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Kromm

Season Four: Speculation

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A loooooooong road to this, but since the renewal has actually been confirmed... speculate away... 

I'm trying to decide if the end of season three actually should be written to hold her back or not. I mean they've done the setback thing with her career already, so we've seen the story with her thinking about giving up, as well as the smaller setback where she had to do annoying radio work. I think they just need to have a time jump and we return now to her being a moderate success on her own. They've made it clear that Midge isn't Joan Rivers, seeing as how her bio, marital status and even style are all played differently than Rivers, but she's still got elements of being a rough parallel. And in the time period they're approaching Rivers was in her first movie and not that far off her first Tonight Show appearance. Then again, Rivers was friends with Woody Allen, George Carlin and had already appeared in an off Broadway show with Barbara Streisand. All Midge has is Lenny Bruce (who despite what this show implies had very little influence--he only appeared on TV himself a grand total of four times). Season four really has to be about Midge's rise to mainstream success. It's time, otherwise it will feel stalled and repetitive. 

 

Counterarguments?  Other opinions? Let's hear em. 

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4 hours ago, Kromm said:

A loooooooong road to this, but since the renewal has actually been confirmed... speculate away... 

I'm trying to decide if the end of season three actually should be written to hold her back or not. I mean they've done the setback thing with her career already, so we've seen the story with her thinking about giving up, as well as the smaller setback where she had to do annoying radio work. I think they just need to have a time jump and we return now to her being a moderate success on her own. They've made it clear that Midge isn't Joan Rivers, seeing as how her bio, marital status and even style are all played differently than Rivers, but she's still got elements of being a rough parallel. And in the time period they're approaching Rivers was in her first movie and not that far off her first Tonight Show appearance. Then again, Rivers was friends with Woody Allen, George Carlin and had already appeared in an off Broadway show with Barbara Streisand. All Midge has is Lenny Bruce (who despite what this show implies had very little influence--he only appeared on TV himself a grand total of four times). Season four really has to be about Midge's rise to mainstream success. It's time, otherwise it will feel stalled and repetitive. 

 

Counterarguments?  Other opinions? Let's hear em. 

Your suggestions^ have me imagining season 4 opening with Midge on the Johnny Carson show. Or would it be better for it to be the Jimmy Carson show, given the social media uproar about Lenny Bruce not being portrayed as the exact Lenny Bruce that history has made him out to be?

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On 12/27/2019 at 8:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

Your suggestions^ have me imagining season 4 opening with Midge on the Johnny Carson show. Or would it be better for it to be the Jimmy Carson show, given the social media uproar about Lenny Bruce not being portrayed as the exact Lenny Bruce that history has made him out to be?

They would totally use Johnny Carson's name. There was never a “Johnny Carson Show.” It has always been “The Tonight Show,” but people have always referred to it by the host’s name. Rose has already made reference to “watching Jack Parr,” who hosted “The Tonight Show” before Carson. If they used Parr’s name, they would use Carson’s. I did have to look up when Carson took over TTS. 

So, for S4 to pick up with Midge appearing on TTS with Johnny Carson, there would have to be a short time jump to 1962. I would really want to know what happened in two years that allowed her to go from being kicked off a tour to appearing on a California-based national TV show. The only way I can see that working is if S4 E1 starts there, and then they spend the season filling in that gap. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Asshat said:

So, for S4 to pick up with Midge appearing on TTS with Johnny Carson, there would have to be a short time jump to 1962.

Things like that^ are why I thought it would be simpler for it to be the fictional Jimmy Carson. But maybe that would annoy just as many viewers as would taking liberties with historical facts if they used Johnny Carson.
Or maybe just have it be Jack Parr.

Edited by shapeshifter
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Susie is a talented manager in some ways, with lots of moxie and the ability to win people over despite her brusque manner. But of course that’s overlooking deficiencies like not signing the contract and, oh, gambling away all your client’s earnings. Susie needs someone with the business smarts of Mrs. Moskowitz to set things straight! I speculate that Mrs. M and her baseball bat fill in the “Associates” part of Susie’s corporation name. I bet the writers could have fun with that!

Edited by Macnyc
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Susie needs someone with the business smarts of Mrs. Moskowitz to set things straight! I speculate that Mrs. M and her baseball bat fill in the “Associates” part of Susie’s corporation name. I bet the writers could have fun with that!

Seconded! Smartest thing Joel ever did was bring Mrs. Moskowitz with him to his father's business (and his own new one.)

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On 12/29/2019 at 4:35 PM, Captain Asshat said:

They would totally use Johnny Carson's name. There was never a “Johnny Carson Show.” It has always been “The Tonight Show,” but people have always referred to it by the host’s name. Rose has already made reference to “watching Jack Parr,” who hosted “The Tonight Show” before Carson. If they used Parr’s name, they would use Carson’s. I did have to look up when Carson took over TTS. 

So, for S4 to pick up with Midge appearing on TTS with Johnny Carson, there would have to be a short time jump to 1962. I would really want to know what happened in two years that allowed her to go from being kicked off a tour to appearing on a California-based national TV show. The only way I can see that working is if S4 E1 starts there, and then they spend the season filling in that gap. 

How about to fill in the gap if she's not quite at the level of California and The Tonight Show, she could be a repeat guest on The Merv Griffin Show  (a la Totie Fields); New York based (Merv didn't head for California until the early '70s) but still seen nationally.  After that, California and TTS.

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The Tonight Show continued to be taped in New York at 30 Rock for Carson's first ten years as host, beginning 1962. The show moved to California in May 1972. I'm pretty sure we'll see Midge appear there "soon," in show time. 

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 All Midge has is Lenny Bruce (who despite what this show implies had very little influence--he only appeared on TV himself a grand total of four times). 

As whitewashed and censored as TV was in those days, I don't think you can measure a comic's influence by how many times he appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. His shocking, blunt commentary was part of his appeal. You had to see his act. Maybe his popularity was more of a regional thing. I've always thought of him as a legend among his peers.

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On 12/29/2019 at 4:35 PM, Captain Asshat said:

They would totally use Johnny Carson's name. There was never a “Johnny Carson Show.” It has always been “The Tonight Show,” but people have always referred to it by the host’s name. Rose has already made reference to “watching Jack Parr,” who hosted “The Tonight Show” before Carson. If they used Parr’s name, they would use Carson’s. I did have to look up when Carson took over TTS. 

So, for S4 to pick up with Midge appearing on TTS with Johnny Carson, there would have to be a short time jump to 1962. I would really want to know what happened in two years that allowed her to go from being kicked off a tour to appearing on a California-based national TV show. The only way I can see that working is if S4 E1 starts there, and then they spend the season filling in that gap. 

The Tonight Show was out of New York until 1972.  In other words, it's very unlikely we'd have to see Midge travel to L.A. to appear on The Tonight Show, not that it would really be that big a deal for a comedian we'd already seen on big stages in Miami and Las Vegas.  Carson's talent scouts were always on the lookout in New York particularly for standups to fly out to L.A. to do the show.  Often this would be bundled up by agents with auditions for TV pilots--another potential storyline for this show. However, since this show isn't likely to go as late as 1972, I imagine they'll get Midge out to L.A. via some other method besides The Tonight Show to get those TV-pilot stories.

On 1/9/2020 at 3:04 PM, mojito said:

As whitewashed and censored as TV was in those days, I don't think you can measure a comic's influence by how many times he appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. His shocking, blunt commentary was part of his appeal. You had to see his act. Maybe his popularity was more of a regional thing. I've always thought of him as a legend among his peers.

Bruce's real influence was AFTER he was gone. His legend grew.  In his day, he was notorious in the newspapers and indeed was regionally famous, but I don't think the average American household necessarily had ANY idea who he was the few times he did pop up on TV. 

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On 1/11/2020 at 8:47 PM, shapeshifter said:

Hollywood Squares began in 1966. I would be okay with them pretending it started sooner so Midge could be a guest star.

"To Tell The Truth" was in it's prime (and filmed in New York) during the period this show covers. And Midge is EXACTLY the kind of panelist they'd have on.  Ditto for "I've Got A Secret" and "What's My Line".

"Password" used slightly higher caliber guest stars (those first three would use socialites, stage performers, newspaper columnists, and mid-range comedians, whereas Password generally used guests already established on TV), so it's the least likely. 

Edited by Kromm
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 but I don't think the average American household necessarily had ANY idea who he was the few times he did pop up on TV. 

No, of course not. 

The average American household probably has no idea who Bill Burr is either. Or most stand-up comedians, and they have more access to stand-up acts than ever.

Edited by mojito
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5 hours ago, Kromm said:
On 1/11/2020 at 7:47 PM, shapeshifter said:

Hollywood Squares began in 1966. I would be okay with them pretending it started sooner so Midge could be a guest star.

"To Tell The Truth" was in it's prime (and filmed in New York) during the period this show covers. And Midge is EXACTLY the kind of panelist they'd have on.  Ditto for "I've Got A Secret" and "What's My Line".

"Password" used slightly higher caliber guest stars (those first three would use socialites, stage performers, newspaper columnists, and mid-range comedians, whereas Password generally used guests already established on TV), so it's the least likely. 

Yeah, but Hollywood Squares has a lot more opportunity for Midge to be funny. Or inappropriate —as ASP seems to prefer. 

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I think Rose's brothers are going to fork over her monthly check anyway.  Probably with a nice raise.   Why would they risk her suing them and their books being open in court. 

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On 5/19/2020 at 9:14 PM, magenta said:

I think Rose's brothers are going to fork over her monthly check anyway.  Probably with a nice raise.   Why would they risk her suing them and their books being open in court. 

I was shouting "get a lawyer Rose" jeeze, her and Papa are both big fans of foot shooting.

As for Dr. Ben. He'll be one of those guys you look back on after 50 years and and kick yourself...hard 

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38 minutes ago, crowsworks said:

As for Dr. Ben. He'll be one of those guys you look back on after 50 years and and kick yourself...hard 

I have a few of those, and they weren't even doctors or all that financially successful, heh, so for sure there will be a lot of viewers who will always relate that way to Dr. Ben, but I'm not sure Midge will.
IIRC, Gilmore Girls was known for bringing back old flames, so maybe...

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I love the idea of Midge appearing on a late night show, especially since most were still based in New York (Jack Parr or something similar).

On 1/2/2020 at 5:31 PM, TexasGal said:

Mr. "Food and Beverage" in Vegas loved her.  She could work there for a while.  

A full season set in Vegas could be fun. Also Mr. "Food and Beverage" was fantastic because he took the time to give Midge advice that would help her improve her act, instead of yelling at her or making a mean/cruel remark about how women aren't funny and shouldn't do standup. He genuinely wanted to help her succeed. 

On 1/11/2020 at 8:47 PM, shapeshifter said:

Hollywood Squares began in 1966. I would be okay with them pretending it started sooner so Midge could be a guest star.

I adore the idea of Midge being on "Hollywood Squares." her quick wit and style/comedic sensability would be perfect for the that show. 

This isn't really speculation but something I would love to see at some point in the series. The scene of Midge and Noah smoking on the fire-escape seemed so natural, like they done this a thousand times before. I would love to see flashbacks to the two of them as kids or teenagers. The show has done flashbacks before, but I know they have not gone this far back. Still, it is something I would like to see. If not a flashback, I would like to see the show the explore the sibling relationship between Midge and Noah 

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On 8/26/2020 at 9:56 PM, Sarah 103 said:

I adore the idea of Midge being on "Hollywood Squares." her quick wit and style/comedic sensability would be perfect for the that show. 

But of course eventually she would start speaking without thinking. At first they’d yell “Cut to commercial!” but eventually she’d not be asked back anymore. 
I would love it if somehow Susie got a chance to shine in a Hollywood Square. 

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14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But of course eventually she would start speaking without thinking. At first they’d yell “Cut to commercial!” but eventually she’d not be asked back anymore. 
I would love it if somehow Susie got a chance to shine in a Hollywood Square. 

That would be fantastic! Maybe there's a crazy last minute cancelation (because rules of TVLand) so they have Susie fill a square. I love the idea of seeing Midge go too far for network TV and the conseqeunces of that. One the one hand, she doesn't get asked back to Hollywood Squares. On the other hand, other people within the industry who may not have seen Midge before realize how funny it is.

It reminds me of the episode of Murphy Brown where she goes on a kids' show with puppet characters. She gets into a fight with one the puppets and accidently decapitates him. For the character, it's a disaster. For the viewer watching at home, it is a comedic delight.   

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19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I would love it if somehow Susie got a chance to shine in a Hollywood Square. 

Huh? Can't say I get it. In the show's universe, not only would Suzy never agree to it, there's also no way anyone would ask her.  

Now the trope that would be explored could be Suzy wandering in front of a camera while the show is being filmed.  But better yet, not on Hollywood Squares, but on a live show where it couldn't simply be cut. Or take it further.  A fictional live TV show, Suzy somehow gets thrust on stage, and the host is fascinated by this strange character unlike pretty much any other woman around in that time period, so Suzy gets dragged into an interview, cutting into Midge's time quite by mischance.  

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52 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Huh? Can't say I get it. In the show's universe, not only would Suzy never agree to it, there's also no way anyone would ask her.  

Now the trope that would be explored could be Suzy wandering in front of a camera while the show is being filmed.  But better yet, not on Hollywood Squares, but on a live show where it couldn't simply be cut. Or take it further.  A fictional live TV show, Suzy somehow gets thrust on stage, and the host is fascinated by this strange character unlike pretty much any other woman around in that time period, so Suzy gets dragged into an interview, cutting into Midge's time quite by mischance.  

You are correct that IRL, Susie wouldn't get on Hollywood Squares. But this isn't real life. 
Still, I'll give you that the show hasn't strayed very far from real life, so, how about if Midge is booked for Hollywood Squares but runs off to do something else, so Susie shows up to "explain," but some low level flunky at the Squares who has never seen or heard of Midge mistakes Susie for Midge --which is a very classic situation-comedy-- and, bingo, we get Susie on HS?

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On the topic of Season 4, I found that Dawes the Butler will be making at least 2 appearances (which means that Sophie is probably back).

Stephen Hauck plays Dawes, and he was in a play reading I went to on Friday. We were chatting about the show, and he was happy to say he got called in again.

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Thank GOD!!!!

It's been so long, I've forgotten - do they drop ALL episodes at the same time and give me a fabulous weekend of bingeing and popcorn consumption?

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18 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

I may wait for the whole series to be available and check in here!

 

Yeah, we'll probably just wait a month and watch them all over a few nights.

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Must admit, I am looking forward to this.

The rationing of two episodes a week?  So annoying.   These streaming services liberate us from a lifetime of getting by on one episode a week, they get us addicted to the freedom of bingeing and choosing for ourselves how and when we will consume content ... and then they're like Ha, ha, fuck you, suckers, we're going back to the old network model -- and we're raising the price!

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I, for one, am thrilled. I get to savour the show over a longer period of time and don't need to watch it all over a weekend. Those who like to binge can still wait until everything is dropped before starting to watch it. I blame Netflix for this drop all episodes at once madness and I'm glad other steamers are now dropping episodes in a much more reasonable way.

 

Yes i know it's about keeping subscribers longer but I'm still happy.

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Yeah, I, too, would rather watch something at a leisurely pace. This isn't a show I'm worried about being spoiled about, but I hate feeling like I have to rush to watch things before I accidentally hear something I don't want to hear.

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