S06.E15: The Exorcism of Nash Wells

[Trini]

The Flash takes on a dangerous new meta named Sunshine (guest star Natalie Sharp). Cisco sets out to help Nash.

Eric Dean Seaton directed the episode written by Lauren Barnett & Sterling Gates.

Airdate: 3/17/2020

[Primal Slayer]

 

I really like Sunshine...not sure why they always have the villains not caring about any kind of secret identity.

Didnt pay 100% attention to the Wells storyline so.....all of the multiverse Wells are managing to use Nash as a conduit? And survive in their own way?

[bluemm]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

..all of the multiverse Wells are managing to use Nash as a conduit? And survive in their own way?

Why only Nash? Why not the multiverse doppelgangers for everyone on E Prime?

 

[shantown]

"What happens to all the other Wells'?"
"They'll be tortured by Thawne forever"

Well then they'll know how I feel watching this show. Tortured forever by a thousand versions of Wells.

Enjoyed everything else this week though! Siri was good, Barry using his brain was really good, Sunshine was good for a meta case of the week that also tied into the larger season mystery/villain. 

[UNOSEZ]

Just now, bluemm said:

Why only Nash? Why not the multiverse doppelgangers for everyone on E Prime?

 

Maybe cuz he was pariah for a while?... Dunno

[Trini]

Well, I skipped most of the Nash stuff; but thanks for all the manpain, reminding us how y'all killed off Nora, Cynthia, and whatever Allegra's doppelganger's name is.

But bonus points for remembering that Joni exists... somewhere.

With all the Nora mentions this season, I really hope they booked Jessica P. K. for a guest spot.

No Iris.  :-/  But at least there was movement with Siri/Eva. I feel like there might be more mirror-clones that we don't know about? Really surprised they didn't show us where or what happened to Kamilla.

LOL at Joe having to remind Siri that she has a husband! But now he notices now, too, so let's please put the pieces together soon! I hate that Iris is away from everyone.

Good to see Singh again! Sunshine had cool powers. But yeah, why would Carver steal back his own tech? Eh - Frost getting hurt wasn't your fault Barry, she was going to lose that fight in any case.

They mentioned Tina McGee!

So Black Hole is really all about the lady assassins, huh? Ultraviolet, Dr. Light, Sunshine, ... and maybe Sue Dibny? Okay, Sue's not an assassin, but she's associated with them.

 

[phoenics]

Once again, a storyline that should have a major Iris focus is more focused on plot stuff.

Thoughts:

1. So Cecile can sense all that going on in Nash, but she can't tell Siri is a lying liar who lies and isn't IRIS?!?!
2. So Eva can pass fake spectrothingee to Siri, but she can't just walk out of the mirror herself?  
3. Yay Captain Singh!!
4. Siri is the mole, right?  She downloaded all that stuff from Joe's computer an episode or so back.
5. Siri gave a good pep talk.
6. Caitlin acts like she's Barry's mom.
7. Barry telling Caitlin and Cisco about Nora was all kinds of wrong.  The writers keep having him have way inappropriate conversations with people that aren't his wife.  That Nora convo should have been with Iris. Barry has talked to Reverse Flash, Bloodwork, Cisco and Caitlin about NORA than he has to his own wife.  These writers are really bothering me.
8. TeamFlash infantilizes Barry - he keeps having to ask them about simple stuff he should know by now.  Barry is still being dumbed down to keep Cisco/Caitlin relevant.
9. If Joe figures out that's not Iris before Barry does I will riot.
10. When Iris does finally get out, she should serve Barry divorce papers.  Dumb ass.

 

Another thought:  I don't think Barry will figure Siri out before he's told she's in that mirror.  Or if he does figure it out, it won't be due to him just "knowing" something is wrong and investigating.  Siri will do something blatant - forcing him to look into it.  Honestly, that's just not good enough and a really poor way of doing a storyline with characters who are supposed to be "soulmates/lightning rods".

Last thought:  I don't think Iris is going to get out of the mirror in 6.17.  I think that's how Barry finally finds out - when Eva gets out and reveals her evil plan and maybe she and Siri rag on Barry for not knowing he was sleeping with the enemy.  At this point, I'm so mad Barry hasn't figured this out or even gotten suspicious enough to check that I WANT him to SUFFER.

Edited March 18, 2020 by phoenics

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So Eva can pass fake spectrothingee to Iris, but she can't just walk out of the mirror herself?  

Yeah - I don't see how it took her 6 years to get this far. What are the rules for the mirrorverse??

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yeah - I don't see how it took her 6 years to get this far. What are the rules for the mirrorverse??

No idea at all.

In that other episode when she put her hands through the mirror, she got burned.  This time, nothing?  Can she manipulate the mirror to burn?  Because she clearly did it to keep her and Iris there, but seriously why?  

Tonight made it seem like she could just walk out on her own.

 

[Primal Slayer]

18 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yeah - I don't see how it took her 6 years to get this far. What are the rules for the mirrorverse??

People can come in but cant come out from the looks of it.

[BeautifulFlower]

17 minutes ago, phoenics said:

No idea at all.

In that other episode when she put her hands through the mirror, she got burned.  This time, nothing?  Can she manipulate the mirror to burn?  Because she clearly did it to keep her and Iris there, but seriously why?  

Tonight made it seem like she could just walk out on her own.

 

Mirror Iris was the one who put her hand through the mirror. We never saw Eva do it this episode. It seems the copies can come in and out, but Eva can't.

[BeautifulFlower]

I get people are frustrated. I get people have different opinions from everybody. However, I feel people are being TOO harsh on Barry not figuring out Mirror Iris. Answer me this: exactly WHAT is there for Barry to be suspicious over?

In 6x11, he was the first to notice something was off. Yet, people are acting like he has never noticed anything. When he questioned things, Siri had good comebacks to explain changes. 

Siri is manipulative. She is playing everybody. She has Iris memories and knows exactly how to act like her. Just look at her in this episode. She actually gave a good pep talk that Iris would give.

So why are we being harsh on Barry? Why are we asking for Iris to be mad at him? Siri hasn't done anything lately for him to be suspicious of.

The same goes for Joe.

[Lantern7]

Tonight: MANPAIN!!! Because when we're miserable with our own lives, we need to see fictional characters shed manly tears yet again. Sadly, Grant Gustin does that so well, so the script can be forgiven. Mostly. Oh, and Capt. Singh reminds us he still exists.

1 hour ago, Trini said:

. . . whatever Allegra's doppelganger's name is.

Argella? Arugula? Yeah, I got nothin'.

[adora721]

So, Black Hole thinks Killer Frost is some kind of asset. Guess they don't know how many losses she has in her history. The pumping up of KF just doesn't ring true especially coming from the woman who just beat her easily. 

[Primal Slayer]

18 minutes ago, adora721 said:

So, Black Hole thinks Killer Frost is some kind of asset. Guess they don't know how many losses she has in her history. The pumping up of KF just doesn't ring true especially coming from the woman who just beat her easily. 

Their track record hasnt been the best either.

[adora721]

I did like that Barry used his brain throughout and thought of using Nora's diary in the end. I still think Chester should be included in the creation of a new speed force. 

Since they made it sound like Thawne's consciousness is out there looking for a new body, why not find Hunter Zolomon's doppleganger. In the comics these two are often intertwined. I liked Teddy Sears in S2, or perhaps bring back the real Eobard actor, Matt Letscher. Matt was even scarier than Tom's.

[RedVitC]

Where was Ralph? He's only been in 1 episode in 6b. I don't get what is going on with the regulars this season.

I think the mirror plot is cool, but I think they could be doing so much more with the other side of the mirror. We could be seeing Iris on this entire journey on the other side exploring that verse, finding mirrors, trying to get out, but so far it's mostly been her in that room and their solutions have been very conversation - try - fail - conversation.

There was something off about Singh this episode. 

About Iris' reaction, when real Iris has had a chance to react so far to seeing Siri with her family it seems her main concern has been that they're being manipulated and not that they don't know (in 6x11 while she yelled it wasn't her, first she yelled at Siri to get away from him, in 6x14 my impression was that she was mostly concerned for them). 

I think we'll get some plot on that, though,  if only because Eva herself seems to resents her husband and ever so subtly seems to be trying to push Iris in the direction of resenting her own family (I hope your family doesn't forget you as quickly etc). 

 

For me, I'm not mad at Barry (and personally I'm not at all into the idea of a big how could you not know it wasn't me storyline) and I think it should certainly be noted that Barry is also being harmed by Siri's actions. I think everything so far makes sense as to why he hasn't caught on. As someone mentioned, he almost immediately noticed something was off but got so much backlash that ironically he now feels questioning any change in her is him being a bad, unsupportive husband who won't let his wife grow.

So on the level of the story they're telling I understand.

 

That said, from a writing perspective I don't think it's an ideal choice,  especially not for Barry and Iris and how they've been portrayed previously. Barry and Iris have very much been written as a soulmate type couple in previous seasons, and I think things would look different if they'd written in accordance with that for this arc . Or they would at least have more scenes like Barry somehow sensing Iris looking at him and things like that. 

To be fair, they did actually write that scene with him sensing her looking at him and I'm expecting some payoff for the lightning rod mentions. Which if done right could go some way in making me feel better about the way certain things have been handled.

Perhaps it's the romantic in me, but I like I said above I understand and agree with every explanation, but I just want him to feel instinctively that it's not her. And to be fair, they have actually written Barry feeling it's not Iris to some extent, Barry has been acting different not just in scenes with mirror Iris (which btw have a subtle strain to them, which is great acting on the part of both Grant and Candice), he seems to be distancing himself from her in his overall behavior and who he confides in, maybe not consciously. But if they wanted to go that route they should have made it more clear.

I understand that especially this season they are doing a slowburn on a lot of things and trying to be more subtle than maybe they have been in other seasons, like they had Barry have little things off about his speed in different episodes without immediately commenting on it and explaining it.

But this is their main couple, I wish they'd take a little more care in both larger and smaller things. Barry has been spiraling this second half of the season, he's all over the place, and yes, crisis changes and the speed force are a big part of that, but they could have used the opportunity to also tie it to Iris being gone and him unknowingly reacting to that (and maybe they will)

To reiterate, the mirror plot is a cool, I just wish they'd take a little more care in how they handled Barry and Iris in it. I don't mind Barry and Iris having obstacles like this, I actually prefer them having to deal with 'one of them is trapped' type obstacles, than things like their fight over Nora working with Wells, because it has the potential to showcase their connection, but that actually needs to happen.

If one of the main couple is trapped like this, I want to see their journey back to each other treated with more care and frankly more importance than it's been so far. I expect we'll see it when it's the episode for them to deal with it and I'll probably love their moments, but it should be baked into the foundation of an arc like this.

 

 

[adora721]

2 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

Where was Ralph? He's only been in 1 episode in 6b. I don't get what is going on with the regulars this season.

 

Ralph's absence is especially egregious because the Flash announced to the entire city that Elongated Man was CC's new protector. Tonight, Barry acted like he was the only one the city could count on for protection.

And speaking of protection, how did Killer Frost get to Mecury Labs only a minute after Iris sounded the alarm? There are no extrapolators to use for quick travel anymore, and even on her ice slide, there's no way KF would arrive that quickly.

[Trini]

On 3/18/2020 at 12:41 AM, RedVitC said:

Where was Ralph? He's only been in 1 episode in 6b. I don't get what is going on with the regulars this season.

I like him, but overall, he's not that important to the show, so I only miss him so much. However, yes, his absence is noticeable. I think Wallace(/the writers room) is committed to only using the characters he needs - and no more - this season.
 

On 3/18/2020 at 12:41 AM, RedVitC said:

I think the mirror plot is cool, but I think they could be doing so much more with the other side of the mirror. We could be seeing Iris on this entire journey on the other side exploring that verse, finding mirrors, trying to get out, but so far it's mostly been her in that room and their solutions have been very conversation - try - fail - conversation.

Yeah, Iris in the Mirrorverse would be a lot more tolerable to me if she and Eva were doing more.

(Sorry, referencing Fringe again:) In the similar storyline in Fringe, both halves of the couple and the imposter were having their own interesting arcs that were leading up to all of the stories intersecting.

 

On 3/18/2020 at 12:41 AM, RedVitC said:

To reiterate, the mirror plot is a cool, I just wish they'd take a little more care in how they handled Barry and Iris in it.

Agreed with your entire eloquent take on the situation. Like most things here, the setup or idea is usually promising, but the execution is lacking.  ::SIGH::

Edited March 19, 2020 by Trini
Curses! dropped word + clarification

[Trini]

 

 

[thuganomics85]

So, it looks like Siri basically made a Mirror version of Kamilla now (Allimak?), so that's why Team Flash will continue to be none the wiser.  Granted, they didn't even have time for a scene between her and Cisco...

Can safely say that I never expected an exorcism on this show (well, unless Constantine ever decided to crash the party), but I enjoyed the whole "Eobard Thawne has possessed Nash, so we have to kick him out!" thing, even if it went the obvious route of Nash having to face his biggest regret. Which turns out was him meeting the alt-universe version of Allegra (named Maya), forming a bond that was almost parental, but then accidentally being responsible for her death.  I did like it leading to some good moments between him and Cisco, because Tom Cavanagh and Carlos Valdes always work great together.  But Eobard isn't actually gone for good and is probably going to try and find another body?  I hope he finds Matt Lestcher!

Hey, Joe is actually taking Wally's advice to heart, and notices how strangely unsupportive "Iris" is being, when it comes to Barry.  Granted, he was certainly helped by how much Siri was half-assing everything this go around.  At least she pulled off a decent pep talk at the end, but they will have to eventually figure her out, if she keeps phoning it in like this.

Singh!  Always great to see him.

Ralph seems to have vanished, almost.

Barry, Caitlin, and Cisco now think that they might be able to build a Speed Force with Nora's journal.  Hmm...

[ottoDbusdriver]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Really surprised they didn't show us where or what happened to Kamilla.

Yeah, that seems like a big fail by the writers to basically ignore what they did to Kamilla last episode, though Allimak certainly got some screen time.  And where was Iris when Eva was having her meets with her minions ?  Because that wasn't a mirror they were interacting through, it looked like a normal window.  Who built this window ?

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Yeah - I don't see how it took her 6 years to get this far. What are the rules for the mirrorverse??

First rule of mirrorverse -- don't talk about mirrorverse.

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

People can come in but cant come out from the looks of it.

I guess this makes the mirrorverse essentially a roach motel -- roaches check in, but they don't check out.

[Lady Calypso]

I'm guessing that the whereabouts of Kamilla will be a somewhat big reveal, maybe to Iris when she finds her in the Mirror World? But yeah, it's clear that Eva didn't kill her so it's more of a question on where she has her hidden. 

I was disappointed a bit with no Iris at all, but I feel like we got a little closer to the answers to Mirror World. It seems like Siri and Allimak can actually enter through Mirror World safely if they want, given that their hands don't burn when pushing through. But that's more of an inquiry about if it's just a one way door. But it does seem like Eva wants to escape Mirror World to exact revenge on her husband. Ok, I guess nothing too new that we didn't already know. But she's gotten her device thing, so we'll see what she does with that.

Yeah, I can't be mad at Barry for not figuring out that Siri isn't Iris, just because she already gaslit him in her first episode to believe that HE was the crazy one, and Siri is doing a fairly decent job at portraying Iris. The only difference is that Siri is more ruthless and less patient, but she's also done an ok job at masking it. It's easier for us to be frustrated because WE know the truth. Barry has no idea about Mirror World and, at this point, has no reason to suspect anything. Until Siri does something so out of character for Iris that someone would HAVE to notice (Joe doesn't even know that his fake daughter is the mole in the precinct, after all), I don't blame people for not catching on.

Now, Joe knows from Wally that something's up so he should be a bit more attentive. And it seems like he might be, with how she reacted this episode with the device and how Joe had to remind her to go after Barry. But she's been acting fairly normal around Barry, despite the fact that she's altered her speeches for her own gain. 

Now, the Exorcism of Wells was interesting, to a point. No surprise that his mainpain comes from the death of Allegra's doppelganger (Maya?). 

Frost keeps getting beaten, which is annoying in itself. I do like Caitlin, though. I've missed Caitlin so at least we got her for most of the episode. She isn't necessarily wrong in telling Barry that he needs to conserve his speed because he only has a limited amount now, but expecting him to do so is a bit ridiculous. She should have anticipated this happening. But at least Barry unintentionally using a lot of his speed and draining it makes sense because it's all about Thawne. If it was for any other reason, I'd be rolling my eyes. But Thawne has always been his weakness.

Seeing Singh again was great. There was a point where I thought that Singh was a Mirror World clone, though, just with some of his later scenes. I thought Allimak's plan was to grab Singh's Mirror doppelganger to help steal the device thing. 

Great use of Cecile and I absolutely forgot that she has another daughter out there. 

[MissLucas]

I really want to know if this show will ever address the issue that Barry and Siri have a sexual relationship. I vaguely remember another show* having such a doppelgänger scenario and the emotional fall-out wasn't pretty.

*Anyone remember which show? I've been trying to figure it out for a week no and not getting anywhere.

[shantown]

9 hours ago, adora721 said:

I did like that Barry used his brain throughout and thought of using Nora's diary in the end. I still think Chester should be included in the creation of a new speed force. 

And if they're not going to include him in a storyline that makes a lot of sense for his character, why have him? (Don't get me wrong, I like Chester. But if none of the "old guard" is leaving, there's not really room for him here unfortunately)
 

8 hours ago, RedVitC said:

There was something off about Singh this episode. 

I thought for sure he was going to end up being the mole! The way the actor played it, especially when he told Joe he believed him and wanted to be the one to handle the transfer of the mirror ball... it was so shady!
 

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I think Wallace(/the writers room) is committed to only using the characters he needs - and no more - this season.

Crisis would have been a great time to cut down on people no longer being part of Team Flash, especially when so many skillsets seem to overlap. Instead it's just awkward to have a cast of 10+ and then not see half of them for several episodes.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I really want to know if this show will ever address the issue that Barry and Siri have a sexual relationship. I vaguely remember another show* having such a doppelgänger scenario and the emotional fall-out wasn't pretty.

*Anyone remember which show? I've been trying to figure it out for a week no and not getting anywhere.

Fringe had Fauxlivia in a relationship with Peter who believed she was his Olivia and there was fallout from that by the bucket full. 

TVD had a lot of issues surrounding Katherine (doppelganger of Elena) and what she meant to Stefan and/or Damon. 

Not quite the same but when there were two Crichtons on Farscape and Aeryn had a relationship with one but not the other there was fallout. Most shows go for some type of angst and drama when this type of thing happens.

So they most certainly shouldn't gloss over it as it is a legitimate thing to get upset about even though Barry thought he was with his wife. Unless they want to say Westallen don't actually have any sexy times or intimate moments for months at a time off screen. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Featherhat

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Fringe had Fauxlivia in a relationship with Peter who believed she was his Olivia and there was fallout from that by the bucket full. 

Fringe was the one I thought of, thanks!

[Trini]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I really want to know if this show will ever address the issue that Barry and Siri have a sexual relationship. I vaguely remember another show* having such a doppelgänger scenario and the emotional fall-out wasn't pretty.

I think everyone should lower their expectations. It won't be addressed. Even though this could be a meaty, emotional arc that Grant and Candice could handle well; they couldn't even reference conceiving Nora last season, so I don't think they'll touch this. Disappointing, but this is the show.

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't think they're going to address Barry and Siri sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to do it with him. She also seems pretty distant with him. I think only hugging and kissing is all she will do.

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think they're going to address Barry and Siri sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to do it with him. She also seems pretty distant with him. I think only hugging and kissing is all she will do.

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

It's possible Siri has been keeping her distance. But Barry should have noticed or make comment on it when everything is revealed "Oh I'm so glad she kept her hands to herself! Even though I thought it was strange that she wasn't interested at the time I didn't push." 

Couples don't have to be going at it all the time but for two young people of 30ish who have just survived a Crisis that they thought was going to be the death of one of them, they should be celebrating that within the "Iris in the mirror" timeframe of weeks or months. And they've only been together four years and married for two.

I don't really care about the sex per se, although it won't do anything for the "WestAllen are sexless" stuff but I would really like them having to deal with some meaty stuff in their relationship over things that happened with Siri and some of the very good points she brought up when she first got there.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Featherhat
spelling and clarity

[MissLucas]

45 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think they're going to address Barry and Siri sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to do it with him. She also seems pretty distant with him. I think only hugging and kissing is all she will do.

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

Last week Iris said that she's been trapped for weeks. And I'd say it's more than a month now. Even if it's not unusual for couples to not have sex for long stretches (for example after just having had a kid) it would be unusual for two people their age, situation in life and still very much in love with each other. 

[Starry]

I don't think SirI is the mole. Joe was talking about homicides and other cases that got covered up before SirI showed up.

I don't get how Nora's journal is going to help Barry and Team Flash build a Speed Force. Nora didn't build her own Speed Force, Thawne just taught her how to use her powers and then channel the Negative Speed Force. Granted, season 5 is a bit of a blur but I don't recall anything about Nora building a Speed Force.

I thought this was the most enjoyable Wells episode they've had in a while. I didn't care about the fake science but I enjoyed the backstory of Nash and Maya. I liked the flashbacks and Tom Cavanagh did a good job with Nash's more emotional moments. I am mostly talking about the scenes with Nash trapped into his own mind and being tortured by Thawne. The scene of Maya's death was shot a bit choppily. Not sure it's a good idea to replace a person you were close to with her doppelgänger but I am glad they confirmed Maya wasn't Nash's bio daughter.

Cisco and Caitlin drag Barry down. He forgets how to use his brain every time he's around them and after six seasons that's just unacceptable. The moment Iris ( more like SirI but in that scene she did sound like Iris ) gave him a pep talk he remembered how to problem solve, set a trap for Sunshine and find a way to travel into Nash's mind.

Caitlin gave Barry sensible advice but he never listens to her. Good to know some things never change. Not even with Crisis.

Now onto the Iris/SirI stuff. I am disappointed they are doing absolutely nothing with the Mirror World but the most upsetting thing is that they didn't follow through with what they had set up in the previous episode. Wally told Joe to keep an eye on Iris and while he did notice that she wasn't comforting Barry all he did was tell her to go look after him. They didn't exactly hint that he was starting to get suspicious. In 6x14 SirI told Barry that maybe losing his speed is a blessing and now they can have a normal life and start a family. It's bad writing to have Barry proceed to build his own Speed Force while he and Iris act like that conversation never happened.

 

16 hours ago, RedVitC said:

And to be fair, they have actually written Barry feeling it's not Iris to some extent, Barry has been acting different not just in scenes with mirror Iris (which btw have a subtle strain to them, which is great acting on the part of both Grant and Candice), he seems to be distancing himself from her in his overall behavior and who he confides in, maybe not consciously. But if they wanted to go that route they should have made it more clear.

This is a good theory. All they needed to do was give Barry more POV after 6x12. That's why I feel the story has been stagnant. Barry has stopped reacting to the fact that his wife is being distant.

 

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think they're going to address Barry and Siri sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to do it with him. She also seems pretty distant with him. I think only hugging and kissing is all she will do.

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

That's not how Barry has been written the few times the show has hinted at his sex life with Iris. I agree that SirI is likely not interested but the show should still address it.

[tennisgurl]

Singh sighting! Really cool seeing him, I was worried the whole episode that he was the mole or had been replaced or something, I really hope they dont pull that later. 

Pretty good episode, even if I am so over Thawne and the billions of Wells who continue to exists even after the collapse of the multiverse. I wish we could get some more movement with Siri, but I do like the story, and I am glad that Joe at least was catching some weird vibes coming off of her and how she was avoiding Barry and being cold towards him. I dont blame Barry at all for not catching onto Siri, that manipulative mirror wife, but I am sad in advance that Barry will be all guilt ridden about not catching on faster, even if Siri has done a really good job at faking being Iris and was clearly manipulating and gaslighting him to keep him from catching on. 

I did like the last confrontation between Barry and Thawne though when Barry told him that he wont let him use his grief over Nora to piss him off anymore. In general this was a pretty good episode for Barry, his massive hate on for Thawne is always something that Grant does well (one day I am half convinced that Barry will vibrate him to death) he got to use his brains more now that he has to be more careful with his powers, and he got to put some of his grief for Nora behind him, not getting over it, but being able to handle it better. 

Also lots of continuity nods this week! We even remembered that Cecil has another daughter! 

Caitlin gave Barry some good advice about saving his energy, but, going back to Nora working with Thawne and not quite getting why that was such a big deal, but I feel like so many people really underestimate and invalidate how much Thawne sets him off. This is a guy who has made it his mission in life to ruin Barry's life since he was a child, for the most petty reasons imaginable, who has killed his parents, led to the death of his daughter, killed his best friend in an alternate timeline, betrayed him as his mentor and friend, and has just in general been responsible for almost every terrible moment in his life, so I dont blame Barry for going kind of nuts at the sight of him. Yeah killing him in Nashes body is bad and all, and I guess you can make arguments for and against killing Thawne (my take? FINISH HIM!) and if doing it is justice/revenge/eliminating a threat, but people sometimes act like Barry's massive hate on for him is some kind of failing on Barry's part, when thats not really what the problem is. Barry basically figured it out himself, that he can be angry and hurt but not let him control him or turn him into a person he isnt, but him being so pissed off at Thawne is pretty understandable, especially now that he has just gone full muhahaha villain.  

[Simba122504]

22 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I get people are frustrated. I get people have different opinions from everybody. However, I feel people are being TOO harsh on Barry not figuring out Mirror Iris. Answer me this: exactly WHAT is there for Barry to be suspicious over?

In 6x11, he was the first to notice something was off. Yet, people are acting like he has never noticed anything. When he questioned things, Siri had good comebacks to explain changes. 

Siri is manipulative. She is playing everybody. She has Iris memories and knows exactly how to act like her. Just look at her in this episode. She actually gave a good pep talk that Iris would give.

So why are we being harsh on Barry? Why are we asking for Iris to be mad at him? Siri hasn't done anything lately for him to be suspicious of.

The same goes for Joe.

Well, we know they can easily replace your entire family with clones.  😁🙃

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think they're going to address Barry and Siri sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to do it with him. She also seems pretty distant with him. I think only hugging and kissing is all she will do.

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

But the show should at least have Barry MENTION something about this.  It could be him talking to Joe about it embarassingly or even just him and Siri with her having another headache, etc.. SOMETHING.  Otherwise it's just crap storytelling.

Even Elseworlds kinda almost touched on this with Oliver waking up with Iris and Barry's reaction.

E2 Barry freaked out at the thought of Iris kissing E1 Barry - not at his wife - but it did come up.

My frustration with this storyline is that they are 1) simultaneously killing the soulmate/lightning rod part of WestAllen that has been there since S1 and 2) not going to address that they killed it, if that makes sense.

Basically, there won't be any fallout, no guilt on B's part that he didn't know it wasn't Iris and no anger from Iris that he didn't know.  And nothing about whether or not he slept with Siri.

It's just going to be unsatisfying - it's clear to me based on the writing.  They aren't inserting anything about WestAllen to really center them in this story at all... they aren't using small moments like the one with Barry sensing Iris in the mirror... we need MORE of that, not less.

I at least need Eva dragging Barry for not knowing.  Maybe it's not realistic for Barry to know in his gut it's not Iris ... but I don't watch this show for realism in that sense.  I watch it for the "impossible" that you can get in comic worlds and sci-fi.  And soulmates?  That's supposed to be at the heart of Barry & Iris who find each other in whatever universe or time they are in.  The S1 sparks.  The moments Iris just knows it's Barry or not Barry.  The moments Iris has made his powers amp up (that's happened a LOT).  The way Iris being in danger broke him out of his speedforce funk.  The way Iris broke him from Grodd's mind control... how she snapped his memories back to him in Flashpoint. 

The soulmate lightning rod thing has been a thing of WestAllen since the pilot (she literally activated his powers).

To write this storyline as if that's not a thing is a betrayal.

THAT is why I'm so disappointed in the writers and Barry by extension.

Wallace still hasn't dug his way out of S6A for me and dismantling (or not leaning on) the soulmate/lightning rod part of WestAllen isn't helping him earn my trust back.

[Kathira]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Plus, married couples don't have sex everyday or every week or every month.

Well, some do. Mr. Kathira and I were like bunny rabbits when we were young - i.e. the ages of Barry and Iris. Maybe not every day, but I would expect a young, healthy couple to be doing it at least once a week. Barry and Iris seem to be oddly disconnected for people who are supposed to be soulmates. I get that showing their home life, regular dinners, Netflix and chill, etc. would be boring, but the result is that they don't seem much like a couple. Maybe it is the Siri factor, but they haven't seemed terribly loved up for a while.

[Maverick]

 Ralph is babysitting Jenna.

 I'm so glad they collapsed the multiverse and eliminated dopplegangers....only to come up with a bullshit way to bring on a new Wells every year.   The only bigger bullshit in  this episode is that they didn't kill Thawn.  Once again the guy who shouldn't exist on any plane where logic also exists.

[Starry]

7 hours ago, Kathira said:

I get that showing their home life, regular dinners, Netflix and chill, etc. would be boring, but the result is that they don't seem much like a couple. Maybe it is the Siri factor, but they haven't seemed terribly loved up for a while.

It's not boring to me. Superheroes need to have home lives.

I don't think it's the SirI factor. Barry has had more cute domestic scenes with SirI in one episode than with Iris in I don't know how long. These writers are just not interested. They married them off. Their job is done. All the married couple stuff either happens off screen or gets explained away in a throwaway line.

Fiction is supposed to be better than reality but these writers hate romance so much they are confirming every negative stereotype about married couples.

[kminfinity]

On 3/18/2020 at 9:28 AM, MissLucas said:

I really want to know if this show will ever address the issue that Barry and Siri have a sexual relationship. I vaguely remember another show* having such a doppelgänger scenario and the emotional fall-out wasn't pretty.

*Anyone remember which show? I've been trying to figure it out for a week no and not getting anywhere.

In S4 BtVS, Faith swaps bodies with Buffy and sleeps with Riley, which causes one more long term problem in the Buffy-Riley relationship, especially since he doesn't realize he's slept with a dopple/body snatcher.

I'm not saying Flash has to go there, but if Iris and Barry are NOT intimate the show really needs to state that and have Barry worry about it.  They hinted at it already.

Edited March 19, 2020 by kminfinity

[Featherhat]

2 minutes ago, kminfinity said:

I'm not saying Flash has to go there, but if iris and Barry are NOT intimate the show really needs to state that and have Barry worry about it.  They hinted at it already.

Yes. You don't have to have them be having sex but you should mention that they haven't been intimate (and not just sex) and that this is something "Iris" is adjusting to post Crisis and whether they're still on the same page. Otherwise if it doesn't get mentioned at all in the emotional fallout you're left with the impression that two 30 year olds in early marriage who haven't been together that long don't have sex. 

3 hours ago, Starry said:

These writers are just not interested. They married them off. Their job is done. All the married couple stuff either happens off screen or gets explained away in a throwaway line.

There was discussion when they got married in early season four after not being together that long that the writers just wanted to check the "Barry and Iris are married" off their list of things to get done so they could focus on the things they liked writing better (action, male bonding, jokes) and also so they could start bringing in their speedster descendants from the future, which also: check. It's not hard to give them a few more scenes here and there and even tie it in to what's going on in the episode. 

[JoyGirl]

On 3/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, phoenics said:

Last thought:  I don't think Iris is going to get out of the mirror in 6.17.  I think that's how Barry finally finds out - when Eva gets out and reveals her evil plan and maybe she and Siri rag on Barry for not knowing he was sleeping with the enemy.  At this point, I'm so mad Barry hasn't figured this out or even gotten suspicious enough to check that I WANT him to SUFFER.

At this point I don't know how he could figure it out.  I know you're a big Iris fan, as I am, but think about it...Fake Iris has not really tipped her hand at all, except for Joe chastising her this episode for not being attentive.  There's been no scenes other than Barry looking into the mirror strangely.  Yeah, she could cook a few episodes back, but I never bought that Iris was a bad cook.  That seemed to be a cute "newlywed" joke the writers saddled her with.  Unless Fake Iris starts showing some serious uncharacteristic real Iris traits, there's no reason for Barry to be suspicious.  

[Kimmel77]

On 3/18/2020 at 1:49 AM, phoenics said:

No idea at all.

In that other episode when she put her hands through the mirror, she got burned.  This time, nothing?  Can she manipulate the mirror to burn?  Because she clearly did it to keep her and Iris there, but seriously why?  

Tonight made it seem like she could just walk out on her own.

 

Maybe she can walk out but cannot survive in our world for long. I’m guessing she is the mirror world conduit and it won’t let her go without sucking her back in.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, JoyGirl said:

At this point I don't know how he could figure it out.  I know you're a big Iris fan, as I am, but think about it...Fake Iris has not really tipped her hand at all, except for Joe chastising her this episode for not being attentive.  There's been no scenes other than Barry looking into the mirror strangely.  Yeah, she could cook a few episodes back, but I never bought that Iris was a bad cook.  That seemed to be a cute "newlywed" joke the writers saddled her with.  Unless Fake Iris starts showing some serious uncharacteristic real Iris traits, there's no reason for Barry to be suspicious.  

I know - for the record - it's not Barry I'm upset with - it's the writers.

By all accounts, this storyline (like Crisis before it) should have been a storyline that revolved around WestAllen.  But as it's being written, the stakes for WestAllen are noticeably absent.  If Siri didn't have an agenda, Barry could literally just live with her forever and be fine.  That's just ... unacceptable for an OTP.  

What are the stakes of this storyline for WestAllen?  Are there any?  I don't see any right now. 

That's my problem with this storyline.

It also feels like Eva is trying to turn Iris against Barry and we know that won't happen.  Iris is there to be the foil to Eva's "I hate my husband for abandoning" storyline, so Iris won't be allowed to be upset that Barry was cavorting around with a duplicate of her and didn't realize it and didn't just "know" it wasn't her (at least, not enough to do something about it).

The only thing that could save this is if Iris is still trapped in the mirror when Barry finds out she's trapped and then he moves heaven and earth (for more than just one episode) to get her out.  Otherwise the storyline will have Iris stuck for months in a mirror and Barry only experiencing 2 mins of pain over it.  All the pain will be Iris' (and ours), but she (and we) won't be allowed to have a reasonable closure to that.  If they even acknowledge her pain at this - we still haven't gotten any scenes of Siri/Barry for Iris to even freak out about from the other side of the mirror.

That's why there won't be much of a payoff to this storyline.

 

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

Mirror-verse rules?: It seems like Eva can only make copies of people that have been pulled into the Mirror-verse. I'm assuming that Kamilla is still alive was transported to the Mirror-verse by the Mirror Gun, even though they haven't revealed her fate yet. I don't think they would kill her off like that. (Which makes me think that Cicada from last season is alive somewhere in the Mirror-verse, but I'm guessing they'll not address that, or give some throwaway explanation. But then again, Cicada was mentioned in the episode.)

Also the mirror clones can enter/exit the Mirror-verse. And, like the previous Mirror Master, Eva can use any reflective surface -- I don't think that is an actual mirror in Iris' office?

Barry loses his powers a least once a season, doesn't he?

Cecile's powers only work when and how the writers want them to according to plot; I've stopped trying to pretend it makes sense.

Really hope they can get Matt Letscher back as Eobard. It doesn't make sense he keeps reappearing looking like Wells.

LoL at Allimak dressing in 'villainess' darks! Subtle, show. But I did really like both her and Siri's outfits in this one. The hairstylists still need to get out of the rut of having everyone's hait the same ALL the time.

Iris mentioned a Ringmaster; I guess that's an upcoming VotW.

I didn't realize before that Cecile hit Thawne/Nash with the ouija board - I guess it did come in handy!

I wish they had shown something to show how Siri and Allimak got the refractor thingy, because as mentioned upthread, there didn't seem to be a good time for them to get it without being seen.

One really good thing about this episode's plots was that the villains were defeated without using Barry's speed. Yay for Barry being smart! They need to do this more often.

Still don't like Nash and his plots, but I did like that Cisco had some nice scenes with him. Can Carlos get more than one episode per season to showcase his talent. please?

"Building a speed force" still sounds dumb to me, but Barry's going to build his with... love? Iris better be back before that can work.

[Trini]

Also, even though she's a clone and it serviced her (or Eva's) own agenda, Siri actually gave a convincing motivational speech to Barry; so I see how everyone could be fooled.

It's encouraging that the first people to notice her slightly off behavior have been her family: Barry, Wally, and Joe. She's been very subtle until she's caught redhanded (like with Kamilla), so I'm guessing that's how she'll eventually get found out.

I admit I'm impatient waiting for the reveal, but I think one thing that makes it feel longer is all the breaks we've had in 6B so far.

[immortalfrieza]

I think the issue here with Mirror Iris is that we know she's a fake already. If we had just had a scene of Iris looking into Eva's office and then the episode ended and we didn't have any of those ominous "Iris is stuck in the mirror" or any other obvious scenes I'm pretty sure we'd be just as oblivious as the cast until the reveal. Mirror Iris has gone way out of her way to act just like Iris in her every scene where she actually needs to with maybe a slight hiccup at best which all are easily explainable. Even all of her speeches thus far have been textbook Iris. None of the cast have super "I know everything even things I have no reason to know" powers since Cisco stopped being Vibe at the least, none of them have any reason to notice anything is up with Iris.

 

And no, we will not get an acknowledgement even in passing of Mirror Iris and Barry's sex life, we barely have ever gotten acknowledgement that the real Iris and Barry even had a sex life. It's like the fact that everybody in fiction takes a crap now and then but we never see it because it's not important to anything and especially not important to the plot.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by immortalfrieza

[phoenics]

On 3/18/2020 at 12:41 AM, RedVitC said:

If one of the main couple is trapped like this, I want to see their journey back to each other treated with more care and frankly more importance than it's been so far. I expect we'll see it when it's the episode for them to deal with it and I'll probably love their moments, but it should be baked into the foundation of an arc like this.

After seeing s6.17, I had to come back to this perfect post of yours and agree - especially with this part.  I would have enjoyed this arc so much more if they'd done more baking more of these connected moments with Barry & Iris all along.

[phoenics]

On 4/19/2020 at 12:12 AM, immortalfrieza said:

I think the issue here with Mirror Iris is that we know she's a fake already. If we had just had a scene of Iris looking into Eva's office and then the episode ended and we didn't have any of those ominous "Iris is stuck in the mirror" or any other obvious scenes I'm pretty sure we'd be just as oblivious as the cast until the reveal. Mirror Iris has gone way out of her way to act just like Iris in her every scene where she actually needs to with maybe a slight hiccup at best which all are easily explainable. Even all of her speeches thus far have been textbook Iris. None of the cast have super "I know everything even things I have no reason to know" powers since Cisco stopped being Vibe at the least, none of them have any reason to notice anything is up with Iris.

 

And no, we will not get an acknowledgement even in passing of Mirror Iris and Barry's sex life, we barely have ever gotten acknowledgement that the real Iris and Barry even had a sex life. It's like the fact that everybody in fiction takes a crap now and then but we never see it because it's not important to anything and especially not important to the plot.

 

I feel like this is exactly what they should have done - they shouldn't have told us that it was a clone until a few episodes later... after she did something really out of character... they could have had us all thinking something changed for Iris after Crisis... like they could have even used some of our anger at Iris having to prop up everyone else on the team that she didn't really get time with Barry much at all... and used that to show her acting weird... and then BAM!  We find out it's not her at all.

Missed opportunity.