S15.E08: Our Father, Who Aren't in Heaven

[Ray Adverb]

I liked it, but I'm kind of wondering why the guys don't just leave God alone.  It feels like they're swatting a hornet's nest here.  Yes he's fucking with their lives, but an angry God can do so much more damage.

The opening scene was chilling.  God killed everyone in a casino except one waitress, then rigged a slot machine so he would win every time.  That doesn't seem fun at all.

Was that the Fall Finale?

[PAForrest]

Given this was a B-L episode, yes, it could have been major suckage, but was surprisingly okay.  That's about as high praise as I can give one of their episodes.

However, enough with the cheap lazy lame-ass dumb Dean jokes, especially since it's unwarranted. Dean has used the phrase "Achilles Heel" before, he knows what it means. Everyone knows what it means. It's ubiquitous. You don't even have to be well-read to know the freaking phrase.

Rowena as Queen of Hell was a shock to absolutely no one whatsoever. This was totally expected. But yes, I'm pissed the guys can no longer seem to fight demons they used to take on very well before the Dabbernatural era. Now I don't know why they bother to try anymore.

Seeing as a couple of staunch Destielers claimed this episode was going to be all about that ship, I was very relieved when it was not the case at all. Yes, Rowena noticed they were frosty toward each other - and that was it.

Jake Abel seems like a nice enough guy, but in the acting department he is no Jensen Ackles. It was interesting that the script made it painfully clear each and every single time which character he was supposed to be playing - Adam or Michael - because there was little to no differentiation in the performance on that score. I'm fine with that dangling thread being wrapped up, but I hope we don't see a whole lot more of Adam!Michael since it's just more salt in the wound as this was always supposed to be Jensen's role, especially given how screwed over he was last year when the chance finally presented itself.

I knew the whole vamp thing was a set-up since it was obvious. It does appear that Chuckles has gone completely Dark Side, which should mean by default that Amara is now the Light. I don't see any way to redeem Chuckles at this point.

Saileen seems to be the endgame - or an endgame. Whether or not it really comes about remains to be seen. And I like Eileen and Shoshanna a lot. It's just too bad that she and Jared have zero chemistry.

Edited December 13, 2019 by PAForrest

[tennisgurl]

"Oh, hi random person I met that one time, conveniently calling out of the blue to ask me to come out of the protected zone to help with this random hunt! Come, one of two people that are in the center of a battle against God and are in the middle dealing with both their long lost half brother who they left in hell that one time as well as an extremely powerful arc angel, let us go to the assistance of random person who conveniently needs or help right now! This all seems legit! Better also run off with minimal supplies and not tell anyone else where we went as we go to the second location" 

Somewhere, Admiral Ackbar is just shaking his head.  

Edited December 13, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Lilyshadow33]

I can understand why Lucifer would lie about Michael's competence in Season 11, but why would Chuck? Chuck needed all the help he could get against Amara-- she nearly killed him! And it just makes the Winchesters seem dumb for not trying to get real Michael's help against alt-Michael and Lucifer, since apparently he's been fine this whole time. 

It makes me sad that Chuck would have so much contempt for his own creations. But I guess if this is just one of many of his worlds, it makes sense. 

I'm just happy someone FINALLY remembered that God can't be killed without the universe dying (as we saw in S11). The way things ended last week, I wasn't sure they remembered. Although I'm not totally convinced that God has been "out of control" and that they need to take the fight to him. The Winchesters don't know about Becky and Chuck's other massacres. He hasn't bothered them since sending Lilith after them. But fine, I get it, he's weak, so the time to act is now. (Why God would create a weapon that could actually hurt him I will never understand). 

Overall, I actually liked this episode. I'm annoyed that Rowena had to be brought back AGAIN, and that Michael was able to create a portal to Purgatory with just a snap of his fingers while in angel handcuffs. If it's that easy, why couldn't Raphael, another arch-angel, do that back in Season 6 when he was trying to beat Castiel to the souls? Why did Death have to make an Eclipse to open the same door? 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t even know what Sam and Eileen are supposed to be. Just that the intro scene with them had some unintended comical bits. Like when tiny Eileen slammed Sam out of the way like she had superpowers.

This. It was the same last episode, her holding Sergei up against the wall by the throat. At least then she had Castiel there as back-up (if it was only intimidation that was holding him there and not her super-strength). She's not a ninja ffs, she's never had this kind of strength before. WTF show. I guess the point of that opening was to show that she'd scared Sam, going off without him, so it would make sense that she brought him along to The Trap.

I really do like Jake Abel and his tweet of thanks after the airing was touching, given what he's recently been through (loss of a child). I just wish they hadn't so tarnished the Michael story line for me that I couldn't see past it. Too bad they couldn't have just had Adam come back and left Michael drooling somewhere in a corner of Hell (or Heaven).

I don't mind that Dean apologized to him, and I was glad he said 'we'.

1 hour ago, Ray Adverb said:

Was that the Fall Finale?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Donatello was amusing. The way he ran out of the bunker? Most realistic reaction ever. 

This was perfect.

[gonzosgirrl]

Also, are prophet skills cumulative? Because it pretty much killed Kevin to eek out the tablet's story, while Donatello read that puppy like the Sunday paper.

[Lilyshadow33]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, are prophet skills cumulative? Because it pretty much killed Kevin to eek out the tablet's story, while Donatello read that puppy like the Sunday paper.

Eh, it was only really killing Kevin when he only had half of the tablet to read. He translated the Leviathan tablet at the end of Season 7 in like a day. 

I was just concerned because didn't Donatello go crazy reading it the last time because he had no soul to act as a filter? And doesn't he still not have a soul? 

[Aeryn13]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This. It was the same last episode, her holding Sergei up against the wall by the throat. At least then she had Castiel there as back-up (if it was only intimidation that was holding him there and not her super-strength). She's not a ninja ffs, she's never had this kind of strength before. WTF show. I guess the point of that opening was to show that she'd scared Sam, going off without him, so it would make sense that she brought him along to The Trap.

I really do like Jake Abel and his tweet of thanks after the airing was touching, given what he's recently been through (loss of a child). I just wish they hadn't so tarnished the Michael story line for me that I couldn't see past it. Too bad they couldn't have just had Adam come back and left Michael drooling somewhere in a corner of Hell (or Heaven).

I don't mind that Dean apologized to him, and I was glad he said 'we'.

Yes.

This was perfect.

I just saw the tweet. Very sweet, indeed. Admittedly, the recent sad news about his persoanl life were at the back of my mind a bit watching the episode.

But yes, 100 % with the bitterness over Michael in general. This episode gave the best writing and most effort to Michael since, well, ever. As such both Michael and Adam kinda got the strongest material and biggest focus of the ep.

Would have been amazing way back when if Michael and Dean ever got to a bond like that. Oh well.

I found it amusing that they used their new deus ex machina returnee to quickly dispatch their last one. Lilith only had a one-episode purpose so she needed tying up. At least they're re-doing Sam-kills with other characters now.

I think super-powered Eileen is just a clumsy way of portraying badass. If it's physically ludicrous or not. But Sam's faces were even funnier, it was like he was in a cartoon.

[Commando Cody]

Seeing Chuck possess Donatello reminded me of something. I had to accept that Chuck is God. I could never accept that Chuck was always God.  

Everything that happened in the episode was predictable. 

I had to kind of speculate. Michael is millions? of years old?  Would ten years just be peanuts to him?  Maybe not to Adam, but it seems like ten years wouldn't mean much to Michael.  Even in hell years, it seems like it wouldn't be that much time in his perspective. 

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I had to kind of speculate. Michael is millions? of years old?  Would ten years just be peanuts to him?  Maybe not to Adam, but it seems like ten years wouldn't mean much to Michael.  Even in hell years, it seems like it wouldn't be that much time in his perspective. 

Maybe that's why he was so benevolent toward Adam? He was all, eh, you got dragged down with me, I guess the least I could do is not fry your brains.

I am admittedly shocked that they had Adam sort of own his part of the responsibility for what happened to him.

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe that's why he was so benevolent toward Adam? He was all, eh, you got dragged down with me, I guess the least I could do is not fry your brains.

I am admittedly shocked that they had Adam sort of own his part of the responsibility for what happened to him.

For about 6 (whatever in hell years) years Lucifer was down there with them so possibly Michael and Adam turned towards each other to drown out his incessant blabbering.

[Castiels Cat]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe that's why he was so benevolent toward Adam? He was all, eh, you got dragged down with me, I guess the least I could do is not fry your brains.

I am admittedly shocked that they had Adam sort of own his part of the responsibility for what happened to him.

Michael did say he would not fry his vessel 's brains... he did seem to make that promise to them.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Lilyshadow33 said:

Eh, it was only really killing Kevin when he only had half of the tablet to read. He translated the Leviathan tablet at the end of Season 7 in like a day. 

I was just concerned because didn't Donatello go crazy reading it the last time because he had no soul to act as a filter? And doesn't he still not have a soul? 

Remember this is a Nepotism duo script and they do not bother with canon. . . Because they create new canon/water pistols/LOL!canon. They were all watching him very very closely which I took as a nod to that recent plotline.  

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Lilyshadow33 said:

I can understand why Lucifer would lie about Michael's competence in Season 11, but why would Chuck? Chuck needed all the help he could get against Amara-- she nearly killed him! And it just makes the Winchesters seem dumb for not trying to get real Michael's help against alt-Michael and Lucifer, since apparently he's been fine this whole time. 

It makes me sad that Chuck would have so much contempt for his own creations. But I guess if this is just one of many of his worlds, it makes sense. 

I'm just happy someone FINALLY remembered that God can't be killed without the universe dying (as we saw in S11). The way things ended last week, I wasn't sure they remembered. Although I'm not totally convinced that God has been "out of control" and that they need to take the fight to him. The Winchesters don't know about Becky and Chuck's other massacres. He hasn't bothered them since sending Lilith after them. But fine, I get it, he's weak, so the time to act is now. (Why God would create a weapon that could actually hurt him I will never understand). 

Overall, I actually liked this episode. I'm annoyed that Rowena had to be brought back AGAIN, and that Michael was able to create a portal to Purgatory with just a snap of his fingers while in angel handcuffs. If it's that easy, why couldn't Raphael, another arch-angel, do that back in Season 6 when he was trying to beat Castiel to the souls? Why did Death have to make an Eclipse to open the same door? 

It's been established that Michael is the oldest and strongest of the archangels. AU Michael was much stronger than Lucifer and Gabriel and probably Raphael. Archangel powers were not identical. That explains his trick. 

Last season Michael did things that we had never seen before. Now we know that this Michael had a trick he was specifically given because he was the one charged with dealing with Amara.

And as for Chuck not wanting to release Michael previously. He is a liar and a coward. He didn't want to deal with Lucifer. He most certainly did not want to deal with Michael, the son he most disappointed. One look at AU Michael shows us what happens when he loses his composure and love for his father.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

That still doesn't explain why the demons are so terrified of her now. Making them miserable through manipulation isn't the same thing. We didn't get any sort of explanation as to what kind of power her naked soul wielded (if any), and we've seen many times that only raw strength gets demons to obey. 

Doesn't time move differently down there... she didn't flash eyes though... maybe there will be a reveal that she harnessed some soul power via that spell.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Last season Michael did things that we had never seen before. Now we know that this Michael had a trick he was specifically given because he was the one charged with dealing with Amara.

Except (from 10x23)

Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels, there wasn't nothing. There was the Darkness, a horribly destructive, amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war

It took them all. LOL!Canon

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If they ever remember that Heaven is 'dying' beyond Cas saying it has 'changed', the only logical conclusion is that Michael will return to give it an arch-angel power boost.

I can only fanwank that now that heaven is closed down (I think it's still closed down ???) and Lucifer and the Empty Keeper and, if I remember correctly, AU Michael also, aren't crashing in uninvited up there every other week, maybe it has had a bit of time to heal a little bit? Like a sore that gets covered with antibiotic cream and a bandage rather than being scratched and picked off again and again.

It seemed for a good stretch of time there that every baddie in the known and alternate universe was able to knock down heaven's doors and mess up the place. But it seems to have been left pretty much alone so far this season unless I'm forgetting something.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can only fanwank that now that heaven is closed down (I think it's still closed down ???)

I seem to remember Naomi saying it was closed, but I thought that was to prevent draining any more of their power - they still can't replenish it or create new angels. So unless they are willing to just leave it at Heaven being closed forever, they have to address it somehow.

[Lilyshadow33]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's been established that Michael is the oldest and strongest of the archangels. AU Michael was much stronger than Lucifer and Gabriel and probably Raphael. Archangel powers were not identical. That explains his trick. 

Thanks! makes sense 

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Dean has chemistry with literally everyone. I have seen Sam have chemistry - with Sarah, Ruby, that doctor woman. Maybe with those people it was all heat and lust but with Eileen it's more so he is being slow and tentative? Yeah - I'm going with that. 

I'm going to take this somewhere else, because it's not really related to this thread... likely to "B vs J", because even though it isn't really, I don't want to take the chance just in case it turns into (I really hope not) or gets perceived as such.

6 hours ago, Bali said:

General Ackbar.

Thank you!

I always forget that character's name, and I was too lazy to Goggle it while also doing the post (seems multitasking was beyond my abilities or desire last night.)

[Icarus]

I enjoyed this episode, surprise to me for sure as I really was not expecting to. I guess the fact that Dean and Sam and even Cas were working together just made it gel for me. I am still not feeling the Eileen love, Sam just seems awkward around her and absolutely no chemistry- apart from a friends vibe. The running off at the end I will hand wave cos just stupid but I guess it gets us back to Chuck and his machinations.

There will need to be some really massive reason for the Dean and Cas stiffness, not talking or whatever that is meant to be as I just feel “what the fck” it doesn't make any sense either before or now.

I am counting this as a win though because I am looking forward to what happens next (well I know that is rather stupid with these writers but one can hope!).

I am very tired at the moment and enormously depressed with our UK elections but I need to work out why I found last week boring but enjoyed this week, doesn't make a lot of sense considering I am a Dean fan first and a Dean and Sam fan second but I definitely did enjoy it more.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can only fanwank that now that heaven is closed down (I think it's still closed down ???) and Lucifer and the Empty Keeper and, if I remember correctly, AU Michael also, aren't crashing in uninvited up there every other week, maybe it has had a bit of time to heal a little bit? Like a sore that gets covered with antibiotic cream and a bandage rather than being scratched and picked off again and again.

It seemed for a good stretch of time there that every baddie in the known and alternate universe was able to knock down heaven's doors and mess up the place. But it seems to have been left pretty much alone so far this season unless I'm forgetting something.

Jack the Great was up their too wasn't he before Cas retrieved him... it was such a mess at the end I can barely remember. 

That said one presumes Michael could have a purpose if only Jack the Great weren't coming back new and improved probably. But in actuality Cas probably broke him (Michael) and he will become psychopathic and violent in a methodical manner like his AU counterpart, hopefully in a way that will be useful to the Winchesters in their quest against Chuck.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except (from 10x23)

Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels, there wasn't nothing. There was the Darkness, a horribly destructive, amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war

It took them all. LOL!Canon

Taking to BvJ because I have a stalker.

[Castiels Cat]

16 hours ago, Female83 said:

Rowena and Adam/Michael were the best parts of the ep. Did Michael kill Lilith or did he send her away? 

I am thinking if she were dead her eyes would be burned out and everyone else would be dead too. 

Thst was how those things used to work in a 5 -6 but again we have never seen Michael operate. Perhaps he can be extremely precise and vaporize demons.

Zachariah was a dick. Raphael was too.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

20 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

So not only does Sam get the main mytharc, he also gets a romantic interest. Meanwhile, Dean's only got his now-nonexistent connection to Michael and the big hanging question of his death books that may never actually be addressed. I'm so. Fucking. Bored. 

Amara likes him best... they have not taken that away yet... and... he still drives ... and eats although he didn't in this episode... and he drinks the most or used to... Chuck definitely drank more than him and Adam got to eat more.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[S Cook Productions]

21 hours ago, SueB said:

I really enjoyed that episode.

LOVED:
Rowena, YAAAASSSSSS QUEEN!  And her bodyguards are kickass women.  I’m here for this content.  I hope she’s back again.  Too short of a visit.  She looked positively fabulous.  “Auntie Rowena”!  And still will the “Samuel”.  Such a joy.
Adam/Michael:  I’m glad they came to some ‘arrangement’.  If 4 months was 40 years for Dean, then wouldn’t 10 years be 1200 years for Adam/Michael?  I can see how that would form a bond.  I really enjoyed the approach they used to get Michael to see the truth (mental bond with Cas).  And I especially appreciated the conversation between Dean and Adam.
Saileen:  Totally on board with this ship.  I’m also glad they addressed the obvious issue: anyone they are close to is likely to be killed just for entertainment.  No one is safe, no matter how close or far.  
Lilith:  Toast!  Just like that.  I tell ya, the season is so thick with characters, it seems like there was a shoutout every 5 mins.
Purgatory: PLEASE bring back Benny.

LIKED:
Donatello:  I’ve always  liked him.  Glad he keeps his wits about him and wants to be ‘out’.
Eileen hunting.  Nice BadAss opener.
 

NOPE:
Random Spell of the Week: Pop into Hell, Seal Chuck away, Get spots out of laundry....  It reminds me of Star Trek’s ”Fun with DNA” plotonium.
Chuck: Still not digging this character turn.
VampTrap:  Why all the trouble?  To separate Sam and Dean?  Maybe Chuck is smarter than he’s been acting.

Despite a few ‘nopes’, I thoroughy enjoyed the episode and will be rewatching many times.  

Same SueB. Same. To everything you said 🙂

[foxfreakinmulder]

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That "fight" in hell was stupid. Was there a reason they did so badly against some cheap knock-off demons? Rowena being Queen of Hell and having a grand old times was to be expected. Hey, if Ketch made it down there, he would probably have a nicer time than in Heaven. Just saying. 

Dean being allowed to come off with a smart plan of action and generally being proactive and on the God case? Yay. Much welcomed. The achilles heel line was just stupid retcon, at least thankfully short. 

Donatello was amusing. The way he ran out of the bunker? Most realistic reaction ever. 

That scene with Donatello running out of the bunker with the bucket of chicken made me giggle.

The fight in hell was stupid. Since when can't Sam, Dean and Angel Castiel not kick some demon ass. I did laugh though when Dean asked "is anybody winning?" and I do wish Rowena would've said what if any kind of powers she has.

If they do lock God/Chuck away I think they will need help from Michael, Castiel, Jack, Lucifer, Death and Amara. And maybe Rowena depending on what kind of powers she has. How that will come into play and Sam and Dean's role, I don't know.

[Bergamot]

It wasn't really a surprise to see Rowena, since people had already guessed that she would end up as the Queen of Hell. It actually seems inevitable now that she would replace Crowley -- both in her position as the ruler down there, and in her relationship to the Winchesters, as a powerful, ambiguously evil being that can be counted on for supernatural assistance, just so long as they remember not to trust her too much.

At least Sam doesn't have to feel bad any more about killing her, since she seems to feel as if he has done her a huge favor and given her what she always wanted. Although it does sort of make his angst and depression over her death seem a bit pointless.

But this kind of sums up the whole episode for me. The return of characters that have a history with the Winchesters, whose appearance on the screen should carry with it a deep emotional resonance, but which instead seems to fall flat. Rowena's death was supposed to be a heartbreaking act of sacrifice, but now she's back, and is apparently totally cool with how things ended up. Her return is treated in a somewhat comical manner (surrounding herself with handsome, hunky demons, asking Sam to refill her glass, talking about a lack of Amazon deliveries.) It makes her sacrificial moment seem like not such a big deal after all.

Then there's Adam. Back when the character was introduced, the discovery that they had a half-brother was a real emotional bombshell to the Winchesters. Especially Dean -- I remember how shocked and hurt he was. And considering the importance of family on the show, and the fact that Adam felt his brothers abandoned him to Hell, I expected his reunion with them to be intense and painful. Instead, he was just like, "Hi, Sam. Hey there, Dean. I'm back!" and that was it. I appreciate how mellow Adam was about things, but I felt like the character's connection to the show's history didn't seem to matter much.

As for Michael, I guess it should be surprising that he seemed to have no memory at all of Dean being his Sword, but considering how begrudgingly the writers have always handled that storyline -- like they resented having to acknowledge its existence -- it really isn't unexpected. But also, everyone was talking about how Michael had gone insane in the Cage, and that was not important in the episode either, being dismissed with a single line about how it was just a lie.

It was hard to believe that Michael and Sam had a history together either. That part of the story, about their time in the Cage, appeared unimportant as well, along with any feelings Michael might have had about his little brother Lucifer. Both Adam and Michael were in such good shape, so sane and reasonable, that it was hard to imagine their time in the Cage as being all that bad. It seemed that it mostly served as a time-out which gave them a period of bonding.

Even Michael's reaction to realizing that God had betrayed him seemed pretty mild. Not much wrath there, mostly hurt feelings. Here was Michael, Heaven's greatest and fiercest warrior, reacting to the devastating truth by handing over a spell (the main ingredient being a blossom) and then just sadly leaving. It seemed so perfunctory. I couldn't help compare it with AU Michael talking about Chuck, how the depth of his anger and bitterness was revealed as he said to Castiel, "Because he doesn't CARE!", and how he was going to hunt God down and kill him.

The episode was a showcase for Jake Abel, and he did fine. But the mid-season finale of the last season of the show -- featuring the return, among others, of Adam and Michael -- should have been a real blockbuster, should have gripped you emotionally. I didn't hate the episode, but I didn't feel emotionally involved the way I should, either.

There were a couple moments that I liked and that worked for me, moments where I felt a connection to the show. When Michael, after learning the truth, quietly and forlornly says to himself, "I'm not even the only Michael."  And when Dean talks to Adam before he leaves, and apologizes and tells him that Adam didn't deserve what happened to him. And Adam smiles sadly and responds, "Since when do we get what we deserve?" -- and I thought to myself, "Yes, he's a Winchester, all right."

But otherwise, the episode mostly seemed like an exercise in checking off a few boxes before the end of the show.

[Whodunnit]

When I saw Sam with Eileen I was thinking "Has it been so long that Sam has forgotten how to talk to girls?" 

[gonzosgirrl]

So is Rowena still a witch? Can you be a witch if you're dead? I know Ruby was a witch bedore she died, but she was tortured into demonhood.  I don't think Rowena's a demon, so what is she?

[Aeryn13]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is Rowena still a witch? Can you be a witch if you're dead? I know Ruby was a witch bedore she died, but she was tortured into demonhood.  I don't think Rowena's a demon, so what is she?

I think an OP ghost but they left it all really vague. I mean, she needs some kind of firepower to get the demons in line so likely kept her witch powers. Or all those souls are powering her up indefinitely. 

Gotta say in terms of directing, I thought this was one of Speight`s least offensive offerings. Usually he picks a gimmick of "see, what kind of movie I`m copying and behold my brilliance". There were some weird Dutch angles (for nothing else but close ups of either brother during a normal conversation which is not what one uses Dutch angles for but okay)  where I could just picture him going "this is so brilliant guys" but  nothing too bad.

[Bergamot]

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

This episode gave the best writing and most effort to Michael since, well, ever. As such both Michael and Adam kinda got the strongest material and biggest focus of the ep.

Would have been amazing way back when if Michael and Dean ever got to a bond like that. Oh well.

I know! It would have been so, so amazing! But like I said, the writers seemed to begrudge every bit of attention that was paid to the fact that Dean was Michael's perfect vessel. They worked very hard to keep that story off the screen, didn't they?

One thing I will say for AU Michael, at least he figured out for himself that his father had screwed him. I know that the original Michael was stuck in the Cage for forever, but it was kind of pathetic how he wouldn't believe the truth until it was almost literally pounded into his head. Even Adam seemed to feel sorry for him that he was still worrying about being a good son.

[PAForrest]

23 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I know! It would have been so, so amazing! But like I said, the writers seemed to begrudge every bit of attention that was paid to the fact that Dean was Michael's perfect vessel. They worked very hard to keep that story off the screen, didn't they?

Just think how strong and interesting the Dean!Michael story would have been if these showrunners and producers put even a quarter of that exhausting effort to write FOR Dean!Michael instead of bitterly doing everything they could to work against it. Their decisions will never make any logical storytelling sense.

I remember very clearly in early season five when Michael Ausiello first announced that the plot of the 100th episode was supposed to be devoted to the relationship between Michael and Dean. That was supposed to be the original storyline focus. Then everything changed as the season went on and Kripke bolted halfway through, and we got what we got instead. But I always felt that the original story was supposed to be something akin to what we saw in this episode.

I agree that this episode was all about checking off boxes - that's the literal scope of the entire season. It seriously should have come with bingo cards that fans could download and play along with each week in marking off the obvious whiteboard checklist answers.

[Smad]

I've stopped watching the Season for now and just read the episode threads here to keep up with what's going on but...

Are you telling me that the Chuck problem is ongoing for them and they know it, yet still no one has suggested getting in contact with Amara? I just don't get it anymore, as that would have been one of the first things I would have done if I were them when God broke the world.

[Bobcatkitten]

Question - why did Chuck need the ruse to get Sam? I mean he can zap into the bunker and just take him right? 

[ahrtee]

Well, if we're going to question things:

1. Why did the other hunter contact Eileen if she thought she was dead?

2. She contacted her twice; the first time Eileen said she was busy and call if it got worse.  So, was that Chuck both times (at which point: a. Why did Chuck want Eileen, or did he just assume Sam would come along), and b. That's pretty patient of Chuck to wait and call again a few days (or whenever) later.

3. Was Chuck after Sam or Eileen or both (see (2) above.)  Eileen would have come alone the first time her friend called if she wasn't on "retrieving the boys" duty and couldn't leave the bunker.  Or was he planning to use Eileen as bait for Sam? (if so, see @Bobcatkitten's question above. )

4.  And just in general, the whole hell scene didn't make a lot of sense.  IIRC, Rowena's original spell (the one they supposedly used) brought the cage up from hell to somewhere they could get at it, didn't bring them into hell to look for it.  That's how Dean interrupted just in time/just after Sam said no--he just walked in.  So where did they wind up so Rowena could tell them Michael was no longer there?  

Edited December 14, 2019 by ahrtee
Additional thought.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Question - why did Chuck need the ruse to get Sam? I mean he can zap into the bunker and just take him right? 

That can only be done by every random bad guy in the history of ever. The Bunker is like the Arrow cave on Arrow or Star Labs on the Flash aka the least secure place in history. 

Except for God. He is so weakened, he can`t manage that. Only little stuff like resurrecting beings from the Empty or Thanos-ing Becky and her family. But the bunker? That`s too big, man.

[Casseiopeia]

Can we hope the Levi flower looks like this?

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if we're going to question things:

1. Why did the other hunter contact Eileen if she thought she was dead?

2. She contacted her twice; the first time Eileen said she was busy and call if it got worse.  So, was that Chuck both times (at which point: a. Why did Chuck want Eileen, or did he just assume Sam would come along), and b. That's pretty patient of Chuck to wait and call again a few days (or whenever) later.

3. Was Chuck after Sam or Eileen or both (see (2) above.)  Eileen would have come alone the first time her friend called if she wasn't on "retrieving the boys" duty and couldn't leave the bunker.  Or was he planning to use Eileen as bait for Sam? (if so, see @Bobcatkitten's question above. )

4.  And just in general, the whole hell scene didn't make a lot of sense.  IIRC, Rowena's original spell (the one they supposedly used) brought the cage up from hell to somewhere they could get at it, didn't bring them into hell to look for it.  That's how Dean interrupted just in time/just after Sam said no--he just walked in.  So where did they wind up so Rowena could tell them Michael was no longer there?  

Well Eileen couldn't leave. I assume Chuck wants Sam and he wanted to stop the current Winchester shenanigans so two birds with one bad plot twist.

Taking the rest to to BvJ...

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Question - why did Chuck need the ruse to get Sam? I mean he can zap into the bunker and just take him right? 

Truth be told all he needs is that one shoulder. 

[BoxManLocke]

11 hours ago, Smad said:

I've stopped watching the Season for now and just read the episode threads here to keep up with what's going on but...

Are you telling me that the Chuck problem is ongoing for them and they know it, yet still no one has suggested getting in contact with Amara? I just don't get it anymore, as that would have been one of the first things I would have done if I were them when God broke the world.

I thought about this since Amara's first (and I guess last ?) appearance this season.

- She's the only one who has the power to directly take on Chuck, and she doesn't need some fancy spell to do it.

- It's her love of humanity (and Dean) that stopped her thirst for blood. Chuck threatened to end it all and somehow she didn't even seem to know about it ?

- She still didn't seem in good terms with Chuck. Looks like their reunion was short-lived.

- SAM AND DEAN LITERALLY KNOW HER WHEREABOUTS

But then I remember she came back in a BuckLeming episode and it all makes sense.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It wasn't really a surprise to see Rowena, since people had already guessed that she would end up as the Queen of Hell. It actually seems inevitable now that she would replace Crowley -- both in her position as the ruler down there, and in her relationship to the Winchesters, as a powerful, ambiguously evil being that can be counted on for supernatural assistance, just so long as they remember not to trust her too much.

At least Sam doesn't have to feel bad any more about killing her, since she seems to feel as if he has done her a huge favor and given her what she always wanted. Although it does sort of make his angst and depression over her death seem a bit pointless.

But this kind of sums up the whole episode for me. The return of characters that have a history with the Winchesters, whose appearance on the screen should carry with it a deep emotional resonance, but which instead seems to fall flat. Rowena's death was supposed to be a heartbreaking act of sacrifice, but now she's back, and is apparently totally cool with how things ended up. Her return is treated in a somewhat comical manner (surrounding herself with handsome, hunky demons, asking Sam to refill her glass, talking about a lack of Amazon deliveries.) It makes her sacrificial moment seem like not such a big deal after all.

Then there's Adam. Back when the character was introduced, the discovery that they had a half-brother was a real emotional bombshell to the Winchesters. Especially Dean -- I remember how shocked and hurt he was. And considering the importance of family on the show, and the fact that Adam felt his brothers abandoned him to Hell, I expected his reunion with them to be intense and painful. Instead, he was just like, "Hi, Sam. Hey there, Dean. I'm back!" and that was it. I appreciate how mellow Adam was about things, but I felt like the character's connection to the show's history didn't seem to matter much.

As for Michael, I guess it should be surprising that he seemed to have no memory at all of Dean being his Sword, but considering how begrudgingly the writers have always handled that storyline -- like they resented having to acknowledge its existence -- it really isn't unexpected. But also, everyone was talking about how Michael had gone insane in the Cage, and that was not important in the episode either, being dismissed with a single line about how it was just a lie.

It was hard to believe that Michael and Sam had a history together either. That part of the story, about their time in the Cage, appeared unimportant as well, along with any feelings Michael might have had about his little brother Lucifer. Both Adam and Michael were in such good shape, so sane and reasonable, that it was hard to imagine their time in the Cage as being all that bad. It seemed that it mostly served as a time-out which gave them a period of bonding.

Even Michael's reaction to realizing that God had betrayed him seemed pretty mild. Not much wrath there, mostly hurt feelings. Here was Michael, Heaven's greatest and fiercest warrior, reacting to the devastating truth by handing over a spell (the main ingredient being a blossom) and then just sadly leaving. It seemed so perfunctory. I couldn't help compare it with AU Michael talking about Chuck, how the depth of his anger and bitterness was revealed as he said to Castiel, "Because he doesn't CARE!", and how he was going to hunt God down and kill him.

The episode was a showcase for Jake Abel, and he did fine. But the mid-season finale of the last season of the show -- featuring the return, among others, of Adam and Michael -- should have been a real blockbuster, should have gripped you emotionally. I didn't hate the episode, but I didn't feel emotionally involved the way I should, either.

There were a couple moments that I liked and that worked for me, moments where I felt a connection to the show. When Michael, after learning the truth, quietly and forlornly says to himself, "I'm not even the only Michael."  And when Dean talks to Adam before he leaves, and apologizes and tells him that Adam didn't deserve what happened to him. And Adam smiles sadly and responds, "Since when do we get what we deserve?" -- and I thought to myself, "Yes, he's a Winchester, all right."

But otherwise, the episode mostly seemed like an exercise in checking off a few boxes before the end of the show.

Well as I recall the other Michael did not immediately go off of the reservation in Bobby's oral history. Initially they were on the same side. So Michael may be on a trajectory fueled by anger that is a slow burn to hot violent rage or this Michael has been changed by his time with Adam. Because time in hell passes differently he spent a very long time in the company of a human and they became close companions. He apparently bears the Winchesters no ill will nor did he punish Castiel despite being his superior officer. SO... 

OR the newfound knowledge may drive him insane.

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I thought about this since Amara's first (and I guess last ?) appearance this season.

- She's the only one who has the power to directly take on Chuck, and she doesn't need some fancy spell to do it.

- It's her love of humanity (and Dean) that stopped her thirst for blood. Chuck threatened to end it all and somehow she didn't even seem to know about it ?

- She still didn't seem in good terms with Chuck. Looks like their reunion was short-lived.

- SAM AND DEAN LITERALLY KNOW HER WHEREABOUTS

But then I remember she came back in a BuckLeming episode and it all makes sense.

She didn't have a thirst for blood. She was mad as hell about how Chuck treated her and trying to get his attention. This was a very clear plot point because she said it.

And yes. She made it clear that the Chuck we see now is the Chuck that has always been in her opinion and she is done and over him. And yes. Dean Winchester is her go to human who gave her insight into all that is good and noble about humanity.

Amara would be a great person to have in their corner. However because killing Chuck is not an option locking him away is the obvious thing to do.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

SAM AND DEAN LITERALLY KNOW HER WHEREABOUTS

I must have missed or forgotten. How do they know?

[Lemuria]

59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I must have missed or forgotten. How do they know?

 They don’t necessarily know the current whereabouts but they do know where she was when Chuck first showed up (presuming that they could trust Chuck!): He told him that she was in Vegas. 

 I guess the Dreadful Duo are trying to prove that, no, they aren’t anti-Dean, they are actually equal opportunity dumber-downers by having  Eileen and Sam be absolute idiots at the end of the episode. Not only did they not even appear to suspect that it might be a trap but they also left for an ordinary hunt right in the middle of a considerably more serious and more important situation. 

 I agree with all of the posts that criticized the writing in regard to the fight in hell. When I watched that debacle, all I could think of was a demon, practically crying, saying “It’s the end.  We’re dead. We’re  all dead.“  They really have destroyed the angels. 

[Samwise979]

Huh. Only 2 or 3 other posters liked this episode? I found myself quite enjoying it and I've found this show to be extremely boring lately. The episode went by so fast for me I went to FF the next commercial break and instead it was the end credits!

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

They don’t necessarily know the current whereabouts but they do know where she was when Chuck first showed up (presuming that they could trust Chuck!): He told him that she was in Vegas. 

I had totally forgotten that. But even if they didn't,  it's dumb that they aren't even suggesting they try to enlist her. It's not any more of a hail Mary than going to Hell. 

[SueB]

On 12/13/2019 at 10:33 AM, BabySpinach said:

That still doesn't explain why the demons are so terrified of her now. Making them miserable through manipulation isn't the same thing. We didn't get any sort of explanation as to what kind of power her naked soul wielded (if any), and we've seen many times that only raw strength gets demons to obey. 

1) Rowena absorbed a HUGE amount of souls at the point of death.  Means she had a huge amount of soul power to rule Hell with.  Add the demon allegiance from fear, she’s got all the power.  
2) She likely still WAS a witch, more powerful than run of the mill Demons.
3) She helped stop the Amara threat, helped saved the world a few times, was Crowley’s Mum.  She’s got street
4) Is there any doubt she immediate sent out a call for badass female demons to be her entourage?  I think Crowley surrounded himself with lesser demons to keep control.  I think Rowena has all the power she needs.

Location, location, location: The real Cage was never in Limbo (in S11). That was a construct Crowley built, with Rowena’s spells, to pull Lucifer pseudo-out in order to communicate.  But with the Book of the Damned, I think she pulled him ALL the way out and had spell work conveniently fail after Lucifer started talking to Sam.  The Cage Michael/Adam were in was deeper in Hell.  Ripped open when Chuck ripped open Hell.  Now it would appear that Rowena is not very far into Hell but she’s where Lilith had HER seat of power, so it’s deep enough.  And Cas had just been there with Belphaghor.  

As for Lilith:

She’s the black ash sitting across from Adam. It seemed like not everyone picked up that she’s completely obliterated.

Michael/Adam Hell Time: If it was 10 years up top, it was over a 1000 years together down below.  Plenty of time to work out issues.

[mertensia]

I liked this a lot.  Poor Donatello; he is so not the right temperament for a prophet.

Ruth looked really good, and she's clearly having a blast playing Rowena, Queen of the Underworld.

Continuity! "I remember you called me assbutt and set me on fire" . Heh. Yes, yes he did.fire

I am wondering if Michael hadn't been squashing down thoughts like "why hasn't Dad rescued me from the Cage? " for a few hundred years.

[Bergamot]

On 12/13/2019 at 1:04 AM, tennisgurl said:

I like the idea of a host and angel developing a sort of symbiotic relationship/partnership, its actually kind of interesting, and considering how much they have wrung out of that concept, I can at least appreciate something different. 

Fair enough! And obviously that's what the writers were going for there -- something unexpected and different, and I guess kind of charming.  But the more I think about it, the less it works for me. I don't know if this is because there was not enough time in the episode for them to expand upon their idea, or if (more likely) they didn't bother to think about the implications.

For me it's too facile to just assume that being stuck in the Cage together long enough would eventually lead to Michael and Adam bonding, considering that Adam's relationship with Michael began with acts of duplicity and coercion. I mean, anything is possible, but I find it hard to believe and would need more than we got to convince me that it was inevitable. Or even possible, that two sentient beings trapped together in a little box in Hell would only need enough time to pass in order to come to a state of peaceful coexistence. In that situation I think it much more likely that years of utter boredom, accumulated resentments and petty annoyances would eventually cause a deterioration to a state of stark raving insanity. Call me a cynic, but like I said, I find it hard to believe.

But setting that part aside, at least in the Cage, there were no other options. Now that they are out, their continued relationship seems really problematic to me. For example, you have Adam musing about how he can't go back to college, considering that he has an archangel inside him, and Michael scoffing at Adam's thought that he might want to get a job.Sure, it's sweet of Michael to let Adam sit and enjoy his burger and fries with only a little mild nagging, but I mean, come on, let's not forget that he is USING ADAM'S BODY for himself.

Adam has no bodily autonomy. Dean had to ask Michael's permission to say goodbye to Adam. In their current situation, Adam and Michael can't just agree to disagree. What if Adam does want to go back to school, or find a job, or enjoy a normal life after being all that time in Hell, and Michael doesn't want to? What if Michael decides to go to war against God, and Adam doesn't want to be a part of it? What if Adam wants his BODY back?

Even if Adam is fine with Michael calling the shots, or so attached emotionally to Michael that he is happy to do whatever Michael decides to do, that doesn't make me feel comfortable about the situation. There are just too many unanswered questions, too much potential darkness lurking underneath, for me to automatically buy their easy-going buddy relationship.