S02.E03: Bloodlust

[DittyDotDot]

The Winchester brothers enjoy Dean's new baby: a shiny newly restored car, while checking out a report of two recent human deaths and over a dozen split-open cows in the small town of Red Lodge, Montana.

[DittyDotDot]

I have a love/hate relationship with this episode. On the one hand, I love to hate Gordon and I love Sterling K. Brown as Gordon. On the other, it's a Sera Gamble episode, so I know I'm going to get preached at a bit. The funny thing is, throughout S1, I kept thinking that they should consider that not all supernatural things are monsters, but I just never really care for Sera's heavy-handed approach to these issues--I do give her credit for going there and for creating Gordon in the first place.

 

Anyway, I love the triumphant return of Dean's Baby and is this the first time he actually caller her that? I also find that sheriff to be really amusing. His mustache alone makes me start giggling, but then his whole thing about the cattle mutilations and gravity...I just love it. And I love that they are posing as reporters...from World Weekly News or is it Weekly World News...Hee! I also love some of the badass Dean moments--the kill at the sawmill and his fight with Gordon are all sorts of awesome. I love how it sows in more of Dean trying to work through his grief and anger with John and I like how he tries to latch on to Gordon as a substitute. These are the things that I think Sera excelled at writing, but the episode does kind of grind to a halt when they start having the vampires talk about how they aren't really vampires and blah, blah, blah. It may just be my aversion to most things vampirey that I spoke of earlier, though, maybe I'd just rather not see vampires at all.

 

Lastly, that shot of Dean over the Impala at the end is just stunning. I don't usually care for the way Bob Singer frames his shots, but that one was a thing of beauty.

 

Oh yeah...

did you guys see Benny hanging out in this episode--how'd the hell he get out of Purgatory, was he on furlough? Hee! I had totally forgotten Ty had played a vampire once before on this show.

[mertensia]

When I rewatch this I always skip the first half or so. I find Dean trying to bond with Gordon uncomfortable to watch.

[catrox14]

Heh. I'm kind of the opposite @ mertensia.  I love the stuff between Gordon and Dean. I thought Jensen and Sterling created something special here. I like that Dean is pretty messed up right now, to the point that he is actively bonding with someone as screwed up as Gordon.  Sometimes it's easier to tell a stranger your most intimate thoughts and fears than the people you are closest to.

Edited July 7, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I was always disappointed by how rushed this episode was. The whole arc of Dean feeling guilty and angry after John's death should have been so rich but a string of subpar episodes and heavy-handed scenes got in the way. 

 

Dean befriending and becoming mortal enemies with Gordon in the space of an episode was just a huge waste.

 

I did like Amber Benson's work as Lenore. Ironic that Gamble created her and Gamble proceeded to ruin that with the depressing, pointless death in season 6. 

[AwesomO4000]

When I rewatched this this time, I focused on some of the details I might not normally catch and noticed some interesting things. Although the whole back and forth scene in the autopsy room was amusing, I at first thought it was odd that Sam and Dean seemed a bit squeamish about the head, but I put it down to they thought it was a person so maybe they were more affected. But later, I noticed Jared's acting choice when Dean cut off the vampire's head with the industrial saw... the main emotion he was showing at the end was concern, but at first I saw a kind of yuck in his expression and that was actually a nice callback to his "I'm going to be sick" of the earlier examining the detached head, so I liked seeing that new detail and good job on Jared's part there.

 

Usually in this episode I more see Jensen's acting - like that little moment when Lenore says "no, no" and turns away from Sam's blood and controls her fangs: that change in Dean's attitude is nicely portrayed on Jensen's face and that moment before he punches Sam and I can see that he's going to do it - but this time I paid attention to both and liked seeing the smaller and perhaps subtler things Jared was also doing with his less in emotional forefront part but still giving small details like that "ick" face. And I enjoyed seeing that, and I found in a way that I also like the subtle - and the fact that it's maybe less noticeable - style of Jared here, too.

[7kstar]

 

Lastly, that shot of Dean over the Impala at the end is just stunning. I don't usually care for the way Bob Singer frames his shots, but that one was a thing of beauty.

 I always wondered where that shot came from and today when I rewatched I was like ooh, that's where it comes from.  It is a great shot.

 

Dean does go through so many emotions in this ep and you can almost getting whiplash also Dean as a killer seems to get started in this ep, I should say enjoying killing. 

 

It is almost funny with Dean telling Sam hit me, you get a free pass and Sam turning him down.  It is almost comical and yet really sad at the same time.

 

I did enjoy the fun opening of this ep.  Dean loving Baby is  something special.

[rue721]

So much to like about this episode imo. I love watching Gordon, I find him interesting. He's very competent and very smart and *very* angry. And Sterling K. Brown does such an amazing job.

 

I like the look of this episode's sets/location a lot -- the bar, the sawmill, and the exterior of motel room especially.

 

Another little thing -- the Silence of the Lambs references scattered throughout. Dean talking about the moth in the vampire head's mouth, Ellen saying that Gordon is a good hunter like Hannibal Lector is a good psychiatrist, etc.

 

Dean's kill at the sawmill is scary. How he slowly brought down the saw blade and didn't even wince away or try to cover his face when blood splattered all over it. I got way more about his state of mind from that scene than from any of the more melodramatic freak outs, like him pounding at his car. YMMV.

 

It's also a cool idea, imo, that they ended up accidentally tracking a hunter instead of a monster.

 

Mostly, I love Sam in this episode. He's so sharp with everybody. And insightful. I liked how he twigged to Gordon right away. And when he tore into Dean about needing to get his shit together w/r/t Gordon, he was completely on point and really insightful imo. I really liked how smart he was.

 

I also like Sam and Dean's interactions in general. I liked how Dean was acting exasperated with Sam in front of Gordon, at the bar. Then how his whole vibe changed when Gordon laid it on a little too thick about how he and Dean were two peas in a pod and it was Sam who was the odd one out (for not seeing things as black-and-white and wanting to make hunting his whole life). I thought that was really good writing, too -- how similar that seems to their family dynamic was with John, but that it was exactly that strong similarity that twigged Dean to what was going on between him and Gordon and why it wasn't a good idea.

 

Not delighted with all the punching because it seems kind of ridiculous imo, but since the rest of the scenes were so good, it didn't bother me. I liked how when Dean wanted Sam to hit him in the end, Sam's reason for not wanting to was that Dean already looked like he'd gotten hit too much. I liked that Sam wasn't standing on principle or anything, he just found it really unappealing to kick Dean when he was down.

[Morrigan2575]

Holy Crap!  Eli the Vampire was played by Ty Olsen AKA Bennie the Vampire....that's kind of funny.  I catch that all the time with Law and Order but i don't think I've noticed the recycling of actors on Supernatural before.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Demented Daisy]

It's terrible, but I always giggle at Jared's delivery of "Dad's dead!"  I don't know why, but it sounds wrong.  

 

Got it!  It reminds me of this (skip ahead to about the 2:45 mark):

 

[DittyDotDot]

Holy Crap!  Eli the Vampire was played by Ty Olsen AKA Bennie the Vampire....that's kind of funny.  I catch that all the time with Law and Order but i don't think I've noticed the recycling of actors on Supernatural before.

 

One of my favorite games to play while watching this show the last couple seasons is "where've I seen that guy before".

[Commando Cody]

Hogan's Heroes is one of the shows where they were pretty consistently recycling actors.  

 

I also recently noticed that Ty played two different vampires. I think I realized it the last time this episode came around.  

[Hanahope]

I didn't watch this show the first time, I had too much on my plate at that time, but my niece keeps talking about it and now I can download episodes on my iPad to watch off line, so it's my new commuting thing. 

I love seeing actors from others shows here, like Sterling K Brown. I bet I see Gordon again. 

[bettername2come]

Love Sterling K. Brown and this is the role I first saw him in. I'm also a sucker for a good Kidnapped!Sammy plot and I love that he put up a good fight before he got caught. And I'm also a big fan of Sam being a little shit to the monsters. "Yeah, Eli, that's enough." And speaking harsh truths to Dean, even if it means getting punched in the face. I also enjoy Sam figuring out where they were when blindfolded because he counted. Such a great episode for Sam. Very true to his character - his logic and compassion.

And such great cinematography for Dean and the Impala. 

I like the concept of monsters not always being the bad guy. 

[FierceCritter]

Ms. Late to the Party again. Just started a re-watch from pilot forward.

Dean running Gordon into the doorjamb may be the second hardest I've laughed at this show. #1 being Yellow Fever and the locker cat. I think I re-watched that scene 5 times the first time I saw it.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, FierceCritter said:

Dean running Gordon into the doorjamb may be the second hardest I've laughed at this show. #1 being Yellow Fever and the locker cat. I think I re-watched that scene 5 times the first time I saw it.

And Dean's half-assed" oh, sorry" just made it funnier!

[Myrelle]

On 5/10/2017 at 7:45 PM, bettername2come said:

Love Sterling K. Brown and this is the role I first saw him in. I'm also a sucker for a good Kidnapped!Sammy plot and I love that he put up a good fight before he got caught. And I'm also a big fan of Sam being a little shit to the monsters. "Yeah, Eli, that's enough." And speaking harsh truths to Dean, even if it means getting punched in the face. I also enjoy Sam figuring out where they were when blindfolded because he counted. Such a great episode for Sam. Very true to his character - his logic and compassion.

And such great cinematography for Dean and the Impala. 

I like the concept of monsters not always being the bad guy. 

I could not stand Sam in this episode. My feeling was that, as usual, he thought he knew what and how Dean was thinking and feeling, but he was, in truth, so very far off the mark. And that the punch in the face was so deserved for that very reason, IMO. Dean's relationship with his father was so complex even at this early stage of the show and to this day, remains so very complex and unaddressed in that complexity, for the most part. I keep hoping that they will address it better, but they still haven't, IMO.

So I'm still waiting...

[devlin]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I could not stand Sam in this episode. My feeling was that, as usual, he thought he knew what and how Dean was thinking and feeling, but he was, in truth, so very far off the mark. And that the punch in the face was so deserved for that very reason, IMO. Dean's relationship with his father was so complex even at this early stage of the show and to this day, remains so very complex and unaddressed in that complexity, for the most part. I keep hoping that they will address it better, but they still haven't, IMO.

So I'm still waiting...

I agree. I hate when sam decides he knows what dean is thinking and how he is feeling and then judges him for it when it couldn’t be further from the truth.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't know. It seems to me if Sam was so wrong, Dean wouldn't have punched him. Generally that happens when someone hits close to the mark. If Sam was so off, Dean should've left it at "I'm not even gonna talk about this," added "you're wrong" and walked away.

And Sam had been right the previous episode when he'd said that Dean hadn't been dealing, because Dean beat up poor Baby. I think Dean did have a deep hole of loss, so even if Sam had been wrong about Dean trying to bond too quickly with Gordan to help fill that hole - which I'm not so sure Sam was wrong - I don't think Sam was wrong about that part.

[Aeryn13]

I think that Sam told Dean of all people he was insulting John's memory is what got him punched. And the gall to say that made me angry too.

There is absolutely no character the show has ever introduced that I would have allowed that from towards the one guy who stuck it out with John when he was alive. 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think that Sam told Dean of all people he was insulting John's memory is what got him punched. And the gall to say that made me angry too.

There is absolutely no character the show has ever introduced that I would have allowed that from towards the one guy who stuck it out with John when he was alive. 

I completely agree.

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I could not stand Sam in this episode. My feeling was that, as usual, he thought he knew what and how Dean was thinking and feeling, but he was, in truth, so very far off the mark. And that the punch in the face was so deserved for that very reason, IMO. Dean's relationship with his father was so complex even at this early stage of the show and to this day, remains so very complex and unaddressed in that complexity, for the most part. I keep hoping that they will address it better, but they still haven't, IMO.

So I'm still waiting...

I agree so much with this!

[Res]

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I could not stand Sam in this episode. My feeling was that, as usual, he thought he knew what and how Dean was thinking and feeling, but he was, in truth, so very far off the mark. And that the punch in the face was so deserved for that very reason, IMO. Dean's relationship with his father was so complex even at this early stage of the show and to this day, remains so very complex and unaddressed in that complexity, for the most part. I keep hoping that they will address it better, but they still haven't, IMO.

So I'm still waiting...

I feel this way every time Sam acts like he "knows" Dean because he really doesn't know him as well as he thinks he does and he hardly ever takes the time to get to know him. He just keeps with his preconceptions of Dean and calls that "knowing" him. Then he acts on that. In fact, every time Sam states that he knows Dean, I cringe because there with be some of those so-called Purge "truths" that will follow that statement. 

As I've said before, I know Sam loves Dean but I honestly don't think he likes him that much.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Res

[AwesomO4000]

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think that Sam told Dean of all people he was insulting John's memory is what got him punched. And the gall to say that made me angry too.

Sam didn't say that Dean was doing it on purpose or that he was even aware of it. And as for the gall... Dean had just accused Sam of something very similar in the previous episode. Sam accepted that criticism and admitted that Dean was right and how badly Sam felt about it. Without violence. Dean was still trying to pretend everything was fine and just because we saw some of Dean's reasoning for why he felt he couldn't share, Sam didn't, so it's not like Sam knew that everything was okay with Dean. In my opinion, Sam had reason to be worried. And criticism shouldn't just go one way: from Dean to Sam. Dean could certainly dish it out the episode before, but apparently couldn't take it in return. And if Sam was wrong about his criticism, Dean should tell him so and if not explain his weird-ass behavior, at least say something so that Sam doesn't worry, because obviously the "I'm fine" act isn't working on Sam and Sam is worried. Least Dean could've done was assure Sam he (Dean) wasn't having a meltdown, and slugging Sam wasn't the way to do that.

Besides, I would rather believe that Sam was at least partially right about why Dean was so off when it came to Gordon - that Dean's grief over John was clouding his judgement - than the alternative: that Dean was just that bad at reading Gordon. Which I don't believe. Dean isn't that bad at reading people, and I think the evidence is pretty strong for that. And to my mind, Sam's conclusion as to why Dean would so easily trust Gordon's word over Ellen's - and Sam's for that matter - made a certain amount of sense. More sense to me anyway than Dean just misreading Gordon and choosing to trust him so quickly. We just recently were having a discussion on another thread about how Dean only trusts a few people and how those people had to earn it. Dean trusting Gordon so easily was not his usual M.O., and if Sam had to do something drastic to get Dean to see that and snap out of it... I'm okay with that.

[Icarus]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam didn't say that Dean was doing it on purpose or that he was even aware of it. And as for the gall... Dean had just accused Sam of something very similar in the previous episode. Sam accepted that criticism and admitted that Dean was right and how badly Sam felt about it. Without violence. Dean was still trying to pretend everything was fine and just because we saw some of Dean's reasoning for why he felt he couldn't share, Sam didn't, so it's not like Sam knew that everything was okay with Dean. In my opinion, Sam had reason to be worried. And criticism shouldn't just go one way: from Dean to Sam. Dean could certainly dish it out the episode before, but apparently couldn't take it in return. And if Sam was wrong about his criticism, Dean should tell him so and if not explain his weird-ass behavior, at least say something so that Sam doesn't worry, because obviously the "I'm fine" act isn't working on Sam and Sam is worried. Least Dean could've done was assure Sam he (Dean) wasn't having a meltdown, and slugging Sam wasn't the way to do that.

Besides, I would rather believe that Sam was at least partially right about why Dean was so off when it came to Gordon - that Dean's grief over John was clouding his judgement - than the alternative: that Dean was just that bad at reading Gordon. Which I don't believe. Dean isn't that bad at reading people, and I think the evidence is pretty strong for that. And to my mind, Sam's conclusion as to why Dean would so easily trust Gordon's word over Ellen's - and Sam's for that matter - made a certain amount of sense. More sense to me anyway than Dean just misreading Gordon and choosing to trust him so quickly. We just recently were having a discussion on another thread about how Dean only trusts a few people and how those people had to earn it. Dean trusting Gordon so easily was not his usual M.O., and if Sam had to do something drastic to get Dean to see that and snap out of it... I'm okay with that.

Not wanting to be rude, just that I often don't agree with large chunks of your posts, however I am totally with you on this and really can't see where all the Sam hate in this episode is coming from.  Dean was IMO obviously off kilter and Sam was trying to get through to him. 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Icarus said:

Not wanting to be rude, just that I often don't agree with large chunks of your posts, however I am totally with you on this and really can't see where all the Sam hate in this episode is coming from.  Dean was IMO obviously off kilter and Sam was trying to get through to him. 

IMO to be fair to Dean he was still dealing with his feelings over losing his father and we all have ways to cope with loss. If Dean wanted to throw himself into the hunt to vent some of his anger and frustration then Sam could've let him do that without policing his behavior. IMO he didn't like Gordon from the jump and his approval of Dean's style of hunting was largely what caused his dislike. Ellen's stating that Gordon was a bad guy to be around justified his feelings though since they barely even knew her at that point I don't know why her opinion held so much weight. Bottom line I didn't hate Sam in this episode but he annoyed the fuck out of me. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Aeryn13]

To me the person who was primarily sticking with someone, especially someone who could be a really unpleasant personality like John, is the one person noone gets to tell they are insulting the memory of the deceased. Especially not anyone previously estranged from them.

I have admittedly a real personal beef with that. If it had been Bobby instaed of Sam, it would make me just as angry. And since basically everyone but Dean seemed to have a falling out with John, noone gets to tell Dean that he, Dean, is insulting John's memory. At least I can't accept it from anyone in the show, it's not Sam-specific for me.

[Res]

57 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me the person who was primarily sticking with someone, especially someone who could be a really unpleasant personality like John, is the one person noone gets to tell they are insulting the memory of the deceased. Especially not anyone previously estranged from them.

I have admittedly a real personal beef with that. If it had been Bobby instaed of Sam, it would make me just as angry. And since basically everyone but Dean seemed to have a falling out with John, noone gets to tell Dean that he, Dean, is insulting John's memory. At least I can't accept it from anyone in the show, it's not Sam-specific for me.

I agree with this 100%, not to mention Dean was also dealing with the guilt of suspecting John had made a deal for him.

[DeeDee79]

18 minutes ago, Res said:

I agree with this 100%, not to mention Dean was also dealing with the guilt of suspecting John had made a deal for him.

Exactly!

[catrox14]

For me, Sam was completely wrong WRT to the following:  

 

 

Quote

Sam: "You know, you slap on this big fake smile but I can see right through it. Because I know how you feel, Dean. Dad's dead. And he left a hole, and it hurts so bad you can't take it, but you can't just fill up that hole with whoever you want to. It's an insult to his memory."

IMO, Sam wrongly interpreted that Dean was trying to replace John with anyone, much less Gordon. IMO that's why Dean punched Sam. Not because Sam was correct or had the inside track on Dean's headspace and Dean didn't like it. I think Dean was insulted at Sam's suggestion, not because he was mad that Sam was actually correct here, which I don't think Sam was and I don't think Dean thought Sam was right and IMO Dean was not in denial about his emotions WRT to John.  

IMO, Sam was a bit jealous that Gordon was getting what Dean wouldn't give to Sam and that was Dean's grief process. I don't think Dean was actually that out of control when he killed the vampire.  He got out some frustration, which IMO Sam judged somewhat wrongly.

IMO, what Sam fails to see here with Dean is that Dean doesn't believe he can show Sam his emotions about this because Sam is still his little brother/psuedo son.  I mean Dean literally said that to Gordon,

Quote

'I gotta keep my game face on for Sammy". 

Sam didn't hear Dean say that to Gordon, because he had left and was already being weird about their initial bonding in the bar.  Sam made assumptions based on IMO Sam's own headspace. I think Sam was correct to be worried about Gordon once Ellen told him he was bad news but was flat wrong in that Dean saw Gordon as John's replacement. If that isn't what Sam was implying IMO, he wouldn't have said, it was insulting to John's memory. 

IMO, an inebriated Dean chose to share his pain and worry  with a stranger because IMO it's easier and safer emotionally because it can't really be used against him by Gordon in the long run, not in the way saying it to Sam can and has in the past i.e. Asylum.  Dean was greatly bothered by Sam's words in Asylum even if Sam said he didn't mean it. It was clear to me that Dean didn't believe him.  So there is a lot of things building up to this.

IMO, Sam seemed to need to be the person in who Dean revealed his pain and I think it really bothers him that Dean doesn't here. 

I tend to think that after Sam realized how he missed John and felt guilty and rueful about not reconciling with John sooner, that he's actually the one wanting a replacement for John, and he's wanting that from Dean but he can't see it and he was projecting that onto Dean. 

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam wrongly interpreted that Dean was trying to replace John with anyone, much less Gordon. IMO that's why Dean punched Sam. Not because Sam was correct or had the inside track on Dean's headspace and Dean didn't like it. I think Dean was insulted at Sam's suggestion, not because he was mad that Sam was actually correct here, which I don't think Sam was and I don't think Dean thought Sam was right and IMO Dean was not in denial about his emotions WRT to John.  

IMO, Sam was a bit jealous that Gordon was getting what Dean wouldn't give to Sam and that was Dean's grief process. I don't think Dean was actually that out of control when he killed the vampire.  He got out some frustration, which IMO Sam judged somewhat wrongly.

I agree so much with this. It's exactly how I interpreted Dean's reaction to Sam's statement and Sam's overall attitude.

[Zipper]

I've really gotten sucked into this show. I haven't seen any episode live, but I'm working my way back through from the pilot (second time). There are so many great episodes in S1 and thus far in S2 where I felt legitimately scared about a scene, a monster, a Bender, etc. This ep didn't disappoint in that regard-- spooked me several times.

I don't mind the conflict between the brothers arising from John's death. I'm neither a SamGirl nor a DeanGirl, though I seem to see things through a Dean lens a bit easier; it's work sometimes to see thing from Sam's perspective. I think both brothers are struggling in ways they haven't yet grasped. Acting out from their own grief and uncertainty is totally understandable. The one moment I found myself taking sides was when Dean beheaded the vamp at the sawmill. Sam shoots him this look of disgust that seems totally out of whack with what they know at that moment and the preceding scuffle. Maybe intended to foreshadow, but I ran through my first watch so fast my retention is quite poor.

You all have a great forum here, with lots of informed, invested, thoughtful commenters. Looking forward to experiencing S14 with you live. 

[Res]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

For me, Sam was completely wrong WRT to the following:  

 

 

IMO, Sam wrongly interpreted that Dean was trying to replace John with anyone, much less Gordon. IMO that's why Dean punched Sam. Not because Sam was correct or had the inside track on Dean's headspace and Dean didn't like it. I think Dean was insulted at Sam's suggestion, not because he was mad that Sam was actually correct here, which I don't think Sam was and I don't think Dean thought Sam was right and IMO Dean was not in denial about his emotions WRT to John.  

IMO, Sam was a bit jealous that Gordon was getting what Dean wouldn't give to Sam and that was Dean's grief process. I don't think Dean was actually that out of control when he killed the vampire.  He got out some frustration, which IMO Sam judged somewhat wrongly.

IMO, what Sam fails to see here with Dean is that Dean doesn't believe he can show Sam his emotions about this because Sam is still his little brother/psuedo son.  I mean Dean literally said that to Gordon,

Sam didn't hear Dean say that to Gordon, because he had left and was already being weird about their initial bonding in the bar.  Sam made assumptions based on IMO Sam's own headspace. I think Sam was correct to be worried about Gordon once Ellen told him he was bad news but was flat wrong in that Dean saw Gordon as John's replacement. If that isn't what Sam was implying IMO, he wouldn't have said, it was insulting to John's memory. 

IMO, an inebriated Dean chose to share his pain and worry  with a stranger because IMO it's easier and safer emotionally because it can't really be used against him by Gordon in the long run, not in the way saying it to Sam can and has in the past i.e. Asylum.  Dean was greatly bothered by Sam's words in Asylum even if Sam said he didn't mean it. It was clear to me that Dean didn't believe him.  So there is a lot of things building up to this.

IMO, Sam seemed to need to be the person in who Dean revealed his pain and I think it really bothers him that Dean doesn't here. 

I tend to think that after Sam realized how he missed John and felt guilty and rueful about not reconciling with John sooner, that he's actually the one wanting a replacement for John, and he's wanting that from Dean but he can't see it and he was projecting that onto Dean. 

I agree with this post so much especially the bolded part. Even this early, Sam was jealous of anyone else that Dean tried to be friends with, especially if he thought the other person got to see a side of Dean that Sam didn't. Not only was Sam jealous of not being the one Dean turned to, as stated in the bolded part, he had a bad habit even in S1 of lashing out in anger against Dean and using stuff like this against him. I'm constantly surprised when Dean does confide in him because it seems like better chances than a crap shoot that Sam will use any confessions against him in the future.

[bethy]

This has been such an interesting conversation to me. I had no idea people were so upset with Sam about how he handled things in this particular episode. 

I always read Sam's response to Dean and Gordon as partially right and partially wrong. As most of our reactions in highly charged emotional situations often are. To me, Dean wasn't looking to replace John, but he was looking for someone to connect to in the same way he did with John - through hunting. They've run into this guy who knew John, who said John was great, and in a way, Dean could connect to his father through this man who was as into hunting as John had been and as Dean himself still was. He couldn't make that connection with Sam, because Sam didn't see hunting the same way Dean and John and Gordon (seemingly) did. So Sam was wrong about Dean's underlying motive, but in someways correct that Dean saw a connection to John through Gordon. 

The punch, to me, was about Dean realizing that Sam was right and wrong and both of those things made him want to lash out. Sam was right that Dean was floundering and trying to connect, but Sam was wrong about the role Gordon played in that connection. Not that I think Dean could have articulated any of that. 

I actually loved Sam in this episode. He was trying so hard to keep Dean from spiralling out of control. He wasn't perfect at all in how he went about it, but his motives, in my mind, came from love for his brother, even with all the baggage that came with that for both boys.

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, Icarus said:

Not wanting to be rude, just that I often don't agree with large chunks of your posts, however I am totally with you on this and really can't see where all the Sam hate in this episode is coming from.  Dean was IMO obviously off kilter and Sam was trying to get through to him. 

Thank you... I think? ; ) ... No really, I appreciate it. I understand if people disagree with me sometimes, so I appreciate it all the more that you took the time to post your agreement on this point.

13 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

If Dean wanted to throw himself into the hunt to vent some of his anger and frustration then Sam could've let him do that without policing his behavior. IMO he didn't like Gordon from the jump and his approval of Dean's style of hunting was largely what caused his dislike. Ellen's stating that Gordon was a bad guy to be around justified his feelings though since they barely even knew her at that point I don't know why her opinion held so much weight.

I don't judge Sam as harshly for this as you do. Sam wanted to go on a hunt because that's what John would've wanted as part of his grieving process, but Dean questioned his behavior and made Sam face his issues, too. Both brothers were concerned about the other's grieving process. In my opinion, saying that only Sam was doing it wrong is a bit one sided. As I said above, Dean was fine with pointing out to Sam that he had issues, so in my opinion, he shouldn't be so surprised or defensive when Sam does the same, especially when he (Dean) is acting in ways that concern Sam.

As for opinion holding weight, Dean wasn't just taking Gordon's opinion over Ellen's - which yes, they didn't really know her that well yet either - but Dean was also taking Gordon's opinion over Sam's, and in my opinion Sam had a right to be concerned about that.

With Sam not liking Gordon, I think it was because he just didn't like Gordon's personality more than anything else. Sam also seemed to be concerned about the vibes he was picking up, because he did call Ellen and wanted her opinion on him. Sam had a weird feeling and wanted to check it out. He had no idea that Ellen was going to validate his feelings. He even had been willing to accept that he'd been concerned for nothing when Ellen said Gordon was a good hunter... Sam even seemed surprised when she told him they shouldn't hunt with Gordon - "but you said he was a good hunter." So in my opinion Sam wasn't just looking for validation here. He was genuinely concerned about the vibes he had been getting from Gordon, and that Dean - usually the one who excels at reading people - hadn't also gotten these vibes, in my opinion, was also concerning for Sam.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam was a bit jealous that Gordon was getting what Dean wouldn't give to Sam and that was Dean's grief process. I don't think Dean was actually that out of control when he killed the vampire.  He got out some frustration, which IMO Sam judged somewhat wrongly.

I didn't get jealousy from Sam at all. Sam was mostly fine*** with Dean and Gordon having some down time together, and even left so as not to bring down their celebrating. He even took Dean's ribbing about beating the buzz kill out of him in stride. I thought Sam was being pretty accommodating considering the circumstances. And because he left, Sam had no idea that Dean was sharing his grieving process with Gordon, so why would Sam be jealous over what he didn't even know?

*** I say "mostly" because he apparently got some weird vibes that he wanted to check out with Ellen.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, an inebriated Dean chose to share his pain and worry  with a stranger because IMO it's easier and safer emotionally because it can't really be used against him by Gordon in the long run, not in the way saying it to Sam can and has in the past i.e. Asylum.  Dean was greatly bothered by Sam's words in Asylum even if Sam said he didn't mean it. It was clear to me that Dean didn't believe him.  So there is a lot of things building up to this.

I don't really remember Dean sharing anything that Sam used against him at this point. And even with "Asylum" Sam sincerely apologized for that later in "Something Wicked" once Sam understood the circumstances. In my opinion, with Dean it was more than about not sharing. As you pointed out there was some big brother stuff involved... maybe there was some big brother pride involved, or he just didn't want to deal, I don't know. Because Dean wasn't above sharing some pretty harsh truths with Sam while Sam was grieving and then leaving him hanging a bit when Sam wanted some reassurance, so I don't buy Dean's argument that it was for Sam's benefit that he was keeping up his "game face." That wasn't really benefiting Sam much at all. It was making him worried.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I tend to think that after Sam realized how he missed John and felt guilty and rueful about not reconciling with John sooner, that he's actually the one wanting a replacement for John, and he's wanting that from Dean but he can't see it and he was projecting that onto Dean. 

This had already been dealt with in the previous episode. Sam was trying to do what John would want as a way to make himself feel better, not find a John replacement. And Sam already knew he wasn't going to get much from Dean, because Dean had made it clear that he thought that what Sam was doing was "too little, too late" and that Sam was projecting his (Sam's) guilt onto him (Dean), and Sam already figured that out and accepted it. Dean also made it clear that he had no intention of grieving with Sam, and Sam seemed - to me - to have accepted that, too. For me, Sam pointing out that Dean also was not dealing despite his trying to pretend he had wasn't really that much out of line. And if Sam interpreted some of what Dean was doing wrongly, my opinion is that Dean wasn't exactly sharing anything and was sending some pretty weird - and disturbing - signals... declaring that Gordon's judgement was the one he was going to follow being the most concerning one.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't judge Sam as harshly for this as you do. Sam wanted to go on a hunt because that's what John would've wanted as part of his grieving process, but Dean questioned his behavior and made Sam face his issues, too. Both brothers were concerned about the other's grieving process. In my opinion, saying that only Sam was doing it wrong is a bit one sided. As I said above, Dean was fine with pointing out to Sam that he had issues, so in my opinion, he shouldn't be so surprised or defensive when Sam does the same, especially when he (Dean) is acting in ways that concern Sam.

As for opinion holding weight, Dean wasn't just taking Gordon's opinion over Ellen's - which yes, they didn't really know her that well yet either - but Dean was also taking Gordon's opinion over Sam's, and in my opinion Sam had a right to be concerned about that.

 

I'm not "judging Sam harshly" just because I choose to consider Dean's side over Sam's. Sam's behavior was questionable because he largely picked fights whenever John gave them a decision and suddenly he was gung ho to respect his memory despite how he had acted only a few episode prior. Further, he did so while trying to browbeat Dean into opening up before he was ready so Dean had a right to call him out for it. My opinion is not one sided because I look at it in a different way than you do, respectfully. Also, IMO Dean didn't take Gordon's opinion over Sam's in regards to what they should be hunting if that's what you're referring to. It was largely John's because that's how they had been raised and it was also Sam's thinking before meeting Lenore. We can agree to disagree because I have no interest discussing it further.

[Myrelle]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, Res said:

I feel this way every time Sam acts like he "knows" Dean because he really doesn't know him as well as he thinks he does and he hardly ever takes the time to get to know him. He just keeps with his preconceptions of Dean and calls that "knowing" him. Then he acts on that. In fact, every time Sam states that he knows Dean, I cringe because there with be some of those so-called Purge "truths" that will follow that statement. 

I feel the same and felt this exact way at the time this episode aired. And it's gotten worse for me as time has gone on and we haven't seen much change in Sam in this regard. Tbh, I think that the writers feel that Sam does know Dean better than Dean knows himself-which IMO, is a ridiculous notion when one pays more attention to the performances of each actor as well as, and/or not solely and simply, what's been written down on the page. I think this episode was an early prime example of that. Sam was very unlikeable to me in this episode, but at the time, I felt that there was still time for him to do some learning in this very big regard(Dean's complex relationship with John) about his brother. Sadly, I guess the writers on this show, collectively, never really agreed with me on that. Sadly again, and largely because of my feelings that they still usually don't find anything wrong with many things from Sam's POV concerning the brothers' relationship, I've now lost it completely for that relationship. Others may feel the same way for other reasons, but those are mine; and it started with episodes like this one. But that is a conversation for another thread, I think.

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me the person who was primarily sticking with someone, especially someone who could be a really unpleasant personality like John, is the one person noone gets to tell they are insulting the memory of the deceased. Especially not anyone previously estranged from them.

I have admittedly a real personal beef with that. If it had been Bobby instaed of Sam, it would make me just as angry. And since basically everyone but Dean seemed to have a falling out with John, noone gets to tell Dean that he, Dean, is insulting John's memory. At least I can't accept it from anyone in the show, it's not Sam-specific for me.

I forgot to add that ITA with this post and I also feel that was why Dean felt that uncontrollable urge to punch Sam-and this even if Dean might not have realized it as a reason, himself, at the time. And I further think that was why Sam deserved it, too.

[ahrtee]

I just want to point out that at that time, Dean was not only reeling from John's death, but, more importantly, from the "save him or kill him" order that, IMO, he had no idea how to process.  Dean was looking for something to hold onto, and what Gordon offered was a return to the simple, black-and-white hunts that Dean had grown up with: no worrying about "is this right" or "what should I do?" or even "do they deserve to die" (which is why he *did* discuss that with Sam at the end of the episode--showing that it had been on his mind throughout.)  That was *not* seeing Gordon as a replacement for John, and yes, it was insulting (and very simplistic) for Sam to say that. 

But then Sam brought up the "do they deserve this" and forced Dean to think about it again, and once Gordon admitted he'd killed his own sister because she was a "monster", well, that was unforgivable to Dean, as well as his worst nightmare.  We may not have known John's orders at the time, but we did know that Dean was worrying about Sam and his powers, which would have already put him into the gray areas of hunting (and I'm not sure what the writers had told Jensen about the upcoming eps, so maybe he was already working on that internally!)  

I think Sam's dislike of Gordon was more because he *did* have the black-and-white attitude towards hunting.  And if Sam already had the fear that he was a "monster" and was trying to prove that they were not all evil, as showed up later in the season, then having Dean go along with Gordon would seem a major threat.  

As a younger sibling, I know I used to try to get my older sister to share her emotions/grief with me, because it made me feel like I was important/helping her (even if I didn't recognize that reason till later).  But after she told me in no uncertain terms that "I don't owe you my emotions" and later, that she didn't like expressing her grief to others and preferred to deal with it in private, I left her alone and waited for her to ask me for help, not pushing her to do something she was uncomfortable with.  I just made sure that she knew I was available and would support her.

That's something that Sam, apparently in his entire life, *still* hasn't learned about Dean, and that's what annoys me when he continues to push and everyone gets angry at Dean for "being mean" to him.  One thing that has stayed consistent throughout the series is  that, when Dean is angry/unable to process his emotions, he lashes out physically (from smashing the Impala's trunk to smashing his hand into a gas station door).  Angry Sam prefers to eviscerate verbally.  One difference is that Dean *usually* only hurts himself or an inanimate object (except for this time).  Sam attacks the one who hurt him.   

Dean has the right to his own emotions and his own way of dealing with them, and no one has the right to make him feel guilty about it.  We've seen that, left alone, he *has* turned to Sam when he needed support (as in the MoC) but *not* when he's pushed.  I just wish the writers would stop writing him as "doing emotions wrong."

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also, IMO Dean didn't take Gordon's opinion over Sam's in regards to what they should be hunting if that's what you're referring to.

Then he was misleading Sam by saying he did, because that's what Dean inferred that he was doing (From Supernatural Wiki):

Quote

Dean: What part of 'vampires' don't you understand, Sam? If it's supernatural, we kill it, end of story. That's our job.
Sam: No, Dean, that is not our job. Our job is hunting evil. And if these things aren't killing people, they're not evil!
Dean: Of course they're killing people, that's what they do. They're all the same, Sam. They're not human, okay? We have to exterminate every last one of them.
Sam: No, Dean, I don't think so, all right? Not this time.
Dean: Gordon's been on those vamps for a year, man, he knows.
Sam: Gordon?
Dean: Yes.
Sam: You're taking his word for it?
Dean: That's right.
Sam: Ellen says he's bad news.
Dean: You called Ellen? (Sam nods.) And I'm supposed to listen to her? We barely know her, Sam, no thanks, I'll go with Gordon.

So as far as Sam could see, Dean was being influenced by Gordon. Sam wasn't entirely right about the reasons, but he was also missing a lot of important Dean information, and didn't have a lot of time to change Dean's mind. Dean was intent on going right then to help Gordon kill the vampires.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I just want to point out that at that time, Dean was not only reeling from John's death, but, more importantly, from the "save him or kill him" order that, IMO, he had no idea how to process.  Dean was looking for something to hold onto, and what Gordon offered was a return to the simple, black-and-white hunts that Dean had grown up with: no worrying about "is this right" or "what should I do?" or even "do they deserve to die" (which is why he *did* discuss that with Sam at the end of the episode--showing that it had been on his mind throughout.)  That was *not* seeing Gordon as a replacement for John, and yes, it was insulting (and very simplistic) for Sam to say that. 

But then Sam brought up the "do they deserve this" and forced Dean to think about it again, and once Gordon admitted he'd killed his own sister because she was a "monster", well, that was unforgivable to Dean, as well as his worst nightmare.  We may not have known John's orders at the time, but we did know that Dean was worrying about Sam and his powers, which would have already put him into the gray areas of hunting (and I'm not sure what the writers had told Jensen about the upcoming eps, so maybe he was already working on that internally!)  

I think Sam's dislike of Gordon was more because he *did* have the black-and-white attitude towards hunting.  And if Sam already had the fear that he was a "monster" and was trying to prove that they were not all evil, as showed up later in the season, then having Dean go along with Gordon would seem a major threat.

I agree with this. That last part is especially an important point that would make Sam very uncomfortable concerning Gordon.

And Sam maybe had been pushing, but in Sam's defense, I think that he had learned a little bit the episode before and had appeared to be leaving Dean alone some... until this thing with Gordon. If Sam was passionate for whatever reason - and I do think Sam was maybe starting to worry about himself, too - about keeping Gordon (and Dean) from killing Lenore, he didn't have a whole lot of time to make his argument and was running out of arguments to make. Sam was also missing a lot of information on Dean's part. He didn't know Dean's conflict concerning what John told him about Sam or why Dean might have needed to hang on to a black and white philosophy.

Bringing up John was maybe a low blow tactic, but I think Sam was getting desperate. He'd tried arguing that the vampires hadn't hurt him and that he (Sam) didn't think they were evil and didn't need to be killed, but Dean wasn't buying and additionally Dean had Gordon on his side on that one. So next Sam tried pointing out that Ellen thought Gordon was bad news, but Dean still wasn't buying. Any moment Gordon might be going out to hunt Lenore and the other vampires and Dean was seemingly gung ho on helping him... so Sam might've been wrong in his thinking, and he might've been a bit insensitive in using the John part of the argument, but I think he was desperate to save Lenore and have Dean not be influenced by Gordon. It was for his own reasons, but it seemed to be what Sam needed to have happen. He wanted the "monsters" to maybe be able to be "good" - or at least not evil - and he was running out of time to save them, and he didn't want Dean to be influenced by the "all monsters are bad no matter what" philosophy Gordon had, because what would that mean for his and Dean's relationship in the future?

So basically, I'm not saying that Sam was necessarily right for using John in the argument. I'm saying that Sam was desperate to not have Dean seemingly under the influence of Gordon and for Dean to see his (Sam's) side that the vampires were maybe not evil, because the vampires' lives literally hung in the balance if he couldn't convince Dean. It only partially worked, because Dean still had to see for himself what Gordon was really about, but I understand why Sam had to try to get Dean to see his side even if his tactics weren't the best.

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Then he was misleading Sam by saying he did, because that's what Dean inferred that he was doing (From Supernatural Wiki):

Thanks for providing the text! If Dean decided to listen to Gordon based on the fact that he had been hunting that particular nest for an entire year I have no problem with that. As Sam chose to trust Ellen's judgement ( whom he barely knew ) then it was Dean's prerogative to trust Gordon's. Again, agree to disagree.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Dean has the right to his own emotions and his own way of dealing with them, and no one has the right to make him feel guilty about it.

Excellent point!

[gonzosgirrl]

I think hindsight (re-watch) would likely colour my opinion on it now, but I don't recall thinking Sam was unreasonably out of line to Dean in this one at the time. As others have already said, Sam was worried about Dean, and with good reason. And as arhtee said, Dean is entitled to deal with his own emotions in his own way. This early on in the series though, I just remember thinking they acted like real brothers and being fascinated by their relationship.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

As Sam chose to trust Ellen's judgement ( whom he barely knew )

And his own experiences with the vampires. Sam wasn't making his decision based solely on Ellen's word. If he had been, then I'd agree that, yeah, he was making a lot of assumptions on Godon based on little information. But after actually meeting the vampires, Sam didn't agree fundamentally with Gordon's assessment that they were dangerous and needed to be hunted. I think Sam only brought up Ellen when his own arguments that the vampires hadn't killed him didn't sway Dean's opinion.

Other than that point, I agree that Dean had a legitimate argument and legitimate motivations here. I just happen to think Sam had a legitimate argument and motivations, too... which is pretty much what I've been trying to say.

[The Companion]

This is another spoiler filled thread so I am gonna comment a little blind. I am happy to see a little nuance in the monsters. I suspect the Winchesters have largely killed malevolent beings given that they usually find them based on the occurrence of bad events. Typically we see something like: "there has been a string of unexplained deaths," to start a hunt. They expressly acknowledged that the natural reaper was neither bad nor oustable. That being said, I can see this shaking Dean's confidence. He is definitely a black and white thinker. 

Dean is definitely spiraling and I think it is realistic that he would try to throw himself into work and would look externally to process his feelings.

The vampires worked a bit better for me here than in the prior episode but I still don't understand the scarcity. Is it because there are a lot of hunters? Why don't they make more? Even the ethical vampires could target the sick or something.

[Katy M]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:23 AM, The Companion said:

The vampires worked a bit better for me here than in the prior episode but I still don't understand the scarcity. Is it because there are a lot of hunters? Why don't they make more? Even the ethical vampires could target the sick or something.

I don't know that ethical vampires would want to make more. They have enough so that they had some friends and weren't in complete isolation.  The fewer mouths to feed, the fewer odd cattle deaths and less reasons for hunters to come looking.  And, just because you make a vampire and then tell them to be content with cattle blood, doesn't mean that they will be.

I do agree with you as a whole though.  Those Dead Man's Blood vamps could create vampires exponentially.  There's no reason for vampires to be an endangered species if they don't want to be.

[The Companion]

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know that ethical vampires would want to make more. They have enough so that they had some friends and weren't in complete isolation.  The fewer mouths to feed, the fewer odd cattle deaths and less reasons for hunters to come looking.  And, just because you make a vampire and then tell them to be content with cattle blood, doesn't mean that they will be.

I do agree with you as a whole though.  Those Dead Man's Blood vamps could create vampires exponentially.  There's no reason for vampires to be an endangered species if they don't want to be.

Fair point. The ethical vampire probably doesn't expand but they seemed worried about extinction. Certainly the Dead Man's Blood vampires, though. The scarcity could have been justified any number of ways, but wasn't.

[ahrtee]

It seems like each nest has one "maker" who's their leader.  That was what happened in Benny's nest, and Eli?  the one in Dead Man's Blood; and Lenore was the leader of her nest.  The others don't seem to create more vamps.  I assume if they make their own followers, they break off into a new nest?  So maybe only those who want to become leaders will turn others.  The rest just feed.