S02.E07: Last Exit to Brooklyn/S02.E08: Better Angels

[Asikus]

37 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

How come John being raped was never addressed? Doe he remember? Not remember? 

No reference to Mary. What happened to the boy they saved in s1. Where is he? John seemed like he was going to adopt him, but clearly he didn't. 

I stopped believing the scene from first season was actually John getting raped. It sure looked like that and the gross cop was also joking about it, but maybe the intention was something else. I don’t know, I prefer to believe that I simply misunderstood. Otherwise it is absurd how unfazed he was by it.

When it comes to Joseph I assume he got accepted into the Kreizler’s Institute. Realistically John couldn’t adopt him because the rumors would surely spread about the boy’s former profession (as the high society folks were hella bored and had a talent for finding out that stuff) and people would probably suspect that John keeps him around for certain ‘purposes’. 

Of course the writers probably just wrote him off as they had no ideas to keep him in the plot. And they didn’t mention Mary as we were supposed to focus on Laszlo’s new ‘hot’ affair 

[ComeWhatMay]

As pointed out upthread, breaking an engagement was a big deal and as an illegitimate kid, Violet had less choice to start with... She and her father would cling to John, still a decent get but who has his own issues as we know, for dear life. 

I think John would try to stay out of cases to stay away from Sara and his albatross family’s pressure to do so would be significant. Sara would try and keep a respectful distance too for her own sake... 

Losing all the writers they did between seasons explains the vanished threads and what not. Have to wonder what the ending would have been like with the original crew all there. 

[Razzberry]

Cons:

I would have liked more on the alienist examining some of these nutcases and their work with the justice system. I think it was a mistake to focus on Sara so heavily, as the actress isn't all that compelling, imo.  The crimes themselves could be brought down a notch and made less sensational.  What's next, toddlers tortured?                    The gangsters with names like Goo Goo and Ding Dong were less frightening than Lazlo's new girlfriend.

Pros:

The actress playing Libby was sensational.  Rosie O'Donnell as Bitsy was a revelation. 😉  Love Ted Levine in anything.   The sets and costumes were great.   My Irish immigrant grandparents lived on Lexington Ave. during that time period, so it was fun to see.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Razzberry

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Rosie O'Donnell as Bitsy was a revelation. 😉 

Ha!

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Love Ted Levine in anything. 

Ditto.

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

 The sets and costumes were great.   My Irish immigrant grandparents lived on Lexington Ave. during that time period, so it was fun to see.

My German immigrant great grandparents had a bakery on 52nd and 6th Ave so I always enjoy seeing turn of the century NYC.  Maybe John popped in there on his day off for a streudel.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Haleth

[tennisgurl]

This season was very Sara centric, and while I like Sara, I wish the show had more of the ensemble feel that last season had. Sara had the connection with the perp, most of the major story-lines involved Sara (with the exception of Laszlo’s thing with the professor) and Sara even got to do the big ending speech. Not that her story was bad or anything, and I liked the connection between Sara and Libby, like Libby was a sort of darker reflection of Sara. Both from upper class families, both had emotionally distant mothers (although Libby's seemed to be a lot worse) and suicidal fathers that they were closer to, both struggle with making connections with people, both are in complicated relationships with men who are devoted to them to the point of putting themselves in danger for them, both have semi repressed anger issues often directed at society, but while Sara did manage to build healthy relationships with other people and channel her issues into helping others, Libby was so damaged that she ended up hurting lots of other people due to her desire to be loved, but being unable to love back in a healthy way. So lots of good stuff there, but it unfortunately meant that everyone else was kind of on the back burner. Even most of Johns plot was about Sara and how much he was in love with her. It would be kind of interesting if each season was focused on a different main character, like the first season was focused on Laszlo, the second on Sara, and the third on John?

Man, Marcus dying was so depressing, that even Byrnes seemed sad about it. I wish that he and Lucious had more to do this season in general, especially since Marcus was going to die. At least Lucious had his subplot with Bitsy, which was quite cute, enough that I wanted to get a bit more of it, like showing them on a date or something. That last scene between them, especially Lucious joking about his glasses before he realized that Marcus had been shot, just killed me with the sads. 

I admit to wanting Sara and John to make it work and being really sad that they seemingly put the last nail into that coffin, and I wish that at least it had been a choice, not that John was basically forced to marry Violet now that she is pregnant. If John chose to be with Violet because he wanted children but Sara would never want them, or something like that, then I think I could handle it a bit more, but doing it like this just seems like a sad, soapy end to this story. Not too surprisingly (because if something bad happens that stops short of actual death, its probably to John) he got probably the least happy ending of the main three. I am glad that he at least is finding meaning and success as a reporter, a job that he really loves, even if it makes his life with his father in law from hell even harder, and that he will get to have children and will get to be a father, something he will certainly be great at, but it sucks that he is going to probably be in a marriage that, while probably polite and decently friendly, will be ultimately loveless, which is pretty crappy for a person who is so empathetic and values connections with people so much. And now that Laszlo is off to Vienna and its implied that he is going to be staying away from Sara for awhile, it makes his life sound rather lonely for the foreseeable future. 

Having them find out that Libby was the killer so early and focusing on the chase to find her and the Vanderbilt baby was both a good and bad thing. We got to spend more time with Libby and see more of what makes her tick, which was really fascinating, and Rosy McEwen was absolutely riveting, being both terrifying and sympathetic. I also liked everyone basically doing a deep dive into this one persons life and trying to figure out what happened to her and how that affects what she is doing, its really fun to see how much work was put into learning about people in a time before information was so readily available, and I love the investigation stuff. It also gave this season a bit of a change up from last season (and most murder mysteries) where you know pretty quickly where they didn't find out who the killer was until much later, and we had more red herrings and what not. On the other hand, it also meant that we had to move quickly past a lot of the others plot points to focus all on Libby without much closure for the other characters and plots. What happened to the Spanish diplomats? Hows the Spanish-American war going? What happened to the scrappy nurse that Bitsy befriended and everyone at the creepy home for unwed mothers/rich guys mistresses? What happened to the mistress who came to Johns engagement party to freak out on the rich guy who knocked her up? Was the kid who accidentally hung himself alright, especially now that Laszlo is leaving? I guess its implied that John will go after Marcos, but I would have liked to see more of that feud and how it played out. Its not like we can get closure for everything, or fix every injustice in New York, but I felt like because we suddenly were focused on Libby, the rest of the plot threads were left dangling. 

It makes sense hearing that they had a different writing staff this season, a lot of stuff from last season was kind of forgotten, the writing itself was a bit less intense, tight, and memorable, and its clear that the new writing staffs favorite character is Sara, hence the heavy focus she got this season. I can kind of get why, as Laszlo kind of reached a good closing point in character growth last season when he forgave his elderly abusive father and John had given up his lazy drunk rich guy ways to be more responsible, while Sara's arc isn't finished yet, but I feel like there was a lot more they could do with the cast, but the current staff wanted to focus on Sara, so they did. And I still dont feel like Sara's arc is finished, especially if we say her arc is that she struggles with connecting with people and pushes them away, she is still doing that up until the very end. She has gotten better, but there is clearly still more work to be done. That all being said, I am still glad we got a second season (even if the end of the first season is where I would have liked to end up again) the acting is still really strong, both from the main cast and the minor and supporting ones, its still very atmospheric with great direction, cinematography, and does a great job at showing this particular time and place, both in the details and in the greater goings on in society, and they do a good job at showing how this society affects the people living in it, from all walks of life. It really does a great job at bringing 1890s New York to life, and if they do have a third season, I will certainly be right there. 

[pezgirl7]

4 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Anyone else wonder who Clara's father was? Like was Libby raped, was it consensual.....I have questions? Was Clara born with issues? Like I have questions.

How come John being raped was never addressed? Doe he remember? Not remember? 

No reference to Mary. What happened to the boy they saved in s1. Where is he? John seemed like he was going to adopt him, but clearly he didn't. 

Libby said men have always hurt her right before she said she came out of prison pregnant, so I'm guessing she was raped in prison.

I personally don't think John was raped. Just because Byrnes made a joke about it doesn't mean it happened. But even if he wasn't, it still seems like it would have been a traumatic experience. But John used to drink a lot, maybe to the point of blacking out, so perhaps being drugged and not remembering what happened isn't that unusual of a circumstance for him.

Joseph! I was hoping to see him this season, but didn't bet on it. I like to think that John is his benefactor, and Joseph is off at school somewhere. It would have been nice to have had a mention of him.

[Haleth]

For anyone who has read the book, was Sara featured more than the other two?  

[Dowel Jones]

I paused the tv just when John had been handed the paper with the headline of the capture, just because I like to read the actual stories if the print is good.  On this one, under the headline of 'Libby Hatch Captured', the article reads "Libby Hatch, murderess and kidnapper, died by her own hand in a police raid...."  I can't believe that was intentional.  Was it just the newspaper's way of saying she gave up?  Curious.

[jenn31]

4 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I personally don't think John was raped. Just because Byrnes made a joke about it doesn't mean it happened. 

Right, I don’t either, and the consensus in forums was that he wasn’t. It was just Byrnes being a prick saying it. 

[goldilocks]

10 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I would have liked more on the alienist examining some of these nutcases and their work with the justice system. I think it was a mistake to focus on Sara so heavily,

I agree. After all, he is the titular character. I found that part interesting last season. We didn’t see nearly enough of him this season, and what we did see was mostly the lackluster new relationship. What a waste of a brilliant actor. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by goldilocks

[goldilocks]

10 hours ago, Razzberry said:

The gangsters with names like Goo Goo and Ding Dong were less frightening than Lazlo's new girlfriend

😂 😂

[Souris]

12 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Possibly, but I think its more likely she came seduced him of her own accord. If she is not pregnant, I could see daddy dearest telling her to tell John she is anyway. Personally, I feel like I don't understand why Vi wanted him so badly when it was clear he was in love with another woman. 

As Hearst’s apparently “open secret” illegitimate daughter, she didn’t have many society options. Rich society guys would want a wife with “pure” society pedigree, so she was out of luck there. John needed her money (provided by Hearst as her “godfather”). She needed his society name. A classic marriage of convenience, in much the same way so many rich U.S. industrial heiresses went to England and wed cash-strapped Lords. Hearst was correct that it’s a transactional match.

[Vermicious Knid]

I paused on the the news article also, that said Libby died by her own hand. Two theories about the end; they put out she's dead and they are just going to let her get lost and rot in prison. Or Sara was just imagining Libby in the cell. Things looked pretty deserted.

[Asikus]

16 hours ago, Razzberry said:

 The gangsters with names like Goo Goo and Ding Dong were less frightening than Lazlo's new girlfriend

 

To be fair she was pretty damn frightening 😂

[paigow]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:10 AM, LadyChaos said:

Personally, I feel like I don't understand why Vi wanted him so badly

She is the equivalent of Jon Snow. Marginalized, despite occupying the upper strata of society. Legally joining  "House Moore" would legitimize her.

Edited August 13, 2020 by paigow

[LadyChaos]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

She is the equivalent of Jon Snow. Marginalized, despite occupying the upper strata of society. Legally joining  "House Moore" would legitimize her.

Do we know she was born out of wedlock? I know Hearst is her real father, but was her mother married at the time. She may have grown up knowing the Hearst was her father and it's clear it was an open secret. However I find it hard to believe she would even be allowed in those circles if her mother wasn't married at the time of the conception. Back then unwed woman of society didn't keep their babies, they were quietly sent off to lying in hospitals before they showed and came back months later without a child.

I know she talks about her illegitimacy with John, but to me the way she talks about it more like 'to know who your real parent is and to not be able to claim it, but also everyone knowing who your real father is undermines her claim on the man who is on the birth certificate.'

[paigow]

On 8/12/2020 at 3:31 AM, Vermicious Knid said:

I paused on the the news article also, that said Libby died by her own hand. Two theories about the end; they put out she's dead and they are just going to let her get lost and rot in prison. Or Sara was just imagining Libby in the cell. Things looked pretty deserted.

The suicide is more likely  a cover story for

• Byrnes rage-killing Libby after taking her into custody

Why would any D.A. create a conspiracy to bury/ punt a slam dunk capital case?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Do we know she was born out of wedlock?

Has to be yes..Otherwise, Hearst and her mother would have been married and the charade would be unnecessary.

• He paid one of his lackeys to marry the mother, name Hearst as godfather, then disappear.
• Hearst needed to soften his public persona and made sure the world knows how well he treats "non-blood relations"

[bosawks]

Laszlo gets a European adventure!

Sarah at least gets to keep one of her one true loves, her agency.

And John gets............the Hearsts.

Ouch.

[Tachi Rocinante]

I was half expecting Marcus to sit up and describe the new fabric he was working on that could stop projectiles. (Bullet-proof vests were being experimented with around this time.)

[AshBlue]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:31 PM, Haleth said:

For anyone who has read the book, was Sara featured more than the other two?  

The book was so different than the tv show, I can hardly explain.  I would say Sara was featured equally with the rest of the cast.  The book was actually narrated by Stevie, and he was almost non-existent in the show.  I enjoyed the show for what it was, but only after letting go of my expectations of what was going to happen and enjoying the new plot as it was.

 

I can't forgive them for killing off Marcus, though. :(  And yes, Rosie McEwen was amazing.

[Roxie]

13 hours ago, AshBlue said:

I can't forgive them for killing off Marcus, though. 😞 And yes, Rosie McEwen was amazing.

Agreed 100% on both counts.  I hope, at least, that Lucius and Bitsy had a happy ending. (Pun intended!)

[Terrafamilia]

Even though I could see it coming as soon as he cornered Libby without backup, I was unexpectedly saddened by Doyle's death.

This show has certainly shown exactly why a madwoman with a knife is a lot scarier than a hoodlum with a gun.

[TrininisaScorp]

Doyle was a terrible asshole, but I liked him as a continued foil and supporting character.  I didn't care for him dying.

Did Douglas Smith get another project, or was it just another Mary situation?  I thought he was going to make it, but that last scene between the brothers and the sitting shiva scenes were VERY well done. 

I hope this comes back for a season 3.  It was different that season 1, but no less compelling, IMO.  I want to see what happens to Lazlo (and hopefully, darling Bruhl gets more to do), Sara, John, and the supporting characters.  I did not assume that Sara and John would actually end up together, but the reasoning did not make my heart break less.  John really always gets the shit end of the stick.  

I know Bruhl is needed for Barron Zemo on Falcon & Winter Soldier and that production should be starting up again soon.  I imagine if there is a next season, it will not be for a while.  This is a little like Sherlock with the 3 leads having scheduling conflicts and such. 

[Morrigan2575]

13 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

I know Bruhl is needed for Barron Zemo on Falcon & Winter Soldier and that production should be starting up again soon. 

I either did not know that or totally forgot about it but, now I'm even more excited for Falcon and Winter Soldier

[Tachi Rocinante]

What happened to Roose Bolton?  Did I miss something?

[pezgirl7]

3 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

What happened to Roose Bolton?  Did I miss something?

Nothing. At the end, John said he was going to continue to investigate him.

[Vermicious Knid]

If it makes any of you feel better Marcus doesn't die in the book. And they made up all the relationships except Libby and Goo Goo for the TV show. They jettisoned most of the book in fact, which actually improved the narrative except for the 'love' stories.

This article is the first mention I've seen, anywhere, of a third book.

Quote

There is not currently a third book published in The Alienist series, although apparently author Caleb Carr has one set 20 years in the future to be released in 2022 (which might as well be 20 years in our own future, at this point).

 

[Zella]

I binge-watched the second season this week, despite never having read the books or watched the first season. I enjoyed the show and am going to go back and watch season 1 now. 

Just figured I'd lump my observations in one post rather than in each episode thread since they're more general anyway. 

Overall, I enjoyed the leads. John was my favorite, but I've always liked Daniel Bruhl. Might sound weird, but I think he just has really kind eyes, and because of that, I always felt like even when Kreizler was being awkward or somewhat awful, that he really did care about his patients and friends. In some ways, Sara was the least interesting to me (I felt like her character is one I have seen different variations of in other mysteries), but I didn't mind her--and I loved her fashion sense.

I didn't mind the relationship drama between John and Sara because I could see why they were both torn, and I thought those scenes were well-acted (especially that smackdown they had at the engagement party). But I found Karen really annoying. I usually like Lara Pulver, so I think the writing was to blame there. When John told Sara that she challenged him as a compliment, I could genuinely see why he would enjoy that and meant what he said--I think they challenge each other and it is something that attracted both of them to the other. But to me, Karen and Kreizler together just seemed to be her schooling him over and over again and that was really tedious. There seemed to be no give and take in that relationship, and the only thing I could conclude is he must enjoy being treated like he's stupid. 

I'm a big Michael McElhatton fan (the more smugly villainous he is the better), so I really enjoyed Dr. Roose Bolton and was disappointed that he was dropped in these last two episodes. It seemed like a missed opportunity for someone to not make him squirm about the PR disaster of, you know, having a female serial killer working at your charity hospital. Actually, there was quite a bit of tangential stuff there that was dropped--what happened to Helen? Was Kreizler's license still suspended? Was Dr. Bolton's hospital actually killing unwanted babies or adopting them out on the sly? I assumed it was the latter, but it was open for interpretation. 

I also enjoyed Levine as Byrnes. He was an awful person in many ways, but I could see why he was the way he was, and I liked the depth they gave him. 

Agree with everyone else who was impressed with Rosey McEwen. She nailed everything from Libby's awkward "normalcy" to her rage to her sorrow to her madness. It's such a little moment, but I think my favorite line reading was when she invited herself into the matron's apartment and then passive aggressively commented on how cheap her decorating taste was. I was genuinely shocked to check her IMDB page and see this was her first credited work. I look forward to seeing what she does in the future. 

Thanks to all of you who noted the article that mentioned her killing herself during the police raid. I'm not sure what to make of that, but when Sara told Byrnes not to let anyone shoot her, there was a pragmatic part of me that wondered if that wouldn't actually be a kindness to her. I can't even imagine what kind of treatment was in store for her in prison or in an asylum for the rest of her life as a woman who not only had serious psychological problems but also one who killed babies and a cop. 

In any event, I love history and mysteries and enjoyed the acting and production values. On a superficial note, I also loved just staring at Luke Evans. LOL

PS I did find the "hw" pronunciation really distracting, especially every time Dakota Fanning did it. I saw some other people on here saying that was intentional because of the time period. But I live in an area where some people pronounce it that way, and it is never quite that distracting in normal conversation. I noticed Evans managed to pull it off more subtly too. Weirdly enough, I know from watching interviews with McElhatton that he naturally pronounces "wh" words as "hw" all the time because of his Irish accent, but I never noticed him saying it that way in the show. Not sure if he avoided it to maintain the faux American accent or what the deal was. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Zella

[supposebly]

I watched this over the last week and I appreciated the focus on Sara. Too many shows focus on the tortured genius, so this was nice. I also think that Sara's hesitation about getting married to John had many layers and that was interesting to explore. There was the child having thing, which she wasn't sure about, whether that was because of her mother or because of her worry about her independence. Then, of course, dying in childbirth was quite common too at the time.

Then, I'm fairly certain John wouldn't have been ok with not getting married and once that happens, everything she owns is his as far as I understand the times and laws regarding women's property rights. That includes her business. That is a lot to give up.

Someone like her, I never really thought she would go for it. A woman gave up a lot for marriage at the time and depending on your circumstance, may gain a lot from marriage at the time. Sara would see it as giving up a lot, while Violet had everything to gain from a marriage with John.

I loved Laszlo being so smitten, Daniel Bruehl gave him a boyish shyness during those encounters that was adorable. I liked this self-doubting version much more. He seemed more like a person. I also really liked the occasional conversations he had alone with Sara. There was a nice friendship there.

However, Karen Stratton was rather underdeveloped as a character.  

I have very little to say about John. He's nice, but I don't think he and Sara would work. Every time he worries about Sara's safety I roll my eyes. He's actually overall a rather boring character. The one time I found him interesting was when he blew up at Sara at that awful party. He was right.

Rosy McEwen was a revelation as Libby. So much opportunity for overacting and she never once slipped. I really liked her when Sara met her the first time. I felt terrible for her while I was absolutely terrified every time I saw her with a baby because I worried she would kill the child in an instant for one reason or another. She played the instability and the heartbreak with such honesty when there were clear moments when you could tell Libby knew that this all would not end well for her and that there was no coming back for her. Outstanding for someone with so few credits.