S02.E07: Last Exit to Brooklyn/S02.E08: Better Angels

[TexasGal]

Quote

Sara, Kreizler and Moore travel to Brooklyn in search of clues hidden in the killer's dark past; Thomas Byrnes plans to double-cross the team as the killer's behaviour becomes more and more unhinged.

Quote

While Sara Moore and Kreizler struggle with decisions about their future paths, New York is in the grips of an all-out manhunt for the killer; the team must overcome the wrath of the police and an underworld gang to save innocent lives.

Airdate 08.09.2020

[Roxie]

"Sara Moore"?  Looks like a lot has happened! 😉

[Irlandesa]

10 minutes ago, Roxie said:

"Sara Moore"?  Looks like a lot has happened! 😉

Ha.  Kids--the importance of a comma. 

[paigow]

• Panda eats shoots and leaves.
• Panda eats, shoots and leaves.

8 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Ha.  Kids--the importance of a comma. 

 

[Roxie]

3 minutes ago, paigow said:

• Panda eats shoots and leaves.
• Panda eats, shoots and leaves.

 

Let's eat, Grandma!

Let's eat Grandma!

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Welp.

Lazlo is off to Vienna.

John and Vi get a shotgun wedding.

Sarah expands her Detective Agency.

Luscious and Bitsy will probably marry and name their Son after Baby Bro.

Speaking of which, R.I.P Marcus 

Bittersweet ending.

[ComeWhatMay]

Marcus was a heartbreaker. And, eh, not the ending I hoped for, especially with a third season a long shot. 

Sara seemed satisfied there at the end with her agency and John will have the child he longed for, I suppose. It could prove a lonely marriage for Violet, as you lose something when you get them this way, but I cannot muster any sympathy. 

Love does not always conquer all, but what a bummer. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, ComeWhatMay said:

Marcus was a heartbreaker. And, eh, not the ending I hoped for, especially with a third season a long shot. 

Sara seemed satisfied there at the end with her agency and John will have the child he longed for, I suppose. It could prove a lonely marriage for Violet, as you lose something when you get them this way, but I cannot muster any sympathy. 

Love does not always conquer all, but what a bummer. 

Yeah,  its was a bummer.  But I got the feeling that no matter which way John went he was going to get half of what he wanted. So this was likely the best of possible outcomes for Sara.

I personally think that Violet probably isn't really pregnant and that will come out after the wedding and John ends up without his friends to solve crimes with and Hearst as a father in law and no kid.  So probably the worse outcome for John.

[Souris]

That finale was a corker. So many heartbreaking aspects. I cried multiple times. While I didn’t like how everything ended, obviously, I thought it was an excellent season.

Big props to the actress playing Libby. She really gave it her all. Learning Libby’s history was wrenching.

WHY did Sara and Laszlo not call the brothers?? Like, I know they were in the middle of a bloodbath, but they had to know that’s where Libby and GooGoo were headed. Damn it, poor Marcus.

I feel like the Moore baby is going to end up another one with a loving father and a crappy mother. I trust John will not end up like Sara and Libby’s fathers. John is not going to have a good marriage, between not loving Violet, how it started, and being a competitor to his father-in-law. Am I a bad person for head-canoning that Violet dies soon after giving birth? (Assuming she’s actually pregnant and it’s not a soap opera fake pregnancy.) Honestly, she’s not evil or horrible, just vacuous and in the way. Oh, well, I saw it coming, sigh.

Poor Clara is really going to need some therapy.

Got a bit of amusement at everyone just randomly and immediately walloping the hell out of GooGoo’s henchman.

I feel like Lazslo and Karen moved awfully fast there.

Was that new detective Kitty BYRNES??

Honestly one of the best seasons of TV I’ve watched recently.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Souris

[pezgirl7]

We were joking last episode about one of the women being pregnant, but I didn't think the show would actually go there. I hate that John's decision was basically made for him. It's such a cop-out. I think John and Violet will be loving parents, and John will be somewhat happy, and will probably grow to love Violet, but the idea of him being part of the Hearst family and having to deal with their stuck-up asses irks me. Hopefully his little family can break off and do their own thing.

I also wondered why Sara and Laszlo didn't pick up a damn phone and call the institute. Another plot device. I guess the show felt they needed a good-guy death. I haven't read the book. Can someone tell me in a spoiler tag if Marcus dies in the book?

[paigow]

Lucius...your bro is dead because of you...reminds me of Upham in Saving Private Ryan...choked when it mattered.

We are supposed to believe that a fancy house in Brooklyn was just sitting empty all these years? Or did Goo Goo kill everyone off screen?

Maybe Sara should take her pistol OUT of the handbag when she breaches a house. Damn Goo Goo always getting the drop on them....

[Souris]

I just realized, we never found out why Libby was taking the medicine that poisoned the babies, did we? Or did I miss the explanation?

[Irlandesa]

Argh.  Both of my period piece, dark shows which ended tonight (and have had so many similarities) ended on notes that made sense but weren't particularly woohoo.

I have to give it up to the casting department.  Rosy McEwen (Libby) has no credits before this show but I thought she was terrific.  It's hard to reveal the culprit early on in the series and be engaging but this show managed to do it in large part to her performance. I suspect we'll be seeing more of her.  Or at least I hope we do.

I don't know if we'll get a third season.  The way they ended things makes it possible.  It also makes it possible for a few years to pass before they revisit the characters if they want to wait for the third book to finally be published. 

John's fate was sealed the minute he gave into Violet's seduction and I think, deep down, he knew it too. Even if she weren't pregnant, I think that would have been a tough engagement to get out of after he gave in.  I don't like the soap opera "the only time they have sex knocks her up just as he might get the woman he really loves" trope of it all but maybe that was just the show's way of short handing how cornered John was after sleeping with her to a modern audience. 

I found myself laughing at almost conversation John had with Sara about their relationship, though.  He kept acting like he was the one not being forthcoming with his feelings or hiding his affection behind anger.  Even today he was all "I was raised a gentleman and sometimes that means we don't say what we want. I want you."  I mean, that's pretty darn obvious.  It's Sara who kept her feelings close to her vest. 

But at least I do think we have a few more questions answered about her.  She didn't see herself in the role of wife and mother (or she was at least unsure) and regardless of what John said he wanted, I think she feared he'd resent choosing love over a family.  Having the choice made for them/her got her off the hook of deciding whether it was risk trying to merge their visions of togetherness. 

Oh well, at least we got that great love scene last week. 

[Robert Lynch]

You think this show would be canceled? This show doesn't seem cheap to make!

[paigow]

Libby & Goo Goo made a perfect couple...both of them loved to Red Reddington pre-murder monologue

[thuganomics85]

Well, I guess this is one of those shows were at least one regular is required to be killed off each season.  Poor Marcus.  Despite his and Lucious' talents, they probably weren't exactly the best choices for guard duty.  At least Lucious avenged him, but I imagine that will do a number on him going forward.

Hey, John actually got to briefly be a hero for a second and be the one to save Sara!  Sure, it ended with him then proceeding to get taken down by Libby and get a knife to his throat, but it's the thought that counts!  You'll win a fight one of these days, Mr. Moore!

I'm glad Laszlo is starting to open up to new possibilities and I continue to enjoy the chemistry between Daniel Bruhl and Lara Pulver, but I wish we got more Laszlo/Karen scenes to really sell the idea of him willing to take off to Vienna with her.  It might have been better if this was a ten episode season instead.

Oof, should have figured they would keep finding ways to keep Sara and John apart.  So, now Violet is pregnant, so John is going back to her.  Even if everything goes well with the birth (you really can't tell with this show!), I really don't seem them having a happy marriage.  To be fair, it's hard to say if John and Sara would be a good fit, since it is certainly possible Sara will never want to start a family: even with John.  But it is clear that John will also love her the most, and his relationship with Violet is likely doomed.  Plus, who would want to have Hearst as their father in-law?!

Byrnes was actually somewhat helpful at the end and even listened to Sara!  Didn't know he had it in him!

Definitely curious to see where Rosy McEwen goes from here.  She was great as Libby: making her scary and unhinged at first, but actually making me feel for her at the end, once her backstory was revealed.  Woman's got talent!

Cyrus never really did anything this season.  Hope Robert Ray Wisdom at least got a good paycheck out of it!

It sounded like John was going after Dr. Marco now, but I wish that had more of a resolution.

If this is it for the show, it would work as a bittersweet finale more or less.  But I wouldn't be against a return, because I really enjoy this setting and especially the characters (and the performers, of course.)  But I can't tell if it has been doing well enough to warrant it.  Plus, with all of the production delays, it might not be able to return until 2022 or something.

 

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Plus, with all of the production delays, it might not be able to return until 2022 or something.

Lazlo was written out because of Falcon & Winter Soldier commitment...that just resumed filming... so a third season would now be quite far away...

[minamurray78]

Well I´m gonna pretend this last episode didn't happen. The whole Sarah/john resolution was sooo soapy. And Marcus, ay. I hated that.

Laszlo was more of a third wheel this season, He was there for some big moments, and the rest of his scenes with Karen seemed, I dont´t know, rushed maybe? It suffered in comparison to his relationship with Mary from last season which I liked so much, but the characters had known each other prior to the story. Hard to get to the same place in like 4 episodes. 

Maybe in a couple of days I'll make my peace with this ending, sigh.

 

[Asikus]

Well I must say I really enjoyed this season. When it comes to the baby kidnapping arc I think it was better than Japheth Dury resolution. 
 

That being said, the soap opera plot points were sooo cringy. Everything has been said about John/Sara but I was also disappointed in Kreizler character development.

I didn’t care about that romance (?) one bit. And for a central character he really didn’t do much. His relationship with that boy who wanted to do magic was very interesting and then the whole threat of losing the Institute but at the end it kind of seemed like it doesn’t matter anymore because he got kissed 😂

The writers of this show should really stop watching so much Hallmark 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Asikus

[ferjy]

Ha ha! OMG ...John. 

 

He shows up in the knick of time to save Sara and of course Sara ends up saving him as he’s about to have his throat slit. The running theme of his near-deaths and beat-ups kills me. Love it! The Hapless Wonder of altercations. 

 

Sara gets ready to go after the baby:  “You need rest.”

John: “I’m coming with you.”

Sara: {{grimaces}}

 

Sara on the way into the cell with Libby.

John: If you need us, we’ll be here. 

Sara: {{rolls eyes}}

 

😁 I swear they’re putting in these scenes with John just so we can make fun of them. 😉 When the brawl broke out in the jail, all could think was “Oh John, please don’t walk in. Sara has enough on her plate.”

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by ferjy

[ferjy]

4 hours ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Speaking of which, R.I.P Marcus 

That was sad about Marcus. I’m just glad it wasn’t Lucius, he’s my favourite. He has to be back next season with Bitsy. I want to see his proposal, it should be a doozy. 

I thought they were great episodes this week, but I wasn’t happy with the “romantic” endings. The tiresome “I’m pregnant” cliché, how many times has that been used! And I’m disappointed that Laszlo is joining Lady Alienist in Vienna. I still feel no chemistry there. That was the coldest TV kiss I’ve seen. Hopefully Daniel Brühl will be finished his other project before The Alienist starts filming a new season (of course there will be one!) and he’s back in New York after his 6-month visit to Vienna where he’s realized that smooching a carp in the East River would be more exciting than locking lips with the professor. Or maybe he’ll get tired of their constant techno talk. I know I did. Violet will die in childbirth and Sara won’t have to give birth after all. She’ll fall in love with Baby Sara (of course John will name his daughter after her, with no Violet around to complain) and her mother gene will kick in and she’ll finally accept John’s proposal. Who else better to have by his side in the next attempt(s) on his life? Sara has it down pat by now. 

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Quote

Well I´m gonna pretend this last episode didn't happen.

I would say a good 50% if not more of the plot was made up for the show. Much of it was to the benefit of the story, but the dreadful love triangle was not. You may not believe it but this was an improvement over the book, IMO. The book was different than the typical mystery, instead of the killer being revealed at the end they identified her earlier on and spent most of the story gathering evidence to prove it. They (loosely) kept to that here.

If there's a third series I could see it picking up five years later, as Kreizler returns from Europe. Sara has been happy running her agency and has moved to a bigger office. John has two children now and is a senior editor at the Times.

[Asikus]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

 I’m disappointed that Laszlo is joining Lady Alienist in Vienna. I still feel no chemistry there. That was the coldest TV kiss I’ve seen. Hopefully Daniel Brühl will be finished his other project before The Alienist starts filming a new season (of course there will be one!) and he’s back in New York after his 6-month visit to Vienna where he’s realized that smooching a carp in the East River would be more exciting than locking lips with the professor. Or maybe he’ll get tired of their constant techno talk. I know I did. 

 

You killed me 😂 I couldn’t agree more

[ComeWhatMay]

7 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I personally think that Violet probably isn't really pregnant and that will come out after the wedding and John ends up without his friends to solve crimes with and Hearst as a father in law and no kid.  So probably the worse outcome for John.

I suspect same. That we did not see Violet tell John is partly why. I could see Violet thinking she will actually conceive and then not have it happen. Infertility was a thing then too and this is not a happily ever after show, I would argue. Imagine Newland and May without their kids? 

I also thought they telegraphed that Sara is pregnant and feeling conflicted about it. It fits with the unwed mother theme more so than a shotgun wedding. Sara has the money and resources to go and hide for a bit at the end, have staff to help and she is already “unconventional.” 

Why not tell John? Beyond that it’s early and she is conflicted, Hearst would have gone after John hard if he tried to end the engagement with Violet, baby or no baby. It was the time and he is a PITA who needs to attempt to do right by his illegitimate daughter he runs about calling his goddaughter rather than acknowledging. Sara would know that and she would spare John a crushing choice essentially between his children. Hearst will not have his talons in Sara’s. John needs to compensate for a lot over there if there really is a child coming. 

Laszlo’s romance lacked enthusiasm and has the feel of running away from his problems. 

It all kept me engaged, I will say that. I just wish  love was not portrayed so pitifully or as an either/or. If they get another go, I will see if I give them one. 

[WednesdayAddams]

I am not okay with this ending. It seems only Lazlo gets to be happy. John is trapped in a loveless relationship, with in-laws that hate him, though he gets a kid. If your best friend, Lazlo doesn't like her and can read people really well, John should have taken that into consideration. Sara loses her real love, though she continues with her business. And I got teary when Marcus died. 

In my head, there's a new serial killer, and he/she kills Violet leaving John a single father and he has to employ his friends to solve the murder. That sounds terrible, but I really hated her character. 

[joanne3482]

11 hours ago, Souris said:

Was that new detective Kitty BYRNES??

It was since I haven't seen Season 1, I wondered if they had previously introduced her and I just missed it, but I guess she's supposed to be the kin of retired Detective Byrnes. 

[iMonrey]

I have now watched 2 seasons of this show, and I have not changed my opinion since S1E1 that Dakota Fanning is terrible in this. I have seen her in other things and I know she can act, so she is apparently making a deliberate acting choice in affecting this weird, stilted, flat speechifying cadence to her line delivery. I have not read the books, perhaps there is something there that directs her to believe Sara would speak this way. But there is something very performative about it that feels unnatural and un-genuine next to all the other characters. 

I also feel like all the romantic aspects of the show were poorly developed and underserved, especially this season. Lazlo's new love interest had about seven scene through the entire season, hardly enough for me to be invested in her one way or another. Lucius and Bitsy were cute but the Isaacsons were tertiary characters this season at best, and they completely dropped Marcus's storyline with that woman who had a kid. I never really got invested in John and Sara either because last season they sort of danced around Sara being in love with Lazlo, and the way Fanning plays this part she's such a cold fish I can't see her as a romantic figure with anyone.

I think I enjoyed Season 1's story more than this season's. It just had more twists and turns (although, admittedly, a big red herring) whereas this season was less of a mystery. Also, as a non-parent, there is no worse torture I can endure than the sound of screaming babies all the time.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Asikus said:

it doesn’t matter anymore because he got kissed 😂

Dude is super horny because Karen is super kinky...LGBT + BDSM = Super Freak, Temptations sing!

[jelaine]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Dude is super horny because Karen is super kinky...LGBT + BDSM = Super Freak, Temptations sing!

Rick James.

[pezgirl7]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Hey, John actually got to briefly be a hero for a second and be the one to save Sara!  Sure, it ended with him then proceeding to get taken down by Libby and get a knife to his throat, but it's the thought that counts!  You'll win a fight one of these days, Mr. Moore!

He did win in the end though. He grabbed Libby, flipped her over, and pinned her down. He should have been able to do that a lot sooner though. A 110 pound woman normally can't overpower a strong man. But they needed it as a plot point so Sara can realize that she loves John. Although in the end it didn't matter since she didn't have to make a decision.

12 hours ago, Souris said:

I just realized, we never found out why Libby was taking the medicine that poisoned the babies, did we? Or did I miss the explanation?

Wow, you're right. That's pretty sloppy. I'm gonna guess she was just self-medicating herself. They also never really said where she got the idea for drawing the eyes on the eyelids, or how she knew the process of photography. I thought there was going to be more to that.

There sure is a lot of Violet hate here! lol I don't think she's lying about the pregnancy. She seems to actually care about John, and I just don't see her tricking him like that.

[LadyChaos]

I think one of three things happened, because I don't see how Vi could know she was pregnant that fast without a pregnancy test because then: 1) Vi was already pregnant and slept with John bc she knew he was honorable and would stay by her. This is of course assuming that the engagement party was their first time, which I think it was otherwise they wouldn't have made a big deal out of it. 2)She slept with him intending to get pregnant to trap him, actually is pregnant, and more time passed than the show indicated. 3) She's not pregnant and faking it, which case conveniently she'll have a miscarriage after their wedding night.

I think its sad because I do think John finally admitted to himself that he was happier with Sara and Lazlo, and the Issacsons than he was being a Gentleman. I do think he was honest when he said that he finally understood what he wanted and it wasn't what he was born into. I think while he wanted a family and a home, what he really wanted more than anything was to love someone and be loved in return. Sara gave him that. 

I think in the future, if there is 3rd season, we will see John with a child whose sole happiness is his child and his job. I think he and Vi will grow to be bitter or indifferent with each other. He will endeavor to avoid Sara as much as possible but eventually she will turn to him for more information on a case. I think she meant what she said to him, she is happy for him but sad too. I think she'd started to think she could be with him after he nearly lost his life. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if eventually they started having an affair and kept it quiet. It wouldn't be that surprising given the times. 

[galkobulko]

Well, it seems like their way to end the season (and possibly the show? who knows if this will get picked up for another season) is to get everyone some sort of happy ending (even poor John, who obviously wanted a family, and by the beginning of this season had made peace with the fact he's not getting the girl he'd been pining for), except for Sara, who is left with this "pain that won't go away". Cool.

I realize that she is very happy professionally and is doing amazing things with the detective agency, but pointing out (incessantly) that she's basically Libby Hatch minus the homicidal tendencies and leaving it at that is kind of cruel.

[Regalbegal]

5 hours ago, WednesdayAddams said:

I am not okay with this ending. It seems only Lazlo gets to be happy. John is trapped in a loveless relationship, with in-laws that hate him, though he gets a kid. If your best friend, Lazlo doesn't like her and can read people really well, John should have taken that into consideration. Sara loses her real love, though she continues with her business. And I got teary when Marcus died. 

I was pretty much anticipating they would end on a down note for Sara and John, I couldn't imagine the show having a "happily ever after" even though I would have liked to see one.  At about 8 minutes before the end time, I thought - "how are they going to throw a wrench in here after the last scene between Sara and John?" Welp...

All and I think it was a fitting ending for the season (and possibly the show?), even if the last two hours got a little repetitive with "murderer almost getting captured but then escaping and doing mayhem".  

[LadyChaos]

41 minutes ago, galkobulko said:

Well, it seems like their way to end the season (and possibly the show? who knows if this will get picked up for another season) is to get everyone some sort of happy ending (even poor John, who obviously wanted a family, and by the beginning of this season had made peace with the fact he's not getting the girl he'd been pining for), except for Sara, who is left with this "pain that won't go away". Cool.

I realize that she is very happy professionally and is doing amazing things with the detective agency, but pointing out (incessantly) that she's basically Libby Hatch minus the homicidal tendencies and leaving it at that is kind of cruel.

I think Sara's arc is unresolved. I don't think she doesn't want children and family, I think she is afraid she will end being her mother. Which is not the same thing. She clearly has more love and compassion than her mother did.

[ComeWhatMay]

23 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I think Sara's arc is unresolved. I don't think she doesn't want children and family, I think she is afraid she will end being her mother. Which is not the same thing. She clearly has more love and compassion than her mother did.

Not who you were replying to, but I sure hope it’s unresolved. I saw a lot of warmth from Sara when she interacted with the infants. I think what troubles me about this ending is that with some patience and compromise John could have had his great love and longed for child, if not a soccer team. He sold himself short and I think he knew it. 

re: the Violet hate, to me, she is her father’s daughter and I know he is not above a say you are pregnant stunt. A child may make a marriage to someone like that tolerable, but it can really, really mess up the child. 

[galkobulko]

48 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I think Sara's arc is unresolved. I don't think she doesn't want children and family, I think she is afraid she will end being her mother. Which is not the same thing. She clearly has more love and compassion than her mother did.

Agreed. And to resolve her arc, they don't necessarily need her to find the traditional happiness with a family, etc. It'd be good for her to not be so painfully alone in the end, and realize that she is someone that can be loved (and is enough) as she is, because now she clearly thinks that John only loves the idealized version of her, and would never love her true self.

Edited August 10, 2020 by galkobulko

[tennisgurl]

As much as I liked this season, and I did like it quite a lot, I almost wish that we had ended on the same note as last season. The team was still together and ready to solve crimes, there was a possibility that John and Sara would get together, it was bittersweet but leaning more towards sweet. This ending was also bittersweet, but closer to bitter. I am really sad that Marcus died, especially after hardly getting anything to do this season, and this ending for Sara and John is rather disappointing for me. I guess this isn't a show that is going to give us the fairy tale ending, and I can get that if Sara didn't want kids and John did, that this would have been a big issue, but them being kept apart like this, with this soap opera pregnancy that sticks John with Violet, is just sad. Especially considering it seems like John is probably destined for a polite but loveless marriage with a horrible father in law, even if at least he will get to raise a child like he wanted, and will keep working as a reporter, even as he holds a torch for Sara. 

The actress who played Libby was amazing, and I was surprised to see so few credits for her on IMBD, I hope that she goes on to do a lot of great things. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, galkobulko said:

Well, it seems like their way to end the season (and possibly the show? who knows if this will get picked up for another season) is to get everyone some sort of happy ending (even poor John, who obviously wanted a family, and by the beginning of this season had made peace with the fact he's not getting the girl he'd been pining for), except for Sara, who is left with this "pain that won't go away". Cool.

I realize that she is very happy professionally and is doing amazing things with the detective agency, but pointing out (incessantly) that she's basically Libby Hatch minus the homicidal tendencies and leaving it at that is kind of cruel.

I think Lazlo is the only one who got a "full" ending.  He has his career and he has potential love.  Of course last season, he lost love so he deserves the happiness.

Both Sara and John have half happy endings.  John had made peace with the fact that he wouldn't get Sara but I think that peace was upended when he and Sara had sex. I think it's a lot easier to make peace with having unreciprocated feelings. John moved on to what he saw could be a separate path to happiness.  He'll have a family and a new job but knowing that Sara has feelings for him means that "what could've been" is going to leave its mark.

And Sara is happy being single, in control of her own destiny and not losing what women lose when they got married at that time.  She also doesn't have to worry about not wanting the same thing John wants and the unhappiness that might creep in once the honeymoon period is over. But yeah, I do think this case has shown her she's more worthy and capable of love/reciprocating his feelings than maybe she was aware. 

So for her, she'll have the "what could've beens" if she had opened up to him sooner. 

34 minutes ago, ComeWhatMay said:

Not who you were replying to, but I sure hope it’s unresolved. I saw a lot of warmth from Sara when she interacted with the infants. I think what troubles me about this ending is that with some patience and compromise John could have had his great love and longed for child, if not a soccer team. He sold himself short and I think he knew it. 

re: the Violet hate, to me, she is her father’s daughter and I know he is not above a say you are pregnant stunt. A child may make a marriage to someone like that tolerable, but it can really, really mess up the child. 

John potentially sold himself short but there's no way for him to know that at the time.  It's not like he didn't try to have it all.  He had made his feelings for Sara known.  He proposed to her twice.  She rejected him both times and tried to dismiss his feelings.  Just before he had sex with Violet, she once again told him he deserved someone different than Violet--someone like her (Sara) but definitely not her.

 

[ComeWhatMay]

31 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

John potentially sold himself short but there's no way for him to know that at the time.  It's not like he didn't try to have it all.  He had made his feelings for Sara known.  He proposed to her twice.  She rejected him both times and tried to dismiss his feelings.  Just before he had sex with Violet, she once again told him he deserved someone different than Violet--someone like her (Sara) but definitely not her.

Point taken. Some of her broken heart is on Sara and her class reply to the pregnancy news was appropriate. But as they say, marry in haste, repent at leisure. Realizing his past hurts and desire to settle down, Papa Hearst was reason enough for him to shop around and not have a reckless jump off that boxed him in to a corner. 

[Vermicious Knid]

With further thought, this would have been better served as a 6 hour drama and not 8. There were entire parts that could have easily been axed. I also think they wrote that interview with Karen's patient/friend just so they could put in a scene at a fetish club. There's no reason they couldn't have talked to her at either of their offices.

Marriage is completely anathema to Sara's character as presented. She would cease to be Sara Howard and become Mrs. John Schuyler Moore. At that time I think she also legally would have belonged to her husband. Violet wanted to subsume her identity and become someone else.

[paigow]

39 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Violet wanted to subsume her identity and become someone else.

Because her current identity was a semi-nobody illegitimate high society child

[Regalbegal]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Because her current identity was a semi-nobody illegitimate high society child

Very good point - it was difficult for me at times to not view the show through a 21st century lens.  However annoying and privileged the character was, Violet's options in the world at that time were quite limited.  

[Morrigan2575]

I don't care that John and Sara didn't grt together. I never believed she lovef him s much as he loved her. I ended up liking Violet a lot more the more we got to see her. The actress did a good job, IMO of showing someone who is deeply hurt but, putting on a front. 

My only complaint is that I honestly wished John got to choose. That john chose children and a family over Sara because deep down it's what he's always wanted. I hate that they made John a victim of fate rather then choosing. 

This show does not treat John well at all. 😔

Poor Marcus, I was so shocked and sad. That scene between the brothers 😥😭

Edited August 11, 2020 by Morrigan2575

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Just checked on IMDB, half of the Writing team didn't return for S2.

 Which includes John Sayles, he wrote two eppys last season.

 

[Cotypubby]

Eh. I am not a fan of how this season became “The Sara Howard Show” instead of “The Alienist.” Lazslo was practically a supporting character. 
 

100% in agreement with the post upthread that Dakota Fanning is terrible in this. I was so bored and annoyed every time she would speak.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cotypubby

[Nampara]

The unsung hero of the season finale was the underappreciated Ding Dong -- constantly taking a hit for the team. "Let me explain it to you." *Punch in nose.* "Oh, you want a finder's fee?" *Punch in nose.* "You mean Goo Goo stood us up?!" *Punch in nose (and elsewhere).*

[Roxie]

Does anyone besides me think that Hearst may have set up the whole Violet-seduces-John-and-then-"gets-pregnant" scheme in order to avoid the mess it would have made for John to break off the engagement?

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, Roxie said:

Does anyone besides me think that Hearst may have set up the whole Violet-seduces-John-and-then-"gets-pregnant" scheme in order to avoid the mess it would have made for John to break off the engagement?

Possibly, but I think its more likely she came seduced him of her own accord. If she is not pregnant, I could see daddy dearest telling her to tell John she is anyway. Personally, I feel like I don't understand why Vi wanted him so badly when it was clear he was in love with another woman. She said she didn't want to be her mother, or Hearsts wife were people gossiped behind her back all the time.....well I'm sure they will now.

I think John is the type of man who, in an attempt to make his marriage work, would try to cease contact with Sara

[LadyChaos]

Anyone else wonder who Clara's father was? Like was Libby raped, was it consensual.....I have questions? Was Clara born with issues? Like I have questions.

How come John being raped was never addressed? Doe he remember? Not remember? 

No reference to Mary. What happened to the boy they saved in s1. Where is he? John seemed like he was going to adopt him, but clearly he didn't. 

I have to be honest this felt almost like a different series with the same setting and characters, than a 2nd season. 

[Irlandesa]

18 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Personally, I feel like I don't understand why Vi wanted him so badly when it was clear he was in love with another woman.

I got the impression that he didn't hang out with Sara much before this case.  She might not have been aware of how deep his affection for Sara went. By then, the engagement was known.  Breaking an engagement back then would have been a big deal. 

But I do agree that I think John will reduce contact with her.  The goodbye at the dinner felt like it was more than a 'see you later' goodbye.  They won't see much of each other until he gets pulled into another case.