S05.E01: Magic Man

[scenario]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Personally, I'd be surprised if these guys were so very loyal to this one guy, especially given the kind of job they agreed to take. But disappearing a whole pack of German engineers together seems like just asking for trouble. There would be a lot of people in Germany with no idea where a lot of people had gone, except that they had a job in the US. If he hadn't planned beforehand to murder them all, I totally accept he'd decided to simply hire people with a demand for secrecy upfront.

 

Crime is a business. They just can't kill everyone who works for them. Too many bodies attracts unwanted attention. 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I agree that Kim's downfall being caused by trying to do a good thing, for an undeserving moron, is good writing. The world is never fair, it only occasionally appears like it might be due to random outcomes.

I'm not sure if the failure to kill the rest of the German crew is really a plot hole. Werner's wife now also knows entirely too much about Werner's adventures in the Southwest United States, and Gus can't be sure exactly how much she knows, or what she has told anyone in Germany. The Germans all knew each other prior to this project. If they all disappear, Werner's wife, or someone she has confided in,  could trigger a major, FBI-led investigation pretty easily. Really, the least risky course is probably paying off everyone, and telling Werner's now-widow that he died in a construction accident.

I thought the implication was that Werner's wife was also killed.  Could be wrong.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I thought the implication was that Werner's wife was also killed.  Could be wrong.

At the end of Season 4, I took it that Mike allowed Werner to call his wife to get her to go straight back to the airport so she wouldn't be killed.  

[EtheltoTillie]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

At the end of Season 4, I took it that Mike allowed Werner to call his wife to get her to go straight back to the airport so she wouldn't be killed.  

But then in this episode, Gus said that the wife was "compensated," with some weird tone in his voice.  That implied to me she was dead.  Either way, this show is a delicious brain teaser. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

But then in this episode, Gus said that the wife was "compensated," with some weird tone in his voice.  That implied to me she was dead.  Either way, this show is a delicious brain teaser. 

I thought he was telling Mike she had been giving a lot of money and said it in that way because he knew Mike would demand she be taken care of at least financially. So it was like, "Don't ask, she was given the money her husband earned and more."

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

But then in this episode, Gus said that the wife was "compensated," with some weird tone in his voice.  That implied to me she was dead.  Either way, this show is a delicious brain teaser. 

I'd have to watch it again, but I took compensated to mean compensated with a large settlement.  

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'd have to watch it again, but I took compensated to mean compensated with a large settlement.  

Yeah, it could go either way.  I was being very cynical.  

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'd have to watch it again, but I took compensated to mean compensated with a large settlement.  

I took it that way too. A large company offering a widow a lot of money to keep quiet would fit in. Many companies don't want the government looking into their business practices. 

[Ray Adverb]

13 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was also unrealistic that they didn't kill all of Werner's men.  If killing Werner was necessary, killing them was just as necessary.

That isn't how Gus Fring operates.  Remember in Breaking Bad how he bought the silence of his imprisoned employees instead of having them killed?  Gus Fring has a certain amount of honor.

Werner was killed because he was uncontrollable and disobedient.  The rest of the crew was perfectly subservient.

[scenario]

6 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

That isn't how Gus Fring operates.  Remember in Breaking Bad how he bought the silence of his imprisoned employees instead of having them killed?  Gus Fring has a certain amount of honor.

Werner was killed because he was uncontrollable and disobedient.  The rest of the crew was perfectly subservient.

I don't think its honor. It's cold blooded risk assessment. He decided that the risk in paying off the employees was less than leaving a trail of bodies. 

[Atlanta]

I'm dying for more Gene scenes. Yay! We got more than previously before! I find his life on the DL/run way more interesting than his brand new foray as Saul. It would be hilarious if he winds up in Alaska with Jesse. Walt came out of hiding because of his ego and he couldn't let Gretchen and Elliott take credit for his work. I don't think Saul has an ego like that. I think he would love a quiet life in the Alaskan wilderness. It does make me wonder where Kim is in all of this.

[peeayebee]

I agree that it's a commonsense decision not to kill all the Germans. That would draw attention to the construction as well as questions about the corpses. I don't think any of them are going to say anything. They know that Mike can be ruthless and that Gus has a lot of money and reach.

I don't like Lalo, but I like the character. He's deceptively perceptive. I'm going to enjoy seeing him outsmarted.

I loved seeing Gene again. And while I loved seeing Robert Forster again, it also made me sad.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I'm dying for more Gene scenes. Yay! We got more than previously before! I find his life on the DL/run way more interesting than his brand new foray as Saul. It would be hilarious if he winds up in Alaska with Jesse. Walt came out of hiding because of his ego and he couldn't let Gretchen and Elliott take credit for his work. I don't think Saul has an ego like that. I think he would love a quiet life in the Alaskan wilderness. It does make me wonder where Kim is in all of this.

Walt was originally coming out of hiding to turn himself in.  When Walt Jr. rebuked him on the phone, he realized there was no way to get money to his family and have them accept it, he no longer had any reason to live and I believe he was finally taking Saul's advice at the vacuum store and turning himself in to make things easier on Skylar.  

When he saw Gretchen and Elliot on TV, a light bulb went off and he thought of a way to get his money to his family.   I think he also enjoyed terrorizing them, and making them do his bidding, but that was just gravy.  

I'm not sure Saul would like a quiet life in Alaska.  He likes excitement and drama.   He went nuts in the empty cell phone store.   

[Bryce Lynch]

Lalo feels like character from The Princess Bride or Shrek to me.  He is more like a caricature. 

His lines and his acting just don't ring true to me.  I thought this from the first moment he met Nacho and describing the taco he offered him, said in Spanish, "Your'e gonna die."  Such an obvious and corny double entendre seems like something written by a much less talented group of writers for a far inferior show.  

He is probably the character I have enjoyed the least on BB or BCS.  

[TVFan17]

I tend to agree with the line of thinking that the cab driver will come back to try to blackmail Gene/Saul, just to make a buck.  If that happens, things will probably not go well for the driver (not necessarily because Saul/Gene personally inflicts harm on him, but maybe because he has someone else do something).  OR it will turn out that the driver blabs about seeing Saul to the wrong people, which sets off a chain of events, causing Gene/Saul to escape Cinnabon and go on the run without Ed's help (possibly reuniting with Kim somewhere).

 

Every time Lalo is onscreen I think he is going to do something terrible.  We've seen some of what he does, but I don't think we've seen the worst of it.  Even though he has already committed murder since he's been on the show, I think that, if he is anything like the other Salamancas, we have not seen the worst of him yet.

But I still have to wonder where Lalo is in Breaking Bad, even if his ties to Gus are severed by then.   We assume that he is alive because Saul assumes that Lalo sent Walt and Jesse to kidnap him.  But Lalo is way too nosy and on top of what's going on to not have been aware of Walter White and Walt & Jesse's connection to Tuco, to Krazy-8, to the Cousins, to Mike, to Hector, etc.  Even just knowing that Walt & Jesse were working for Gus would have been enough to keep Lalo buzzing around, prying into everyone's business.  So where is Lalo during the Breaking Bad timeline if he is not dead right away?  Or was he really dead and they were misleading us to think he was alive in the earlier part of BB?

 

I usually get bored when there are too many courtroom/courthouse scenes, so I'm happy to see anything that takes place elsewhere.  Saul's colorful clothing was on full display, and that's always fun.  Any scene featuring Gus is compelling -- especially when we see him clashing with Mike -- but I, too, was surprised that the lab guys were all let go.  It wouldn't be a great idea to kill all of them in one swoop, or in the same time frame, but I do wonder if any of them might mysteriously vanish in the future.

I'm looking forward to tonight's episode!

Edited February 24, 2020 by TVFan17

[cheetahchirps]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am guessing the cabby and his buddy might be taking a trip to Belize.  

I know Saul's displayed a cavalier attitude towards disposing of people, but he's never been an outright murderer himself, and I don't think that would even solve his problem, since the cabbie is an obvious loudmouth, and who knows how many other people he would talk to about his revelation aside from his friend. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with their blackmail attempt, possibly ending up in his employ, but I do believe he's at the stage where his life has become so mundane that he's starting to feel like he has nothing to lose. I can't see him keeping up this pretense for much longer, although Alaska would probably be more of a boring hell to him than Omaha. I do laugh when people blithely suggest that large numbers of people should or would be taking a dirt nap.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

Crime is a business. They just can't kill everyone who works for them. Too many bodies attracts unwanted attention. 

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

54 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Saul would like a quiet life in Alaska.  He likes excitement and drama.   He went nuts in the empty cell phone store.   

And he's going nuts in Cinnabon. He was never going to last long there.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

 

But it would bring a lot of attention, wouldn't it? Seems like the kind of people that are usually just getting disposed of and buried are cartel people where there's an attitude of drug dealers signing up for an endless gang war. 

8 minutes ago, cheetahchirps said:

I know Saul's displayed a cavalier attitude towards disposing of people, but he's never been an outright murderer himself, and I don't think that would even solve his problem, since the cabbie is an obvious loudmouth, and who knows how many other people he would talk to about his revelation aside from his friend. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with their blackmail attempt, possibly ending up in his employ, but I do believe he's at the stage where his life has become so mundane that he's starting to feel like he has nothing to lose. I can't see him keeping up this pretense for much longer, although Alaska would probably be more of a boring hell to him than Omaha. I do laugh when people blithely suggest that large numbers of people should or would be taking a dirt nap.

I wonder if one reason he decided to handle it himself was boredom. This is a guy who's always gotten himself in trouble because he can't help scheming.The confrontation gave him a rush of terror, sure, but it's also probably the first actual purpose he's had in his life (besides having nobody see him) since he's gotten to Omaha. Once the police were gone and he realized he wasn't in that immediate danger, it was a challenge. 

But I agree, he's not a killer. That's not the sort of thing he usually means when he thinks of taking care of someone. Part of what makes this show such an interesting counterpart to BB. 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Another small moment I thoroughly enjoyed was the ambush of the prosecutor by the TV crew.  At first, I thought Saul had hired another crew and was loudly announcing himself to the DA's office that he was about to become their worst nightmare.   I never did see a mic flag identifying the media entity.  Anyway...the "Really?" reaction of that poor fella was priceless.  He was very much a "Mike" to me with his taciturn response.   Who is this "Saul" joker, eh?  Hmm...he was dressed just like the Joker.  

All the points in here about the engineers (not all Germans?) and Werner's wife are good.  My bottom line is that they all understood and understand they are dealing with a special wickedness and their mercenary and survival instincts stand them in good stead as they keep it all buttoned.  Gilligan has earned from me a good measure of "suspending disbelief," in any event.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, TVFan17 said:

But I still have to wonder where Lalo is in Breaking Bad.   We assume that he is alive because Saul assumes that Lalo sent Walt and Jesse to kidnap him.  But Lalo is way too nosy and on top of what's going on to not have been aware of Walter White and Walt & Jesse's connection to Tuco, to Krazy-8, to the Cousins, to Hector, etc.  Even just knowing that Walt & Jesse were working for Gus would have been enough to keep Lalo buzzing around them, prying into everyone's business.  So where is Lalo during the Breaking Bad timeline if he is not dead right away?  Or was he really dead and they were misleading us to think he was alive in the earlier part of BB?

I have to re-watch it this evening before the new episode, but didn't Gus say the finishing of the meth lab was on mothballs until Lalo was either dead or back in Mexico? So that suggests that he is one of those two things in Breaking Bad because we know the lab gets finished.

[cheetahchirps]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I wonder if one reason he decided to handle it himself was boredom. This is a guy who's always gotten himself in trouble because he can't help scheming.The confrontation gave him a rush of terror, sure, but it's also probably the first actual purpose he's had in his life (besides having nobody see him) since he's gotten to Omaha. Once the police were gone and he realized he wasn't in that immediate danger, it was a challenge. 

 

Yes, who knows how long he's gone without using his brain or skills. I can see him getting back into the game just to relieve the monotony, since he believes he can always outwit the law. Although I was a little disappointed in the first show, Gene's story is starting to take shape where some type of reversion is going to to take place, and I just hope we don't have to wait for season 6 to witness it. I also believe Kim won't die. She's sort of fulfilling  the Jesse role of BCS, someone who her mentor tries to manipulate, but has native intelligence and street smarts in abundance enough to save herself and outdo her teacher. She may even end up saving Gene herself. She engenders too much admiration for her true goodness. She's (like Jesse) the real hero.    

[Ray Adverb]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

Do you mean hard for the police, or hard for anyone at all?

Because the cartel has a much lower standard of evidence than the police.  If Gus murders a bunch of workers who were constructing a supposedly legitimate chicken cooling facility, that's going to destroy any shred of credibility his precarious cover story has.

[TVFan17]

11 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I have to re-watch it this evening before the new episode, but didn't Gus say the finishing of the meth lab was on mothballs until Lalo was either dead or back in Mexico? So that suggests that he is one of those two things in Breaking Bad because we know the lab gets finished.

Yes.  And Gus said he would be dealt with.  I guess I'm just surprised that -- if he went to Mexico and wasn't killed yet -- he stayed away, when I would assume he would get some sort of word of Walter White's interactions with family and various people he knew.  I would just expect him to come back and snoop around for more info on Walter/Heisenberg -- that is, IF he is still alive for a while in the BB timeline.  But Gus may have intercepted any plans Lalo had, and we just didn't know it was happening because Lalo was not really on the BB radar.

Edited February 24, 2020 by TVFan17

[BonnieD]

I thought this was to be the last season. Dragging it out to 6 seasons may be too much, especially as these characters playing younger versions of themselves, pre-BB, can not hold up much longer LOL.

I thoroughly enjoyed the opening episode and am eager for more. Yes, it was really quite weird that the mall guy kept pressing the point about meeting someone "famous" but there is that sort of person who just needs to hear they're right and won't drop a subject until they hear it.  
Aslo, agreed that Kim will be out soon. Hoping she leaves town and doesn't get sucked into serious trouble because of Saul.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

And he's going nuts in Cinnabon. He was never going to last long there.

Right.  Remember how the Marco and Leonel shot and then burned a whole truck full of illegal aliens because one of them had painted cars for the cartel and recognized their skull tipped boots?  

I don't think Fring is quite as cavalier about killing innocents (though he was ready to kill Walt's wife, his son and his infant daughter), but the Germans were at least somewhat "in the game", by agreeing to build a secret drug lab, for huge some of money. 

But, I think the whole plot line was botched.  Fring would have been much more careful.  Werner would never have seen his face or heard his name and the crew would have never known where they were digging.    It started out so well, with all the secrecy, but once they did the R&R at a local strip club and everyone knew where they were, it became kind of ridiculous. 

[ShadowFacts]

32 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

Do you mean hard for the police, or hard for anyone at all?

Because the cartel has a much lower standard of evidence than the police.  If Gus murders a bunch of workers who were constructing a supposedly legitimate chicken cooling facility, that's going to destroy any shred of credibility his precarious cover story has.

Hard for the authorities. I feel like Gus operated under the noses of the DEA for years without suspicion, he was the upstanding businessman, community leader, friend to law enforcement. I don't know what evidence connects him to German nationals' bodies who would have to be found. Lalo may figure some things out, but again, bodies would have to turn up.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

And he's going nuts in Cinnabon. He was never going to last long there.

The Germans all knew that they were within a certain radius of Denver. They have the educations to deduce, from soil composition, what cities, having a large commercial laundry, are the most  likely candidates. Gus and Mike cannot know what details Werner passed on to his wife, and who she may have talked to, before travelling to the U.S.. All the Germans knew each other prior  to this job, which means their families, including Werner's wife, may know each other.  Disappearing all of them, never to be heard from again, entails a huge risk. Paying them all off, with an implied threat of what failure to keep silent will lead to, can be reasonably seen as being less risky, in my opinion.

[Bryce Lynch]

37 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

Do you mean hard for the police, or hard for anyone at all?

Because the cartel has a much lower standard of evidence than the police.  If Gus murders a bunch of workers who were constructing a supposedly legitimate chicken cooling facility, that's going to destroy any shred of credibility his precarious cover story has.

How would the cartel find out he murdered the diggers?  They could have been killed underground, loaded onto an LPH refrigerated truck, and driven into the desert to be buried in pre-dug holes.  Or, he could have fed them to the chickens. :)

 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right.  Remember how the Marco and Leonel shot and then burned a whole truck full of illegal aliens because one of them had painted cars for the cartel and recognized their skull tipped boots?  

I don't think Fring is quite as cavalier about killing innocents (though he was ready to kill Walt's wife, his son and his infant daughter), but the Germans were at least somewhat "in the game", by agreeing to build a secret drug lab, for huge some of money. 

But, I think the whole plot line was botched.  Fring would have been much more careful.  Werner would never have seen his face or heard his name and the crew would have never known where they were digging.    It started out so well, with all the secrecy, but once they did the R&R at a local strip club and everyone knew where they were, it became kind of ridiculous. 

Killing a bunch of dirt poor people trying to sneak across the U.S. border is rather unlike having a small group of highly skilled, fairly affluent, people suddenly disappear, after they work on a highly technical project that you desperately want to remain covert.

Frankly, the whole notion that you could pull off a project like that secretly, within U.S. borders, is pretty dubious, but I can buy someone trying and failing.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The Germans all knew that they were within a certain radius of Denver. They have the educations to deduce, from soil composition, what cities, having a large commercial laundry, are the most  likely candidates. Gus and Mike cannot know what details Werner passed on to his wife, and who she may have talked to, before travelling to the U.S.. All the Germans knew each other prior  to this job, which means their families, including Werner's wife, may know each other.  Disappearing all of them, never to be heard from again, entails a huge risk. Paying them all off, with an implied threat of what failure to keep silent will lead to, can be reasonably seen as being less risky, in my opinion.

The Germans probably lost all track of time while being transported blindly from Denver to NM.  I also doubt they could tell the difference between soil in ABQ or other parts of NM, or CO, AZ or many other States, if they had any clue at all.    Unless one has studied regional soil samples, I doubt he could recognize soil from 5,000 miles away from their homes.  

For all they knew they could have driven around in circles for hours and still be in the Denver area.   

It was a big mistake for Gus and Mike to let Werner know where he was and who Gus was.  If they had kept it a secret, he probably would have lived and the basement would have been finished within a few more months.   

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Killing a bunch of dirt poor people trying to sneak across the U.S. border is rather unlike having a small group of highly skilled, fairly affluent, people suddenly disappear, after they work on a highly technical project that you desperately want to remain covert.

Frankly, the whole notion that you could pull off a project like that secretly, within U.S. borders, is pretty dubious, but I can buy someone trying and failing.

I thought they had an excellent plan.  They had a remote warehouse, with no windows and tight security, where they housed the men.  They brought drove the men for many hours, in the darkness and disoriented so they would not know where they were.  They transported them in the back of a truck from the living space to the work space at night.  

They screwed up with the idiotic decision to do the R&R at a strip club and bar that was obviously in ABQ.  That is some of the most annoying writing in all of BB and BCS.  Usually everything the characters do makes sense on some level, even if it is based upon irrational anger or stupidity by a stupid person.   But, Fring and Mike are both very smart and very cautious men.  

It would have been better to bring hookers to the warehouse and even to fly Werner's wife into say Phoenix and take Werner on a long, blind ride, circling for hours to make it seem longer, to meet her in a hotel for a weekend.  

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The Germans probably lost all track of time while being transported blindly from Denver to NM.  I also doubt they could tell the difference between soil in ABQ or other parts of NM, or CO, AZ or many other States, if they had any clue at all.    Unless one has studied regional soil samples, I doubt he could recognize soil from 5,000 miles away from their homes.  

For all they knew they could have driven around in circles for hours and still be in the Denver area.   

It was a big mistake for Gus and Mike to let Werner know where he was and who Gus was.  If they had kept it a secret, he probably would have lived and the basement would have been finished within a few more months.   

These guys have worked all over the world. Dirt is their business. The data is all easily researched. They are highly intelligent. The notion that they would not be able to discern whether they were working in the dirt of Omaha or Salt Lake City or Albuquerque is pretty dubious. Hell, anybody with an I.Q. greater than 90 could tell they were likely getting paid with drug money, which means a city south of Denver, west of San Antonio is most likely. From there just a week's work, researching the records of maybe 50 or so large commercial laundries really narrows the list.

Keeping secrets in a post industrial society is really, really, hard.

 

 

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I thought they had an excellent plan.  They had a remote warehouse, with no windows and tight security, where they housed the men.  They brought drove the men for many hours, in the darkness and disoriented so they would not know where they were.  They transported them in the back of a truck from the living space to the work space at night.  

They screwed up with the idiotic decision to do the R&R at a strip club and bar that was obviously in ABQ.  That is some of the most annoying writing in all of BB and BCS.  Usually everything the characters do makes sense on some level, even if it is based upon irrational anger or stupidity by a stupid person.   But, Fring and Mike are both very smart and very cautious men.  

It would have been better to bring hookers to the warehouse and even to fly Werner's wife into say Phoenix and take Werner on a long, blind ride, circling for hours to make it seem longer, to meet her in a hotel for a weekend.  

I think you are highly underestimating the deductive abilities of well educated, highly intelligent, human beings. Again, we will agree to disagree.

[scenario]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's true, but the cartel folk are adept at burying people in the desert never to be found. And no one back home knows where they went, the men themselves didn't even know where they were. Even if bodies were somehow found, it would be hard to pin on Gus, Mike or anyone.

And he's going nuts in Cinnabon. He was never going to last long there.

These are a bunch of middle class guys from Germany. If 10 middle class American's are killed somewhere in the world it's front page news. All's you need is one reporter or politician notices and complains and the German government is pressuring the American government to do something. 

If the feds are involved it only takes one person to give them a clue. Someone at the bar or at the airport or something. 

Safer to let them go with a lot of cash. They've done jobs like this before and didn't talk.  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

These guys have worked all over the world. Dirt is their business. The data is all easily researched. They are highly intelligent. The notion that they would not be able to discern whether they were working in the dirt of Omaha or Salt Lake City or Albuquerque is pretty dubious. Hell, anybody with an I.Q. greater than 90 could tell they were likely getting paid with drug money, which means a city south of Denver, west of San Antonio is most likely. From there just a week's work, researching the records of maybe 50 or so large commercial laundries really narrows the list.

Keeping secrets in a post industrial society is really, really, hard.

 

 

So, drugs are only produced South of Denver and West of San Antonio?   You should tell the DEA so they can close all their offices outside of the Southwest  

I seriously doubt diggers are experts in identifying their exact location, based upon dirt they have never seen before.  Do you think an American digger could tell the difference between Munich dirt, Dresden dirt and Hamburg dirt, if he had never been to Germany?   

They might have a guess about where they were, but that is all it would be.  And they wouldn't be able to relay their guess to their families.  They could disappear and their families would only know they were (probably) somewhere in the US, probably working for some unknown drug dealer.  

At any rate, the R&R episode made all the early security into waste of time and resources.  

  

 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

These are a bunch of middle class guys from Germany. If 10 middle class American's are killed somewhere in the world it's front page news. All's you need is one reporter or politician notices and complains and the German government is pressuring the American government to do something. 

If the feds are involved it only takes one person to give them a clue. Someone at the bar or at the airport or something. 

Safer to let them go with a lot of cash. They've done jobs like this before and didn't talk.  

But if 10 American workers left on separate flights from different cities, not knowing what their final destination was, and with their families having only a vague knowledge of them going off on a secretive job, somewhere in the EU the locals would have no idea anything had happened.  

If the American families reported them missing, the EU authorities would have almost nothing to go on.  They wouldn't know if they were dead or alive or where they might be.   

In a nation as vast as the US, with no State  border checkpoints to cross, it would be even more of a needle in a haystack. 

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

He was just an entitled idiot who was sure he'd land on his feet because a) he thought his charm was irresistible, and b) he believed that the universe owed it to him.

So, kind of an actively criminal Jimmy/Saul. 😉

6 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I thought the opening was a bit farfetched, the taxi driver making such a big deal about recognizing Saul.  Is what Saul did that big a deal that an asshole is gonna confront him in a shopping mall in another state?  That almost makes me think that there's more to it, that it wasn't a random encounter.  But I suck at guessing at these plot lines.

I can't say I'm particularly adept at guessing plot lines - but the way the scene was played by the actors, it seemed to me that there was an element of threat behind the cabbie's attention - particularly when he was insisting Gene say Saul's catchphrase AND do the finger movement. So I think there's more to it than two guys who "happened" to recognize Gene - who doesn't really look that much like Saul in appearance and demeanor.

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I also don't think Mrs. Werner would buy the construction accident story, without a body and autopsy.  Was the story that he fell into a vat of acid and was disintegrated?

I assume they sent the body, Gus did say they had the funeral (as opposed to a memorial service).  Construction accidents can cause horrific damage, so it would be "easy" enough to send Werner's body back with enough of his head damaged that an autopsy wouldn't reveal a gunshot wound, even if Frau Werner demanded an autopsy.  For that matter, many Europeans cremate, and his ashes might be all that got sent back.

5 hours ago, scenario said:

The German workers have probably done other shady things in the past.

I agree. Anyone who'd sign up to be essentially imprisoned for that long, without knowing where they are, are bound to be those used to these kinds of demands. A solid citizen worker would be unlikely to go for that, even with a lot of bucks involved, and it would be even less likely that they'd be approached to do so.

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Re: Werner's wife - I think the idea was that she knew foul play was involved in her husband's death, but they bought her silence.

And since they had codes worked out, she knew his work tended to be shady.

4 hours ago, scenario said:

Crime is a business. They just can't kill everyone who works for them. Too many bodies attracts unwanted attention. 

Indeed.
 

3 hours ago, scenario said:

I don't think its honor. It's cold blooded risk assessment. He decided that the risk in paying off the employees was less than leaving a trail of bodies. 

I think it's a combination of both. We've seen Gus manage workers who were not in the business, and he had a lot of honor in dealing with them. He's definitely more cold blooded in the drug side of his business, but some of that would seep through as well.

 

 

 

 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, drugs are only produced South of Denver and West of San Antonio?   You should tell the DEA so they can close all their offices outside of the Southwest  

I seriously doubt diggers are experts in identifying their exact location, based upon dirt they have never seen before.  Do you think an American digger could tell the difference between Munich dirt, Dresden dirt and Hamburg dirt, if he had never been to Germany?   

They might have a guess about where they were, but that is all it would be.  And they wouldn't be able to relay their guess to their families.  They could disappear and their families would only know they were (probably) somewhere in the US, probably working for some unknown drug dealer.  

At any rate, the R&R episode made all the early security into waste of time and resources.  

  

 

 You only need to look at cities which contain large commercial laundries, and yes, it is much more probable that a large covert facility for a major drug cartel would be in a city in the American southwest. Yes, the soil of Albuquerque is quite different than that of Phoenix, Tucson, El Paso, etc..

[scenario]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But if 10 American workers left on separate flights from different cities, not knowing what their final destination was, and with their families having only a vague knowledge of them going off on a secretive job, somewhere in the EU the locals would have no idea anything had happened.  

If the American families reported them missing, the EU authorities would have almost nothing to go on.  They wouldn't know if they were dead or alive or where they might be.   

In a nation as vast as the US, with no State  border checkpoints to cross, it would be even more of a needle in a haystack. 

It's all a case of which is less risky. The workers all knew each other and had worked together. The spouses probably knew that they were going on a shady job in the U.S. If they all disappeared all at once it screams organized crime. We know nothing about the German side of it. Maybe they can track down the German contact that hired them. 

An intense search can find tiny clues. If they go home safely, the chance of an intense search is small. They probably won't report it and even if they do, what is the German police going to do with the information? It would more than likely end up buried in a file somewhere if there wasn't much pressure on the police. 

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 You only need to look at cities which contain large commercial laundries, and yes, it is much more probable that a large covert facility for a major drug cartel would be in a city in the American southwest. Yes, the soil of Albuquerque is quite different than that of Phoenix, Tucson, El Paso, etc..

What cities or regions don't have a large, commercial laundry?  Also, knowing it was a laundry might help the workers track down the location, when and if they got home.  But, if all their calls home were monitored, they would not have been able to pass that on to their families.  

This would be all the more reason for Fring to kill them, rather than send them home.  

The soil may or may not be very different in different cities.  It also might be that the soil is SW El Paso resembles the soil of NE ABQ more than the soil of Central ABQ does.  

But, regardless of all that ,the diggers would have zero frame of reference to know.  El Paso might sound or smell very different from ABQ, but if you have never smelled or heard either town, the sounds and smells would provide you no information about your location.  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

It's all a case of which is less risky. The workers all knew each other and had worked together. The spouses probably knew that they were going on a shady job in the U.S. If they all disappeared all at once it screams organized crime. We know nothing about the German side of it. Maybe they can track down the German contact that hired them. 

An intense search can find tiny clues. If they go home safely, the chance of an intense search is small. They probably won't report it and even if they do, what is the German police going to do with the information? It would more than likely end up buried in a file somewhere if there wasn't much pressure on the police. 

I don't know.  I think the German police would take a report that a man named Werner Ziegler was murdered by a drug lord building a meth lab under a commercial laundry in ABQ, whose enforcer was 60ish bald guy name Michael Ehrmantraut, than a vague one about 10 men going missing on an unknown job, in an unknown location somewhere in the US.   

I'm sure a detective who was concerned about his clearance rate would take the former case over the latter.

A quick inquiry on Mike would tell them that he was a suspect in the murder of 2 cops in Philly, and suddenly decided to take a gun rap for a known member of a vicious drug cartel operating in ABQ, who had assaulted him.  

They would then find that he was getting paid a large sum as a "security consultant" by Madrigal Electromotive, which happened to own LPH along with Gustavo Fring, who also happened to own a large, commercial laundry in ABQ.   

Leaving them alive leaves far more loose ends, IMO.  

Of course, you could use Mike's argument to Lydia that  here in the real world, we don't kill 11 people as some kind of prophylactic measure.  I think that would have made sense before they killed Werner.  But, once Werner was killed, I'd be worried about someone informing to get justice for Werner.   

[DangerousMinds]

46 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, drugs are only produced South of Denver and West of San Antonio?   You should tell the DEA so they can close all their offices outside of the Southwest  

I seriously doubt diggers are experts in identifying their exact location, based upon dirt they have never seen before.  Do you think an American digger could tell the difference between Munich dirt, Dresden dirt and Hamburg dirt, if he had never been to Germany?   

They might have a guess about where they were, but that is all it would be.  And they wouldn't be able to relay their guess to their families.  They could disappear and their families would only know they were (probably) somewhere in the US, probably working for some unknown drug dealer.  

At any rate, the R&R episode made all the early security into waste of time and resources.  

  

 

Yes, who knew all drug activity came from the Southwest?! 🤣🤣🤣

Edited February 24, 2020 by DangerousMinds

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

didn't Gus say the finishing of the meth lab was on mothballs until Lalo was either dead or back in Mexico? So that suggests that he is one of those two things in Breaking Bad because we know the lab gets finished.

He did say that.  Look, I barely care about the building of the superlab story beyond my initial "huh, so that's how that got there" reaction.  But within that context, it doesn't bother me that Mike is putting the various engineers on flights back home very much alive.  They surely already have some idea of what kind of people they're working for and if they didn't before, disappearing Werner certainly would have set them them straight about it.  They're likely very very well compensated.  And if they play ball, they'll probably be invited back to finish the job after the Lalo situation blows over one way or the other and be very well compensated yet again.  We know the superlab is finished by the time BB rolls around.  As with Gene hiding out in plain sight at the Cinnabon counter, never underestimate how much people don't care or don't pay attention to things that either don't affect them or it's in their best interest not to notice. 

An awful lot of things have happened on both shows that someone could have made into an issue, plenty of them things that people were sure would become an issue but just didn't.  Unless you're Chuck McGill obsessing endlessly over minutia to prove you're right, not everything is going to get blown up into something bigger.

[ShadowFacts]

46 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can't say I'm particularly adept at guessing plot lines - but the way the scene was played by the actors, it seemed to me that there was an element of threat behind the cabbie's attention - particularly when he was insisting Gene say Saul's catchphrase AND do the finger movement. So I think there's more to it than two guys who "happened" to recognize Gene - who doesn't really look that much like Saul in appearance and demeanor.

Right?  It was odd and I will need to see it again, but it seemed like they did not approach him from straight in front, they came from the side perhaps? Which doesn't exactly jibe with what Jeff said, and since I don't think he drove him from the hospital to the mall, how did he know where to find him? I think Gene was "made" before the cabbie approached at the mall. Who knows, we may not find out much about that if the show follows its history of only having a Gene vignette in each season opener. I wish they would expand the Gene scenes into more episodes because that's of more interest to me at the moment.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Another small moment I thoroughly enjoyed was the ambush of the prosecutor by the TV crew.  At first, I thought Saul had hired another crew and was loudly announcing himself to the DA's office that he was about to become their worst nightmare.   I never did see a mic flag identifying the media entity.  Anyway...the "Really?" reaction of that poor fella was priceless.  He was very much a "Mike" to me with his taciturn response.   Who is this "Saul" joker, eh?  Hmm...he was dressed just like the Joker.  

I liked that, too.  I thought it was that old friend of Jimmy's who also hung around the court house taking court appointed cases, usually eating, the one who was so jealous of Jimmy after he got his big posh job with the car and other benefits.  I can't find a full cast list to verify it, does anyone know?

 

4 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

Every time Lalo is onscreen I think he is going to do something terrible.  We've seen some of what he does, but I don't think we've seen the worst of it. 

Me too.  I've always thought Todd was the only true sociopath in the BB/BCS story, but I'm afraid Lalo might be another one.

[Clanstarling]

Just now, JudyObscure said:

I liked that, too.  I thought it was that old friend of Jimmy's who also hung around the court house taking court appointed cases, usually eating, the one who was so jealous of Jimmy after he got his big posh job with the car and other benefits.  I can't find a full cast list to verify it, does anyone know?

He is the assistant DA Jimmy dickered with all the time. They were friendly adversaries.

I enjoyed that scene too - particularly the inside the vending machine shot. That was fun.

[Ailianna]

18 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The more I think about it, I think it would be horrible writing for this not to come back on Kim.  How could her client not eventually recognize Saul from his ads?   Maybe she could convince him that she lied for his own good or there could be a darker resolution to the problem.  But, I can't see any scenario in which he doesn't discover Kim duped him.   

 

This is nothing to me.  A lot of prosecutors end up leaving and going to the defense.  I've even known people who specifically hired as their defense attorneys former prosecutors who had prosecuted them.  They liked what they saw and when they had a chance to get it for themselves, they did.  She could always just say he quit the DAs office after that appearance.

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Another small moment I thoroughly enjoyed was the ambush of the prosecutor by the TV crew.  At first, I thought Saul had hired another crew and was loudly announcing himself to the DA's office that he was about to become their worst nightmare.   I never did see a mic flag identifying the media entity.  Anyway...the "Really?" reaction of that poor fella was priceless.  He was very much a "Mike" to me with his taciturn response.   Who is this "Saul" joker, eh?  Hmm...he was dressed just like the Joker.  

I thought that was his amatuer film crew, with the girl dolled up to look older and as the main reporter.

[SoMuchTV]

5 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I thought that was his amatuer film crew, with the girl dolled up to look older and as the main reporter.

Wasn’t it? That was what I thought too. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Right?  It was odd and I will need to see it again, but it seemed like they did not approach him from straight in front, they came from the side perhaps? Which doesn't exactly jibe with what Jeff said, and since I don't think he drove him from the hospital to the mall, how did he know where to find him?

In the season 4 premiere, Jimmy gets into Jeff's cab and asks to be taken to Cottonwood Mall. (We learn in this episode that it's because he left his car there when the ambulance took him to the hospital.) Then, when Jimmy notices that the cab driver is from Albuquerque and is staring at him, the first thing he does is to look down and realize that the Cinnabon logo on his shirt is partially visible, and he adjusts his jacket to cover it.

The implication is that Jimmy's paranoia was not unfounded -- that Jeff did indeed clock him as Saul, see the logo on his jacket, and realize he must work at the Cinnabon at Cottonwood Mall.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What cities or regions don't have a large, commercial laundry?  Also, knowing it was a laundry might help the workers track down the location, when and if they got home.  But, if all their calls home were monitored, they would not have been able to pass that on to their families.  

This would be all the more reason for Fring to kill them, rather than send them home.  

The soil may or may not be very different in different cities.  It also might be that the soil is SW El Paso resembles the soil of NE ABQ more than the soil of Central ABQ does.  

But, regardless of all that ,the diggers would have zero frame of reference to know.  El Paso might sound or smell very different from ABQ, but if you have never smelled or heard either town, the sounds and smells would provide you no information about your location.  

Look, we aren't going to agree. You don't think a major covert drug cartel construction project is far more likely to be built in the Southwest U.S., than in other states. I do. You don't think experienced excavators could quickly deduce they were digging in soil typical of the American Southwest. I do. You don't think knowing that the site is a large commercial laundry in one of those states narrows the possibilities very significantly. I do. You think Gus could be confident that killing the Germans would mean the lab's location would remain secret. I think killing them would increase the chance of discovery, once Werner was able to have unmonitored conversations with his wife.

It's ok for us to disagree.

 

 

[MrWhyt]

13 hours ago, GussieK said:

  Hide contents

So if you hadn't seen El Camino, you wouldn't understand this?  I did see El Camino.  Just checking.

   I am putting in spoiler tags just in case this isn't allowed. 

I don't see why that would be the case. I haven't watched El Camino yet (so much media to consume so little time) and I knew what was going on.