S04.E17: Chapter Seventy-Four: Wicked Little Town

[Bort]

After the previous debacles of Carrie and Heathers, Kevin has decided to revive Riverdale High’s tradition of hosting a Variety Show. But when Mr. Honey forbids him from performing a number from Hedwig and the Angry Inch, Kevin and the gang rally against their principal — by each performing a number from Hedwig, turning the Variety Show into a full-fledged musical that, as always, reflects their inner lives and struggles. And amidst all the drama, one forbidden “showmance” begins to blossom.

Airdate: Wednesday, April 15, 2020

[madhacker]

Casey brought it tonight,especially with that liplock with KJ. Even NPH and Darren Criss would agree, but I'm finding it hard to believe that's Cole actually singing.

[Josh371982]

Fuck Betty and Archie. That's all. All the crap they spewed about Jug and Veronica being the only one for them was total bullshit. THEY DID NOT NEED TO HAVE BARCHIE START WITH CHEATING ON JUG AND VERONICA. Sorry I despise cheating in relationships and it's not good drama and its unneeded. Right now I despise them cause I bet they continue this and get too chickenshit and Jug and Veronica find out in a horrible way. I'm wanting Jug and Veronica to kick their ass. And it felt like they wanted me to feel sorry for them with their feelings outta nowhere after their stupid fights with Jug and Veronica. I feel sorry for KJ and Lili though cause I don't do this shit but I bet Nasty comments came from Bughead and Varchie. I shipped both and I cant see how any Barchie fans can be happy it started betraying their supposed great loves 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Josh371982

[HeatLifer]

I always knew KJ and Lili could do this, and was always waiting for RAS to get his head out of his own ass, and now that we are here they’ve exceeded my expectations. Like, wow. That’s all I can get out because I’m too shook. I’ll have better commentary when I’ve actually absorbed it all, bwah.

[opus]

 

The lyrics in the Wicked Little Town reprise are quite appropriate 

And there's no mystical design
No cosmic lover preassigned

[thuganomics85]

Musical time!  I don't know if its just the quarantine making me go easier on things, but I think this might have been my favorite one so far.  It felt like the entire cast were at their best singing wise here.  Don't know if it was simply Hedwig and the Angry Inch's songs being a better fit here or if everyone just has a better understanding now of the cast's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to singing, but I ended up enjoying all of the songs here.

Casey Cott definitely seemed to be enjoying this one.  Granted, I'm sure he's just glad it's not more tickle porn...

I doubt they had this planned when Kerr Smith was initially cast, but I found it interesting that the character being opposed to the performances for being controversial or risque, was being played by the actor who famously played a gay teenager back when it was still controversial (if my memory is serving me correctly: I remember it being a big thing at the time.)  That said, while Mr. Honey continues to be the worst, I did find it amusing how he kept simply thwarted the heroes with the most obvious and simplest solutions, in true deadpan fashion.  I did spot him lurking around in the crowd at the end, so I wonder if he's being set up for more sinister things (maybe he's the one behind the video tapes?)

I know it's a minor thing, but I find it hard to believe that relationship between Betty/Veronica and Cheryl/Toni is at the point that the four would have a sleepover together (along with Kevin.)  I guess I can chalk it up to musical stuff.

Of course, the big reveal is that it looks like the show is actually going to go there with Archie and Betty.  Can't say I'm exactly thrilled over the likely drama that is going to come from it (especially if they continue to hide things from Jughead and Veronica), but I have to say that I was surprisingly digging the chemistry between K.J. Apa and Lili Reinhart: especially when they recreated the school dance scene.

Glad that Fred was brought up again and we even got a glimpse of him via flashback.  I still miss Luke Perry.

I wonder what musical they'll attempt next season?  Maybe they'll attempt to out-Cats Cats?!

 

[AnimeMania]

Who's house where they supposed to be in for the sleep-over or was it just generic bedrooms for musical number house set.

[Josh371982]

Besides my anger at Betty and Archie I will say the video Jughead was watching at the end was probably the most disturbing thing I've seen on the show. 

[SourK]

There's something that just feels right to me about the idea that these four characters start a band and only rehearse once, and half of them don't show up to the rehearsal.

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

That said, while Mr. Honey continues to be the worst, I did find it amusing how he kept simply thwarted the heroes with the most obvious and simplest solutions, in true deadpan fashion. 

I also thought that was funny -- like, if your plan is to protest by having everyone sing Hedwig songs at the talent show, maybe don't keep warning him ahead of time?

Also, not to sound too sympathetic to a character I'm pretty sure we're supposed to hate, but... imagine if you were a principal and this was your school.

6 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

Besides my anger at Betty and Archie I will say the video Jughead was watching at the end was probably the most disturbing thing I've seen on the show. 

Word. That was a very disturbing video, and it made me curious about where this story line's headed. Although I think it's headed toward Charles.

[rmontro]

I see what they were going for, but I wasn't really feeling it for whatever reason.  Maybe it's because I haven't seen Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

Not surprisingly, they're moving forward with the Betty/Archie angle.  Ugh.  I know this was part of the comic book, and it doesn't quite fit the "jump the shark" definition, but this has the potential to sour the whole series IMO.  

Hopefully there will be something interesting with the voyeur plot.  It would be funny if the Stoneys were involved.  Bret had his own fascination with videos, after all.

I was amused by The Archies band, including the acknowledgement of how egotistical it is to name the band after yourself.  Complete with Jughead on drums, and the original drum logo!

[Chicago Redshirt]

Wait, I missed whatever video Jug was watching. Also, I missed if they have gone on to full blown Barchie, or if it is just the teaser for next week's episode.

[Snookums]

AHHHH GOTTA WATCH THIS! I was so used to Riverdale being off the air!

[Snookums]

Quote

That said, while Mr. Honey continues to be the worst, I did find it amusing how he kept simply thwarted the heroes with the most obvious and simplest solutions, in true deadpan fashion.  

Heh, seriously. I love how they kept doing protests and musical numbers at Pops and acting surprised when he goes you know I'm the actual adult in charge, right? And really, Sugar Daddy was great but also, as he said, proved his point. Could anyone make out what book he was reading with his little cup of green tea?

Did anyone see whether Fangs had his kidney removal scar, as well? Every time he and Kevin have a scene I wait for one of them to go wait, aren't we married? Granted, cult-married but it's so weird that NO ONE ever brings that up!

And, sigh....onward to the whole Betty/Archie thing. While I get that this is a soap and soaps thrive on conflict, not contentment and so on, the only real problem I have with this is that Archie and Betty have barely spoken for weeks and weeks, if it wasn't in the context of "bring down terrifying death pact in the private school nobody mentioned until now." The show did its best with the whole "recreate the dance" thing (my God, they looked so young!) to remind us of the whole grew up together secret love in Betty's heart, but in my opinion, while I get why they were reminding us, all it did was point out how much water has gone under the bridge since then. 

So much has happened to these characters that the idea of Archie and Betty together doesn't have the same kind of impact it might once have had. Even if they were both single it wouldn't be the same. 

Things I did like: 

For once, the show not blowing off an important character growth arc and reminding us that Archie still misses his dad, but not making it maudlin or overpowering.

Ronnie lashing out at Archie while knowing even as she's yelling that she's being ridiculous and there was nothing Archie could realistically have done. And her sincere apology later.

Betty holding it together when Jug is being Perfect Boyfriend, then weeping with guilt and shame. 

That terrifying video and Jug's reaction. Of course he'd be terrified!

Questions:

So Charles; do you have a superior officer? Do you ever have to report in to a field office? Does nobody notice you visiting your lover in the town jail and question your associations, being a fed and all?

Why is Jug so far behind on his homework? I know Stonewall was a nightmare but no more so than any other week in this wicked little town, and he did attend classes. Couldn't he transfer his credits from the supposedly superior school? 

It's insane to me how many people in Riverdale have a functional top-loading VCR.

 

[PeekaBoo]

I've returned from a permanent hiatus on this specific board just to yelp OMG THEYRE GOING FOR BARCHIE?!?! Eugh 😑
I'm still digesting what I've just seen but it's been a long time coming. I've been wondering if/when they were going to do that but still wondering whether it's all true or part of that tangerine spell thing... I have absolutely no idea what they're going to do and i'm curious. Kj and Lili played the UST very well, eugh, the chemistry but man... I just hate that it just sort of came out of no where... And it's so unfair, Betty loved the boy for so many fucking years and he ignored her, she moved on, she is/was happy with jug. Why succumb? Eugh... They're kids, i know!!
Oh well, is the next episode the last one they filmed? 

Edited April 16, 2020 by PeekaBoo
repeating myself.

[Auror]

I honestly like Betty/Archie. I rooted for them in early season 1. But then Betty/Jughead happened and their ability to make it work and the stability was refreshing. So I started liking them. However, the Betty/Archie thing still intrigues me because the part of me that loved them in early season 1 is curious and even thankful they will be explored. I don’t like the what might have been thing at all. Now, this won’t be the case. Plus, the show is loosely based on the Comics. It really would be ridiculous having a show based on The Archie Comics without Betty/Archie explored romantically.  

I just wish they were single. At the end of the day though, my favorite character is Betty Cooper. Always has been, always will be. I want what she wants basically. That is partially why I’m open to shipping. 

Betty Stan I am. 😄

[tennisgurl]

How is it that, in all the crazy that went down this week, I was just left asking "how are there still so many VHS players still around?" I know this is kind of set in a weird retro world, but its just so weird seeing people with smart phones right next to people with 80s style video recorders. 

So this is really how we are going to go there with Betty and Archie huh? I am really not a fan of cheating (especially on their respective best friends!) but at this point, this is by far not the worst thing people on this show have done, so I guess I cant clutch my pears too hard. But yeah, I know that the A/B/V triangle is a classic part of the comics, but doing it this way just seems so unpleasant, and it hasn't really been built up very much. Betty and Archie, while certainly childhood best friends, have hardly even spoken to each other in ages, beyond helping fake Jugheads death and fake being a couple to expose his would be real killers (a typical Riverdale weekend) nor have they shown any attraction to each other in the last few seasons, seeming to be pretty much settled into friends territory. Plus, if they really want to give Betty/Archie a spin (before the inevitable Bughead return) this isn't a very good way for them to do it. I could see maybe them getting together if Betty/Jughead and Veronica/Archie had both broken up, and they wanted to go to someone familiar in their sadness, but this was a real mess, and its going to be SUCH drama when Veronica and Jughead find out, and not the fun kind either! I was really hoping to have the core four together again this season, but now its hard to see them together with this big secret hanging over them, and then when it all comes out. The stuff with The Archies was funny though. "The Me Me Mes?" 

As for the musical itself, it was even more outlandish and over the top than usual, to the point where I actually started having questions. Like, how much of this is diegetic and how much of it is non-diegetic within the universe? At least with most of the pointless musical numbers, they are happening as a performance in universe, but this had tons of singing just kind of happening, so what whats the deal? Does Kevin have a tumor and its making him hear stuff? Yeah yeah Riverdale gonna Riverdale, but I still have questions! I am also not really familiar with Hedwin and the Angry Inch (I saw the movie once years ago) so while everyone sounded great, I wasn't super connected with the music and how that fit it with the lives of the characters. 

I know that Mr. Honey is unpleasant and we are supposed to hate him and stuff, but most of the stuff he says and does is...actually pretty reasonable for a principle? The guy hasn't exactly impressed me as an an administrator (yes mr mercenary, please keep trying to kill the students!) but at least he still IS an actual administer, which is pretty good by this shows standards! Yeah, if its just a talent show Kevin could have easily done a song that didn't have a bunch of sex in it, but he wasn't exactly wrong that its a very sexual play that is probably not super appropriate for teens at a school event, and Cheryl didn't do much to not prove his point when she sang him a song about sugar daddies. Or punishing students for bringing alcohol to campus, or trying to hire an actual cheerleading coach who is an actual adult, I dont see how these things are so draconian so much as they are common sense. Also, him saying no to the song about sugar daddies makes him "queerphobic"? Really Cheryl? Thats almost as ridiculous as the Mussolini comment. 

That last video actually was really creepy, one of the more off-putting moments the show has done in ages, in a good way.

[Quark]

I love these musical episodes. They're hilarious.

[HeatLifer]

1 hour ago, Auror said:

I honestly like Betty/Archie. I rooted for them in early season 1. But then Betty/Jughead happened and their ability to make it work and the stability was refreshing. So I started liking them. However, the Betty/Archie thing still intrigues me because the part of me that loved them in early season 1 is curious and even thankful they will be explored. I don’t like the what might have been thing at all. Now, this won’t be the case. Plus, the show is loosely based on the Comics. It really would be ridiculous having a show based on The Archie Comics without Betty/Archie explored romantically.  

I just wish they were single. At the end of the day though, my favorite character is Betty Cooper. Always has been, always will be. I want what she wants basically. That is partially why I’m open to shipping. 

Betty Stan I am. 😄

I’m with you. I’m thoroughly enjoying this. I think this is exactly the kind of shakeup the show needed. I’m looking forward to seeing the angst and the fallout from this complication of feelings. KJ and Lili’s chemistry is fantastic and seeing a new dynanmic between Betty and Archie will be super intriguing, especially if they’re sneaking around and/or attempting to keep their distance because they know nothing good will come if they’re in the same vicinity.

I think depending on how someone has watched Riverdale, people will either love/hate this but either way the extreme reaction is what RAS is most likely going for.

As far as whether it makes sense because Barchie didn’t share scenes at the beginning of the season? I think Barchie is more about the teases that were thrown in since S1. In particular, more recently, 309 is a very interesting episode to watch again. The fake dating thing worked for me cause they always had buried feelings but could never act on them properly due to reasons related to timing, being in a relationship, etc. The kiss in the music room just sent everything to hell because it raised those feelings again.

But I also get if people say they think it needed more development, I just think Barchie’s story was always more intentionally subtle.

Edited April 16, 2020 by HeatLifer

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

But I also get if people say they needed more development, I just think Barchie’s story was always more intentionally subtle.

I would argue that it's more unintentionally subtle. I have no doubt that the show planned to explore Barchie again, but I don't think they were ever planting subtle clues throughout the series. Once in a while, yes, it was clear that they were pointing toward Barchie. But I think a lot of it was more unintentional. Again, because this is Riverdale and the show's writing is questionable, at best. They barely show the supporting characters for more than a couple of scenes. They can't have Toni interacting with anyone but Cheryl. Kevin can't appear for more than one scene every few episodes, except for the musical episodes. The Core Four go through periods where they don't even speak to each other for episodes. 

So, with regards to Barchie, they needed to build it up more and they didn't. They had an opportunity with Jughead being off at another school, for example, and they didn't capitalize on more Barchie scenes. And I think that's why this particular development DOES feel out of nowhere. If they just had Betty and Archie share scenes together well before the episode where they were exchanging texts, it would help. Yes, they finally started building up toward this episode about two-three episodes ago, which is better than nothing, but it's also not enough. 

Oh yeah, I also didn't watch this episode (as per my usual tradition of not watching the musical episodes) but caught a couple of clips here and there online. 

And, also, yeah, not a fan of cheating storylines. I do feel bad for KJ and Lili, who have done nothing wrong and now their characters are doing something pretty horrible. And Betty/Archie have been my two favourite characters on this show....so now my opinion is definitely shifting. I know it's just a show, but I don't have a lot about Riverdale that I genuinely like and am not snarking at or just plain hate. Betty and Archie as characters were the last two characters who I genuinely enjoyed watching. But now? I don't know. Even watching the clip of their kiss, the actors desperately tried to sell it but...again, they're still cheating. I know, in a show with questionable morals, this is still a relatively low crime, but...it's still hard to watch.

And yeah, I know Bughead and Varchie will get back together soon enough (or next season or whatever) but I don't know how I feel at the idea of Veronica and Jughead deciding to forgive Betty and Archie completely for this and moving on. 

The only way this works is if they end their relationships with Jughead and Veronica next episode, give dating a try but then ultimately realize that they're better off as friends. As, again, I doubt Betty/Archie will actually be together for the rest of the series so this is all just teasing for the Barchie fans (and, yeah, I was a comic Barchie fan back in the day). They just needed to find a better way to explore Barchie that didn't have them cheating on their loved ones. 

And we're back to "This is Riverdale" so the writing for this was always going to be crap, and they will wrap this romance up as quick as it began, as per usual for this show. 

Honestly, they should have explored Barchie last season, after Archie returned from being attacked by a bear. Although....scratch that, because I thoroughly enjoyed Josie/Archie from the episodes I saw of them (I keep quitting before the end of these seasons).

[HeatLifer]

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, they should have explored Barchie last season, after Archie returned from being attacked by a bear. Although....scratch that, because I thoroughly enjoyed Josie/Archie from the episodes I saw of them (I keep quitting before the end of these seasons).

I loved Archie/Josie so I dunno if I’d want that erased, but I never understood why Barchie couldn’t happen in S2 or S3.

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

And yeah, I know Bughead and Varchie will get back together soon enough (or next season or whatever) but I don't know how I feel at the idea of Veronica and Jughead deciding to forgive Betty and Archie completely for this and moving on. 

I don’t know how far the cheating will go, but Jughead and Veronica shouldn’t forgive. The storyline if done correctly should go into next season and have a proper fallout.

And, yeah, it’s a mistake for Barchie to act on these feelings, it’s a betrayal. But I think it’s far deeper and more complicated and they’re 18? years old. I think a mistake this show took very early on is giving fans this impression that Varchie and Bughead were practically married. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I would argue that it's more unintentionally subtle. I have no doubt that the show planned to explore Barchie again, but I don't think they were ever planting subtle clues throughout the series.

I don't think they expected the Bughead pairing to ever be as successful as it was.  Most likely because of the real life chemistry between the actors, at least in part.  

It would have been more palatable if the pairs had broken up before getting Barchie together (although I don't care to see it either way), but I guess that wouldn't be much fun from a drama standpoint.

[ruby24]

So we're really going through with Betty/Archie this time, huh? This sort of reminds me of when Xander and Willow got together briefly on Buffy in the end of Season 3 behind Oz and Cordelia's backs. Of course that ended up ruining both couples for good, which I doubt will happen here (it seems too obvious to me that Betty and Jughead are THE couple on this show). 

But the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle was almost the defining feature of the original comics, so I appreciate any nods to that comics stuff. I also wouldn't mind seeing Veronica be a little more of the the badass, single, "drive all men crazy" bitch that she's supposed to  be. 

On the other hand, I do love Betty and Jughead and don't see any other true love option for either at least in terms of the show itself, so the Betty/Archie thing I'm choosing to see as a nod to comics canon and will likely be a brief sojourn. 

I like the musical episodes, but all I wanted was to see The Archies sing "Sugar, Sugar," (this HAS to happen at some point, right? Right?). But Reggie's supposed to be in that band too, damnit! He's the bassist.

[angora]

5 hours ago, Snookums said:

Why is Jug so far behind on his homework? I know Stonewall was a nightmare but no more so than any other week in this wicked little town, and he did attend classes. Couldn't he transfer his credits from the supposedly superior school? 

I think it's from all the time he spent pretending to be dead, hiding out in the bunker.

It's insane to me how many people in Riverdale have a functional top-loading VCR.

OMG, yes!

Well, that was a thing. It was weird to me that Mr. Honey's stance with Kevin seemed to be "you can't do a song from Hedwig because that musical is inappropriate" rather than "the song you want to do from Hedwig is inappropriate." I mean, if he wanted to do "Sugar Daddy" or "Angry Inch," sure, but "Midnight Radio?" "Wicked Little Town?" "Tear Me Down?" Plenty of songs from that show that aren't sexual, and banning ANYTHING from the musical seems to rely a lot on the population of Riverdale having more context knowledge of cult musicals than I give them credit for. And when Mr. Honey suggested Kevin do something from Oklahoma instead, it would've been fun to have Kevin reply, "Great idea! Should I sing the song where the hero is trying to convince another guy to kill himself?" Also, there's an alternate world where Kevin goes on to sing "I'm Just a Girl Who Cain't Say No." Take that, Mr. Honey!

A lot of the singing was great. Casey was terrific, KJ sounded really good on the faster rock numbers, and Cheryl/Toni & co. slayed "Sugar Daddy" (even though, yes, that was the WRONG song to convince Mr. Honey that it was appropriate for school.) The girls and Kevin also sounded really good in "Wig in a Box." I will say, though, I cried blasphemy on "Midnight Radio" when KJ didn't take the higher notes on, "Like a dream or a song that hits you so hard, / Filling you up, and suddenly gone," ditto the next stanza.

But I dunno. Either a lot of these songs were too difficult to fit organically into the story the episode was telling, or the episode just didn't do the necessary work to make them fit. Take "Exquisite Corpse." I feel like that's a song that could pair really well with a storyline about teen body image issues, or maybe cutting, but putting it with "Bughead and Varchie are really mad and smashing stuff!!!!" just made it feel like Generic Angry!! Song. I don't recall enough about the storyline from the Carrie episode, but I feel like the Heathers songs made more sense for the characters in context. It could also just be because this is the first time I've gone into a Riverdale musical episode knowing all the songs intimately - maybe they benefited from my relative ignorance for their previous musicals?

And my goodness, what did they do to poor "Origin of Love"? It's not just that they snipped it to pieces (that's typical of most music performances on TV shows, and "Origin of Love" is a long song to start with,) it's that they then rearranged those pieces willy-nilly. Why??? I can't tell if anyone who didn't know the song would be able to follow what it's about.

All that said, I laughed at the gang ragging on Archie for the band name, and I loved that the variety show was called "Less Trauma, More Drama" - if any school needs that, it's Riverdale High!

[SourK]

7 minutes ago, angora said:

It was weird to me that Mr. Honey's stance with Kevin seemed to be "you can't do a song from Hedwig because that musical is inappropriate" rather than "the song you want to do from Hedwig is inappropriate."

I agree. I think it was a way to make sure we knew he was being transphobic as fast as possible, but, from a storytelling POV, the obvious counter-argument would have been "What's wrong with the specific song I chose?" and it's annoying that no one even tried that.

Also, I just personally dislike this Glee thing where one of the characters claims that a certain album perfectly speaks to their entire generation as a way to intro the episode. Maybe put more effort into making the songs serve as an interesting compliment or juxtaposition to the story, and let us judge that for ourselves.

7 minutes ago, angora said:

The girls and Kevin also sounded really good in "Wig in a Box."

Though, they did miss the comedy gold that comes from having dark Betty sing a song about how putting on a wig can cheer you up.

[rmontro]

Riverdale is supposed to be a small town, but apparently there is a big surplus of Hedwig wigs and costumes.

I like Jughead, but he acted like an idiot in this episode.  He's behind on his studies, so his response is to spend his time on more junior crime sleuthing.

[Snookums]

Quote

And when Mr. Honey suggested Kevin do something from Oklahoma instead, it would've been fun to have Kevin reply, "Great idea! Should I sing the song where the hero is trying to convince another guy to kill himself?" Also, there's an alternate world where Kevin goes on to sing "I'm Just a Girl Who Cain't Say No." Take that, Mr. Honey!

Ha, you should write for this show! Scenes like this one would go a long way in improving actual character development.

Quote

Riverdale is supposed to be a small town, but apparently there is a big surplus of Hedwig wigs and costumes.

It must be the same shop that had five hundred elaborate Gargoyle King Game costumes available at a moment's notice last season. Riverdale reminds me of the old Batman TV show's Gotham, that had no apparent economic base beyond thousands of closed down umbrella and hot dog factories and two diamond stores.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, angora said:

Also, there's an alternate world where Kevin goes on to sing "I'm Just a Girl Who Cain't Say No." Take that, Mr. Honey!

That would be funny.  But I think Cheryl would also be a good choice to sing that, as her number to perform for Mr. Honey at Pop's.  Surrounded by dancing Vixens in short shorts, of course.  

Call me old fashioned, but I would have preferred to see the cast performing songs from Oklahoma than Hedwig and the Angry Inch.  Archie could sing about his jalopy with the fringe on top.

[methodwriter85]

Damn, Kevin looked great in the 1963 Beehive look. I'm glad Casey finally got to showcase his voice.

[HeatLifer]

KJ’s voice has improved so much, did a bit of a rewatch and he really nailed some of vocals. Pretty cool to see that progression because I know he hates his own voice, lol.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

KJ’s voice has improved so much, did a bit of a rewatch and he really nailed some of vocals. Pretty cool to see that progression because I know he hates his own voice, lol.

That first song he sang he sounded kind of tone deaf, but then he sounded really good on the rest of them.

[methodwriter85]

6 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

KJ’s voice has improved so much, did a bit of a rewatch and he really nailed some of vocals. Pretty cool to see that progression because I know he hates his own voice, lol.

I'm assuming he worked on his voice when he filmed "I Still Believe."

[Imdee]

On 4/16/2020 at 6:34 PM, ruby24 said:

I like the musical episodes, but all I wanted was to see The Archies sing "Sugar, Sugar," (this HAS to happen at some point, right? Right?). But Reggie's supposed to be in that band too, damnit! He's the bassist.

I grew up reading Archie comics in the 70's, so I agree!  It has really bothered me that Reggie doesn't seem to be a main character.  Yeah, he's a bit of a jerk, he was in the comics too, but he was still their friend and a part of the Archies band!  I also wanted to see them sing "Sugar Sugar."  They could have sung "Jingle Jangle," but considering the show, that would have been really controversial! 

[MaggieG]

I liked that the number t-shirts they wore during Random Number Generation were character appropriate. Archie was wearing a regular shirt, Betty was wearing a sweater, Cheryl's was low cut and she had a red number and Toni's was a crop top.

I'm not too bothered about Barchie. After everything the show has thrown at us, this isn't too shocking. Betty has had feelings for Archie since they were kids, she was pretty much in love with him until she started dating Jug. While I think she loves Jug, I do think those feelings for Archie never truly went away.

[Josh371982]

8 hours ago, MaggieG said:

I liked that the number t-shirts they wore during Random Number Generation were character appropriate. Archie was wearing a regular shirt, Betty was wearing a sweater, Cheryl's was low cut and she had a red number and Toni's was a crop top.

I'm not too bothered about Barchie. After everything the show has thrown at us, this isn't too shocking. Betty has had feelings for Archie since they were kids, she was pretty much in love with him until she started dating Jug. While I think she loves Jug, I do think those feelings for Archie never truly went away.

I'm bothered by Barchie cause they are cheating assholes. Those feelings never went away? Must not love Jug then. Its fucked up because of all people she and he cheat with their best friends girl/man. They couldve done Barchie another way. Not this gross cheating. Just looks like Jug was right after all Archie suddenly out of nowhere wants her and shes now dropping Jug. RAS did not have to make Archie and Betty shitty people. These out of nowhere feelings are BS and Barchie is defintely not a couple I'm rooting for.

[rmontro]

54 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

They couldve done Barchie another way. Not this gross cheating.

Yeah, I expected they'd at least have the courtesy of breaking up the two couples before getting Betty and Archie together.  The two couples did each have a big fight, but it wasn't enough to keep them from looking so bad.

[Josh371982]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, I expected they'd at least have the courtesy of breaking up the two couples before getting Betty and Archie together.  The two couples did each have a big fight, but it wasn't enough to keep them from looking so bad.

Plus the fights to me were stupid with this out of nowhere instafeelings between Archie and Betty and them making it seem like we're supposed to feel sorry like Jug and Veronica are bad people while they moon at each other made me sick. Just 2 episodes ago these two assholes were telling Jug and Veronica there was no one else and there was nothing there. Just makes me want Jug and Veronica to find out and and tear into them/ dump there asses. No RAS I don't feel sorry for Betty and Archie and wont root for them either. Betty and Archie love Jug and Veronica My ass. Betty literally Is doing what Jug said in Anger back in season 1. 

[rmontro]

28 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

Just makes me want Jug and Veronica to find out and and tear into them/ dump there asses.

The only thing about this whole Barchie storyline that I find interesting is whether or not there is going to be Jughead and Veronica revenge sex.

[HeatLifer]

LOL, Barchie isn’t being written to win over Bughead and Varchie fans. They’re not expecting people who view Riverdale in that way to welcome them with open arms and root for them.

Objectively, I find this story highly entertaining and the actors sold it. Some of the most beautiful scenes this show has done. I’m excited to see the fallout because Cole and Cami will kill that, too. This is such a complicated story that is deeper than labeling it as an expose on cheaters. They didn’t cheat to cheat or because of a random fight. Feelings when you’re a teen are highly exaggerated and something spontaneous happened that was building for a long time.

[RS3]

I thought the fake dating trope was a pretty big sign that barchie was a go but I see a lot of people being surprised by the "quick" pace of their development. Archie being flirty with Betty through text and second guessing himself was the big neon sign for Archie's feelings, and Cheryl calling out Betty for making the fake dating look too real was the big neon sign for Betty's feelings. Veronica saying to a camera that she trusts Betty and Archie right before the texting scene... Both Veronica and Jughead asking them the same question and coincidentally... Betty & Archie responding the same way. It was serious foreshadowing. 

Cheating is the icky part, sure. But honestly I couldn't have seen this storyline go any another way than a spontaneous overwhelming SURPRISE first real kiss. Let's remember how they've baited barchie fans in season 2. The main couples broke up and they shared this charged moment at their windows with the romantic song in the background while Jughead's voiceover was implying that Archie was seeing her in a new light. Betty and Archie kissed in the next episode but they never talked about it again and used the pretense of a my-life-is-being-threatened kind of kiss. Bait and switch. It was already a problem they immediately found solace in each other when they weren't with their partners, especially Betty because she initiated. It meant there were some deeply repressed non platonic feelings. But the same thing happened again, the couples fought and barchie crossed the line again, only this time they're both aware they can't walk back. It's not to say they don't also love their respective bf/gf but if they wanted to give barchie a real shot that would make sense within their story, it needed to be a surprise for them too. I haven't been hyped about an episode in a long time. Finally, the teen drama I initially signed up for.

[MaggieG]

Cheating isn't cool but this is also a show where an organ harvesting cult leader tried to escape in a rocket while wearing an Evel Knievel outfit. Let's not forget all the Gargoyle kings and Jason Blossom's corpse. Is cheating really that far-fetched? If this was a regular teen drama, I might be more upset but this is Riverdale and I'm just along for the ride IMO

[CabotCove]

Quote

And yeah, I know Bughead and Varchie will get back together soon enough (or next season or whatever) but I don't know how I feel at the idea of Veronica and Jughead deciding to forgive Betty and Archie completely for this and moving on. 

Is it really that inevitable?, I dont know about that. Why would they risk so much to put Betty and Archie together, if they are not planning to make this the new status quo. They know that they are going to piss of Bughead and Varchie fans by putting these two together. And to make them cheat on Jughead and Veronica, they are making both characters [B/A] jerks and cheating is not always something couples can easily come back from. This show doesnt always aim to make sense, but they are risking too much by setting their 2 popular ships on fire,  as well as risking the friendship between the core four.

I dont know..., they might be planning to make Betty and Archie a serious main couple, but hey they can always walk it back, if the backlash from shippers gets too much for them. I wonder if  this new turn to B/A has something to do with Lily and Cole breaking up, maybe they are not comfortable anymore being a couple onscreen. Thats something that can cause a show to change direction.  Just speculating here...

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[HeatLifer]

@RS3 Couldn’t have said it any better. This was all very clearly foreshadowed since 411 and it was bound to happen since the absolute beginning. The cheating happening makes sense because it was something they would never be able to acknowledge otherwise. They hid the feelings so deeply that when they fake dated it just all came flooding back. Then they got caught up in a moment during a love song. This isn’t about not loving Jughead or Veronica, but it’s moreso about them uncovering their own love they have for each other that was always there. The promo for the next episode has me on the edge of my seat, lol.

1 hour ago, CabotCove said:

I wonder if  this new turn to B/A has something to do with Lily and Cole breaking up, maybe they are not comfortable anymore being a couple onscreen. T

I refuse to get into another Lili/Cole debacle, lol, but their relationship either way should not affect the show. Barchie was always something that would happen regardless.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, MaggieG said:

Let's not forget all the Gargoyle kings and Jason Blossom's corpse. Is cheating really that far-fetched?

The problem with Barchie isn't that it's far fetched.  But sometimes it might be beneficial if you keep your main characters likable on some level.  I'm sure this was in the plan all along, to follow the comics, but I would say this show took on a life of its own, and the Bughead relationship probably became more successful and genuine than maybe they ever intended.  As such, maybe they're going to irritate some viewers, but I wouldn't dismiss that either.  It's not usually a good idea to tick off your hardcore fans.

[HeatLifer]

I don’t see any scenario where a Bughead or Varchie fan would find Barchie likeable or plot where they’d be accepted by these fans. That’s a losing battle.

I don’t think the cheating makes them super likeable but I also don’t think it makes them unlikeable. Their feelings are real. It would be far more unrootable if they cheated just cause of hormones. 

[Cranberry]

I don't care about any of the couples on this show so I have no strong feelings about whatever love quadrangles they want to do, but I think that saying they planned or foreshadowed anything is giving the writers way too much credit. I'm not surprised by this development after watching 4x15, but that's only two episodes ago. Before that, we had every reason to believe that Betty was devoted to Jughead.

[HeatLifer]

It was foreshadowed since 411, if we are exclusively referring to this season, when they were holding hands at Pop’s. From that moment, people began to speculate about whether or not it was real. Because it was obviously meant to look romantic. Turns out, while it happened during the time they pretending to date, the feelings were real.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not Betty is devoted to Jughead. She loves Jughead. But feelings that she always felt for Archie resurfaced.  All these things can be true simultaneously.

It’s  not about giving the writers credit —it’s more about how each viewer watched Riverdale and what they picked up on or didn’t. My vision of the show just happened to coincide with the story they’re telling now. I don’t see it as a surprise. 

[Cranberry]

I suppose you're right; it's all about how we interpret different scenes. At the time, I assumed the 4x11 hand-holding was part of whatever plot Jughead and Betty had cooked up, as I knew the show wouldn't actually kill off Jughead and was pretty sure Betty was fully aware he was alive. Looking back at it now, I don't consider that public performance to be foreshadowing for Betty and Archie actually hooking up, but I see how others could.

[RS3]

15 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I don’t see any scenario where a Bughead or Varchie fan would find Barchie likeable or plot where they’d be accepted by these fans. That’s a losing battle.

I don’t think the cheating makes them super likeable but I also don’t think it makes them unlikeable. Their feelings are real. It would be far more unrootable if they cheated just cause of hormones. 

exactly... Say barchie somehow realized they had feelings for each other during the fake dating after suppressing them for years, and confessed to their partners, whom they love, and risk hurting them or even losing them without being sure about their own feelings for each other. It's cruel too because barchie's friendship has always been the biggest insecurity for J & V and barchie would be aware of the worst case scenario which is losing their partners, their best friends, and their own friendship over unresolved feelings that might not lead anywhere unless they explore them. They can't do it without breaking up with J & V. Like Jughead said, it only takes one match to set the core 4 on fire and it was always going to be barchie. It's not a coincidence they set it in motion right before they go off to college. 

The backlash was always gonna be: but how could Betty/Archie do that to Jughead/Veronica with their best friend ?!? (they're also best friends with each other) It came out of nowhere?!? (it did not) J & V deserve better! no matter how it happened. At least, this way the audience gets high drama, high stakes, higher rewards, and it makes sense from a characterization point. We'll see how they handle "the talk" and how they move forward in the next episode but intent makes all the difference. They never intended to hurt their partners because they didn't see it coming so I can't see this as character assassination. No matter how much I wish my favorite teenage characters were perfect or were treated perfectly all the time by their teenage loved ones, it's not realistic. If Barchie get together down the line, IMO it doesn't negate what Bughead/Varchie had and vice versa. 

[rmontro]

14 hours ago, RS3 said:

It came out of nowhere?!? (it did not) 

Foreshadowing from earlier in the season aside, I would say that it did come out of nowhere for Archie.  Betty apparently had a long standing crush on Archie (which dates back to the first episode IIRC?), but I don't remember seeing any indication that Archie ever reciprocated any of those feelings.

Anyway, unless Barchie is the endgame (which I highly doubt), this just seems like a cheap, tawdry fling by two people who can't control their impulses.  Especially if Betty truly does love Jughead.  Archie and Veronica are probably going to end up together also, but I've never seen them as being as strong a couple as Bughead.

[HeatLifer]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

but I don't remember seeing any indication that Archie ever reciprocated any of those feelings.

1x13, 2x08, 2x09, 3x09...just off the top of my head.

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

this just seems like a cheap, tawdry fling by two people who can't control their impulses. 

Not sure how that last scene by their windows gave any impression of cheap or tawdry, but to each their own. I’m also not sure what endgames have to do with anything because it’s a long running program and Bughead and Varchie were due for breakups and other relationships.

16 hours ago, RS3 said:

They never intended to hurt their partners because they didn't see it coming so I can't see this as character assassination. No matter how much I wish my favorite teenage characters were perfect or were treated perfectly all the time by their teenage loved ones, it's not realistic

This.