S06.E17: Liberation

[Trini]

After recent events, Barry takes a closer look at his life with Iris. Eva (guest star Efrat Dor) makes a bold move.

Jeff Byrd directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 4/28/2020

[Trini]

Shoutout from the director:

 

[BeautifulFlower]

I kinda felt bad for Miris at the end.

We all pretty much knew this, but we got confirmation that singh is a clone.

Eva needs a therapist. Anyway, I'm failing to see why Iris was needed. To make a clone? Eva can do that for anybody else. I'm going to assume Singh was a clone for a while now. She could've used him to help with her plan.

What is Eva's plan? Why does she want to go after her husband? Why?

The fight scene was awesome. 

I get Danielle is pregnant. However, that small plot was not needed. If she missed 2 episodes already without an explanation in those episodes, she could've missed this one. Literally, those scenes proved nothing.

[bettername2come]

I like that Iris has hung out with the scientists enough that her plan was to dissect the mirror piece-by-piece. 

Thank God Barry finally figured it out. And good thing he's an expert at conspiracy board-making so he didn't need to use his speed force to get it done quickly. I love a good "I know there's good in you somewhere" speech, and I didn't think it was too outlandish that she wasn't all bad and helped him in the end. The mirror scene between them at the end was good. I like that Iris is there promising to find Singh and Kamilah too, I was starting to get concerned. 

I loved all the Cecile and Barry this episode. It's an angle of the family dynamics we haven't see much of, and I liked her faith in him in the end.

So I guess Caitlin's going to be off with her mom looking for the answer to her latest icy problem for the duration of Danielle's maternity leave?

[Lady Calypso]

This was such a great episode. Having them focus mostly on the Barry/Iris/Siri stuff helped a lot. The episode felt more put together in this way.

Yeah, we got four minutes of the Caitlin stuff but it was something that I could mostly ignore. They were fairly short scenes, anyway.

And we got to see Ramsey! I guess to just remind people that he's around and will be back at some point to cause more havok...oh, and to help Eva out of the mirror.

Candice Patton is an absolute gem and I'm glad this season has allowed her to put her acting to better use than in other seasons. She looked like she was having fun with Siri. And we got to advance that plot a little bit. Barry gets to use his intelligence now that he can't rely on his powers anymore, which is the BEST thing for Barry. We got so much of Barry trying to save his wife. And I liked the Cecile/Barry scenes. And they also utilized Nash perfectly for me. 

And the fight between Siri and Barry was solid. I loved seeing Barry and Iris somehow team up to stop Siri. Unfortunately, it didn't stop Eva from traveling through the mirror and she left Iris behind. It's annoying that Iris is still stuck in the mirror and it feels like she may be stuck in there until 7x01, just because I get the feeling that they may have wanted to keep her in the mirror for longer than two more episodes. Hopefully I am wrong about this.

The end scene was good, but I could have done without the sappy music.

Overall, a very solid episode, probably one of my favourites of the season. 

[quarks]

1. Still not shipping Barry/Iris, but even I have to say that this was one of their more romantic episodes. Barry knowing that Iris would be trying to save everyone else in the mirror universe was awesome.

2. Really strong episode for Candice Patton, too.

3. Cecile's powers, though, remain annoyingly plot convenient. Need everyone to believe Iris? Cecile's powers are off! Need everyone to believe Barry? Cecile's powers are on!

4. And why didn't anyone suggest focusing the camera/mirror thingy on someone else as a test before using it on Barry and not-Iris?

5. Again, I get why the show is breaking Team Flash up into separate groups and plots, but it seems really odd to be trying to determine if Iris is Iris or not without at least Cisco there, and possibly Caitlin as the team doctor and Ralph as the detective able to note patterns/personality changes.

Speaking of those three, though:

6. Cisco and Ralph: Caitlin, what happened?

Caitlin: The directors got tired of trying to shoot me at weird camera angles to hide my pregnancy so we all agreed I should just lie on this couch with a blanket. Is it working?

Me: Not in an interesting way, no. Or a concealing pregnancy way, either.

7. Was anyone else thinking of the time waaay back in the first season when Oliver was trying to train Barry and get him to realize that superspeed or no superspeed, he really, really needed to pay attention to his surroundings? Probably not a deliberate callback, but, see, Barry? This is why you needed to listen to Oliver about strategy!

[thuganomics85]

At least Eva confirmed that the real Singh (oh, and Kamilla) are stuck in the mirrorverse too, so hopefully the real Iris will find them, and get them all out by the end of all of this.

So glad that Barry figured things out finally, because, again, Siri flat-out kicking Barry out of the apartment last week was just so out of character, he would have had to have been a total idiot not to put the pieces together.  Of course, they still had to spend a little time having everyone think he was crazy (thanks in part to some Eva/Siri trickery), but I'm glad that's already over with as well.

Figured it was going to end with Siri finally breaking out on her own, but I should have known Eva wasn't going to let that fly.  Fare thee well, Siri.  Candice Patton did an excellent job and seemed to be having fun getting to be a bit more "evil."

Cisco and Ralph were basically stuck on Caitlin duty to a) remind everyone Caitlin still exists and b) probably to also have them out of the way for all of the Barry/Siri stuff, because they probably could have made a difference.  Still, Carlos Valdes and Hartley Sawyer were great as always.

So, Eva can now transport between both worlds thanks to.... Bloodwork!  Props to them not crediting Sendhil Ramamurthy in the opening credits, which made Ramsey's reveal fun.  But he's remaining locked up, because he has an even bigger plan, it seems.  Wouldn't be surprised if he was being saved for the finale/final episodes, so I won't be surprised if they have to hold off until next season to reveal all of that.

Grant Gustin and Candice Patton sold the hell out of that final scene, despite every other aspect being so, so cheesy.  But I guess it wouldn't be The Flash without that sweeting cheddar!

[tennisgurl]

Grant Gustin and Candice Patton are so dang good, they have such chemistry, even when separated by a mirror dimension! They both really got to show their chops (as this is yet another of Barry's terrible horrible no good very bad days) and its especially great seeing Candice getting a lot of really juicy material, including getting to play evil. Even their big mirror hand holding scene, it was so cheesy, but damn it it was also super affecting because they sold the crap out of it! 

So yes, Barry has figured it out! Complete with a whole big room filled conspiracy board! Yeah that all might sound crazy, if this wasnt the DC universe where clones, shapeshifters, alternate universe counterparts, robots, and all kinds of random crap exists, so Iris not being Iris is a totally legit possibility! Cecile, dont try to tell Barry that he is going crazy or making excuses for his marital problems, Siri has engaged in enough gaslighting! Poor guy looked like he was about five seconds from just breaking down and crying. At least Cecile got there eventually, which makes sense, considering she happens to be a freaking empath. I love that Barry was like "of course its not Iris, Iris makes the worst pancakes on all of Earth 1!" and of course, that their big fight was what really clued him in. 

The fight with him and Siri was really intense, but I ended up feeling bad for her. I suspected that Siri had started to catch feelings for Barry, and she was clearly upset about Eva sending her mirror sister to her death, and her death really was quite sad. She finally found some sort of autonomy, and then her mirror mother ended her. Barry does love his "I know theres good in you" speeches, and he has a decently high success rate! Poor Barry, and poor Iris, and even poor Siri. Also, we seemingly get confirmation that Siri and Barry did sleep together, which...we gonna talk about that? I feel like we need to talk about that. 

Glad we got confirmation that Singh and Kamilah are in the mirror world, and that they are going to try and find them ASAP. So what is Eva's plan exactly, is it just getting out of the mirror world and getting revenge? So why all the evil theatrics, why didnt she just ask Iris for help? Its possible that she has pretty much lost her mind in there and isnt really thinking straight, but whats the plan? 

Ramsey returns! I guess he would certainly relate to the mirror peoples mommy issues, but it turns out he has some kind of greater plan. Cool seeing him again, and I am really glad that the opening credits didnt spoil his appearance. 

Oh, and Caitlin returns, having some kind of cold coma because...the show wanted to remind us that she still exists apparently. 

[phoenics]

Damn - that was a really good episode... stressed me the F out though - I had no idea where it was going.  I mean I knew Eva was going to get out, but everything else.  That Bloodwork surprise was very good - no idea that was coming at all.

And I loved Barry being SO sure about Iris/Siri and then him sounding a little crazy about it and almost manic - it was really well done to show how desperate he was to figure out what happened to his Iris.  But then Siri had that twist (with the help of Eva) and I was literally yelling at the tv and screaming noooooooo!!!! Ugh poor Barry - that moment was just so ... ugh!

So when Iris found the totally obvious button by the mirror and was able to see the other mirrors and then she got the headache and passed out - what and why did she pass out?  Is she going to be able to control the mirror dimension like Eva?

And then... that EPIC fight scene with Siri and Barry - she totally brought out her Terminator 2 knive-arms and sliced Barry up.  Whew.  She really - really messed Barry up... whew... and then that scene of her crawling over him and taunting him about how he had no clue while she shared his bed... his "shut up" and her little mocking laugh... whew... CP came to slay all day.  She just ate her scenes up.  Well done to her and Grant.

And just when I thought I couldn't hate Siri more - she has a heart, helps Barry and then Eva smashes her to pieces and I felt bad for her.  

And then Barry and real Iris ended me with that sweet moment at the mirror.

Loved this episode - can't wait to watch again.

[Trini]

Okay, they got me with those final WestAllen scenes, 😭😭 however, I wasn't really buying some of the stuff with Siri before that. She's The Special that suddenly was able to catch feelings/free will? And then she died anyway, so what was the point? I don't know if I'll apreciate it better on rewatch, but that was my first impression.

(Wait -- was Siri supposed to be the "tragic" "sacrifice" Wallce mentioned in a few interviews? Was I supposed to feel bad about the non-human impostor that has been manipulating everyone this whole time? Nah, Eric. Nah.)

I always appreciate looking at Sendhil, but it was kind of random to see Bloodwork again. I guess they need to remind us he exists for the next time they bring him back?

LOL at them building that whole speed force contraption offscreen! Barry getting his speed back should be the A-plots, but so far it's being treated like filler.

Well, Cecile powers are still only useful when and how the writers want them to be; but I did enjoy having some Barry/Cecile scenes. They haven't really done much with that relationship.

So not only is real Kamilla missing, but Mirror-Kamilla is gone too -- will they have Cisco notice at all?? Nevermind, they won't, because the only reason anyone even knows about the Kamilla and Singh clones is because Eva flat out told Barry. Otherwise literally no one would know.

Kind of feel bad that Ralph only has a plot when Sue is around. But maybe they'll attach him to Caitlin's exit plot?

So glad to see real Iris in again (in more than one scene!) and being active in the plot. I'm disappointed that she's still in the Mirrorverse, but at least now she has a mission to find Kamilla and Singh.

Props to Candice for playing the two versions of Iris. And the Barry vs. Siri fight was cool... and scary! Poor Barry. And props to Grant too; I was feeling his desperation to get Iris back.

And they acknowledged that Barry and Siri slept together... yay? 😥

[phoenics]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, we seemingly get confirmation that Siri and Barry did sleep together, which...we gonna talk about that? I feel like we need to talk about that. 

 

Did we?  Or are they gonna pretend like she just meant "sleeping next to him"?

They really need to be clear about this though...

[ruby24]

Yeah, that was confirmation that Mirror Iris slept with Barry- at least they acknowledged it. They probably won't again though, unless Iris is upset about it later.

[Jediknight]

Barry and Iris really are the best Beeboverse couple.

[Lantern7]

I'm hoping the storyline wraps up soon, because there's only enough of Barry getting stomped in the genitals that I can take.

Seriously, how awful would he have looked to us if we didn't know about Siri and the others? Grant sells desperation so well. In my head, I was thinking maybe Nash's device was a bluff, and that he would discretely examine an Iris deemed to be a real thing. Having Eva grab the device through a reflection and setting Barry up to look like a liar and a mirror clone was . .  well, it was creative, but it felt forced. Does that make sense? Thankfully, Cecile uses her secondary metahuman power (the ability to read the entire script), and we wind up with a Barry/Siri fight that was fun to watch. I figured the broken ceiling mirror (please tell me that wasn't always up there) would just cut Barry up. Siri manages to punch him through the reflections. One dramatic scene later, Siri is gone, and Barry and Iris have their An American Tail moment. Cheesy, but it works for them.

I'm a little lost about Bloodwork. Eva needed his blood in order to get back in the real world? Minimum, we got Sendhil munching on scenery. He's good at that, Grant is good at manpain, and Hartley Sawyer is very good at getting hurt in humorous ways.

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, we seemingly get confirmation that Siri and Barry did sleep together, which...we gonna talk about that? I feel like we need to talk about that. 

Think of the ramifications. I mean, I could totally see Iris getting pregnant via Siri and be somewhat okay with forgiving Barry. What then? "Well, Doctor? Is it a boy or girl?" "It's a disco ball."

Edited April 29, 2020 by Lantern7

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Think of the ramifications. I mean, I could totally see Iris getting pregnant via Siri and be somewhat okay with forgiving Barry. What then? "Well, Doctor? Is it a boy or girl?" "It's a disco ball."

Iris: "Don't look at me, Disco Stu was one of my hall passes."

[UNOSEZ]

WellWellWellWellhat's... If I had just read on paper that ending scene.. With stirring music and touching hands via mirror.. I woulda been in a diabetic coma for all the sweet sweet smalchtzy sapiness... But I'll be damned of Gucci Gustin and Candice Prada didn't bring their "A" games for that scene... Hell the whole epi... From Barry's frantic war room speech to Cecile ( loved them together this epi.. GG is great with parents)  to the confrontation with Siri and CP let it loose in the gaslighting scene at star labs.. And definitely in the fight scene and aftermath... The iris in her won out.. She was more and more on the fence even the beginning of the epi when Cecile was with her and read her ( I'm guessing Cecile controls herself with her powers unless somebody is spiking.. Hence Siri asking to be read)  until MirrorMilah shut it down.. Then stiffened up for the gaslighting then lost some will when MirrorMilah killed herself and she talked with blood work.. So the writing was on the wall.. For a sec when her face was coming apart I thought she was transforming into someone new who would go out into the world.. But I guess that woulda been to weird. This does leave lots to explore emotionally for West-Allen when Iris returns... 

I'm guessing the Caitlin plot was because she has to be there for contract reasons

[Chyromaniac]

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

And then... that EPIC fight scene with Siri and Barry - she totally brought out her Terminator 2 knive-arms and sliced Barry up.

I must admit, at first I thought this was a little silly - what is she going to do, poke him to death?  But then it just kept going, and it was like, damn- she’s going to poke him to death!  Props to Grant and Candace for really selling the moment.

[Jediknight]

6 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

WellWellWellWellhat's... If I had just read on paper that ending scene.. With stirring music and touching hands via mirror.. I woulda been in a diabetic coma for all the sweet sweet smalchtzy sapiness... But I'll be damned of Gucci Gustin and Candice Prada didn't bring their "A" games for that scene...

One thing that will always sell those moments, and not make them sappy, are how they've written Barry and Iris.  Barry and Iris have always been there to support each other, they've always believed in the other, from the very beginning.  Even if they argue, they always have unwavering support and belief in the other.  Even when Iris was dating Eddie, she believed in Barry and supported him.  And when Barry was dating Patty, he never lost his belief in Iris or support of her.

They've been each other's lightning rods, for a long time.

Of course all that is in addition to the acting of Patton and Gustin, and their chemistry.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

One thing that will always sell those moments, and not make them sappy, are how they've written Barry and Iris.  Barry and Iris have always been there to support each other, they've always believed in the other, from the very beginning.  Even if they argue, they always have unwavering support and belief in the other.  Even when Iris was dating Eddie, she believed in Barry and supported him.  And when Barry was dating Patty, he never lost his belief in Iris or support of her.

They've been each other's lightning rods, for a long time.

Of course all that is in addition to the acting of Patton and Gustin, and their chemistry.

Not every episode can be a WestAllen episode, but the ones that have a focus on Barry's deepest relationships, the love of his life and his family, tend to be the better episodes. That's always been the heart of the show, IMO. And if they can connect the villain/threat to one of those relationships, they're set.

And yeah, it's fortunate we've got good actors here that can sell these stories.

[adora721]

For some reason the pacing was weird to me, but lent itself to making this episode seem more like a movie thriller. I echo others who thought the Siri/Barry fight was great!  For once, Nash did not annoy me. Not really happy Bloodwork is back. I'm hoping that Allegra's light powers will do away with Bloodwork once and for all.

I'm hoping that Caitlin/Killer Frost's mom will play a part in their season 7 arc as a new ice meta. Susan Walters, the actress who plays her mom is a rather good actress and can sell evil ice meta well. 

I feel bad for Cisco. Mirror Kamilla had no reservations killing herself, which would leave her "beloved" Cisco devastated after losing Cynthia. Just goes to show how feeble the Cisco/Kamilla "love story" really is and it's not believable as being true love.

[Starry]

Why can't we have more episodes like this one?

I wish there was more build-up to Barry's realization and SirI's feelings. Wallace said that SirI's 98% Iris and she's only evil because she's doing Eva's bidding but the pacing has been off. I don't want to complain about the episode because I loved it. What came before is the problem. I needed more breadcrumbs.

But I adored the WestAllen stuff. Barry saying that his watch was always on red because he had been worried about the real Iris being in danger broke my heart.

I watched the fight and the mirror scene more than one time. I love my sappy ship 😭 😍

I felt sorry that SirI died but it was inevitable. Barry cradling her 😭

Bloodwork was a nice surprise even though I am tired of watching versions of Iris get choked out.

Ralph is a sweet friend to Caitlin/Frost. That's the only thing I have to say about her plot.

 

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

Did we?  Or are they gonna pretend like she just meant "sleeping next to him"?

They really need to be clear about this though...

I think she meant sex not just because of what she said but how she said it/her body language. They should explore Barry and Iris' trauma and it's a shame that they won't. The show is too prudish and the writing is basic.

The promo made me nervous. I loved this episode. Don't want a filler to kill the momentum.

[AD35]

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I love that Barry was like "of course its not Iris, Iris makes the worst pancakes on all of Earth 1!"

When Barry and Iris are reunited after all this, I would love for Barry to mention this to Iris as one of the clues that he suspected he wasn't dealing with the real Iris.  

Edited April 29, 2020 by AD35

[SevenStars]

10 minutes ago, AD35 said:

When Barry and Iris are reunited after all this, I would love for Barry to mention this to Iris as one of the clues that he suspected he wasn't dealing with the real Iris.  

I don't think Barry would mention that because he has been forcing down her food just to make her feel better about her cooking. I don't see him messing up that loving gesture, especially when Iris might be feeling a certain type of way about him not realizing it wasn't really her. 

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I think she meant sex not just because of what she said but how she said it/her body language. They should explore Barry and Iris' trauma and it's a shame that they won't. The show is too prudish and the writing is basic.

 

I know it most likely means nothing beyond that scene but the way Barry told Siri to "shut-up" in that moment was interesting to me. He said it with no real heat or hatred.

[Trini]

8 hours ago, AD35 said:

When Barry and Iris are reunited after all this, I would love for Barry to mention this to Iris as one of the clues that he suspected he wasn't dealing with the real Iris.  

I don't think he has to mention that to her specifically, but I do have a scenario in my head:

After Iris is rescued, Barry asks her to make him pancakes as a test;

Barry: *at the table, choking over a plate of lumpy panckes* "MY WIFE!"

😛

Edited April 30, 2020 by Trini
grammar!

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

Why can't we have more episodes like this one?

I wish there was more build-up to Barry's realization and SirI's feelings. Wallace said that SirI's 98% Iris and she's only evil because she's doing Eva's bidding but the pacing has been off. I don't want to complain about the episode because I loved it. What came before is the problem. I needed more breadcrumbs.

 

I needed WAY more breadcrumbs - It's annoying that Wallace focused on crumbs for side characters that was just not needed instead of focusing on the A-plot.  He's trying SO hard to reorient the show around Team Flash that he's losing the heart of the show.  There should have been SO many more little scenes with Barry feeling something was off with Siri or with him staring at the mirror again with Iris on the other side... or Iris just looking forlorn in the mirror universe... or Joe thinking something was off ... for about 4 episodes, Wallace completely DROPPED that thread.

The fact that we got a stupid fight with Nash and Allegra (OMG who CARES Allegra - just get over it already!) rather than more details and breadcrumbs on the A-plot just makes it really sad.

I don't necessarily mind having the characters mixed up in different A vs B plots, but the CORE of the show, Barry and Iris should always come together at the end to give the show it's emotional core back.  Even these scenes with Barry and Iris at Joe's house with the WHOLE team there feel empty because the interactions are watered down and they have no emotional weight without the emotional core of the show being there.

I feel like Wallace is doing the A/B plots to create different shows to please different fandoms and as a result he's pleasing no one and diluting the product in the process.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by phoenics

[phoenics]

14 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I know it most likely means nothing beyond that scene but the way Barry told Siri to "shut-up" in that moment was interesting to me. He said it with no real heat or hatred.

I took it as a pained "shut up" - he was mortified to have shared a bed with her and she's not his wife.  He was already writhing in pain and nearly dead - so it was weak and feeble - but he did not want to hear about the fact that he unknowingly cheated on his wife.

Still not convinced she meant sex - mostly because I know the show isn't going to touch on it.  And I feel like the show doesn't deserve to go there with this because the show refuses to even SHOW more than peck kisses.  You don't get to screw up WestAllen with that and we never get to see them ever have sex.

Ugh.

[BeautifulFlower]

Alright, let's do this.

I don't think Siri was implying sex when she said "sharing your bed". I don't get why people are sticking to only THAT conclusion as if there isn't another one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think she was just talking about sleeping next to him. 

Yes, Siri is like Iris with a few different qualities. However, I think people are forgetting that the clones are connected to Eva as well. They have a psychic connection to her. She said in this episode they feel what she feels. I doubt Eva would want her creation to have sex with Barry. She already had her be very distant with Barry. In order to sell she's Iris, Siri most likely stuck to kisses only.

I definitely believe this as Eva has problems with her own husband. I bet she indirectly had problems with Barry because she's so blinded by her own problems with Carver. Didn't Iris call her on this?

[phoenics]

21 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Alright, let's do this.

I don't think Siri was implying sex when she said "sharing your bed". I don't get why people are sticking to only THAT conclusion as if there isn't another one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think she was just talking about sleeping next to him. 

Yes, Siri is like Iris with a few different qualities. However, I think people are forgetting that the clones are connected to Eva as well. They have a psychic connection to her. She said in this episode they feel what she feels. I doubt Eva would want her creation to have sex with Barry. She already had her be very distant with Barry. In order to sell she's Iris, Siri most likely stuck to kisses only.

I definitely believe this as Eva has problems with her own husband. I bet she indirectly had problems with Barry because she's so blinded by her own problems with Carver. Didn't Iris call her on this?

I think this is a reasonable explanation - my issue is the show could have easily had Barry try to get it on with Iris, only for her to rebuff him or play him off.  It feels like the show missed opportunities to show more moments of disconnection that confused Barry - there were easily a stretch of 4-5 episodes where Barry/Iris barely interacted.

 

[Trini]

19 hours ago, phoenics said:

There should have been SO many more little scenes with Barry feeling something was off with Siri or with him staring at the mirror again with Iris on the other side... or Iris just looking forlorn in the mirror universe... or Joe thinking something was off ... for about 4 episodes, Wallace completely DROPPED that thread.

He drops a lot of threads. He has fixed a few things but he also has the problem (not really new with this season or showrunner, though) of introducing something then not addressing it at all for episodes at a time - while 5 other stories are going on. An ongoing arc should be... ongoing.

[Starry]

This arc lasted way too long and the writers weren't able to believably stretch it out.

About the sex/no sex stuff, the show is in a lose-lose situation. I obviously don't like the idea that Barry and SirI had sex but at the same time I find it very hard to believe that Barry "three nights in a row" Allen went months without having sex with his wife and thought nothing of it. I don't know how long Iris has been stuck in that mirror but it's been almost three months for us and the show tends to follow real time. It's not believable IMO and there should have been some sort of acknowledgement if that is what was happening.

In season 1 Eddie talked about going weeks without having sex with Iris because keeping Barry's secret was making him anxious and that is what led Iris to wonder if Eddie had been cheating on her. But we got nothing of that sort with Barry.

 

On 4/29/2020 at 7:00 AM, ruby24 said:

Yeah, that was confirmation that Mirror Iris slept with Barry- at least they acknowledged it. They probably won't again though, unless Iris is upset about it later.

 

21 hours ago, phoenics said:

I took it as a pained "shut up" - he was mortified to have shared a bed with her and she's not his wife.  He was already writhing in pain and nearly dead - so it was weak and feeble - but he did not want to hear about the fact that he unknowingly cheated on his wife.

I don't know why we are talking about cheating. If Barry and SirI had sex that means he was raped. He didn't cheat.

I think Iris should absolutely be upset that a mirror clone was out there living her life and being intimate with her husband but if they talk about it I don't want Barry's trauma to be swept under the rug because the truth is that he was raped.

These "family show" writers are not equipped to handle this storyline. If there's more to it I'll be positively surprised but I am not holding my breath.

[Trini]

14 minutes ago, Starry said:

I think Iris should absolutely be upset that a mirror clone was out there living her life and being intimate with her husband but if they talk about it I don't want Barry's trauma to be swept under the rug because the truth is that he was raped.

Agreed. Barry's the primary victim in this situation.

10 minutes ago, Starry said:

About the sex/no sex stuff, the show is in a lose-lose situation.

... Of their own making. They refuse to talk about sex - that's one thing - but then they do this storyline where they can't NOT talk about it.

17 minutes ago, Starry said:

These "family show" writers are not equipped to handle this storyline. If there's more to it I'll be positively surprised but I am not holding my breath.

Same. I honestly thought they wouldn't touch it at all; so maybe they will deal with it?

With the similar storyline in Fringe, it took a few episodes for the couple to work things out. Here, I don't know if we'll get those few episodes, plus they tend to put stuff on the back burner.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

This arc lasted way too long and the writers weren't able to believably stretch it out.

About the sex/no sex stuff, the show is in a lose-lose situation. I obviously don't like the idea that Barry and SirI had sex but at the same time I find it very hard to believe that Barry "three nights in a row" Allen went months without having sex with his wife and thought nothing of it. I don't know how long Iris has been stuck in that mirror but it's been almost three months for us and the show tends to follow real time. It's not believable IMO and there should have been some sort of acknowledgement if that is what was happening.

In season 1 Eddie talked about going weeks without having sex with Iris because keeping Barry's secret was making him anxious and that is what led Iris to wonder if Eddie had been cheating on her. But we got nothing of that sort with Barry.

 

 

I don't know why we are talking about cheating. If Barry and SirI had sex that means he was raped. He didn't cheat.

I think Iris should absolutely be upset that a mirror clone was out there living her life and being intimate with her husband but if they talk about it I don't want Barry's trauma to be swept under the rug because the truth is that he was raped.

These "family show" writers are not equipped to handle this storyline. If there's more to it I'll be positively surprised but I am not holding my breath.

You are absolutely right.  Especially about Barry - you're right - he didn't cheat, he was raped.

This show is just going to pretend they didn't sleep together - or ignore it altogether.

I hope someone asks CP and eWallace on twitter if that meant Siri and Barry slept together and if so what kind of impact would that have?  

If the show is claiming Siri slept with Barry and there will be fallout from that, I'm mad because we never get to see Barry/Iris have sex because it's "too grown for the kids" but yet dealing with the fallout from Barry being raped by Siri is A-OK for the kids?

Talk about a crappy payoff, if that happens.

Maybe they'll surprise me and we will get a big #WestAllen reunion whenever that happens and we'll get more than 2 scenes of a kiss leading to something more.

[Trini]

I didn't find this myself, but on Twitter it was pointed out that there's a framed photo of Iris and Kara in Iris' office. You can see it blurry in the background of one of the shots of Iris' computer screen.

That's a cute nod, but I need to see that friendship/crossover onscreen!

[RobertDeSneero]

On 4/29/2020 at 8:44 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think Siri was implying sex when she said "sharing your bed". I don't get why people are sticking to only THAT conclusion as if there isn't another one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think she was just talking about sleeping next to him. 

I think it was ambiguously done, probably intentionally so, where either interpretation makes sense.  It's the sort of thread that shows like this can leave dangling, only to address the implications in a future season.

Of course, if you believe that they had sex, one possible implication is that Siri was metaphorically awakened and started to desire being alive because Barry has a magic penis.  And that means that Cisco either doesn't have a similarly magical penis or that he hasn't had time to sex Kamilla up.

I suppose they could have done it so that one of the clues for Barry that it wasn't Iris is that she was wanted to do something kinky in the bedroom that was unusual for them....which given how vanilla their relationship always seems could be doing a position other than missionary.

[Trini]

I thought it was really good to see Barry gathering evidence, formulating theories, doing science-y things, and generally going a little crazy in order to figure things out and find Iris. And just Barry, not the entire team. The conspiracy theories scene was fun and there's some funny stuff on the boards.

So two-thirds of Team Citizen AND their mirror versions are gone right now -- who's running CCC??

Props to the VFX crew for the Barry/Siri fight and the mirror effects.

On re-watch, I still wasn't feeling sympathetic to Siri with her literal last-minute redemption. Evil Iris has been on my wishlist, so I'd been waiting for her to go full villain and stop pretending, so everything else in that vein I enjoyed! But I guess it's something that every version of Barry & Iris can affect each other.

Iris' "I'm going to kill you!" to Eva after Siri taunted Barry I think might be the angriest/harshest outburst we've heard from her when it comes to Barry?

 

3 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

On 4/29/2020 at 9:44 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think Siri was implying sex when she said "sharing your bed". I don't get why people are sticking to only THAT conclusion as if there isn't another one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think she was just talking about sleeping next to him. 

I think it was ambiguously done, probably intentionally so, where either interpretation makes sense. ...

The only reason it's ambiguous is because the show literally is not allowed to mention "sex" or any euphemisms for sex. At best they can indirectly allude to it. So yes, it's open to interpretation, but it was always going to be, because they were never going to be more specific or direct than that.

[Starry]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

Agreed. Barry's the primary victim in this situation.

Iris is also a victim because the clone stole her life and that should impact her in a major way. I guess my point is that talks about "cheating" and Iris being angry at everyone because it took them this long to realize she'd been replaced would make this arc too unbalanced for me.

 

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

If the show is claiming Siri slept with Barry and there will be fallout from that, I'm mad because we never get to see Barry/Iris have sex because it's "too grown for the kids" but yet dealing with the fallout from Barry being raped by Siri is A-OK for the kids?

I get what you're saying. If we can't get the good stuff why should we get the bad stuff?

But I don't think you'll have to worry about that.

I personally would like them to explore the ramifications because this is the story they decided to write and why even bother doing this to your main couple if you're not going to deal with how that impacts them emotionally? But I don't think the writers can handle the fallout so I'll just enjoy Barry and Iris try to find their way back to each other 🤞🏻

[catrice2]

Can the Flash have one season where a member of the core group or someone who is close to the core group is not an imposter?  This has been done to death on this show an it is so boring and predictable.  I go in and out of the show and no matter how many episodes I miss it is always the same plot. 

[shantown]

13 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Can the Flash have one season where a member of the core group or someone who is close to the core group is not an imposter?

12 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It's a convention of the genre.  Someone pretending to be someone they are not is a very natural storyline when secret identities are a key component. 

Genre trope though it may be, there is such a thing as overuse. This seems to be a recurring theme in The Flash - a trope/plot/twist/whatever works really well once, so they repeat it yearly (often to diminishing returns, IMO). 

 

[marketdoctor]

Quote

Can the Flash have one season where a member of the core group or someone who is close to the core group is not an imposter?

I hope so.  I'm also open with someone having a bad day, and being thought of as an imposter, but just having an off day and a "this isn't the season for that" meta reference (possibly followed up by "It's the season of giving" or "it's SPORTS season" or something).

Or go the other way and

Spoiler

bring in Bizzaro Flash (and have him be completely done deaf/unable to sing, also as a meta-joke.)

Also, CP & Siri really showed that there's a subtle but important line between "EVIL!!!!' and "motivated by something else."  Siri was a long way from good, but she was very "end justifies the means" rather than evil for evil's sake.  That's true of many of this iteration of Flash antagonists, come to think of it.

[phoenics]

22 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Can the Flash have one season where a member of the core group or someone who is close to the core group is not an imposter?  This has been done to death on this show an it is so boring and predictable.  I go in and out of the show and no matter how many episodes I miss it is always the same plot. 

It's so weird - I didn't even think of this storyline with Iris in those terms, but I see what you mean.  I think what made this storyline better than the usual imposter storyline though was that even though there was an imposter(s), the real one(s) is trapped somewhere.  It gave it a different flavor to me - but I guess it was kind of a repeat of previous storylines... except we knew all along that Siri was an imposter.

Honestly I would've loved this whole storyline a lot more if it had had better pacing and just a few more moments each episode connecting to the heart of the show (WestAllen).  If they had just inserted one scene per episode to connect us to that part, this would have been so much better.

But I do think the storyline has been a success - the ratings were apparently quite good.  Probably because of the rona but it was still way up from the week before.

[Trini]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:04 PM, catrice2 said:

Can the Flash have one season where a member of the core group or someone who is close to the core group is not an imposter?...

I think Season 5 counts; but you're right that they keep doing similar plots.

[RedVitC]

Not my full thoughts yet, but let me just start with that last scene. Wow, cried my way through it. Even with Barry and Iris not actually interacting it was still very powerful, or maybe it was made even more powerful because even without knowing they were still saying the same things. I've been listening to that song this week.

(Speaking of, does anyone know if it's more expensive to use songs or to have them write music for the scene? I've noticed they started using a lot more song this season)

[phoenics]

14 hours ago, RedVitC said:

Not my full thoughts yet, but let me just start with that last scene. Wow, cried my way through it. Even with Barry and Iris not actually interacting it was still very powerful, or maybe it was made even more powerful because even without knowing they were still saying the same things. I've been listening to that song this week.

(Speaking of, does anyone know if it's more expensive to use songs or to have them write music for the scene? I've noticed they started using a lot more song this season)

I'd think the songs are more expensive... the licensing fees can be really high.  I don't mind songs when they are perfect for the scene (like that song in S3 when Savitar killed what Barry thought was Iris and they did a slow-motion thing with Iris recording her wedding vows to Barry... that KILLED ME).

I thought the song they used here was okay - but I would have chosen something else, tbh, or gone with an original score - or even reused one from previous episodes - but maybe they did that already when Siri died, so they went with a song instead for the real #WestAllen scene.