working for me and I know my internet is working fine. I am not big on facebook, just use it to look at local people selling stuff and peak at a few reality pages, is it down for everyone? or just me?

It's not just you. They're having some problems worldwide w/ facebook, instagram & whatsapp.

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3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Kate knew/knows exactly what she was doing when she made that "dramatic" confession to Dr. Pepper.  This is just another way of her drumming up sympathy for....what?  A reality show?  I don't know what she wants but I think she's looking for some kind of payoff as a result of being on this show.  

Luke is a straight up ass, but I think Kate is far more manipulative that he could ever dream of being.  He could take lessons from her.

Really? I don’t see that at all. I’m curious about how you think she is manipulating the situation. I know that everyone gets edited per production’s whims but we’ve seen Luke say and do plenty of hurtful things and he’s owned up to the ones that are reported but not shown on camera. There’s so much evidence that he’s a manipulative gaslighter. I’m not necessarily convinced that Kate is a sweet, naive, innocent little flower but I can’t see her anywhere near as nasty and manipulative as Luke.

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