Season 5 Discussion...

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

I didn't care for daniel wagging his finger at leonard about the whole thing.

I get where Daniel was coming from, but he was awfully pushy. I think Leonard will get to a place where he can eventually forgive—or at least not despise—his father, but it's not going to be after one visit. 

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

11 hours ago, nara said:

I liked that Geordie is finally over his midlife crisis and is a good husband.

Goodness me too.  I actually think Cathy having a job has been good for their marriage.  She looks happier and sexier.  Even though Geordie probably thought a housewife was he'd prefer, I think he's also responding to her self-sufficiency. 

Cathy's a lot more confident, too, and I'm sure that's helping the marriage. I loved it when Geordie came home to Cathy having a nice cuppa outside while the kids were screaming indoors.

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

I saw this as a positive experience for Will and he was clearly in a better place emotionally because of it.

Marvin Gaye knew what he was singing about in "Sexual Healing." Hee. I laughed out loud when Geordie said to Will, "You've had sex!" and Will had a cat-with-the-canary look on his face.

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am sure there will be other crisis in the future but this season has given me hope that we are done with the general malaise of the Sidney years.

I'm glad we're moving away from that. Four seasons of it was a lot. Sidney was just too tortured for me, and it was aggravating when a lot of it—like his pining for Amanda—was of his own doing. Though I think Sidney somewhat enjoyed playing the tortured soul, tbh.

4 hours ago, UpTooLate said:

Leonard and Mrs. C.'s conversation in the church.

I know! I like that they can all snap at one another and it doesn't ruin the foundation of their little chosen family.

[khyber]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.  It's  great to be  understanding about the problems gay men faced in the past, but nothing excuses marrying an innocent woman for cover when you know you don't really feel any passion for her and never will.  It's ruining another person's life to make your own more convenient and socially acceptable. I also think a lot of those self-hating gays in the past, like Leonard's father, blamed their wives for the way they were, as if she just wasn't desirable enough to  "change" him.  The poor woman would spend her life thinking if she just tried this new hair-do or kept the kitchen floor cleaner then he would find her attractive.

I

My Aunt's first marriage in the early 60s ended in divorce. I learned later that the guy was gay. I also think there was some physical abuse, so it all fits with what you are saying.

[BlackberryJam]

From Daniel's perspective, he saw a gay man struggling with staying secret and closeted attacking another gay man struggling with the exact same things. I full get why Daniel called Leonard out. Leonard had good points as well.

But then, when Daniel showed at the party and Leonard wanted to kick him out, I was LIVID with Leonard. 

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

It doesn't excuse it but it does explain it.  These men didn't enter these unions lightly, it was a matter of survival.  In 1950's England, prospects for gay men were slim.  There weren't many options like the priesthood and moving to France.  You could be jailed, fired, and kicked out of housing for just being perceived to be gay.  That was just from the government,  employers and landlords.  Families, backed by their churches, disowned their own kids. There was also gay-bashing and extortion.  I don't judge these men, I pity them and their wives.

I'm well aware of the history and I pity them for all they went through, too, but I don't agree that their situation ever gave them the right to enter into a marriage dishonestly.  Being miserable yourself, doesn't give you the right to make someone else miserable.  I don't agree that it's a matter of survival either.  Men were arrested for getting caught actively having gay sex, not just because someone suspected a man was gay.  There were plenty of "confirmed bachelors" living full lives in all sorts of careers. They didn't have to marry or else go to jail, they could live celibate lives or be very discreet.   Living a celibate life may sound hard but that's essentially what they were forcing their wives to do.  I don't "judge" anyone, but I don't think it's ever okay to use another person the way some of these men used their wives.

[sugarbaker design]

14 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm well aware of the history and I pity them for all they went through, too, but I don't agree that their situation ever gave them the right to enter into a marriage dishonestly.

I never said they had the right to do that, I just said I understood that despair could drive someone to do that.

 

30 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't agree that it's a matter of survival either.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

15 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

There were plenty of "confirmed bachelors" living full lives in all sorts of careers.

In all sorts of careers?  It may have been easier if gay men were upper class and had positions that reflected that class.  I don't think a person with "confirmed bachelor" status would fare so well with a more middle class job such as a miner or construction worker.

 

22 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

they could live celibate lives or be very discreet. 

Well good for them!  No sex or a closeted life, surely a recipe for happiness and fulfillment!

 

24 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't "judge" anyone, but I don't think it's ever okay to use another person the way some of these men used their wives.

And again, I don't think it was okay either, although I can certainly understand the self-hatred and bitterness that drove them to such actions.

[JudyObscure]

5 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

No sex or a closeted life, surely a recipe for happiness and fulfillment!

Yet you think it's perfectly understandable for a  man to knowingly condemn a woman to that life.  Anyway I just said that was an option for "survival."  Most people  would choose celibacy over death.

[Kohola3]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

It doesn't excuse it but it does explain it.  These men didn't enter these unions lightly, it was a matter of survival. 

Right there with you, Julia.  In those days unmarried men were given the side-eye or were openly mocked.  Any hint of not being "normal" made them targets and could influence a lot of the aspects of their lives.  And I would think that a fair number of them did think that if they were married they could be "changed" or at least could be good to a spouse if it meant that they would have to live alone for the rest of their lives. 

My uncle was gay, married, treated my aunt very, very well and they had children. Ultimately he felt guilty enough to confess and she was shocked but loved him enough to let him go.  I think she always suspected but they led what was considered a "normal" married life to outsiders although I doubt they had much of a sex life after the two kids were born.  They married out of high school so she really didn't know any different.  He was discreet after they separated but they were close until they died.

[willowk]

12 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.  It's  great to be  understanding about the problems gay men faced in the past, but nothing excuses marrying an innocent woman for cover when you know you don't really feel any passion for her and never will.  It's ruining another person's life to make your own more convenient and socially acceptable. I also think a lot of those self-hating gays in the past, like Leonard's father, blamed their wives for the way they were, as if she just wasn't desirable enough to  "change" him.  The poor woman would spend her life thinking if she just tried this new hair-do or kept the kitchen floor cleaner then he would find her attractive.

I'm okay with Will's preaching because he always uses his mistakes and what he's learned from them to inform his sermons.

Leonard and Mrs. C always have been my favorite "couple" since she first saw him vacuuming and said, "Now there's a real man!"  I'm glad they have each other through bad husbands and mean fathers.  

 

It was very common for gay men to marry until recently for a variety of reasons. It was thought that being gay was something to "get over", a failing or a passing fad. Some men wanted family, only way back then was to marry. Some hid their orientation from themselves, at least for many years. Leonard is mad at his dad for cheating on his mom, understandable, but I would guess the father wrestled with his desires for years. This may come back again, maybe something will make Leonard realize its not all black and white. However the dad is a tool, and still puts Leonard down, so I'm fine if he disappears and isn't seen on screen again.

13 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Seriously, what parishioner would ever come to Will for counsel?   His lack of understanding of human nature is astounding.  Accidentally starting a youth athletic league with a pedophile, throwing a temper tantrum when his mother decides to remarry, proposing to a woman after a quick grope in an alley are just recent examples.

Did he really think those women left home on a whim?

I've wondered why Will became a vicar, have they explained this? He seems too green to run his own parish.

Did like the ending of the season, with Will and Geordie on the patio with everyone celebrating inside. They kinda wrapped everything up in case it was the end. Satisfying, although if Will needs a frequent toss in the hay (so to speak) to be relaxed he needs to find a girl amenable to being "the vicar's wife". Maybe that will be next season's challenge.

Edited July 21, 2020 by willowk
correct spelling

[ComeWhatMay]

40 minutes ago, willowk said:

They kinda wrapped everything up in case it was the end.

More shows should do that; wrap up while leaving places to go as was done here if they do not have the green light for another series. It shows respect for the audience and humility on the part of the show runner. I was not a fan, but PBS should have shaved off the last bit of Beecham House given their fondness for cutting and Victoria‘s, of which I was a fan, hiatus looks permanent. And I still see people going on about Sanditon. 

[magdalene]

I am going to defend Will and his blind spots.  How could he have known that his friend Vic was a pedophile? I didn't know until the writing pushed our nose into it.  I thought because they were building this guy up over the the episodes that he was going to be a murder victim eventually. And I think it's perfectly understandable that Will would have a problem with his mother's choice of second husband, given the troubled family history. He is young and it shows in some situations but in general he is a smart and decent guy with good instincts.

6 minutes ago, ComeWhatMay said:

More shows should do that; wrap up while leaving places to go as was done here if they do not have the green light for another series. It shows respect for the audience and humility on the part of the show runner. I was not a fan, but PBS should have shaved off the last bit of Beecham House given their fondness for cutting and Victoria‘s, of which I was a fan, hiatus looks permanent. And I still see people going on about Sanditon. 

I wish I could like your post more than once!

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, willowk said:

Did like the ending of the season, with Will and Geordie on the patio with everyone celebrating inside. They kinda wrapped everything up in case it was the end.

I'm pretty sure Grantchester has done this every season. In fact, I think most if not all of the seasons end on a light-hearted chat between Geordie and his vicar, as well as some kind of a celebration (I can remember season one had a picnic with Geordie and his family, Sidney, and Leonard; last season there was some kind of dance and Will was getting on with the teacher that I wish they'd kept over Ellie... though admittedly it's easier to shoehorn a journalist into the weekly plot than a teacher; I can't remember the other season finales, but I feel like there's a definite pattern). I agree, it is nice of them to end on a satisfying note, and thus far karma has rewarded them with renewals each time!

[Irlandesa]

15 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

From Daniel's perspective, he saw a gay man struggling with staying secret and closeted attacking another gay man struggling with the exact same things. I full get why Daniel called Leonard out. Leonard had good points as well.

Leonard, however, confronted a grown man.  His father bullied a boy (Leonard).

So I don't see this as an apples to apples comparison.  

 

[BlackberryJam]

My post was about Daniel's perspective.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, UpTooLate said:

It was only the year before this point in the series that Alan Turing, in Britain, was convicted of the crime of "gross indecency" for having a gay relationship, and was given the choice between imprisonment and chemical castration.

I watched the movie about Alan Turing and I think of how dangerous it is for Leonard all the time.  He and Daniel are always kissing under trees and anyone could catch them. 

It was horrible for gay men back then and I know lots of them married for different reasons. Still,  unless the bride was fully informed it was fraudulent and cruel.  I wonder if people thought it was okay to do that to a young woman back then because they really didn't think nice women liked sex and as long as they had material things they were fine.

[Sarah 103]

9 hours ago, UpTooLate said:

I think it's quite brave of Leonard to be open, as open as he is. And having Daniel spend the night in the vicarage with him is either brave or very stupid, given what the punishment was.

My vote is stupid. I have this theory that loves makes you do stupid things. It does not matter what sexual orientation a person is.  Love is love, and love makes you do stupid things. That being said, I am rooting for Daniel and Leonard while knowing there are a zillion ways it could go wrong and that it is only a matter of time before it does.  

[TVForever]

13 hours ago, ComeWhatMay said:

More shows should do that; wrap up while leaving places to go as was done here if they do not have the green light for another series. It shows respect for the audience and humility on the part of the show runner. I was not a fan, but PBS should have shaved off the last bit of Beecham House given their fondness for cutting and Victoria‘s, of which I was a fan, hiatus looks permanent. And I still see people going on about Sanditon. 

Wait. Have you heard something about Victoria?

13 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am going to defend Will and his blind spots.  How could he have known that his friend Vic was a pedophile? I didn't know until the writing pushed our nose into it.  I thought because they were building this guy up over the the episodes that he was going to be a murder victim eventually. And I think it's perfectly understandable that Will would have a problem with his mother's choice of second husband, given the troubled family history. He is young and it shows in some situations but in general he is a smart and decent guy with good instincts.

I wish I could like your post more than once!

I agree about Will. None of us saw Vic turning out to be the monster he was, and it was actually painful to see how much Will was shaken by it. His sermon at the end of that episode was a powerful moment.  And watching his mother fall for the exact same type of man his father was- that stung. He could have handled his displeasure better, but I certainly understand the feeling. A more mature Will would probably have handled things differently.

I like Will. I was skeptical at first because I was sad to see Sidney go (despite the absolute mess that character became in the end, he had a certain matinee idol quality to him that I enjoyed <insert wolf whistle here>), but I've come to like Will very much. I hope we get a few more seasons with this group.

 

[ComeWhatMay]

1 hour ago, TVForever said:

Wait. Have you heard something about Victoria?

I agree about Will. None of us saw Vic turning out to be the monster he was, and it was actually painful to see how much Will was shaken by it. His sermon at the end of that episode was a powerful moment.  And watching his mother fall for the exact same type of man his father was- that stung. He could have handled his displeasure better, but I certainly understand the feeling. A more mature Will would probably have handled things differently.

I like Will. I was skeptical at first because I was sad to see Sidney go (despite the absolute mess that character became in the end, he had a certain matinee idol quality to him that I enjoyed <insert wolf whistle here>), but I've come to like Will very much. I hope we get a few more seasons with this group.

 

In addition to PBS’ deflection of inquiries, discussed in the series four thread on the show’s page, I get the sense the creator/writer was burned out doing it all (Series three was not my fave by far) and the silence and/or cagey way those involved are about the show continuing tells me they have moved on as people will when you leave it too long, especially in the short shelf life land of show business. I had not realized it was a Mammoth Screen show until I saw the Twitter image. I see what went down there in Peter Bowker’s comments that he would bring others in to help him with World on Fire, also a Mammoth Screen show. Grantchester, for its part, got a new lease on life with Brittney. It’s a shame they did not get Sidney to a better place or evolve him somewhat before Norton inevitably left given how beloved the actor was, but the show also set a good example by getting on with it and leaving Sidney behind. Leonard not mentioning Sidney in his vicarage family was not lost on me. It’s Will’s/Tom’s family/show now. I am not an Ellie fan, or think that she is the one for Will, but I imagine Will’s pal Grace can pop by for sexual healing until he finds his Ms. Right. Think Grissom and the madam on old school CSI. 

[magdalene]

I would guess Grantchester  getting good ratings on PBS played a big part in it getting another season.  I see that ITV had not renewed it when it aired in the UK earlier.

 

[cardigirl]

Oh, man.  What a load of ... something. 

Well, they tried to load up the finale, just in case, didn't they?  I don't know,  I'm just flummoxed by the writing this season. Will is about as helpful a priest as a bag of rocks. First, he abandons that poor boy who was sexually abused by Will's mentor, and then abandoned by his mother, because Will is too ashamed to face him. Good job clergyman.  GOOD JOB.  Wow, you've got a right old connection to God, haven't you? Because it's all about YOU isn't it? So, he fixes it by giving the kid the old gym (site of said sexual trauma) as his own.  Hmmmm.

Then he can't figure out these women in the so-called convent are hiding from something, not being held prisoner, and of course, good old Grace doesn't want to let anyone in on the secret and save some of the women from being returned to abusive situations. No, they have to go home and get beaten up first and then the penny drops for good old Will.  Thick as a board, this one is.  Geordie gets a little bit of a pass, because he's afraid of nuns (LOL).   But to fix everything, Will has sex with Grace.  Amazing.  Just amazing. I don't think my eyes have rolled back to the proper position yet. 

I thought I would like Leonard's story with his dad. He wants a connection. And Dad seems to want one too.  But all Leonard remembers is how cruel his father was to him and when he realized that Dad is like him and was cheating on his mother, Leonard turns into a self-righteous dick. No wonder Daniel called him cruel. Here was an opportunity for Leonard to show understanding and open a dialogue and he used it for revenge. Nice job, priest/clergyman. 

So, at the end, all is well with everyone, despite the fact that all they have shown us all season is that no one understands their calling.  

I'm not sure they should get another season.  It's really too bad.  I used to love this show. 

[rove4]

I enjoyed the season and, to be honest, I like Will better than Sidney...or at least the Sidney from latter part of his run on the show.  I binge watched the series, being new to it, so that I could start on time with this season. Seen that way, Sydney was really hard to take by the end. I was more than ready for him to move on. I find Will and the blind spots created by his daddy issues, as well as his issues with his mother's choice to remarry, much more relatable.  And I don't think Will is any worse at the doing the day-to-day Vicaring than his predecessor.  

That said, I really rolled my eyes hard at Will having sex with Grace.  Really?  He's chosen to be celibate until marriage, even holding off Ellie - the woman he professes to actually like, only to do a Sidney and fall into bed with a woman he's just met.  It must've been some magical sex too since it seemed to get Will to face up to some of his recent shortcomings.  🙄

Leonard is still my favorite. He had a knee jerk reaction to discovering his father's truth so I don't really fault him for that.  Time will tell what he does with his feelings about it going forward, assuming it's ever addressed again.  Loved the scene with Leonard and Mrs. C in the church.  Loved that she invited Daniel to the party. 

Ellie hasn't really won me over. 

Looking forward to season six!

Edited July 23, 2020 by rove4
spelling

[sinycalone]

Overall, I was happy with this season.  The issues presented (homosexuality, pedophelia, bipolar disease, gang rape, women dominated in their marriages, etc. ) were done well...as were the reactions by the people involved.  Their behavior suited the times...perhaps not what we would have preferred in today's view, but right for the period.  None of the topics were likely to be discussed openly in the 50s....so the characters were often being confronted for the first time with issues hidden for generations.

I like Will....he is learning from his mistakes...which is something Sidney never seemed to do.  I worry about Leonard....the people in his immediate circle are not being judgmental....so far.

Glad there is to be another season.

[dubbel zout]

32 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

I worry about Leonard....the people in his immediate circle are not being judgmental....so far.

It was last season that the immediate circle learned he was gay, so they've had some time to sit with it. I think even the bishop (or whoever Leonard's superior is) was okay with it as long as Leonard didn't act on it. That's where Leonard is playing with fire, IMO. He's not being especially discreet, and the wrong person is going to see him and Daniel together and cause trouble.

[rove4]

A bit random but I'm currently binge watching Lark Rise to Candleford and the actor who plays Daniel popped up in a guest starring role.  😊

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, rove4 said:

Lark Rise to Candleford

Loved it! Actors recognizable from shows like Downton Abbey and Call the Midwife.

[rove4]

3 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Loved it! Actors recognizable from shows like Downton Abbey and Call the Midwife.

And Poldark!  

[BlackberryJam]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:24 AM, cardigirl said:

Oh, man.  What a load of ... something. 

Well, they tried to load up the finale, just in case, didn't they?  I don't know,  I'm just flummoxed by the writing this season. Will is about as helpful a priest as a bag of rocks. First, he abandons that poor boy who was sexually abused by Will's mentor, and then abandoned by his mother, because Will is too ashamed to face him. Good job clergyman.  GOOD JOB.  Wow, you've got a right old connection to God, haven't you? Because it's all about YOU isn't it? So, he fixes it by giving the kid the old gym (site of said sexual trauma) as his own.  Hmmmm.

Then he can't figure out these women in the so-called convent are hiding from something, not being held prisoner, and of course, good old Grace doesn't want to let anyone in on the secret and save some of the women from being returned to abusive situations. No, they have to go home and get beaten up first and then the penny drops for good old Will.  Thick as a board, this one is.  Geordie gets a little bit of a pass, because he's afraid of nuns (LOL).   But to fix everything, Will has sex with Grace.  Amazing.  Just amazing. I don't think my eyes have rolled back to the proper position yet. 

I thought I would like Leonard's story with his dad. He wants a connection. And Dad seems to want one too.  But all Leonard remembers is how cruel his father was to him and when he realized that Dad is like him and was cheating on his mother, Leonard turns into a self-righteous dick. No wonder Daniel called him cruel. Here was an opportunity for Leonard to show understanding and open a dialogue and he used it for revenge. Nice job, priest/clergyman. 

So, at the end, all is well with everyone, despite the fact that all they have shown us all season is that no one understands their calling.  

I'm not sure they should get another season.  It's really too bad.  I used to love this show. 

I somehow agree with everything you said, but still want another season.

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I somehow agree with everything you said, but still want another season.

I think they are getting another one. I hate to sound so harsh, because I love British stories set in small towns in the 50s and 60s but this could have been great and it just wasn't. 

[Kohola3]

I confess I really enjoyed this season way more than the ones with Sidney.  He was always a whisker away from being suicidal it seemed to me.  While Will certainly has his issues at least he isn't drinking himself into an early grave.

I am not happy that Mrs. C caved so easily but I guess it was necessary to keep her from being a two-time loser.

Love Leonard so much.  I just hope he doesn't end up in jail.  It would be awful if Geordie found him doing something considered illegal at that time and is forced to arrest him.

Glad for another season.

[buttersister]

Quote

Love Leonard so much.  I just hope he doesn't end up in jail.  It would be awful if Geordie found him doing something considered illegal at that time and is forced to arrest him.

Yes, I hope it wasn't an anvil falling when Geordie arrested the girl who was raped earlier this season. But that was before his reawakened husband behavior, so maybe he'd find a way around it. [/speculation]

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 7/20/2020 at 11:52 AM, BlackberryJam said:

But then, when Daniel showed at the party and Leonard wanted to kick him out, I was LIVID with Leonard. 

I thought that was just because Leonard didn't yet realize it was safe for Daniel to be there because Mrs C invited him herself, not because he was angry with him. After all, he still told his father after that argument that he was in love and happier than he'd ever been before.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 7/19/2020 at 10:46 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

Also, was it just me or did Sister Grace bare a slight resemblance to Will's mom?

I didn't think so, but they were both on Doctor Who, one as Yvonne Hartman (the leader of Torchwood London) and the other as Kate Stewart (the leader of UNIT).

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I thought that was just because Leonard didn't yet realize it was safe for Daniel to be there because Mrs C invited him herself, not because he was angry with him. After all, he still told his father after that argument that he was in love and happier than he'd ever been before.

Everyone at the party (except the girls, maybe) knew that Leonard was gay, so there was nothing to worry about there.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Everyone at the party (except the girls, maybe) knew that Leonard was gay, so there was nothing to worry about there.

That's not the point; Mrs C told Leonard last season that he couldn't have Daniel around him when she was present if she and he were to remain friends. Leonard was sending Daniel away so that Mrs C wouldn't get offended. Once he learned that she invited him herself, there was no danger of that happening.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Kohola3]

14 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's not the point; Mrs C told Leonard last season that he couldn't have Daniel around him when she was present if she and he were to remain friends. Leonard was sending Daniel away so that Mrs C wouldn't get offended. Once he learned that she invited him herself, there was no danger of that happening.

I'd forgotten about that. You're correct and that makes it even sweeter that she did the inviting.

[dubbel zout]

I'd forgotten about that, too, obviously.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

I'd forgotten about that. You're correct and that makes it even sweeter that she did the inviting.

Yeah, it's great to have that resolved between them.

[lucindabelle]

Did anyone else feel sure that St Jean was a con man? Just me? It was so weird when he asked Will what he made. Not the kind of thing a kn aristocrat would ever discuss. It’s not as though wealthy titled men in their 50s and 60s just hang out having lunch at the Savoy... I’m kinda disappointed. 

unpopular opinion but I kind of wish Ellie had taken the proposal seriously. I thought it was sweet and though very unexpected not unprecedented. That said of course he should have been ready with “I know this is sudden etc etc but I want you to think about it.” Her reaction just did sort of prove that she’s not the one for him though because she didn’t even try to understand where he was coming from and be gentle with her rejection. 
 

also just as a viewer DAMN it would have been interesting to see them engaged that quickly and dealing with it. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by lucindabelle

[TVForever]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Did anyone else feel sure that St Jean was a con man? Just me? It was so weird when he asked Will what he made. Not the kind of thing a kn aristocrat would ever discuss. It’s not as though wealthy titled men in their 50s and 60s just hang out having lunch at the Savoy... I’m kinda disappointed. 

unpopular opinion but I kind of wish Ellie had taken the proposal seriously. I thought it was sweet and though very unexpected not unprecedented. That said of course he should have been ready with “I know this is sudden etc etc but I want you to think about it.” Her reaction just did sort of prove that she’s not the one for him though because she didn’t even try to understand where he was coming from and be gentle with her rejection. 
 

also just as a viewer DAMN it would have been interesting to see them engaged that quickly and dealing with it. 

I didn't doubt that he was rich, but I thought he was likely an abusive jerk like Will's father. I wondered if Will's instant dislike of the man was more about his mother possibly ending up with Awful Husband 2.0 , especially when she didn't have to. It seems that she was left with enough money to live comfortably, if not at the same level as before. As far as he was concerned, she was free. 

As far as Ellie goes, I don't have a problem with her turning down his proposal. Sure, it was a little harsh, but I can see her being taken aback. They had only been on one actual date! And of course, there's the bigger issue of whether you should ever consider being a vicar's wife if you clearly feel a certain way about religion, which apparently she had made clear to Will already. So, no, Ellie was clearly not ready to say yes to a proposal right now. 

That said, I actually like them as a potential couple.And I'm glad that Will has gotten over the rejection and that they've agreed to start over as friends getting to know each other properly. 

[Kohola3]

48 minutes ago, TVForever said:

It seems that she was left with enough money to live comfortably, if not at the same level as before. As far as he was concerned, she was free. 

But free to Will may be scary to her.  Women of that era were expected to be married and she probably didn't know anything else.  And women back then were not prone to stand up for themselves in abusive situations, divorce was frowned upon no matter how bad the circumstances.  My aunt was divorced in the late 1940's and it was a big shameful secret, never to be spoken of.  Nowadays we'd laugh at that but back then it was different.

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

It was so weird when he asked Will what he made.

I took that as a way to put Will in his place: He's just a paltry vicar making a paltry salary. He wouldn't be able to support his mother on his own if necessary. I don't know if St. John feels threatened by Will somehow as Amelia's son, but he's certainly doing everything he can to show who the alpha male is.

Do we know if Will received any inheritance from his father? I can't remember if that was ever mentioned. I know they had a difficult relationship, but given the time period, I'm surprised Will wasn't at least an executor or trustee or something of his father's estate. You know how the wimmins know nothing about that sort of thing. /sarcasm

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I can't remember if that was ever mentioned. I know they had a difficult relationship, but given the time period, I'm surprised Will wasn't at least an executor or trustee or something of his father's estate.

I thought that there wasn't any money left.  Wasn't that why his father killed himself?

[dubbel zout]

How has his mom been surviving? Did she just live on credit until St. John came along?

[lucindabelle]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I took that as a way to put Will in his place: He's just a paltry vicar making a paltry salary. He wouldn't be able to support his mother on his own if necessary. I don't know if St. John feels threatened by Will somehow as Amelia's son, but he's certainly doing everything he can to show who the alpha male is.

Do we know if Will received any inheritance from his father? I can't remember if that was ever mentioned. I know they had a difficult relationship, but given the time period, I'm surprised Will wasn't at least an executor or trustee or something of his father's estate. You know how the wimmins know nothing about that sort of thing. /sarcasm

I agree that was the point, however, aristocrats don’t talk about money. It’s considered very déclassé, what Americans do. Someone who is really a peer of the realm would find another way to belittle him other than salary. It felt wildly off.

 

also I totally understand why Elie would turn him down and it’s in character for her to have done it the way she did. I just wish she hadn’t. It would have been much more interesting.

Edited July 26, 2020 by lucindabelle

[dubbel zout]

35 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Someone who is really a peer of the realm

We still haven't been told what his title is. I doubt he's that high up in the pecking order. Anyway, St. John is enough of a dick I totally believe he'd talk about money.

[TVForever]

7 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

But free to Will may be scary to her.  Women of that era were expected to be married and she probably didn't know anything else.  And women back then were not prone to stand up for themselves in abusive situations, divorce was frowned upon no matter how bad the circumstances.  My aunt was divorced in the late 1940's and it was a big shameful secret, never to be spoken of.  Nowadays we'd laugh at that but back then it was different.

Agreed. Especially for women of her social set, I imagine. Your social standing came from your marriage, so I can see how having the right husband ( St John seems to be titled and rich) is the standard, even if he's the wrong man.

[ComeWhatMay]

Will told Amelia the sale of the manor would bail them out and net proceeds, which it clearly did given her lovely apartment that would have been more than enough for a good many people. Aristos/titled/gentry/what have you can be as tacky as anybody else and St. John’s ways would make him no one’s first choice and were likely well known by those in his circle, hence his shopping at The Savoy. 

[Ms Lark]

On 7/20/2020 at 10:20 PM, ComeWhatMay said:

And I still see people going on about Sanditon. 

Off-topic, but Amazon UK is talking about doing a Season 2 of Sanditon: http://britishperioddramas.com/news/amazon-prime-sanditon-season-2-plans/

Don't know how far it will get, but they were trying.

[seacliffsal]

I actually thought that during Leonard and his father's last scene that the story would be that Leonard's mother was pregnant with him (by someone else) and they married each other to cover for each other.  Obviously, it didn't turn out that way, but that was what I expected to happen with their story.

[wanderingstar]

I'm midway through season 5, and I cannot believe Will proposed to Ellie. WTF, Will?

Also, Leonard saying to Mrs. C "Sometimes I wish St. Paul hadn't written so many letters" made me cackle.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Gillian Rosh