S05.E01: Magic Man

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Now doing business as Saul Goodman, Jimmy unveils an unorthodox strategy for client development that tests Kim's tolerance of his new legal persona. Lalo searches for the mysterious Michael, only to discover a problem within his own operation.

It's back!  Season 5 coming at you 2020.02.23.

 

[toodles]

1 hour ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

 

 

It's back!  Season 5 coming at you 2020.02.23.

 

Woo hoo!!!!

[Pike Ludwell]

I bet it starts with a continuation of the Gene situation, as in every new season so far. Maybe that will go on a bit longer this time? Last time they left us with Gene being dropped off by that cab driver, who seemed to be acting truly suspicious, and also had that Albuquerque souvenir by his windshield. Was Gene being paranoid or was there something developing there?

Edited February 23, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[Spartan Girl]

HOLY CRAP. WHAT AN OPENING.

So I'm guessing Gene's way of "fixing" the sitauation ultimately winds up fucking himself, as was alluded to in El Camino? Oh damn you Vince Gilligan, are you really going to make us wait until the next and final season to find out?

Edited February 24, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Lonesome Rhodes]

My absolute must going in was that we see Gene in some measure of significance.  Check.  Robert Forster on top of this?  An all-time TV moment for me.  Just wow.  Does anyone know if this was his final performance as an actor?

Like Mike, I needed no retainer.  I am all in.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Bryce Lynch]

Yawn.  They make us wait 2 years and then almost nothing happens in the season premiere.   

I find Lalo's character to be both tedious and unrealistic.  He feels like a character from a whole different show outside of the BB, BCS universe.

I was also unrealistic that they didn't kill all of Werner's men.  If killing Werner was necessary, killing them was just as necessary.

This was probably the worst episode of the series.   

 

 

 

[Dianaofthehunt]

I sure hope someone plugs Lalo soon. He is nothing but snooping trouble.

I’m surprised to see the Germans being sent home, but after the Werner fiasco....

Saul’s hair in that tent!

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

I sure hope someone plugs Lalo soon. He is nothing but snooping trouble.

I’m surprised to see the Germans being sent home, but after the Werner fiasco....

Saul’s hair in that tent!

Lalo is such a poorly written and acted character.  I wish they would kill him.

But, he has to be alive in BB, because when Walt and Jesse kidnap Saul, he thinks Lalo sent them.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

So I'm guessing Gene's way of "fixing" the sitauation ultimately winds up fucking himself, as was alluded to in El Camino? Oh damn you Vince Gilligan, are you really going to make us wait until the next and final season to find out?

What was alluded to in El Camino?

[MrWhyt]

46 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

My absolute must going in was that we see Gene in some measure of significance.  Check.  Robert Forster on top of this?  An all-time TV moment for me.  Just wow.  Does anyone know if this was his final performance as an actor?

Like Mike, I needed no retainer.  I am all in.

they shot this scene during the production of El Camino, I don't know where that fits in the timeline of his final jobs.

[LittleIggy]

Yay! It’s back! So cool to see Euell again. I loved Saul’s spiel to the people getting the phones. 
I knew Kim would use Jimmy’s scam to get the stupid client to take the deal.

[Blakeston]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kim's dumbass client ends up seeing a Saul Goodman commercial later on, realizes that he was conned and opens his mouth about it.

She could face huge professional complications if word got out that she lied to her client in such a way.

[Quilt Fairy]

41 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yawn.  They make us wait 2 years and then almost nothing happens in the season premiere. 

ITA.  This felt like it was 75% Breaking Bad and 25% BCS.  And yet, still boring. 

[Dev F]

"I know who you are. You know who you are. Let's just get past that." That's gonna be the theme for the year, I'm guessing.

That seems to be what's going on with all of our characters -- everyone's in denial about who they've become, from Jimmy imagining that he's still walking some thin line between respectability and sleaze, to Kim struggling to hold on to that one part of the law she thinks of as pure and noble, to Mike shutting himself off rather than face the full-measure murderer within. Even the Gus/Lalo showdown is the plot echo of that character arc, as Gus apologizes for an imaginary failure to hide his actual treachery, and Lalo only pretends to believe him. Presumably the season will be about how everyone comes to terms with who they really are now.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Kim's dumbass client ends up seeing a Saul Goodman commercial later on, realizes that he was conned and opens his mouth about it.

She could face huge professional complications if word got out that she lied to her client in such a way.

Good point.  But, I couldn't care less af this point.  All the back and forth with Kim torn between wanting to be an honest lawyer and a con artist is played out.   

The more I think about it, I think it would be horrible writing for this not to come back on Kim.  How could her client not eventually recognize Saul from his ads?   Maybe she could convince him that she lied for his own good or there could be a darker resolution to the problem.  But, I can't see any scenario in which he doesn't discover Kim duped him.   

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[TVFan17]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Lalo is such a poorly written and acted character.  I wish they would kill him.

But, he has to be alive in BB, because when Walt and Jesse kidnap Saul, he thinks Lalo sent them.

I wonder about Lalo's fate by that point.  I know that Saul thinks that Lalo sent Walt and Jesse, but...

Spoiler

isn't Gus taunting Hector in a later season of BB about how all of the Salamancas are dead?  If I am remembering that part correctly, then maybe Lalo did die during the Breaking Bad timeline but we just didn't know it because he didn't have anything to do with Walt and Jesse and we had no reason to meet Lalo at that point.  Wouldn't Gus know if Lalo was alive or dead (unless Lalo used Ed's services to disappear)?

Maybe he died during the BB years and Saul didn't even know it yet, for some reason.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by TVFan17

[gallimaufry]

Not the best episode but some good features.  It does feel very dark and joyless at the moment... even the magic man Saul stuff doesn't have the cheeky thrill of previous capers.  I think that's probably right as it really sells Jimmy's descent into darkness but I'm looking forward to Kim regaining the front foot again, even if it means going against Saul.  Watching the vice tighten on her character is quite harrowing. 

I like Lalo well enough as a character but I wanted to see more from Mike and Nacho.  Mike got a bit more play at the end at least and I enjoyed him rejecting Gus.

The cinematography was quite dark and monochrome, quite gritty, not like BB and BCS have been for a long time.

The Gene scenes were decent - loved Robert Forster.  But the taxi driver scene was just... weird.

I really miss Howard and I hope he has a lot more to do this season.  That world of HHM was a huge part of the show and I hope they keep it up.

I've always loved BCS and although this isn't the show at the strongest, I still have high hopes for it to stick the landing.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

I wonder about Lalo's fate by that point.  I know that Saul thinks that Lalo sent Walt and Jesse, but...

  Reveal spoiler

isn't Gus taunting Hector in a later season of BB about how all of the Salamancas are dead?  If I am remembering that part correctly, then maybe Lalo did die during the Breaking Bad timeline but we just didn't know it because he didn't have anything to do with Walt and Jesse and we had no reason to meet Lalo at that point.  Wouldn't Gus know if Lalo was alive or dead (unless Lalo used Ed's services to disappear)?

Maybe he died during the BB years and Saul didn't even know it yet, for some reason.

 

I would guess that Lalo died somewhere between episode 2:8, where Saul is afraid he has sent men to kill him, and 4:11, when Fring taunts Hector about the Salamanca name dying with him.

My best guess is they will say he died in 3:8, along with Juan Bolsa, during the Federales' crackdown on the cartel, following the assassination attempt on Hank.  

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

they shot this scene during the production of El Camino, I don't know where that fits in the timeline of his final jobs.

Spoiler

So if you hadn't seen El Camino, you wouldn't understand this?  I did see El Camino.  Just checking.

   I am putting in spoiler tags just in case this isn't allowed. 

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

What was alluded to in El Camino?

The vacuum cleaner guy told Jesse that Walt and Saul "made their choice" which implies that Saul blew his cover and came out of hiding like Walt did

[Bryce Lynch]

Another thing about Kim deceiving her client was that she did it front of a witness, his wife.  I have to think that was intentional on the part of the writers.  It won't just be her word against her criminal client's.  

I am thinking either she gets disbarred over this, or Saul takes some extreme measures to silence the client, like having him killed or threatening his wife and child.

I wouldn't be surprised ADA Ericsen uses this to take revenge on Kim for the Huell letter writing scam.

It would be ironic if Kim gets destroyed by a relatively well meaning, spur of the moment scam, that Saul talked her into, as opposed to the elaborate Huell and Mesa Verde blueprint scams that she came up with, or her working with Jimmy to destroy Chuck to save his career.

 

 

 

[JudyObscure]

I've  hated Lalo since he dared to litter in Gus Fring's parking lot -- (disrespect!), but I don't really find him poorly written.  I think it's just barely possible that a nephew of Hector Salamanca's might grow up so spoiled and secure that, unlike everyone else in the drug business he doesn't feel that fear that makes the rest of them so careful and intense all the time -- and makes their scenes such good TV for us.  Neither does Lalo carry himself with the sinister macho style of the others and that could be that, unlike the twins, he didn't spend much time within the business when he was young.  So what we have is an ordinary, over-confident salesman type of jerk  who throws an off key note into every scene he's in because he's tone deaf to everything around him..  I can't imagine he will last very long, if he irritates us just think how Gus must hate him.

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

the more I think about it, I think it would be horrible writing for this not to come back on Kim.  How could her client not eventually recognize Saul from his ads?   Maybe she could convince him that she lied for his own good or there could be a darker resolution to the problem. 

I agree, but I think it's the wife, home with the baby, who will spot him and figure it out.  She's so much smarter than her husband.

 

3 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

The Gene scenes were decent - loved Robert Forster.  But the taxi driver scene was just... weird.

Really.  We all see people who look more like someone on TV than Gene looks like Saul and we don't absolutely insist they're the same person.  Honestly the taxi driver and Lalo in the same episode was just too much obnoxious  jerkitude at one time.

[ShadowFacts]

The NY Times reviewer thinks this is the best season premiere yet, and I couldn't disagree more. The only decent part for me was the Gene Takovic opener, I am curious how he thinks he can fix his problem. I am over Kim being pulled into slimy moves, then looking torn about it, we've seen this time and again. I can't abide Lalo. I am also not finding control freak Gus very compelling anymore. When he said "choose your next words carefully", I laughed. I was happy that Mike ignored that suggestion. Maybe it's because the waits between seasons are too long that I'm a little cranky about not being more bowled over, but I felt there was nothing new to see here. Too bad. I'm hoping the next episode picks up the pace and draws me back in, but this episode was just sub-par.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

43 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The NY Times reviewer thinks this is the best season premiere yet, and I couldn't disagree more. The only decent part for me was the Gene Takovic opener, I am curious how he thinks he can fix his problem. I am over Kim being pulled into slimy moves, then looking torn about it, we've seen this time and again. I can't abide Lalo. I am also not finding control freak Gus very compelling anymore. When he said "choose your next words carefully", I laughed. I was happy that Mike ignored that suggestion. Maybe it's because the waits between seasons are too long that I'm a little cranky about not being more bowled over, but I felt there was nothing new to see here. Too bad. I'm hoping the next episode picks up the pace and draws me back in, but this episode was just sub-par.

 

I am giving you a like for this comment, but I actually liked the episode too.

I liked the extended Gene intro.  For a moment I was thinking he was in witness protection, although I couldn't figure out how that would happen.  Interestingly enough, I thought Jimmy as Gene was taking good care of his Cinnabon as Gus did with his cover chicken restaurants. 

[Blakeston]

It will really annoy me if Kim's gambit (with fooling her client) ends up being her downfall, because the client was a dumbass, and she should have just let him take his chances.

It would be one thing if he was taking a big gamble because he was determined to be there when his wife gave birth. But that part of it didn't even seem to enter his mind.

He was just an entitled idiot who was sure he'd land on his feet because a) he thought his charm was irresistible, and b) he believed that the universe owed it to him. 

(I realize that Kim and Jimmy's gambits are about their own need to take risks as much as anything else. But it was a lot easier to root for them when they were saving Huell, because Huell really was being railroaded.)

[NYCFree]

The frustration of Kim talking to the arrogant and idiotic client really got to me. Although I never practiced criminal defense law, I did have occasion to sit in on two of those exact same conversations where the accused was too young and smug to take a deal that would save them YEARS of jail time.

I actually like the character of Lalo, in that he is so very annoying to all around him. Will it come back to bite Nacho in the ass that he denied knowing a “Michael” yet Michael was the one who put away Lalo’s cousin Tuco?

[edhopper]

Clue about Saul from El Camino:

Spoiler

 

Ed (Forester) says to Jesse

“From where I see it, you made your own luck. As did your former partner. As did your lawyer.”

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by edhopper

[Lonesome Rhodes]

For me, the way TPTB take their sweet time, showing us excruciating and revelatory detail, is a gift.  So much of entertainment anymore is wham, bam, thank you ma'am; hitting us over the head with obvious and ham-handed plot development.  

The Gene sequence was a perfect example.  Goodness, the lengths he went to trying to discern if he were, indeed, "made."  What a hellacious existence.  I loved seeing the use of pay phones, and the annoying ask for another 50 cents to complete the call.  The irony of Gene doing his damnedest to just mind his own business, not calling attention to himself, only to have him be unforgettable as the weird customer who wouldn't even eat (thus creating the very risk he was trying to avoid) was wonderful.  

The fear and the detail in sending the engineers back to Europe.  Marvelous moment.  Punching out the one dude who dissed Werner and accepting the insult that he was not the man Werner was?  Pure Mike.  I cherish those moments.

TPTB could easily have wrapped things up in three "seasons."  That they fleshed things out, and continue to do so, gives us another year before we have to say farewell.  I m grateful.

Finally, I learned a long time ago to not doubt that some tremendously delicious denouements are coming.  All set up by the seemingly unimportant, if not obsessive, lengths Gilligan & Co. takes us to get there.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It will really annoy me if Kim's gambit (with fooling her client) ends up being her downfall, because the client was a dumbass, and she should have just let him take his chances.

It would be one thing if he was taking a big gamble because he was determined to be there when his wife gave birth. But that part of it didn't even seem to enter his mind.

He was just an entitled idiot who was sure he'd land on his feet because a) he thought his charm was irresistible, and b) he believed that the universe owed it to him. 

(I realize that Kim and Jimmy's gambits are about their own need to take risks as much as anything else. But it was a lot easier to root for them when they were saving Huell, because Huell really was being railroaded.)

I think it would be great storytelling if Kim got destroyed by her idiot client and her reluctant, well meaning, impulsive decision to go along with the plan her idiot boyfriend pushed on her.   

I think that would be so much more unexpected, ironic, and unfair, than if she was taken down by one of her own, thrill seeking scams.   

You would think it would have been obvious to her, and especially to Saul, that she could never get away with it.  He knows that he plans to become a famous face among the criminal element of ABQ, and he had already been on TV with his "Gimmee Jimmy" ads.  How could he think that her client or his wife wouldn't eventually recognize him?  

I'm going to be annoyed if this doesn't come back to haunt Kim, because IRL it almost certainly would.   

I wonder if the sequence with Gene getting recognized as Saul, after all those years, was a hint that he was going to be recognized by Kim's client.   

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think it would be great storytelling if Kim got destroyed by her idiot client and her reluctant, well meaning, impulsive decision to go along with the plan her idiot boyfriend pushed on her.   

I think that would be so much more unexpected, ironic, and unfair, than if she was taken down by one of her own, thrill seeking scams.   

You would think it would have been obvious to her, and especially to Saul, that she could never get away with it.  He knows that he plans to become a famous face among the criminal element of ABQ, and he had already been on TV with his "Gimmee Jimmy" ads.  How could he think that her client or his wife wouldn't eventually recognize him?  

I'm going to be annoyed if this doesn't come back to haunt Kim, because IRL it almost certainly would.   

I wonder if the sequence with Gene getting recognized as Saul, after all those years, was a hint that he was going to be recognized by Kim's client.   

I agree that Kim's downfall being caused by trying to do a good thing, for an undeserving moron, is good writing. The world is never fair, it only occasionally appears like it might be due to random outcomes.

I'm not sure if the failure to kill the rest of the German crew is really a plot hole. Werner's wife now also knows entirely too much about Werner's adventures in the Southwest United States, and Gus can't be sure exactly how much she knows, or what she has told anyone in Germany. The Germans all knew each other prior to this project. If they all disappear, Werner's wife, or someone she has confided in,  could trigger a major, FBI-led investigation pretty easily. Really, the least risky course is probably paying off everyone, and telling Werner's now-widow that he died in a construction accident.

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It will really annoy me if Kim's gambit (with fooling her client) ends up being her downfall, because the client was a dumbass, and she should have just let him take his chances.

 

Quoted for truth.  Also, because the client is such a dumbass, even if he does start seeing BCS billboards, he won't know that he was duped.  He'll just think that Saul  is also a district attorney.  That's even assuming he recognizes him. 

I thought the opening was a bit farfetched, the taxi driver making such a big deal about recognizing Saul.  Is what Saul did that big a deal that an asshole is gonna confront him in a shopping mall in another state?  That almost makes me think that there's more to it, that it wasn't a random encounter.  But I suck at guessing at these plot lines.

[ShadowFacts]

Is Ed the vacuum cleaner man being punitive when he doubles the price for a new identity? Greedy for sure. Doesn't he give a limited warranty for his work? Just kidding, of course, but I always thought putting Saul in Omaha was a bad choice, he should have gone more than two states away.

7 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The fear and the detail in sending the engineers back to Europe.  Marvelous moment.  Punching out the one dude who dissed Werner and accepting the insult that he was not the man Werner was?  Pure Mike.  I cherish those moments.

It didn't hurt that the second guy was way bigger. But seriously, I did enjoy him telling Gus he could keep the retainer.

 

[Bannon]

I thought the episode was enjoyable. The Gene intro was terrific, driving home what agony it is to live while constantly looking over one's shoulder, with the suggestion that Gene/Saul/Jimmy has reached a turning point once again.

I don't think Lalo is poorly written. He's certainly a sociopath, and sociopaths are fundamentally tedious, but the industry he's in attracts a lot of sociopaths. 

As always, really appreciated Jonathan Banks' portrayal of a morally conflicted man getting increasingly disgusted with himself, while his inner pain leads him to allow the process of self-degradation to continue. Really a wonderful partnership between writer and actor.

Finally, I laughed out loud during Saul's marketing pitch, to Kim, of cell phones and criminal defense for skells. No, it wasn't squat cobbler funny, which may be the most hilarious thing I've ever seen on t.v., but there have been very, very, few heavily serialized t.v. shows that have made me laugh consistently, the way Gilligan & Co. do. 

 

 

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

Quoted for truth.  Also, because the client is such a dumbass, even if he does start seeing BCS billboards, he won't know that he was duped.  He'll just think that Saul  is also a district attorney.  That's even assuming he recognizes him. 

I thought the opening was a bit farfetched, the taxi driver making such a big deal about recognizing Saul.  Is what Saul did that big a deal that an asshole is gonna confront him in a shopping mall in another state?  That almost makes me think that there's more to it, that it wasn't a random encounter.  But I suck at guessing at these plot lines.

In my experience, there are a lot of people that consider being on television a lot to be a really, really, big deal. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic, but people frequently are. I thought the cab driver character was quite believable

[sistermagpie]

 

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

Clue about Saul from El Camino:

Not sure how to do spoilers here, so this link is an article that explains it.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/did-el-camino-a-breaking-bad-movie-just-predict-a-tragic-ending-for-saul-goodman-in-better-call-saul.html/

 

Thanks everyone for this explanation! I had completely forgotten that line. But I like that it's really incredibly vague so whatever ultimately happens with Saul, the statement will be true. He might not even know what happened to Saul in the future when he said that line--all three of them had gotten themselves into enough trouble that they needed a vacuum, after all.

17 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

Quoted for truth.  Also, because the client is such a dumbass, even if he does start seeing BCS billboards, he won't know that he was duped.  He'll just think that Saul  is also a district attorney.  That's even assuming he recognizes him. 

 

That's the way I lean too, though I'll buy it if it comes back to bite her, especially if the wife's the one making the connections or there's some other thing that happens. I really do imagine that the guy could recognize Saul or not from a commercial and still just assume Kim was telling the truth. 

18 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

I thought the opening was a bit farfetched, the taxi driver making such a big deal about recognizing Saul.  Is what Saul did that big a deal that an asshole is gonna confront him in a shopping mall in another state?  That almost makes me think that there's more to it, that it wasn't a random encounter.  But I suck at guessing at these plot lines.

Or it could be he's just one of those guys who has to be right, especially about some tiny personal thing like this. It would make him a bit like Werner, a guy who just doesn't understand who he's messing with. Only in Werner's case he was annoying a tiger where the cab driver was just destroying a guy without realizing it. Though we'll see what Saul does to him to take care of the problem. 

That's the thing about Saul's life--a guy like this would just be comical and annoying in a different universe, but Saul's--or Gene's--situation makes him sinister and dangerous.

 

[edhopper]

What happens to Kim is as big a question as what will happen to Gene in Omaha. We didn't see any of Saul's life in BB so we don't know if Kim was still around.

The only thing I am sure is that neither will play out until the last episodes.

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I agree that Kim's downfall being caused by trying to do a good thing, for an undeserving moron, is good writing. The world is never fair, it only occasionally appears like it might be due to random outcomes.

I'm not sure if the failure to kill the rest of the German crew is really a plot hole. Werner's wife now also knows entirely too much about Werner's adventures in the Southwest United States, and Gus can't be sure exactly how much she knows, or what she has told anyone in Germany. The Germans all knew each other prior to this project. If they all disappear, Werner's wife, or someone she has confided in,  could trigger a major, FBI-led investigation pretty easily. Really, the least risky course is probably paying off everyone, and telling Werner's now-widow that he died in a construction accident.

Honestly, I think the whole Germans plot was botched.  First, there was ultra tight secrecy, where they went to great lengths to keep Werner and the other prospective engineer, from even knowing where they would be digging.   

Then, Fring meets Werner fact to face and tells him his real name.  That seemed like a totally unnecessary risk on Fring's part, and Fring is usually an extremely cautious man.  Mike should have been the face of the Fring organization to Werner.  

But, what was truly absurd was them taking the whole crew to a local ABQ strip club and bar for there R&R.  If secrecy was so important, they should have either brought hookers, blindfolded or in the back of a truck with no window, to and from the warehouse.  Or, they could have driven all the men to and Vegas or some other city hundreds of miles away, in a similar manner, to get their R&R.

Once they took the crew to the local strip club, I don't see how Werner going AWOL to spend a weekend with his wife at a spa was a big deal.  The secrecy had already been totally breached.   

I also don't think Mrs. Werner would buy the construction accident story, without a body and autopsy.  Was the story that he fell into a vat of acid and was disintegrated?   

I also don't really get what is keeping the Germans quiet, back in Germany.  They got their money and they are home.  Does Fring have that much reach in Germany?  Does Peter Schuler?   It would seem like any of them could anonymously contact German authorities or the DEA and tip them off.   Fring having Werner killed would make this far more likely, IMO.  

I think the logical resolution to that story would be the Germans all being buried beneath the super lab.   

 

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In my experience, there are a lot of people that consider being on television a lot to be a really, really, big deal. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic, but people frequently are. I thought the cab driver character was quite believable

I am guessing that the cab driver was pretty sure he recognized him, and realized he could blackmail him, so he went to the mall to confirm it was really Saul Goodman.  I don't think he was just a starstruck fanboi of Saul's.    

I took it that Gene realized he was about to be blackmailed, so he called Best Quality Vacuum to be relocated, before changing his mind and deciding to handle it himself.  I am guessing the cabby and his buddy might be taking a trip to Belize.  

[scenario]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Honestly, I think the whole Germans plot was botched.  First, there was ultra tight secrecy, where they went to great lengths to keep Werner and the other prospective engineer, from even knowing where they would be digging.   

Then, Fring meets Werner fact to face and tells him his real name.  That seemed like a totally unnecessary risk on Fring's part, and Fring is usually an extremely cautious man.  Mike should have been the face of the Fring organization to Werner.  

But, what was truly absurd was them taking the whole crew to a local ABQ strip club and bar for there R&R.  If secrecy was so important, they should have either brought hookers, blindfolded or in the back of a truck with no window, to and from the warehouse.  Or, they could have driven all the men to and Vegas or some other city hundreds of miles away, in a similar manner, to get their R&R.

Once they took the crew to the local strip club, I don't see how Werner going AWOL to spend a weekend with his wife at a spa was a big deal.  The secrecy had already been totally breached.   

I also don't think Mrs. Werner would buy the construction accident story, without a body and autopsy.  Was the story that he fell into a vat of acid and was disintegrated?   

I also don't really get what is keeping the Germans quiet, back in Germany.  They got their money and they are home.  Does Fring have that much reach in Germany?  Does Peter Schuler?   It would seem like any of them could anonymously contact German authorities or the DEA and tip them off.   Fring having Werner killed would make this far more likely, IMO.  

I think the logical resolution to that story would be the Germans all being buried beneath the super lab.   

 

The German workers have probably done other shady things in the past. They've got their money. Why get involved? If they tell a German police officer that they worked for an American drug cartel somewhere within a few hundred miles of ABQ, its more likely to backfire on them. They probably don't want the local cops or the German IRS looking too closely at their business. 

On the other hand if they kill the whole batch of them, that's a real good story for a reporter. Reporter hears about it and talks to victims spouse. Want's more details and calls a friend in the U.S. but the friend can't find anything about an accident killing 10 German workers in the papers. They start asking the widows questions and find out that they didn't know the name of the company or even the state that the accident happened in. Very suspicious. 

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am guessing that the cab driver was pretty sure he recognized him, and realized he could blackmail him, so he went to the mall to confirm it was really Saul Goodman.  I don't think he was just a starstruck fanboi of Saul's.    

I took it that Gene realized he was about to be blackmailed, so he called Best Quality Vacuum to be relocated, before changing his mind and deciding to handle it himself.  I am guessing the cabby and his buddy might be taking a trip to Belize.  

It really doesn't matter if the cab driver was an over eager fan or planning to blackmail Saul. Saul is going to assume the worst. Even if the guy's totally innocent, he might talk to friends back in ABQ and mention that he saw Saul and find out that there's a reward for information leading to Saul's arrest. The guy's dangerous to Saul either way. 

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Honestly, I think the whole Germans plot was botched.  First, there was ultra tight secrecy, where they went to great lengths to keep Werner and the other prospective engineer, from even knowing where they would be digging.   

Then, Fring meets Werner fact to face and tells him his real name.  That seemed like a totally unnecessary risk on Fring's part, and Fring is usually an extremely cautious man.  Mike should have been the face of the Fring organization to Werner.  

But, what was truly absurd was them taking the whole crew to a local ABQ strip club and bar for there R&R.  If secrecy was so important, they should have either brought hookers, blindfolded or in the back of a truck with no window, to and from the warehouse.  Or, they could have driven all the men to and Vegas or some other city hundreds of miles away, in a similar manner, to get their R&R.

Once they took the crew to the local strip club, I don't see how Werner going AWOL to spend a weekend with his wife at a spa was a big deal.  The secrecy had already been totally breached.   

I also don't think Mrs. Werner would buy the construction accident story, without a body and autopsy.  Was the story that he fell into a vat of acid and was disintegrated?   

I also don't really get what is keeping the Germans quiet, back in Germany.  They got their money and they are home.  Does Fring have that much reach in Germany?  Does Peter Schuler?   It would seem like any of them could anonymously contact German authorities or the DEA and tip them off.   Fring having Werner killed would make this far more likely, IMO.  

I think the logical resolution to that story would be the Germans all being buried beneath the super lab.   

 

The entire attempt, which is an understandable impulse, to keep a project like this completely secret, is likely doomed from the start. The Germans know they are within a finite radius of Denver. From soil composition these men, with their educations, would likely be able to deduce what general direction they were from Denver. They know they are working under a large commercial laundry. With that much to go on, really, a few days resesrch would narrow the possibilities pretty significantly, and from there it is only a matter of doing some in depth property ownership research.

These guys weren't easily replaceable slaves, and Gus was committed to a pretty tight tomeline. The Germans had more leverage than one might imagine.

We can agree to disagree. As usual.

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am guessing that the cab driver was pretty sure he recognized him, and realized he could blackmail him, so he went to the mall to confirm it was really Saul Goodman.  I don't think he was just a starstruck fanboi of Saul's.    

I took it that Gene realized he was about to be blackmailed, so he called Best Quality Vacuum to be relocated, before changing his mind and deciding to handle it himself.  I am guessing the cabby and his buddy might be taking a trip to Belize.  

I think it's likely a combination of both.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bannon

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, scenario said:

The German workers have probably done other shady things in the past. They've got their money. Why get involved? If they tell a German police officer that they worked for an American drug cartel somewhere within a few hundred miles of ABQ, its more likely to backfire on them. They probably don't want the local cops or the German IRS looking too closely at their business. 

On the other hand if they kill the whole batch of them, that's a real good story for a reporter. Reporter hears about it and talks to victims spouse. Want's more details and calls a friend in the U.S. but the friend can't find anything about an accident killing 10 German workers in the papers. They start asking the widows questions and find out that they didn't know the name of the company or even the state that the accident happened in. Very suspicious. 

I would think one or more of the Germans might snitch out of loyalty to Werner.  I don't think anyone except maybe Mrs. Werner would have had any idea where the German workers had gone.  I think Mike and Fring could have trusted the hole in the desert or under the lab they left them in a lot more than they could trust the Germans to keep quiet.  

 Plus, they could have done it anonymously.  The knew Mike's last name and I would bet chatty Werner probably let Fring's name slip to his men over beers in the compound, at least once.  

The APD would recognize Mike's name from the Tuco Salamanca assault case and the Philadelphia PD investigation and all kinds of red flags would have been raised.   

Honestly, they probably would have sent Mrs. Werner to Belize instead of letting her go back to Germany.  Werner suddenly dying in a "construction accident" after missing their rendezvous at the spa, and ordering her so abruptly and angrily to go back to the airport would have made her very suspicious. 

IMO, there were a bunch of plot holes bigger than the hole under the laundry in that story line.  

 

[Blakeston]

i'm not sure Kim was actually helping her client. I think a considerable prison sentence would have actually taught him something. The way it played out, he'll think he beat the system by sweet-talking his lawyer into something she was reluctant to do.

If any of their scams was done for a "good" reason, I'd say it was the one with Huell. Huell never should have been facing prison time for assault on a police officer, when he had no idea that the guy was a cop.

Re: Werner's wife - I think the idea was that she knew foul play was involved in her husband's death, but they bought her silence.

[ShadowFacts]

Can someone help me out, I can't remember from a year and a half ago, did Jeff the cabbie drive Gene from the hospital to his home, and Gene was freaking out so he got out before reaching his place? In other words, not back to his car at the mall? If so, did Jeff just happen to see him at Cinnabon quite soon after the hospital incident?

As to the widow and workers being paid off and sent on their way, it's way too many loose ends for Gus Fring to be able to tolerate and thus doesn't work well for me. Any one of them can become disgruntled or just drunk and cause huge problems.

 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I would think one or more of the Germans might snitch out of loyalty to Werner.  I don't think anyone except maybe Mrs. Werner would have had any idea where the German workers had gone.  I think Mike and Fring could have trusted the hole in the desert or under the lab they left them in a lot more than they could trust the Germans to keep quiet.  

 

Personally, I'd be surprised if these guys were so very loyal to this one guy, especially given the kind of job they agreed to take. But disappearing a whole pack of German engineers together seems like just asking for trouble. There would be a lot of people in Germany with no idea where a lot of people had gone, except that they had a job in the US. If he hadn't planned beforehand to murder them all, I totally accept he'd decided to simply hire people with a demand for secrecy upfront.

 

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I would think one or more of the Germans might snitch out of loyalty to Werner.  I don't think anyone except maybe Mrs. Werner would have had any idea where the German workers had gone.  I think Mike and Fring could have trusted the hole in the desert or under the lab they left them in a lot more than they could trust the Germans to keep quiet.  

 Plus, they could have done it anonymously.  The knew Mike's last name and I would bet chatty Werner probably let Fring's name slip to his men over beers in the compound, at least once.  

The APD would recognize Mike's name from the Tuco Salamanca assault case and the Philadelphia PD investigation and all kinds of red flags would have been raised.   

Honestly, they probably would have sent Mrs. Werner to Belize instead of letting her go back to Germany.  Werner suddenly dying in a "construction accident" after missing their rendezvous at the spa, and ordering her so abruptly and angrily to go back to the airport would have made her very suspicious. 

IMO, there were a bunch of plot holes bigger than the hole under the laundry in that story line.  

 

Again, you are assuming Werner's wife left for the States without telling anybody in Germany what she knew or suspected. Gus can't make that assumption.

Disappearing people without raising suspicions, and triggering investigations, is really hard.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bannon

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

i'm not sure Kim was actually helping her client. I think a considerable prison sentence would have actually taught him something. The way it played out, he'll think he beat the system by sweet-talking his lawyer into something she was reluctant to do.

If any of their scams was done for a "good" reason, I'd say it was the one with Huell. Huell never should have been facing prison time for assault on a police officer, when he had no idea that the guy was a cop.

Re: Werner's wife - I think the idea was that she knew foul play was involved in her husband's death, but they bought her silence.

Given the conditions within American prisons, I think it is highly questionable that a long period of confinement within one will be a net positive for any person.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

i'm not sure Kim was actually helping her client. I think a considerable prison sentence would have actually taught him something. The way it played out, he'll think he beat the system by sweet-talking his lawyer into something she was reluctant to do.

 

 

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Given the conditions within American prisons, I think it is highly questionable that a long period of confinement within one will be a net positive for any person.

Yes, it seems like statistically it would be more likely to just make sure he stayed a criminal if he survived it. I think he'd have a much better chance if he could grow up mostly outside prison.

[scenario]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, you are assuming Werner's wife left for the States without telling anybody in Germany what she knew or suspected. Gus can't make that assumption.

Disappearing people without raising suspicions, and triggering investigations, is really hard.

One person dying in an accident is explainable. But then a whole bunch of related people disappearing a few weeks later is raising a big red flag. Werner's wife got a big payout, probably under the table. Her husband did this sort of thing before. She knew the type people her husband worked for. Telling someone is high risk, low reward and likely to get her killed. If half her husbands income was under the table for the last 20 years, she could lose everything. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

i'm not sure Kim was actually helping her client. I think a considerable prison sentence would have actually taught him something. The way it played out, he'll think he beat the system by sweet-talking his lawyer into something she was reluctant to do.

If any of their scams was done for a "good" reason, I'd say it was the one with Huell. Huell never should have been facing prison time for assault on a police officer, when he had no idea that the guy was a cop.

Re: Werner's wife - I think the idea was that she knew foul play was involved in her husband's death, but they bought her silence.

I am sure Kim believed she was acting in her client's best interest.  But, that is not her call and she had no right to deceive him.  She strongly advised him to take the deal, and he made an informed decision to refuse it and roll the dice.  

I think Kim did you Huell scam, mostly because she thought the ADA was being unreasonable and demanding way too much prison time.  But, I also think she took it personally that the ADA hated Jimmy and she also enjoyed the scam.  

I got zero vibes that Kim scammed her client for the thrill of it.  She regretted it right away.   

I think this is an example of when following your own morals instead of ethics can get you in trouble.