S15.E09 The Trap

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing that made the least sense to me was why Eileen digging around in Sam's wound didn't affect Chuck in the slightest. On at least two prior occasions we're shown the connection between them, but her literally trying to dig it out of him didn't even phase Chuck? I thought that was the reason for his hesitation to do it himself, but nope.... nada.

And having Eileen do it with the exposition that Chuck really likes to watch: the definition of torture porn.

IKR?!

And YU-UCK!!

 

[Bali]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing that made the least sense to me was why Eileen digging around in Sam's wound didn't affect Chuck in the slightest. On at least two prior occasions we're shown the connection between them, but her literally trying to dig it out of him didn't even phase Chuck? I thought that was the reason for his hesitation to do it himself, but nope.... nada.

And having Eileen do it with the exposition that Chuck really likes to watch: the definition of torture porn.

Thank you! This bothered me also. I just forgot about it in my other :this doesn't make sense" rant. Sam's being tortured, and Chuck is just playing the guitar. Laid back and relaxed. Complete opposite of the new water pistol that was shoved down our throats in previous episodes. And chuck is powerless because Sam has hope? Huh? Did I get that right? Run that by me again? Human hope makes God powerless? I don't understand that- at all. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Bali said:

And chuck is powerless because Sam has hope? Huh? Did I get that right? Run that by me again? Human hope makes God powerless? I don't understand that- at all. 

And Chuck exposited (is too a word) this to Sam as well, in true comic book villain style. Thing is, he tried to dash that hope by mocking Sam's belief that Dean and Cas would come running to the rescue with a plan to defeat him, and how that wasn't gonna happen. And then it did happen, and Sam still gave up hope and acquiesced to Chuck's future info-dump. Oy.

[Nerys]

1 hour ago, Bali said:

Water pistols for why locking up Amara is okay, locking up Chuck is bad. Yes- I'm calling it water pistols. Chuck's rules? Palease. If darkness is locked away, monsters should be gone. 

No, because she didn't create them.

[bettername2come]

Dean. I loved Dean's prayer to Castiel. He called him his best friend, he was open and honest in a way he couldn't/wouldn't have been to his face, and he was still going to say it to Cas's face if he hadn't heard it. Also, even when Sam makes a decision he can't understand, he believes in his brother. Beautiful. And he stepped to God and punched him in the face and towered over him in all his tall, powerful beauty. Yes. 

Sam. Believes in his brother. The brother who raised him (I'm not crying). Stands up well to torture because "it's not my first time on the rack." Kisses Eileen. Had hope in his family's ability to do better than the possibilities he's seen.

I liked the twist that those visions were memories, rather than drafts. It made sense. And it made sense that Chuck had manipulated things so that Eileen would come back to life and be his eyes in the bunker. Her return's a little contrived and Chuck's probably a shipper. And glad to see Jack coming back. The man deserves a paycheck.

[SueB]

Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.  

From 14.18

Quote

 

“Castiel: I was scared. I believed in Jack for so long, I... I believed that he was -- he was good. I -- I knew that he would be good for the world. And he was good for us. My faith in him, it -- it never wavered, and then I-I saw what he did. It wasn't malice. It wasn't evil. It was like Jack saw a problem, and in his mind, he just solved it with that snake.

Dean: The snake?!
Castiel: What he did wasn't bad. It was the absence of good. And I saw that in him. But we were a family, and I didn't want to lose that, so I thought I could... fix it on my own. Felt like it was my responsibility. So I left. And I didn't tell you. If I could go back and just -- just talk to him right then and there, I would. But I can't, Dean. I failed you. And I failed Jack. And I failed --

Dean: No, no. Don't even say it. Don't even say her name.”

 

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Quote

 

Dean [to Cas]: You okay?

Cas: Yes, but...

Dean: Good.

[Dean turns and walks away]

Belphegor: Wow! Awkward. Wanna talk about it or... ? [Cas walks away] Is that a no? That's a no.

 

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.  

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me.  Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to "I'm sorry".  

Edited January 17, 2020 by SueB

[SueB]

 

It's entirely possible the "hissing" was a J2 acting 'choice'.  I'm perfectly fine with it.  I know it was a serious scene but I'm willing to cut them a little slack after 15 years.  It didn't ruin the scene/episode for me. 

[Casseiopeia]

I don't even know where the ratings thread is but for anyone who cares...

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.  

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.  

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me.  Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to "I'm sorry".  

IMO, 'I failed you' is a non apology. Sure, Cas admitted his failure,yet he never said he was sorry for betraying Dean.He never said he was sorry for hurting Dean. Dean actually has said the words "I'm sorry " several times in the past. 

The difference is this time Dean reached his limit when it came to Mary. Dean was mean, yet he never told Cas to leave. Instead of Cas standing up for himself at that moment he pouted and left. So to me, Dean is being way magnanimous about Cas, because he's family. Cas left on his own. And he could have come back on his own and I highly doubt Dean would have refused him to come home.

 

 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

 

It's entirely possible the "hissing" was a J2 acting 'choice'.  I'm perfectly fine with it.  I know it was a serious scene but I'm willing to cut them a little slack after 15 years.  It didn't ruin the scene/episode for me. 

Also: 

Bobo Bernens‏ @robertberens 13h13 hours ago

Chuck playing guitar while Eileen slices Sam was a Bob Singer/@RobBenedict idea. I love the contrast of the guitar playing and the bloody flesh squishing in the mix.

 

 

[catrox14]

I like to think J2 decided to camp it up because they thought it was ridiculous.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I like to think J2 decided to camp it up because they thought it was ridiculous.

Maybe they went full-on fan-fiction and decided they were werecats.

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Also: 

Bobo Bernens‏ @robertberens 13h13 hours ago

Chuck playing guitar while Eileen slices Sam was a Bob Singer/@RobBenedict idea. I love the contrast of the guitar playing and the bloody flesh squishing in the mix.

This? Kind of gross. Too bad they didn't put as much thought into the actual writing, whereby the torture should have been affecting Chuck as well as Sam.

Edited January 17, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
to add the quote

[BabySpinach]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.  

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.  

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me.  Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to "I'm sorry".  

Even if Cas had properly apologized, which I could see myself agreeing with, that doesn't excuse him acting like Dean owed him forgiveness and basically being a catty little bitch until he finally did. Not to mention how he wouldn't STFU about Jack, the soulless psychopath who murdered Mary (whom he sided with).

Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that?

Dean had no obligation to stop being angry, and Cas should have been grown-up enough to let him be (or leave without blaming Dean for "letting him go.")

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that?

Exactly.

Cas's apology was weak sauce, but as you said, regardless, he absolutely refused to give Dean enough breathing room to process it all (it was days in show-time). And then at the same time, to consistently bemoan his own loss in Dean's face, was inconsiderate at the least. If he was actually sorry, he would have sucked it up and stayed around to help (or at least answered his BFF Sam's texts). Nope, no quarter from me.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

Even if Cas had properly apologized, which I could see myself agreeing with, that doesn't excuse him acting like Dean owed him forgiveness and basically being a catty little bitch until he finally did. Not to mention how he wouldn't STFU about Jack, the soulless psychopath who murdered Mary (whom he sided with).

Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that?

Dean had no obligation to stop being angry, and Cas should have been grown-up enough to let him be (or leave without blaming Dean for "letting him go.")

This so much.

I'm as over Cas as I'm over all the rest of Dean's supposedly "loving" family who do the exact same thing to him every time he's not there for them on their timetable, no matter what happens.

And I mute/block/ignore anyone who calls this "character growth/development" for the character-because it's not-not in the least, IMO.

In fact, every time he does that it is, in truth, just keeping the status quo and, again IMO, it is the greatest tragedy of his life that Dean's "loving" family uses his great love for them against him time and time again in this way, just to attain what they want/need from him.

And what's the worst is that I think the writers of this show really think that Dean is the only one who ever needs to apologize in situations like this and it has become rote within the storyboard that Dean is going to be made to look "wrong"(and as if there's something "wrong" with him on basic level-as he even stated in this most recent apology)when his thoughts, feelings, and emotions are not in perfect sync with how his "loved ones" want them to be.

It's  awful and quite the way to ruin a character for me on this show-which they've now done with Cas, in spades.

And I used to love their relationship.

That's what really sucks.

Oh, and if it's important enough that Dean be made to use the words "I'm sorry" in an apology, then it should be important enough for him to hear them, too. And when he's ready to hear them- not just when the person who hurt him is ready to say them.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[Bergamot]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.  

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.  

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me.  Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to "I'm sorry".  

Even if Cas had properly apologized, which I could see myself agreeing with, that doesn't excuse him acting like Dean owed him forgiveness and basically being a catty little bitch until he finally did. Not to mention how he wouldn't STFU about Jack, the soulless psychopath who murdered Mary (whom he sided with).

Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that?

Dean had no obligation to stop being angry, and Cas should have been grown-up enough to let him be (or leave without blaming Dean for "letting him go.")

Yes, exactly. The problem was never about whether or not Castiel apologized.

Here is that conversation between Dean and Castiel in this episode, where Castiel is talking about guilt:

Castiel: It was my fault the Leviathan got out. It was my fault we were here the first time.I carry that guilt every day.
Dean: I know you're sorry, Cas. About Bel, about Mom.
Castiel: I was talking about Jack. I already apologized to you. You just refused to hear it.
Dean: Sorry I brought it up. Maybe if you didn't just up and leave us...
Castiel: You didn't give me a choice. You couldn't forgive me. And you couldn't move on. You were too angry. I left, but you didn't stop me.

Okay, first of all -- "I was talking about Jack"? No you weren't. You were talking about the Leviathan and how they ended up in Purgatory the first time.

Second, "I already apologized to you"? I hated his nasty, snippy tone here. What do you want, Castiel, a gold medal for apologizing? And Dean did hear you -- he just said he knew you were sorry.

Third, "You wouldn't move on"? You don't get to decide when that must happen, Castiel. You don't get to tell someone that you have injured, "Okay, time's up, you have to be over it now."

I hated Dean putting himself down because he gets angry when bad things happen. You are allowed to feel what you feel, Dean. You are not always required to repress your emotions because someone who hurt you has decided that you need to "move on".

Castiel is, and has been for a while now, a grade-A, pompous, self-righteous asshole. And if the people who make the show think he was in the right here, then I really have to wonder what kind of people they are themselves.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Castiel is, and has been for a while now, a grade-A, pompous, self-righteous asshole. And if the people who make the show think he was in the right here, then I really have to wonder what kind of people they are themselves.

I don't think you have to wonder at all. I know I don't.

[Bergamot]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It's  awful and quite the way to ruin a character for me on this show-which they've now done with Cas, in spades.

And I used to love their relationship.

That's what really sucks.

Yes, I feel the same. It really is a shame. Every change that Dabb has made to the show has been for the worse. He has brought nothing good to it.

I was never a shipper, but I used to love the friendship between Dean and Cas.

Here's the way I have decided to view it, just for my own private head-canon. Cas is the character who was Dean's friend. Castiel is the character who came back from the Empty, and he is an entirely different person. He looks and sounds like Cas, but it isn't him.

Here is an example of a scene with Cas, who was Dean's friend:

Supernatural - The Things We Left Behind (Sneak Peek)

The contrast between the "Cas" in this scene, and the "Castiel" in the episode last night, is why I don't think of them as the same person. Whatever it was that Jack brought back from the Empty is somebody else.

 

[PAForrest]

15 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that?

Dean had no obligation to stop being angry, and Cas should have been grown-up enough to let him be (or leave without blaming Dean for "letting him go.")

I agree with you and everyone else who have pointed out how Castiel's weak shit apologies in this scenario were chock full of "but"s and qualifiers from the jump, and so completely devoid of understanding or compassion for the pain his supposed friend was in given the murder of his mother, that they are rendered moot. And that's especially baffling given that Cas very much bears some fault for the heinous act that was the slaughtering of Mary Winchester.

But he never owned up to his part in this person's death - and worse was never expected to, not by the writing, by the other characters, and certainly not by his fans.  His biggest concern was always for Jack, the person who did the slaughtering, and never Dean or Mary.

Of course Dean was always expectd to be the one person, the one and only man in this one-sided not-so-much relationship, that was going to have to apologize for no other reason than being human and having real emotions a normal person would have. And putting aside the writer's intentions, probably the biggest reason Dean is always the one who is forced to give these speeches is because Jensen is pretty much the only actor who can. And he nails it every single time, even now when the writing is entirely one-dimensional, sans anything remotely resembling shades or layers.

Metatron was right about our resident angel - he's Asstiel. And that's sad to me because at one time I really liked the character, and I liked when he and Dean had a real relationship that was give and take on both sides. But that died a few years ago, and now it's reduced to one giving guy giving it his all, and the other guy taking and mostly not caring. I hate that.

[BabySpinach]

15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, exactly. The problem was never about whether or not Castiel apologized.

Here is that conversation between Dean and Castiel in this episode, where Castiel is talking about guilt:

Castiel: It was my fault the Leviathan got out. It was my fault we were here the first time.I carry that guilt every day.
Dean: I know you're sorry, Cas. About Bel, about Mom.
Castiel: I was talking about Jack. I already apologized to you. You just refused to hear it.
Dean: Sorry I brought it up. Maybe if you didn't just up and leave us...
Castiel: You didn't give me a choice. You couldn't forgive me. And you couldn't move on. You were too angry. I left, but you didn't stop me.

Okay, first of all -- "I was talking about Jack"? No you weren't. You were talking about the Leviathan and how they ended up in Purgatory the first time.

Second, "I already apologized to you"? I hated his nasty, snippy tone here. What do you want, Castiel, a gold medal for apologizing? And Dean did hear you -- he just said he knew you were sorry.

Third, "You wouldn't move on"? You don't get to decide when that must happen, Castiel. You don't get to tell someone that you have injured, "Okay, time's up, you have to be over it now."

I hated Dean putting himself down because he gets angry when bad things happen. You are allowed to feel what you feel, Dean. You are not always required to repress your emotions because someone who hurt you has decided that you need to "move on".

Castiel is, and has been for a while now, a grade-A, pompous, self-righteous asshole. And if the people who make the show think he was in the right here, then I really have to wonder what kind of people they are themselves.

 

Just seeing that scene transcribed is pissing me off all over again, lol. What. An. Asshole.

"I already apologized to you." O...kay? Good for you? You're clearly really broken up about it, huh? You and Dean should automatically be sunshine and rainbows again just because you said, "my bad," right?

Let me just reiterate: Cas shielded Murderous Nougat Boy, opposed the Winchesters' attempt to lock him up, heaped all responsibility for his heinous acts onto Duma's barely-there "manipulations," grieved more for Mary's murderer than Mary herself.

Dean's big crime, meanwhile, was getting angry over it. That's it. Yet who gets the big, weepy apology conveniently absolving the other of all wrongdoing? Yup...

This was scarily like the infamous Fallen Idols.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I feel the same. It really is a shame. Every change that Dabb has made to the show has been for the worse. He has brought nothing good to it.

I was never a shipper, but I used to love the friendship between Dean and Cas.

Here's the way I have decided to view it, just for my own private head-canon. Cas is the character who was Dean's friend. Castiel is the character who came back from the Empty, and he is an entirely different person. He looks and sounds like Cas, but it isn't him.

Here is an example of a scene with Cas, who was Dean's friend:

Supernatural - The Things We Left Behind (Sneak Peek)

The contrast between the "Cas" in this scene, and the "Castiel" in the episode last night, is why I don't think of them as the same person. Whatever it was that Jack brought back from the Empty is somebody else.

 

Head-canon accepted.

Brilliant, btw.

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, exactly. The problem was never about whether or not Castiel apologized.

Here is that conversation between Dean and Castiel in this episode, where Castiel is talking about guilt:

Castiel: It was my fault the Leviathan got out. It was my fault we were here the first time.I carry that guilt every day.
Dean: I know you're sorry, Cas. About Bel, about Mom.
Castiel: I was talking about Jack. I already apologized to you. You just refused to hear it.
Dean: Sorry I brought it up. Maybe if you didn't just up and leave us...
Castiel: You didn't give me a choice. You couldn't forgive me. And you couldn't move on. You were too angry. I left, but you didn't stop me.

Okay, first of all -- "I was talking about Jack"? No you weren't. You were talking about the Leviathan and how they ended up in Purgatory the first time.

Second, "I already apologized to you"? I hated his nasty, snippy tone here. What do you want, Castiel, a gold medal for apologizing? And Dean did hear you -- he just said he knew you were sorry.

Third, "You wouldn't move on"? You don't get to decide when that must happen, Castiel. You don't get to tell someone that you have injured, "Okay, time's up, you have to be over it now."

I hated Dean putting himself down because he gets angry when bad things happen. You are allowed to feel what you feel, Dean. You are not always required to repress your emotions because someone who hurt you has decided that you need to "move on".

Castiel is, and has been for a while now, a grade-A, pompous, self-righteous asshole. And if the people who make the show think he was in the right here, then I really have to wonder what kind of people they are themselves.

 

Again, the real tragedy of Dean's life is that doing what he did in this episode and getting little in return from the other party, and thinking of just his own thoughts, feelings and emotions as being "wrong" is likely one of the biggest reasons that he feels that immense anger inside that he can't seem to control. 

His life is a vicious cycle of this kind of shit, so "character DEVELOPMENT?!"-hardly-unless of course he prostrating himself, yet again, before your favorite.

And the writers will never admit this or explore because they're too simple- minded to see it.

So yeah, SO! glad that Dean(and those of us who love him and have seen it for years now)will finally be free of it after this season.

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

And that's especially baffling given that Cas very much bears some fault for the heinous act that was the slaughtering of Mary Winchester.

But he never owned up to his part in this person's death - and worse was never expected to, not by the writing, by the other characters, and certainly not by his fans.  His biggest concern was always for Jack, the person who did the slaughtering, and never Dean or Mary.

THIS is owning up. This is showing regret:

1 hour ago, SueB said:

And I didn't tell you. If I could go back and just -- just talk to him right then and there, I would. But I can't, Dean. I failed you. And I failed Jack. And I failed --

Dean: No, no. Don't even say it. Don't even say her name.”

Regardless, if you don't accept Cas' apology, don't like how he apologized, feel he pushed Dean too quickly to accept his apology then that's your business. 

I don't have disagreement with people having different opinions.  I do have issues with people making up their own facts. 

My argument was with the retcon some have suggested that Cas never apologized.  He did. It may not be to your liking, but he apologized.  Sincerely.  

And Dean forgave him.  Seems pretty straightforward to me. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

I liked it better than Berens other episode this Season but that wasn`t exactly a high bar to clear. 

Dean having to over-the-top apologize to poor little victimized Cas was...well...completely over the top. Berens pulled out the world`s tiniest violin for Cas. It was well-acted but come on. 

Giving Benny a cruel offscreen death was just mean-spirited. Guess he is now chilling in the Empty. 

Other than that the Purgatory story didn`t amount to much, as expected. I did like that moment where they lured Leviathan dude. That is how you play smart Dean, obviously pretending to be clueless and incompetent to then turn it around. Just a little thing but I`ll take it.

So this is "the future"? This milquetoast monster-ville where the brothers become overly hissy werecats? And in this one instance we are supposed to believe it was the truth from Mr. "Writers lie" Chuck? All so Sam could look good (and was supported on the spot) for packing it in.  

That final cut to Jackie-poo was just eye-roll-worthy bad. Telegraph it harder that you need a new benevolent God and who it`s gonna be. 

Called it that the link was gonna be severed here. Since they made the connection of it and Chuck being weak and Dabb spoiled a fully powered Chuck months ago, it was obvious. He even spoiled it again in the interviews for this episode. 

At least some of the clips from the Drowning clip that I liked the least were in this one in the future context.

The scene with Sam/Eileen either was gonna be "the one that got away" or it truly does point to a Saileen endgame in the Finale. The strings were going overboard here.

Favourite scene? Dean punching Chuck and getting in his face. That was badass. 

 

[PAForrest]

16 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Here's the way I have decided to view it, just for my own private head-canon. Cas is the character who was Dean's friend. Castiel is the character who came back from the Empty, and he is an entirely different person. He looks and sounds like Cas, but it isn't him.

Here is an example of a scene with Cas, who was Dean's friend:

Supernatural - The Things We Left Behind (Sneak Peek)

The contrast between the "Cas" in this scene, and the "Castiel" in the episode last night, is why I don't think of them as the same person. Whatever it was that Jack brought back from the Empty is somebody else.

When he first came back from the Empty, there was an expectation that it might not really be Castiel. Of course, that went nowhere, per usual, and he just further deteriorated into being a complete ass, and that was that.

But if we had real writers with any kind of vision, it would have made so much sense that the real Castiel was dead and what came back was something different. Still sad to lose the friendship Dean and Cas used to have, and certainly still don't, but a storyline with some kind of possibility.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Oh wow, Cas was predictably insufferable in this ep. I just LOVED how he treated Dean like a dumb, misbehaving child and was always framed in the right. No matter what, he's just a woobie sweetheart bullied incessantly by big mean Dean, whose constant screw-ups are never as bad as whatever unpretty emotion Dean is feeling as a response to those screw-ups.

And FUCK him for demanding forgiveness, and apparently giving no fucks about Mary in comparison to her literal murderer. What a petty, self-centered, entitled bitch. But hey, at least all the Destiellers got to cream themselves over what they've always wanted to see: Dean literally on his knees, crying and grovelling to Cas. No matter how good Jensen's acting, it made me want to hurl. Somehow CAS became the wronged party in all this, and he was never forced to grovel like that in regards to Mary and Jack.

The rest of it was pretty damn boring. Vampire Winchesters were so fucking cringey, though. Poor Jensen.

One bright spot was Dean punching God. Another was Dean "Free Will" Winchester shit-talking him to his face. 

BOOO! to Jack returning. I can't think of another character I want to see less. His absence had been one of the few positives of this season, and now it won't even have that going for it.

In these last days, I am trying with all my might to focus on Jensen's acting because I know that the writing is just never going to give Dean the character exploration or attention that I think Jensen's portrayal has earned for him.

I think that's pretty plain(for me)to see at this point.

So Jensen Ackles, and no one or nothing else, made this horribly written episode watchable for me yet again.

And that's all I feel that I,  personally, can hope for now and heading towards the finish line.

That said, I think this post speaks very well to how a lot of Deanfans that I know and respect presently feel also.

Writing-wise, I totally expected everything that happened in this one, except Dean being allowed to confront Chuck as he did, but even that was far more about the Ackting than what was written on the page.

As usual.

 

[7kstar]

4 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Oh yeah and I have to add. The vampire scene with Jensen bearing his teeth was straight up laughable. How embarrassing. The show used to be scary. 

Sometimes less is more.  Everything they did in that scene between the brothers was more comic than shocking. 

[Myrelle]

55 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Just seeing that scene transcribed is pissing me off all over again, lol. What. An. Asshole.

"I already apologized to you." O...kay? Good for you? You're clearly really broken up about it, huh? You and Dean should automatically be sunshine and rainbows again just because you said, "my bad," right?

Let me just reiterate: Cas shielded Murderous Nougat Boy, opposed the Winchesters' attempt to lock him up, heaped all responsibility for his heinous acts onto Duma's barely-there "manipulations," grieved more for Mary's murderer than Mary herself.

Dean's big crime, meanwhile, was getting angry over it. That's it. Yet who gets the big, weepy apology conveniently absolving the other of all wrongdoing? Yup...

This was scarily like the infamous Fallen Idols.

It most certainly was, IMO too.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Sometimes less is more.  Everything they did in that scene between the brothers was more comic than shocking. 

I actually did laugh during that scene. Mostly because of the way Dean bared his teeth. I almost think he was putting on a mocking performance on purpose because he thought the material was so bad.

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I liked the twist that those visions were memories, rather than drafts. It made sense. And it made sense that Chuck had manipulated things so that Eileen would come back to life and be his eyes in the bunker. Her return's a little contrived and Chuck's probably a shipper. And glad to see Jack coming back. The man deserves a paycheck.

I agree, since we learned about AUs already. I loved Dean's prayer to Cas, too, and his acceptance of Sam's decision at the end without arguing. I'm sure Jack's appearance at the end means they're going to put a new "God" in Chuck's place now they've learned killing him or trapping him won't work.

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Castiel: What he did wasn't bad. It was the absence of good. And I saw that in him. But we were a family, and I didn't want to lose that, so I thought I could... fix it on my own. Felt like it was my responsibility. So I left. And I didn't tell you. If I could go back and just -- just talk to him right then and there, I would. But I can't, Dean. I failed you. And I failed Jack. And I failed --

Dean: No, no. Don't even say it. Don't even say her name.”

What you have is justification for his actions.  Sure he said the words I failed you but the line before that is if I can just talk to Jack I can fix it.  It's adding justification to his actions.  Actions that got Dean's Mom killed.  But it is par for the course in this show.  Cas gets to say I'm not totally wrong  but when you really hurt someone that is not a true apology.  They'll never write it so that is the best you can expect.

So Sue we can disagree and not see eye to eye on this, but I'm tired of Dean having to be told he's stupid and how he must fix his feelings for everyone else.

This ep really made me mad at the writing.  I found many parts just badly done.

The apology is manipulative  and that negates the apology.  JMV.... but as someone that has dealt with abuse this is their calling card.  It sounds like it should be enough but it hurts more and does more harm instead.  How about Cas trying to help Dean with his anger instead of turning and running away.

I know once I was given a heartfelt apology, but I was just so angry due to the years of abuse that it felt too little too late.  I did finally say, you can't do anything...now it's on me to find the way to forgive. 

But who do I really blame, the bad writing.

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

THIS is owning up. This is showing regret:

Regardless, if you don't accept Cas' apology, don't like how he apologized, feel he pushed Dean too quickly to accept his apology then that's your business. 

I don't have disagreement with people having different opinions.  I do have issues with people making up their own facts. 

My argument was with the retcon some have suggested that Cas never apologized.  He did. It may not be to your liking, but he apologized.  Sincerely.  

And Dean forgave him.  Seems pretty straightforward to me. 

Yes Cas apologized both of them were hurt at various points and banging heads.  In the end they both apologized for the hurt on both sides.  Dean end ups stating the obvious--Cas is his best friend...it's stated clearly by Dean. 

[OrigamiNightmare]

6 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

Unpopular opinion, but I loved it.  I love most episodes of this show.  Too bad to see it go but they had a good run.

I'm wondering how their victory against God would lead to the bleakness they witnessed and monsters overrunning humanity.  Was God keeping the monsters in check?

It's about time they followed up on Jack's fate at the end of last season.  Maybe he'll become the new God?

If they make Jack the new God I will scream. Why can't wonderboy just stay dead.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

In these last days, I am trying with all my might to focus on Jensen's acting because I know that the writing is just never going to give Dean the character exploration or attention that I think Jensen's portrayal has earned for him.

I think that's pretty plain(for me)to see at this point.

So Jensen Ackles, and no one or nothing else, made this horribly written episode watchable for me yet again.

And if you focus mostly on Jensen, he was excellent in this episode - certainly better than the writing deserved, which is par for the course. I didn't dislike the brother moments either - loved the whole "Dean raised me" line. Thank you, it's about time! I didn't have any real problem with Jared's acting the way some folks did, especially in comparison to Asstiel walking around with a stick up his butt the entire time, even after Dean apologized.

I also don't understand why Asstiel didn't go looking for Dean after supposedly being an off-screen badass. Was he really going to be that pissy that he'd trap them there forever if Dean didn't go looking for him? Seriously dude? Yeah, the Leviathans are after you - they're after Dean too. You still had to get out of there WITH Dean. Way not to be badass at all.

Benny deserved a whole lot better than an off screen death. Waaaaaaaaah!!!!! I knew Ty wasn't going to be available for this episode, but Berens did him wrong regardless. Boo.

I don't understand at all why Sam or anyone is supposed to believe what Chuckles showed Sam was definitive given the fact that Chuckles was rewriting what the hell ever just a few weeks ago at Becky's.  Sam should have known that nothing he saw was written in stone - or even on paper.

The one personal note of squee I got out of Chuckles' time trip was the fact that this particular Dean and Sam storyline ended on my birthday. LOL! Rob, of course, is playing this thankless role to the hilt, and I applaud his ability to make Chuckles watchable from appearance to appearance despite the character trashing.

When Sam kissed Eileen at the end, it was literally the first time I detected a spark of chemistry between them. Is she supposed to come back?

Of course, now that Jackie Poo Sue is returning, I guess the brothers can just go to Tijuana or some place to hang. Obviously they won't really be needed anymore.

And I totally think the Js simply could not take the whole brothers as werewolves thing seriously at all. You can't blame them.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

And I totally think the Js simply could not take the whole brothers as werewolves thing seriously at all. You can't blame them.

I'd hope hard that someone will ask them about this scene at the next con, but given that it's a couple months away, I'm 100% certain there will be something even more bizarre to ask about by then.

 

8 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I didn't have any real problem with Jared's acting the way some folks did,

For what it's worth, I thought he was okay with the suffering and the angst, it's this bizarre way of stammering his lines when they are supposed to be emotional that I find so distracting. He didn't used to speak that way.

[bettername2come]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd hope hard that someone will ask them about this scene at the next con, but given that it's a couple months away, I'm 100% certain there will be something even more bizarre to ask about by then.

*makes note to ask at Charlotte con this fall for gonzosgirrl just in case.*

[Aeryn13]

45 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

If they make Jack the new God I will scream. Why can't wonderboy just stay dead.

Well, the episode was not in any way, shape or form subtle.

Step A - exposition on how you need God to keep the "darkness", in this case, dark forces of nature aka monsters, at bay

Step B - onscreen ask the question that since they can neither kill nor trap/seal away Chuck, however are they going to win?

Step C - immediately after this question cut to the Nougat Baby for the first time this Season and Death remarking on his grand new mission

IMO it would have literally been impossible for the episode to be more on the nose about it.

[Bobcatkitten]

I've seen different thoughts - were Sam and Dean supposed to be vampires or werewolves? 

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I've seen different thoughts - were Sam and Dean supposed to be vampires or werewolves? 

Werecats. I'm sure of it.

Now, who's the alpha and who's the omega?

I'll show myself out...

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I've seen different thoughts - were Sam and Dean supposed to be vampires or werewolves? 

Real answer, I think they were supposed to be vamps. Reason being, in the timeline of Chuck's story, Claire was killed by vamps and I *think* Sam's need for that hunt was revenge-fueled, and why Dean went along against his better judgement. My assumption is that they were overwhelmed (as were Jody and Claire) and got turned. I imagine it would be a 'get' for a vamp colony, to turn the Winchesters. Also, the bullet slowed Sam down (maybe filled with dead man's blood, like the witch-killing bullets are filled with ____?) but it was beheading that killed him.

ETA: yet another reason why it really didn't make sense for Sam to believe in this version of the future. There's no way Dean & Sam would choose to go on as vamps (or werewolves, or werecats). They would *ask* Bobby and Jody to take them out, or do it themselves. That whole 'bring it' nonsense was pure Chuckles fantasy writing. Urgh.

Edited January 17, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[FlickChick]

I felt that this was a very poorly conceived and written episode with characters not acting as they would normally just to service the script and LOL canon.

I have just a few thoughts on this one. First, Jensen Ackles deserves better writing, a better showrunner, and even better co-stars. Second, now I understand Jared's New Years resolution of giving 100% to Supernatural, because he isn't doing that now. Third, I absolutely hate what they have done to the character of Castiel. And fourth, the obvious benediction of NougatJack as the new God is truly obnoxious. He still has a minimum of 8 episodes to film and there's only 11 left. So strap yourself in for the NougatJack show - which apparently is the only one the writers are interested in. It all just breaks my heart.

Edited January 17, 2020 by FlickChick

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: yet another reason why it really didn't make sense for Sam to believe in this version of the future. There's no way Dean & Sam would choose to go on as vamps (or werewolves, or werecats). They would *ask* Bobby and Jody to take them out, or do it themselves. That whole 'bring it' nonsense was pure Chuckles fantasy writing. Urgh.

I like your werecats idea. Totes adorbs!

But, sure, I guess they were vamps, though I'm not sure Berens was entirely married to what monster they'd turned into. Either way, the guys thought it was silly and acted accordingly. LOL!

However, you're absolutely right about the fact that whatever they turned into, Dean and Sam would have immediately done everything they could to either cure themselves, and failing that, would have tried to kill themselves or gone to Jody and/or Bobby to have one of them do it for them. No way in hell would they have chosen to remain monsters nor fight against the hunters trying to end them. That is what should have tipped off Sam that nothing Chuckles showed him could be trusted. He knows himself and Dean too well to buy that scenario.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Metatron was right about our resident angel - he's Asstiel. And that's sad to me because at one time I really liked the character, and I liked when he and Dean had a real relationship that was give and take on both sides.

8 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I feel the same. It really is a shame. Every change that Dabb has made to the show has been for the worse.

Whereas I don't see this as that much of a change myself. For me, this has been a Castiel flaw from the beginning. Castiel saying "I failed you" earlier this season is in my opinion actually more than he has usually done, and this denial is more back to form.

I've generally not seen the Dean / Castiel relationship as more give and take on both sides. Castiel's behavior was more obvious with Sam early on, but nonetheless, it was there with Dean from the beginning.

I'll take the rest to all seasons, because it contains stuff from a few episodes and seasons outside of this one...

Edited to add: Taken to the Castiel thread, because I thought that it fit better there.

Edited January 18, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[trudysmom]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Berens is a cut-rate soap opera writer. 

That' giving  him too much praise.

10 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean literally on his knees, crying and grovelling to Cas. No matter how good Jensen's acting, it made me want to hurl.

I was screaming at the tv.  He was good, no doubt.  But it was, I don't know, unnecessary?  I just didn't feel the urgency of the situation they wanted me to feel.  That whole purgatory thing was just stupid in the extreme.  

Supernatural, why can't I quit you?

[BoxManLocke]

I've no idea how you people have the energy or motivation to argue about Dean and Castiel's umpteenth feud.

These things feel so awkward and contrived every single time. Their relationship hasn't evolved in like half a decade because the writers aren't interested in anything except temporarily stirring shit for cheap drama to try to make up for the absence of actual character arcs.

It always goes the same way : A lame character death, endless bickering, and one of them suddenly groveling because it's time to move the plot along. This time it fell on Dean.

And in the end nothing's changed. Dean is still the same guy, and Castiel goes back to being wallpaper, because outside of Dean drama, he's barely even a character at this point. There's nothing tangible to hold on to. Complete waste of time.

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is I'm glad we're done with it, it made both of them look like morons. And the writers really don't deserve people using their brain for this garbage.

Edited January 18, 2020 by BoxManLocke

[Harleycat]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Again, the real tragedy of Dean's life is that doing what he did in this episode and getting little in return from the other party, and thinking of just his own thoughts, feelings and emotions as being "wrong" is likely one of the biggest reasons that he feels that immense anger inside that he can't seem to control. 

His life is a vicious cycle of this kind of shit, so "character DEVELOPMENT?!"-hardly-unless of course he prostrating himself, yet again, before your favorite.

And the writers will never admit this or explore because they're too simple- minded to see it.

So yeah, SO! glad that Dean(and those of us who love him and have seen it for years now)will finally be free of it after this season.

Seriously, I don't remember Sam even thanking Dean for coming to save him, he just expects it all the time. I hate how they never let Sam learn how to take care of business himself. A middle aged man should not just be stumbling around to dangerous situation to dangerous situation just expecting that he will always have big brother come rescue him.

And Cas is as bad as Sam the last couple of seasons. He even talks like Sam, which is weird. What ever happened to Cas being an angel of few words? Old Cas would never have demanded an apology. He wouldn't have even mentioned that his feeling were hurt. It just wouldn't have been a thing. He has bigger things to worry about then Dean being mad at him.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Harleycat said:

Seriously, I don't remember Sam even thanking Dean for coming to save him, he just expects it all the time.

In "All Hell..., Pt 2" Sam pretty much said as much when he found out Dean made the deal. He didn't say the words "Thank you," but the meaning was obvious... which was actually pretty understanding of Sam in my opinion, considering.

Of course that was before Sam couldn't save Dean, and things went to crap for both of them.

And then "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning" was a big one, too.

That's off the top of my head, though I can't imagine that Sam hasn't thanked Dean on other lesser occasions, too. I seem to remember scenes to this affect in my head, but can't recall exactly where.

[Harleycat]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In "All Hell..., Pt 2" Sam pretty much said as much when he found out Dean made the deal. He didn't say the words "Thank you," but the meaning was obvious... which was actually pretty understanding of Sam in my opinion, considering.

Of course that was before Sam couldn't save Dean, and things went to crap for both of them.

And then "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning" was a big one, too.

That's off the top of my head, though I can't imagine that Sam hasn't thanked Dean on other lesser occasions, too. I seem to remember scenes to this affect in my head, but can't recall exactly where.

Lol. I meant in this episode, not all of life. Although the fact that all you can recall are these instances says a lot.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Harleycat said:

Lol. I meant in this episode, not all of life. Although the fact that all you can recall are these instances says a lot.

Sorry, I misread your "even" as "ever" - hence the memory lane.

As to the second: Heh. I know this show, but there are over 300 episodes. I know these scenes because they are some of my favorites, but I ain't no spring chicken, so I can't always remember which episode is which. As I said, I'm pretty sure Sam has thanked Dean for coming to the rescue on more regular cases before.

Besides in this episode, Dean was pretty much on a punch Chuck and chew him out mission. I'm sure Sam didn't want to take his thunder or mushy up the vibe with a Chick Flick moment.

[NougatJack]

I liked this episode, for me it‘s the best episode this season so far. I wish there have been even more scenes from the future. Don‘t know if it would happen that way if they would trap Chuck or if Chuck lied about that. Chuck tends to lie so often recently, Sam knows that too, but he couldn‘t risk those visions becoming real. Maybe Chuck told the truth this time, who knows? The idea, Cas going insane while being in the Malak Box, that is disturbing.

But does anybody know why Dean didn‘t smash that orb thing in front of Chuck himself, but throws it to Sam instead?

And hey, hello Jack, good to see you again!