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The Vow

Door County Cherry

By Door County Cherry
in HBO Documentaries

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Hanahope

Hanahope

I just finished the Vow and just started Seduced, and agree with most everyone else here.  The Vow I suppose was an ok introduction to Nxivm and at least how it started, but Seduced shows how it was never a good thing.

Of course, the moment it started talking about EM's, I'm thinking oh, that's auditing from Scientology.  and in Seduced, they discuss how Nancy taught NLP, a way of speaking that relaxes people, gets them to talk about things more easily.  Seriously people, psychological therapy is a lot cheaper than a whole bunch of $5,000 five day intensives, and performed by someone with an actual college/medical degree instead of an actor.

As for other cults, there are all sorts that can draw in different people.  there's the psychobabble ones like Scientology (which at least keeps itself semi-legal because there's no sex slaves), the religious ones like the Moonies, the science ones like Theranos, and the political ones like a certain red capped group and leader (think about it and the parallels - though more are shown in Seduced).  

Lauren Saltzman got off so easy, even late cooperation brings benefits, I guess.  I do hope that the second season goes more into the details of the crimes, the racketeering and all.  And how stupid/egotistical could KR be but to run another MLM in NY, after the Consumer Buyline fallout.  

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nilyank
nilyank

I just want to punch Keith in the face repeatedly every single time he spoke his bullshit. And you could see all his misogyny and his hangups about women and himself. He actually believed all the crap

Pop Tart
Pop Tart

I think it's also in the structures of how these things work. They give you a couple really feel good, confidence-boosting wins in the beginning and see how you respond to that. If you don't come back

kitmerlot1213
kitmerlot1213

I did love Mark's turning around and using Raniere's cult double speak against him:  "Keith, I think you're still blocking what I'm saying."  That was gorgeous.   I know it enrages me when cults

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MicheleinPhilly

MicheleinPhilly

15 hours ago, DanaK said:

Part 2 premieres October 17. The link includes the trailer http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news/2022/08/29/hbo-original-documentary-series-the-vow-part-two-debuts-october-17-381010/20220829hbo02/

Meh. I don't know if I have it in me to watch this. It was fine and all when I literally couldn't leave the house because of lockdowns and such, but I may be over it. 

And seeing Sarah and Mark again...🙄

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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)
1 hour ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

Meh. I don't know if I have it in me to watch this. It was fine and all when I literally couldn't leave the house because of lockdowns and such, but I may be over it. 

And seeing Sarah and Mark again...🙄

For me, the best and most riveting parts of Part 1 were hearing from former insiders (other than Sarah and Mark and the other two) who had suffered from NXIVM's abuse. If we hear from actual insiders (or former now) for Part 2, I think it could be very interesting, even if Keith spouts gibberish and we get artsy fartsy film footage from Mark again. And it's 6 episodes vs 9 this time

Edited by DanaK
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merylinkid

merylinkid

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

For me, the best and most riveting parts of Part 1 were hearing from former insiders (other than Sarah and Mark and the other two) who had suffered from NXIVM's abuse. If we hear from actual insiders (or former now) for Part 2, I think it could be very interesting, even if Keith spouts gibberish and we get artsy fartsy film footage from Mark again. And it's 6 episodes vs 9 this time

Yeah I don't need to see Sarah showing off her brand again.    While Catherine Oxenberg looks concerned.

It was just boring.   All "What the fuck am I doing" while showing no introspection about WHY they got there and how at all.    

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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)
On 8/31/2022 at 9:09 AM, luckyroll3 said:

I don't know if I'm committed to watching either (although I surely did enter it on my TV calendar! 😂), but it kinda looked from the preview like they maybe got interviews with Nancy, and if they did I ALLLLLLL in!

Definitely one or more interviews with Nance

Press release http://thefutoncritic.com/news/2022/09/22/hbo-original-documentary-series-the-vow-part-two-debuts-october-17-144111/20220922hbo02/

Official trailer for Part 2

Edited by DanaK
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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)

First episode of Part 2:

Yikes at that lead defense attorney and him defending DOS as a female empowerment group

Hearing from some in the group who still defend Keith and the company shows the hold he still has over them

Some interesting disturbing stuff about Keith from former insiders, along with various video and audio of Keith saying stuff (a lot of it nonsense). Interesting that Keith thought Nancy Salzman was replaceable early on, but then she got better with what she was doing

Ha, teasing the interview with Nancy, which we’ll hopefully get next episode

This episode was a little too sprawling for me to fully embrace it, but I guess they had a lot to tell. Hopefully it tightens up some in subsequent episodes

Edited by DanaK
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Andyourlittledog2

Andyourlittledog2

I really hope they get into Keith's work in Mexico and how he had underage teenage girls flown to NY to act as his servants and how one or more were locked up in a room and there was sex with them etc. It's something I'd like to see more light shed on but usually they only talk about what happened with the very well off/wealthy women (and men) disciples he conned in the US.  But he had a whole thing going on in Mexico.

I liked this first season two episode but it is hard listening to his defenders, especially the defense attorney.

I was in a cult for sixteen years starting at age fifteen and I know it is difficult to overcome the us versus them aspect of it all. Whatever arguments outsiders make you have already learned to resist and counter so it's just water off a duck's back. Having attorneys reinforce that is not helpful to the process of finding yourself again. 

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izabella

izabella

37 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I really hope they get into Keith's work in Mexico and how he had underage teenage girls flown to NY to act as his servants and how one or more were locked up in a room and there was sex with them etc. It's something I'd like to see more light shed on but usually they only talk about what happened with the very well off/wealthy women (and men) disciples he conned in the US.  But he had a whole thing going on in Mexico.

I agree.  We're getting lots of Keith pontificating again, and too much what feels like promotion of the program, but not much on all those federal charges.

I'm reminded of being irritated that the first part seemed to want to portray Keith's program as a legitimate self-help program instead of a pyramid scheme, because it still feels like that.  No matter how "good" Nancy became at presenting the jargon, she was still always just conning the marks into giving her and Keith their money and services.  The program only existed for that purpose, not to help anyone.

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Libby

Libby

(edited)

I watched the 1st episode of season 2 and then went back and watched season 1.

I think that this crazy man was able to take advantage of these people because they were extremely self involved. They were so self indulgent that he just swooped in and took advantage of that trait in them. They think that their motives were to improve the world, but I think that they just had an over inflated view of themselves.

They all would have been better off if they just put their heads down and went to work everyday instead of looking to this guy to support their illusions of grandeur.

They ended up in over their head with a crazy man, which I sympathize with. However, they did it to themselves because they were way too self absorbed.

Edited by Libby
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Door County Cherry

Door County Cherry

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I thought it was interesting for the documentary to interview people who still supported Keith.  I hope we follow them as the trial goes on. I wonder if any of them have changed their minds.

But what really struck me is the old footage of Alison and Nancy with Keith.  I had forgotten how enamored they were with him.  Especially Alison. 

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

14 hours ago, Libby said:

I watched the 1st episode of season 2 and then went back and watched season 1.

I think that this crazy man was able to take advantage of these people because they were extremely self involved. They were so self indulgent that he just swooped in and took advantage of that trait in them. They think that their motives were to improve the world, but I think that they just had an over inflated view of themselves.

They all would have been better off if they just put their heads down and went to work everyday instead of looking to this guy to support their illusions of grandeur.

They ended up in over their head with a crazy man, which I sympathize with. However, they did it to themselves because they were way too self absorbed.

Yes, that's what I got from that young Black woman (don't know name) who is still a supporter.  She kept saying she joined because she wanted to be the "best."  The whole idea of self improvement is such nonsense.  Going back decades to other cults like EST, they were always about self improvement, but the leaders actually made you feel bad about yourself.  She was just vulnerable.  Sad. 

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Armchair Critic

Armchair Critic

They showed Nancy looking at Keith like she was enthralled with him. He was sleeping with her daughter, had he slept with her too?

Some of the women are heavier since they left the cult, I guess now they can eat since they don't have to stay super thin for Keith.

I dress better than the Seagram's heiress and I am no fashion model.

Interesting they will have an interview with Nancy but will she just spout a bunch of NXIVM platitudes?

I don't think any of them has really been totally honest, especially Mark and Sarah. They both were in the cult too long, I am skeptical of both of them, they both seem to be self serving and are still holding back on some truths.

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violet and green

violet and green

(edited)

I'm so glad this is back for a second season. I find it all so fascinating. It's easy to judge these people for getting sucked in, but that is just as much an "us" versus "them" notion as cult leaders like to propagate, I think. Am really looking forward to hearing what Nancy Salzman says.

Edited by violet and green
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Armchair Critic

Armchair Critic

(edited)

Starting episode 2... I think from now on I will skip the intro music, that loud aaaaah during it made my cat look. 😅

Do you think Keith kept his sexual hijinks away from Nancy so she was oblivious? Or did she know what he was doing but overlooked it because she believed in their cause? 

I can see how she is convincing, I want to believe she really meant well but then I remember that she is a master at manipulating people's minds.

Wasn't it actually Nippy's wife Sarah who was part of the secret group and was blackmailing them with their "collateral"? I think Mark and Sarah were sweating it because they were worried about how much they were complicit was going to come out.

Maybe Nancy should be blaming her daughter Lauren too because she was the leader of the women's secret cult. Also she was sleeping with Keith.

Edited by Armchair Critic
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DanaK

DanaK

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Starting episode 2... I think from now on I will skip the intro music, that loud aaaaah during it made my cat look. 😅

Do you think Keith kept his sexual hijinks away from Nancy so she was oblivious? Or did she know what he was doing but overlooked it because she believed in their cause? 

I can see how she is convincing, I want to believe she really meant well but then I remember that she is a master at manipulating people's minds.

Wasn't it actually Nippy's wife Sarah who was part of the secret group and was blackmailing them with their "collateral"? I think Mark and Sarah were sweating it because they were worried about how much they were complicit was going to come out.

Maybe Nancy should be blaming her daughter Lauren too because she was the leader of the women's secret cult. Also she was sleeping with Keith.

It seems clear to me that Nancy is fooling herself or trying to fool viewers when she says the bad stuff was not part of her business and the business did a lot of good. If you convince people that abuse is something made up or you are the cause of your problems and to tamp down on your fear intuition, it’s ripe for abuse and allows groups like NXIVM to take advantage of you and suck you in

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DanaK

DanaK

Part of the creed of NXIVM that was recited was “There are no ultimate victims; therefore, I will not choose to be a victim”. I mean, holy crap. Sure, you can choose to respond differently to something that happens to you and choose not to wallow in it and therefore become stronger. But that’s different than thinking being a victim is a bad thing or shouldn’t happen. That’s basically telling them it’s their fault and that’s a really bad thing to try to convince people of that, especially women and other disadvantaged groups who have to work against societal harms. As I said in my previous post, it tamps down on that intuition of fear that women especially need to have that tells them they are in a bad situation that they need to get out of. NXIVM teachings certainly sound like Gaslighting 101, which is what happens with most cults (and some corporate teachings too)

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izabella

izabella

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Do you think Keith kept his sexual hijinks away from Nancy so she was oblivious? Or did she know what he was doing but overlooked it because she believed in their cause? 

I can see how she is convincing, I want to believe she really meant well but then I remember that she is a master at manipulating people's minds.

He may have kept the sex cult part away from her.  But she knew he was involved sexually with many of the young, vulnerable women in the group over the years.  Including her own daughter, right?  Isn't Keith the father of Lauren's child?  Maybe I'm misremembering.

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

It seems clear to me that Nancy is fooling herself or trying to fool viewers when she says the bad stuff was not part of her business and the business did a lot of good. If you convince people that abuse is something made up or you are the cause of your problems and to tamp down on your fear intuition, it’s ripe for abuse and allows groups like NXIVM to take advantage of you and suck you in

Also, her business was set up as a pyramid scheme and her program required people to provide blackmail material, so she's definitely trying to fool us.

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DanaK

DanaK

9 minutes ago, izabella said:

He may have kept the sex cult part away from her.  But she knew he was involved sexually with many of the young, vulnerable women in the group over the years.  Including her own daughter, right?  Isn't Keith the father of Lauren's child?  Maybe I'm misremembering.

Also, her business was set up as a pyramid scheme and her program required people to provide blackmail material, so she's definitely trying to fool us.

As I understand it, only DOS required the blackmail material and she was assured by both her daughter and Keith that it was just a women’s group and nothing nefarious was happening there

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Armchair Critic

Armchair Critic

(edited)
29 minutes ago, izabella said:

Isn't Keith the father of Lauren's child? 

There was a woman named Kristin who had Keith's child. But I do remember Keith leading Lauren on saying he would commit to Lauren and have a child with her if she jumped through certain hoops but sounds like he had no intentions of doing it. 

Lauren was the one recruiting slaves for DOS and was with Keith until the end, she was with him in Mexico when he got arrested.

Edited by Armchair Critic
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Door County Cherry

Door County Cherry

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3 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Wasn't it actually Nippy's wife Sarah who was part of the secret group and was blackmailing them with their "collateral"? I think Mark and Sarah were sweating it because they were worried about how much they were complicit was going to come out.

Sarah enrolled people to NXVIM but I don't think she enrolled to DOS. Sarah was invited into the secret group/DOS but I don't think (I can't remember) that she made it to the Master level.  zShe gave collateral and she got branded but wasn't involved sexually with Keith.  I think he probably considered her off limits because she was married to an active male member of the group.  Getting sexually involved with a member's wife would have invited problems sooner. 

But it has been a while since I saw the first part. 

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

Part of the creed of NXIVM that was recited was “There are no ultimate victims; therefore, I will not choose to be a victim”.

And yet didn't Nancy sound like quite the victim in her interview?  Sarah's phone call was horrible!  DOS took down my business.  All I wanted to do was help.  

Then she had the audacity to claim she didn't know why things were going sideways.  Maybe she should have called Sarah back? 

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kathe5133

kathe5133

Nancy is a liar.  It's been said she was sleeping with Keith too, though I doubt she'd admit to that now.  Sarah was angry when she left that message.  If Nancy truly felt that Sarah was like a daughter to her (it's been said she'd said that on more than a few occasions) wouldn't she still want to call her back to see what made her so angry?  Someone doesn't go from trusted friend to enemy based on one angry phone message.  She's lying her ass off.  The only good thing about her lying is perhaps she does feel some shame?  But for the most part, it's an act.

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merylinkid

merylinkid

If someone requires blackmail material from you in order to trust you, you shouldn't trust them.

Pretty sure the main cult required blackmail material too in order to move up the ranks of the cult.   DOS just carried the idea further.   

The women who still believe in Keith and what  he was pedaling are still indoctrinated.   They blame everyone BUT Keith for what happened.   Not sure HOW Keith managed to suck so many people in.   He had no new ideas (including the one that he was somehow special and smarter than everyone else), just spewed out word salads and wasn't all that good looking.   

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izabella

izabella

(edited)
12 minutes ago, javajeanelaine said:

May be sleep deprivation and lack of food got these women to buy into Keith’s word salads?

They were vulnerable to manipulation.  Just seeking out something like this program means they felt some kind of unhappiness and vulnerability in their lives.  Then Keith made them more vulnerable, took all their money, had them provide blackmail material, isolated them from family and friends and told them those people were suppressives and therefore not to be trusted.  He saw them as easy marks and open wallets.

Edited by izabella
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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

9 hours ago, javajeanelaine said:

May be sleep deprivation and lack of food got these women to buy into Keith’s word salads?

9 hours ago, izabella said:

They were vulnerable to manipulation.  Just seeking out something like this program means they felt some kind of unhappiness and vulnerability in their lives.  Then Keith made them more vulnerable, took all their money, had them provide blackmail material, isolated them from family and friends and told them those people were suppressives and therefore not to be trusted.  He saw them as easy marks and open wallets.

But the sleep deprivation and lack of food helped too!

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Cheezwiz

Cheezwiz

I had a hard time watching the first episode, and honestly wanted to turn it off. I can't stand either Mark or Sarah - they seem really self-serving, and I feel like they've used this documentary to cover up their own complicity and misdeeds. I didn't know Sarah had been busy merching herself, so she's even more repugnant to me. As for the rest of the people interviewed in the episode, the entire time I just wanted to scream "GOOD GOD, YOU PEOPLE ARE TOTAL MORONS!!!". Ack, that dazed euphoric look on both Nancy Salzman & Alison Mack's faces in the footage of them speaking with Keith. All for a word-salad spewing dweeb. I will never understand it.

Not sure if I can sit through the rest.

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merylinkid

merylinkid

Okay they were vulnerable to manipulation by why KEITH?   before he took their money and deprived them of food and sleep, and demanded collateral, they had to fall for his line.   The sleep deprivation and lack of food only came AFTER they agreed to follow his "plan."   While you had eaten a good meal and had a good night's sleep he was still a not good looking guy who just talked a lot.   

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luckyroll3

luckyroll3

On 10/24/2022 at 10:48 PM, DanaK said:

It seems clear to me that Nancy is fooling herself or trying to fool viewers when she says the bad stuff was not part of her business and the business did a lot of good. If you convince people that abuse is something made up or you are the cause of your problems and to tamp down on your fear intuition, it’s ripe for abuse and allows groups like NXIVM to take advantage of you and suck you in

This. And even if the 2 programs were completely separate, as she claims (which I don't believe), then she's willfully ignoring that her program was used deliberately as a recruiting ground for DOS and that there are aspects of the program that made the participants, particularly the women, vulnerable to manipulation.

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Cheezwiz

Cheezwiz

5 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Adding to my earlier post about copying Scientology, the blackmail stuff also comes from Scientology.  As I understand it, the info they used to get from the auditing sessions was held over people’s heads as blackmail. 

Yep, he basically ripped off a whole bunch of Scientology's moves and repackaged them into a Corporate success program.

It blows my mind how dim-witted his followers were (and in some cases still are). I still haven't watched Episode 2 with the Salzman interview. I'm finding I don't have the patience I did for the first season of the series.

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