S05.E11: Episode 11

[LoveLeigh]

11 hours ago, SuzieQ said:

Why do you think that? I saw her on a talk show at the end of last season and they were prodding her with questions and all she would say was she couldn't talk about it, per the network.  I really didn't get the impression it was her idea.

I replied in DM and in "Small Talk." 

[SuzieQ]

1 minute ago, DakotaLavender said:

I replied in DM and in "Small Talk." 

Thanks so much!!  

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Don't forget, Stacey is a Daddy's girl. And Stacey wrote the novel Montauk. And the entire show "The Affair" has been a filmic adaptation of the novel Montauk.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Stacey in this episode looked a lot like Sarah Treem. Maybe THE AFFAIR is the story of Sarah's childhood. 

[grommit2]

OK...I liked it.  Sad to see this show end.
1) I especially liked the flashmob dance...a highlight of the series.
2) Sasha and the flowers...a nice gesture, but he sent it for Helen, not for Whitney.  That's a d*** move.  Boo!
3) Noah planning the entire wedding, then not being able to join in...that's the second time he sacrificed for others (the first?  claiming to be the hit-run driver).  Of course, he had some really big screw-ups, too.
4) The wedding singer/band turned out to be pretty good, despite Margaret's nasty comments.
5) Grandfather temporarily lucid...an intriguing touch.  And then he made a big splash (ouch) to free the kids to run to Noah.  I think this was a concerted effort by the writers to make this a bit heartwarming...after all that cheating, accidents, drugs (they're still buried out there), etc.
6) Helen and Noah under the sheets...ok, full circle.  Do we assume they lived together, out in Montauk, in the big house.  Did Noah get any money from the movie? 
7) We certainly had EJ figured out.  But the fact that he worked construction on the Lobster Roll as a teen, implies that Noah bought it 15 years or so ago, eh?
8) Noah in the Lobster Roll...I could only tell it was him when he spoke in that distinctive voice. Clever bit of writing. Curious that he stayed open despite the near total lack of business.
9) And the end...Noah looking really, really happy dancing on the hilltop. But, why? He was alone...parents gone, Helen gone, Joanie gone, kids nowhere in sight.  Just the book from his youngest daughter. Was he smiling because he was somehow redeemed?  Because he was able to impart life-altering wisdom to Joanie?  Because he was able to spend the last bunch of years with Helen?  Ahh...do we need another season to explain all of this?  HA!

 

[LoveLeigh]

12 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Noah's the reason that the police never seriously investigated her death (talking to him convinced the cops that she was a depressed wreck who was likely to kill herself), and he claimed to care so much about Joanie. And he knows that Cole spent the rest of his life wanting Ben to face justice. And his reaction to learning Ben killed Allison is to basically shrug his shoulders and say, "Hey, whatcha gonna do?" Ugh, shut up Old Noah.

They never revealed what Ben's alibi was. Plus, Noah never hugged Joanie. He just said something like "it's good to see you Joanie." Plus, Eddie in the future was totally unnecessary. Joanie running to get that rifle was laughable. This entire season's writing was flawed. 

However, I am very sentimental so when I saw the scene with Noah at the graves and then dancing on the cliff I cried. I cried not so much for Noah but because that combined with the final scene of THE DEUCE really drove home hard how we do all pass into "the arms of time" and we will all age (hopefully) and one day be there where most of the people we know are gone. So we either remember them as "ghosts" as did Vincent or we visit their graves. 

So I cried. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[nara]

18 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Stacey in this episode looked a lot like Sarah Treem. 

That could be why she was reluctant to recast the role with an older actress and age Stacey up appropriately.

[Stad15]

38 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

They never revealed what Ben's alibi was.

I thought Det. Jefferies said Ben's alibi was that he was drinking at a bar then went to a AA meeting?

[cardigirl]

I really did enjoy the finale, enough to watch it twice! I was really glad they gave Bruce (John Doman) some nice scenes in this episode. He had been such a bastard to Noah, and then at the end of his life, the old Alzheimer's had leveled him, reducing him to childlike status. He was no longer master of his domain, and I was so moved when he thought Noah was his younger brother brought back to him. In that small scene you realized that for all of his horribleness he had loved deeply and suffered great loss too.  And then, his wonderful, lucid moment with Whitney and the advice about holding on to anger and hurt feelings. LOVED IT.  I highly doubt he ended up dying of pneumonia from jumping in the pool to create a diversion for his grand kids to sneak away from the wedding. And then Margaret JUMPED IN THE POOL to save him too!  Ah love! Ain't it grand.  🙂

I'd like to think that Noah bought the Lobster Roll after Whitney's wedding so that he and Helen could remain close to Bruce and Margaret, and the family would be whole again, but the show doesn't tell us that. Nor does it tell us if Noah ever published again. We just know that he was reading from his daughter's memoir about Montauk, as was Joanie. 

I would have liked to have known a bit more about the rest of the cast at the end, but I'm satisfied with the ending we were given.  If the show could no longer be about the four people involved in The Affair, this ending was good for me. 

Cole (Joshua Jackson) had some great moments last season and I loved the portrayal.  I'm not sure why the decision was made to have his character descend into unending mourning over Alison, but his family's history was sort of like that. So I guess it makes a little sense. Let's hope Joanie's decision to return home and try to make a go of it with her husband will change the pattern. 

What I think the finale showed best, though, was in Helen's speech about how we are here for such a short time and gone so soon, and maybe we should reach for the things that matter. Although, I think Helen was always willing for Noah to come back, Noah wasn't ready to come back until this season.

I will miss this show. One of my favorites. 

[preeya]

9 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

OK, what really bothered me about the gravestones was the birth years & NOT the death years.  Remember when Margaret said she was 73 when Noah asked her if she had a tampon for Stacey to use?  Uh, 1951 doesn't work.  And Helen has said many times she's over 50.  Uh, 1972 doesn't work.  Inconsistent, shit writing, Treem!

Both the birth year and death year was posted. The missing parts were the actual dates (i.e. months and days).  I posted two screen clips of the gravestones yesterday.

[LoveLeigh]

Since Joanie called Luisa "mom" does that indicate Cole and Luisa stayed together? 

[Razzberry]

What was the purpose of having Noah kick in his motel room door?  A fit of machismo, an immediate need to lick his wounds,  a `powerful hunger for Pringles?  It probably just needed a squirt of WD40.

Seems like Noah has always hated doors and has spent a lot of time pounding on them.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Razzberry

[scrb]

4 hours ago, esco1822 said:

In my opinion a much better ending to this series would have been Noah's funeral. I think the same things could have been achieved with his loved ones coming back to celebrate his life. We also would have had closure on what happened with the kids instead of leaving us to wonder about all of them except Stacey. 

My coworker loved the finale as did all her friends apparently. She forwarded this link to me this morning with Treem's take on things and I have to say that after reading it, I hate both her and the ending even more. 

https://tvline.com/2019/11/03/the-affair-recap-season-5-episode-11-series-finale-explained/?fbclid=IwAR0zgUMkSHtno0IUYtOfpzN-6LF8i_qHqYnbA5HOhmkS0tQ4OjUaPnTiXNU

So Treem admitted they didn't have this ending planned from the beginning.  She thought it would be a 3-season arc where they both go back to their former spouses.

She alluded to Noah seeing Alison as this free-spirited, sensuous lover, not the wounded young mother still grieving her son's death in Alison's POVs.

She talked about how peoples perceptions of the same events are radically different because of their past and emotional state.  OK, it was interesting at first.  For instance, after they meet, Noah goes to her house and Cole shows up.

In Alison's POV, they have sex and she's not into it.  In Noah's POV, she is into it and while having sex with Cole, she looks back at Noah with a come-on look.

But the show never consistently explained how these different POVs of the same events affected the narrative.

Instead she goes on about kids inheriting their parents' trauma.  Well Joanie might have been severely traumatized by Alison's death.  But her reaction as an adult was to despise Alison for being a victim, for kind of deserting her because she didn't fight to live, didn't fight to better herself.

She also believed Alison abandoned her to Cole and Luisa.

That is not exactly the same thing as what EJ was saying, that kids who never witnessed or experienced traumatic events their parents went through inherited the trauma instead.  EJ said the Lockharts had all this loss in their family history, probably because the trauma of the parents made the children more susceptible to trauma.

Joanie just had standard feelings of abandonment that many people have.

Maybe Treem hadn't planned on more than 3 seasons but Showtime made her keep making new seasons.  Showtime tends to keep shows well past their sell-by date -- Shameless is coming next week without Fiona.  They also meddle with the original plans of the shows all the time, like keeping Brody way too long on Homeland, because they wanted to keep the romanticization of Brody and what's her name as long as possible.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, grommit2 said:

6) Helen and Noah under the sheets...ok, full circle.  Do we assume they lived together, out in Montauk, in the big house.  Did Noah get any money from the movie? 

The studio definitely gave him a payout to compensate for taking his name off of the film. He may have gotten a share of the profits, too.

28 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I highly doubt he ended up dying of pneumonia from jumping in the pool to create a diversion for his grand kids to sneak away from the wedding.

If the writers didn't want us to think that Bruce died as a result of jumping in the pool in winter weather, then I think it was a disastrous mistake for them to establish that he died within (at most) a few weeks of the party.

If they didn't want us to think the events were related, they had no reason to establish that.

27 minutes ago, preeya said:

Both the birth year and death year was posted. The missing parts were the actual dates (i.e. months and days).  I posted two screen clips of the gravestones yesterday.

I think the complaint was that the birth years don't match up with what we know about the characters - not that the birth years weren't shown.

However, I think it made sense for Margaret to be born in '51. The scene where she said she was 73 was presumably set in 2024.

(I always assumed she was born earlier than 1951, though. And that Helen and Noah were born a bit earlier than 1972.)

[cardigirl]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

If the writers didn't want us to think that Bruce died as a result of jumping in the pool in winter weather, then I think it was a disastrous mistake for them to establish that he died within (at most) a few weeks of the party.

If they didn't want us to think the events were related, they had no reason to establish that.

I think the complaint was that the birth years don't match up with what we know about the characters - not that the birth years weren't shown.

However, I think it made sense for Margaret to be born in '51. The scene where she said she was 73 was presumably set in 2024.

(I always assumed she was born earlier than 1951, though. And that Helen and Noah were born a bit earlier than 1972.)

If Alison died in 2021, I don't think the wedding was in 2024, did they say it was? Granted, the timelines are difficult to follow in the show, but I thought it was established that Alison's death was during a super moon in 2021, I didn't think 3 years had passed between Alison's death and the wedding.  I could be wrong, though.

I thought they were just showing that Margaret lived a long time without Bruce.

[Razzberry]

Hilarious scene with EJ and Joanie

Your mental state is obvious to anyone you come in contact with, Joanie.  Point being Ben never treated you.

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

So Treem admitted they didn't have this ending planned from the beginning.  She thought it would be a 3-season arc where they both go back to their former spouses.

She alluded to Noah seeing Alison as this free-spirited, sensuous lover, not the wounded young mother still grieving her son's death in Alison's POVs.

She talked about how peoples perceptions of the same events are radically different because of their past and emotional state.  OK, it was interesting at first.  For instance, after they meet, Noah goes to her house and Cole shows up.

In Alison's POV, they have sex and she's not into it.  In Noah's POV, she is into it and while having sex with Cole, she looks back at Noah with a come-on look.

But the show never consistently explained how these different POVs of the same events affected the narrative.

Instead she goes on about kids inheriting their parents' trauma.  Well Joanie might have been severely traumatized by Alison's death.  But her reaction as an adult was to despise Alison for being a victim, for kind of deserting her because she didn't fight to live, didn't fight to better herself.

She also believed Alison abandoned her to Cole and Luisa.

That is not exactly the same thing as what EJ was saying, that kids who never witnessed or experienced traumatic events their parents went through inherited the trauma instead.  EJ said the Lockharts had all this loss in their family history, probably because the trauma of the parents made the children more susceptible to trauma.

Joanie just had standard feelings of abandonment that many people have.

Maybe Treem hadn't planned on more than 3 seasons but Showtime made her keep making new seasons.  Showtime tends to keep shows well past their sell-by date -- Shameless is coming next week without Fiona.  They also meddle with the original plans of the shows all the time, like keeping Brody way too long on Homeland, because they wanted to keep the romanticization of Brody and what's her name as long as possible.

I guess the newly tacked on trauma inheritance gimmick was a more in-depth way to psychologically explain why these characters saw the events different ways. These last two episodes in particular really laid on how Helen’s parents made her hyper sensitive to the perfect image she’s portraying—even passed that down to Whitney concerned about the optics. Trevor is more like Noah, wishing his dad was around more, like Noah would have wished his mom was still there and his dad was emotionally present. Suddenly that made Noah want to be emotionally “present” for Whitney’s wedding—even though Whitney didn’t want him to be physically present. Noah also talked to Joanie about how she was the one thing Allison tried to be present for—and everything else in her life was blurred by the loss of Gabriel, and her mom was pretty distant from her, too, caught up in her hippy life. I think that’s why they suddenly “rewrote Cole” to be completely bitter because his family was fucked up, so they needed to “show the trauma” there, too. I think we are to assume that Noah’s memories are the most “true” because he’s suddenly the most emotionally present—as evidenced by him (accurately according to everyone the day of) remembering the dance moves even 30 years later. I think we’re also to assume that Helen and Noah worked through their “trauma” together and had a happier marriage than ever before. Her gravestone was Helen Solloway, though in “present time” she had been going by Helen Butler. We can assume they bought the Lobster Roll and stayed in Montauk to care for Helen’s parents, though Bruce dies either immediately or within weeks at most. Maybe the whole family moves back to the Butler mansion with grandma, and that’s why Stacy has experience enough there to write Montauk. There would be no reason for them to go back to LA. Vic’s gone, it’s over with (whatever) Mann, and their homes were likely destroyed in the fires. After the MeToo scandal Noah may have given up writing entirely to just focus on his family and run the restaurant. But “good things” are inherited in families, too, and that’s why Stacy got his talent, and she’s the writer in the family now rather than it being his book. The one detail I don’t get is how do you run a FRESH SEAFOOD restaurant when you can go a whole week without a customer—and then that customer orders eggs?! The loss of inventory of scallops, oysters, etc as listed around the whole perimeter of the walls—yikes! 

Edited November 4, 2019 by JenE4

[gingerella]

I am glad this mess of a show is over.  That's all I got.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Helen’s speech about feeling like life just happened to her, instead of her being in control of her destiny, felt so off the mark to me.  Sure, many women feel this way.  It’s certainly much more common for women to feel this way than men.  So if Treem is trying to make some feminist statement, well, OK, that’s fine.  But it’s not pertinent to Helen’s character.

Does anyone really believe Helen was floating around like a catatonic zombie, letting other people make decisions for her?  Nah, that’s crap.  Did she accept her parents’ money & all the benefits (& bullshit) that went along with it?  Sure, but that’s cuz it made her life easier & mostly better.  Other than that, I think Helen very much made her own choices & didn’t let life just happen to her.

Now, it’s true she was a victim of Noah leaving her for Alison, but as she said clearly to Noah (last ep), she was proud that she did what she had to do so she could move on.  Doesn’t sound to me like someone who just lets life happen to her.  Again, with the inconsistent writing . . .

[Diane12251]

16 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I honestly didn't give a rat's ass about Alison when she was alive (with the exception of the beginning of season one, before we realized how toxic she was).

And I was fine with the writers' decision to let Ben get away with it in the present day. Psychos get away with killing people all the time, and the world of the show is hardly a fair one.

But I hate that they brought him back to twirl his mustache some more, and then let him get away with it a second time. It was distracting. I was far more concerned with him getting some comeuppance than I was about whether Joanie's husband would take her back for no good reason (snore), or whether Noah would perform a decrepit dance on the shoreline (snore snore snore).

And for Noah to be so blasé when learning that Ben killed Alison, and then brutally manipulated Joanie? He's an asshole even in his old age.

Noah's the reason that the police never seriously investigated her death (talking to him convinced the cops that she was a depressed wreck who was likely to kill herself), and he claimed to care so much about Joanie. And he knows that Cole spent the rest of his life wanting Ben to face justice. And his reaction to learning Ben killed Allison is to basically shrug his shoulders and say, "Hey, whatcha gonna do?" Ugh, shut up Old Noah.

It amazes me how differently people see things.  I don't recall Noah shrugging his shoulders but rather saying that Cole was right, that he always thought Ben had killed Alison.  It was then that Joanie said that wasn't how Cole had framed it all to her, that he always said she was crazy and they were better off without her.  Maybe that's what Cole thought Joanie needed to hear, thinking that he could be everything for Joanie.  He was wrong, obviously, but Cole was probably just trying to protect Joanie as well as himself.  As far as Ben getting away with it, we don't know if he actually did.  Perhaps Joanie and Noah, along with Joanie's husband, worked together to bring him to justice.  We don't know what happened after the show's final scene.

I liked this final episode - not perfect, obviously, and yes there were flaws as some have pointed out, but I think it was a fitting end to this series.  I think the 10 years that Noah and Helen were apart taught them a lot about life, and they both realized that they both loved each other still and decided to give their love and marriage another chance.  Obviously they made it to the end of Helen's life, and I thought it was sweet that Noah was visiting her grave every day and reading to her.  I'm sure what they went through together with escaping the fire and Noah practically saving Helen's life changed both of them.  Moving back to Montauk after the wedding was probably a wise move.  LA was eating them both alive.

Different perspectives - different POVs.  That's how the show was framed, and it's true in real life as well.

[Diane12251]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I'd like to think that Noah bought the Lobster Roll after Whitney's wedding so that he and Helen could remain close to Bruce and Margaret, and the family would be whole again, but the show doesn't tell us that. Nor does it tell us if Noah ever published again. We just know that he was reading from his daughter's memoir about Montauk, as was Joanie. 

I would have liked to have known a bit more about the rest of the cast at the end, but I'm satisfied with the ending we were given.  If the show could no longer be about the four people involved in The Affair, this ending was good for me. 

Cole (Joshua Jackson) had some great moments last season and I loved the portrayal.  I'm not sure why the decision was made to have his character descend into unending mourning over Alison, but his family's history was sort of like that. So I guess it makes a little sense. Let's hope Joanie's decision to return home and try to make a go of it with her husband will change the pattern. 

What I think the finale showed best, though, was in Helen's speech about how we are here for such a short time and gone so soon, and maybe we should reach for the things that matter. Although, I think Helen was always willing for Noah to come back, Noah wasn't ready to come back until this season.

I will miss this show. One of my favorites. 

I totally agree with Cardigirl's comment.  I really liked the final episode, and I'm satisfied with the ending we were given as well.  Things not said can be imagined, and the actual ending is up to us to interpret.  I really liked this show, and will miss it, too.

[preeya]

My final after thought: I'm wondering what happened to Sasha Mann, the movie and his reaction to Helen's reconciliation with NS.

And for the umpteenth time, I still think there should have been an epilogue.

[Diane12251]

4 minutes ago, preeya said:

My final after thought: I'm wondering what happened to Sasha Mann, the movie and his reaction to Helen's reconciliation with NS.

And for the umpteenth time, I still think there should have been an epilogue.

I think the important thing is that Helen made it very clear that she had gotten to the point where she didn't care what other people think.  That, of course, is a gift of age.  Personally, I don't think everything needs to be all tied up in a bow.  We can all decide for ourselves what we think happened to the others and in the future.

[Guest]

How could they NOT have disclosed how Joanie got away from Ben? I mean, last I remember, he had her pinned to the floor looking to cause her harm. And her only reference to this incident to Eddie was, "He had me sign a form I didn't read and the cops believed him." COME. ON. One might think her first reference would be, "He tried to kill me, too." 

Garbage in. Garbage out. 

[LydiaE]

28 minutes ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Helen’s speech about feeling like life just happened to her, instead of her being in control of her destiny, felt so off the mark to me.  Sure, many women feel this way.  It’s certainly much more common for women to feel this way than men.  So if Treem is trying to make some feminist statement, well, OK, that’s fine.  But it’s not pertinent to Helen’s character.

Does anyone really believe Helen was floating around like a catatonic zombie, letting other people make decisions for her?  Nah, that’s crap.  Did she accept her parents’ money & all the benefits (& bullshit) that went along with it?  Sure, but that’s cuz it made her life easier & mostly better.  Other than that, I think Helen very much made her own choices & didn’t let life just happen to her.

Now, it’s true she was a victim of Noah leaving her for Alison, but as she said clearly to Noah (last ep), she was proud that she did what she had to do so she could move on.  Doesn’t sound to me like someone who just lets life happen to her.  Again, with the inconsistent writing . . .

Everything you said is so true but I kind of understand what the character meant. 

Twenty years of being with someone and being comfortable with that reality and then that person, very suddenly, seems to be a completely different person and coldly, cruelly withdraws and you’re suddenly thrust into a new reality.  It makes you wonder if anything was real.  It can create a pretty substantial trauma that could lead to anything from significant depression to derealization.  Some people never recover from that.

Now, add to that trauma poor coping skills like using substances, alcohol, not eating properly, succumbing to inertia. It can really derail your life and you may never feel quite whole again.

Helen is right. No one respects or congratulates you for trying to do what is right for the kids. There’s no one there to help. Any new relationship is muted and tainted by twinges of insecurity and residual mistrust.

I wish that Helen hadn’t settled for Noah in the end but I don’t blame her. She never wanted to be a single mother. The man she loved and tried to rebuild with died in a traumatic way. Maybe floating through life was easier or all that she could manage. Although, it probably doesn’t make a person feel so great about herself.

[Diane12251]

12 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

How could they NOT have disclosed how Joanie got away from Ben? I mean, last I remember, he had her pinned to the floor looking to cause her harm. And her only reference to this incident to Eddie was, "He had me sign a form I didn't read and the cops believed him." COME. ON. One might think her first reference would be, "He tried to kill me, too." 

Garbage in. Garbage out. 

She went back with the police, and he used that form against her.  They believed him.

2 minutes ago, LydiaE said:

Everything you said is so true but I kind of understand what the character meant. 

Twenty years of being with someone and being comfortable with that reality and then that person, very suddenly, seems to be a completely different person and coldly, cruelly withdraws and you’re suddenly thrust into a new reality.  It makes you wonder if anything was real.  It can create a pretty substantial trauma that could lead to anything from significant depression to derealization.  Some people never recover from that.

Now, add to that trauma poor coping skills like using substances, alcohol, not eating properly, succumbing to inertia. It can really derail your life and you may never feel quite whole again.

Helen is right. No one respects or congratulates you for trying to do what is right for the kids. There’s no one there to help. Any new relationship is muted and tainted by twinges of insecurity and residual mistrust.

I wish that Helen hadn’t settled for Noah in the end but I don’t blame her. She never wanted to be a single mother. The man she loved and tried to rebuild with died in a traumatic way. Maybe floating through life was easier or all that she could manage. Although, it probably doesn’t make a person feel so great about herself.

I don't think she settled.  She still loved him, and he still loved her.  I may be a hopeful romantic, but I liked what the got back together in the end.

[LibertarianSlut]

22 hours ago, T Summer said:

Yes! Cole would have NEVER told Joanie they were better off without her(Alison)! Did I actually hear that? I'm going to have to listen to that closely when I re-watch the episode.

I too, will miss discussing the series with you all! I was reading a season 2 thread looking for something and ran across  Sturm und Drang* and had to look that  up.

I'm conflicted about this finale. I got teary-eyed during the Helen / Noah scenes which I guess is because the actors are just so damned good. I've always wanted better for Helen and have never  believed exes who've gotten to this point would  make their way back to each other. I have a feeling when I watch it again it's going to anger me more. Just like last week.

I also agree that Alison seemed like the one who often didn't seem present in the moment rather than Helen.

The timeline stuff drives me  batty too, so I've decided not to waste my time trying to figure it out.  I thought of Noah saying there was a month to plan the wedding, then  Furcat asked Whitney what were you doing in Montauk in December. Colin's mum was arriving at 10? (or was it 9?). So was that a.m. or p.m.? Because in January I'm pretty sure  it's dark between 4:30 and 5:30 in the afternoon in Montauk.

A poster here pointed out to me the other day that Alison is supposed to have died in 2021. However I always thought Noah's prison sentence was 3 years.  Was it actually 5? All of this just makes my head hurt and it never ends up making sense.

I can't believe how much I used to enjoy True Blood with Anna Pacquin. I enjoyed her in a movie set in the 70's called Free Ride and Almost Famous has long been a favorite of mine, but  I'm sorry,  she is awful in this.The whole Joanie the coastal engineer  her  family and the look into the future as as well  grown up Eddie (E.J.)  and the Ben nonsense added nothing to this series as far as I'm concerned.

Also Libertarianslut you are so right;  the whole Janelle / Carl story line didn't need to take up so much of this last season of The Affair  Spin them off or something because they were just as  compelling as other characters   we see on TV, but it all just seemed weirdly out of place here...just as so many other random  characters and incomplete story lines did. Plus  their story wasn't done any justice or  resolved here anyway.

Being as it was part of the season, I can accept Joanie receiving  info from E.J. just a little bit easier now knowing he spent some time living in Montauk and working for Noah. I was never going to buy Helen his next door neighbor in California whiling away the hours talking to little E.J. about Alison and Alison's  first in-laws meaning Cole's family. Even if Noah ended up moving into Helen's house,  by the time E.J. gets to the age to be reading novels  I just don't see E.J. becoming obsessed with Lana the the  character based on Alison and her supposedly traumatic life. Though it still doesn't explain why he was hanging out in the cemetery.

I don't like that Noah ended his days walking around the Lobster Roll where he met Alison. It does almost seem like some sort of slight to Helen and a tribute  to Alison.

Risking an old man with dementia getting pneumonia or worse, drowning was ridiculous.

It would have been a very different wedding if I was  writing this show. As soon as Whitney answered Helen's question why am I here ... if this is how you feel about me? with "awp tics it would have looked terrible. I didn't want any empty seats" . I, the videographer would have been long GONE!  and I'd  have taken my dress with me! Whitney's personality is trash start to finish! I give poor Colin 6 months.

Why was Sierra there with  her director as her plus one? Did we ever hear Sierra and Whitney exchange so much as one word? Was she there because they all had to escape the Ca. wild fires? If so where was little Eddie?

*a late 18th century German literary movement characterized by works containing rousing action and high emotionalism that often deal with the individual's revolt against society. [in German it literally means storm and stress]

Can I just say I love this post.  When EJ was explaining that he and his mom stayed out in Montauk with Helen, I figured the Solloway clan had moved back east because of Bruce's dementia, which Margaret was urging for a couple of episodes over the season.  It would have been more interesting to see a future Bruce, Margaret, Noah, Helen, Stacey, and various other characters rotating through the house circa 2035 than the Joanie crap circa 2060.

17 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I honestly didn't give a rat's ass about Alison when she was alive (with the exception of the beginning of season one, before we realized how toxic she was).

And I was fine with the writers' decision to let Ben get away with it in the present day. Psychos get away with killing people all the time, and the world of the show is hardly a fair one.

But I hate that they brought him back to twirl his mustache some more, and then let him get away with it a second time. It was distracting. I was far more concerned with him getting some comeuppance than I was about whether Joanie's husband would take her back for no good reason (snore), or whether Noah would perform a decrepit dance on the shoreline (snore snore snore).

And for Noah to be so blasé when learning that Ben killed Alison, and then brutally manipulated Joanie? He's an asshole even in his old age.

Noah's the reason that the police never seriously investigated her death (talking to him convinced the cops that she was a depressed wreck who was likely to kill herself), and he claimed to care so much about Joanie. And he knows that Cole spent the rest of his life wanting Ben to face justice. And his reaction to learning Ben killed Allison is to basically shrug his shoulders and say, "Hey, whatcha gonna do?" Ugh, shut up Old Noah.

I agree that it's neither here nor there for me whether Ben killed Alison--I was fine with the way they left it season 4--but why bring us into the future with a pompous Ben and a nothing-to-lose Noah, only for Noah not to kill Ben, but to hike to the top of a hill to dance, because, love?  I mean...

[Mommaj]

Signing on to ALL the critiques here. I hate watched the whole season, but hated the finale most of all. I'll add this comment, which I don't think was made yet (though I may have missed it); Who has an outdoor wedding ceremony AND reception when it's 41 degrees outside??? And by the water it would have felt even colder. I mean, I can kinda of see wanting a romantic setting for a brief ceremony, but then why didn't everyone move inside for food, drink, and dancing? Surely that huge house could accommodate 60 guests. And if the producers wanted an outdoor setting, why not push the whole wedding story into a warmer month entirely? 

Another thing: Why was Noah teaching the dance? Is choreography a skill of his we somehow never learned about before now?

On to EJ. First of all, no way two good looking people like Sierra and Vik would have produced a shlubby looking guy like that. What dopey casting. Second, why was it important to the story to have him in Montauk at all? Joanie could have hooked up with any random guy in town (as was her habit) who could have helped her solve the mystery of her mother's death. As for his supposed expertise in inherited trauma--what a crock, and an unnecessary crock at that. So Joanie was a mess because her parents DNA was forever damaged by Gabriel's death? Really? It wasn't enough trauma for a child that her mother left her for six months and then soon after left her permanently? We needed the medical gobbledygook? And how did EJ end up spending so much of his life in Montauk in the first place? Did Sierra just give up her acting career and follow Helen there when she reconciled with Noah? Was Sierra waitressing at the Lobster Roll? 

And lastly: At what point in his life did Noah decide to manage a restaurant, and what was he doing before that? (I'd think the Me Too accusations would have put a damper on his teaching career.) Was it while Helen was still alive? How thrilled would she have been to get involved with a location that saw the beginning of the destruction of her marriage! And why was Noah managing an empty restaurant in a town now devoid of tourists, living away from any of his children? Is there still lobster on the menu? Honestly, I laughed my head off when I realized the old coot was Noah. 

Dumb plotting makes for a lot of questions...Sigh. This show started out so spectacularly. it was painful to have it end with a whimper.

Oh, and one more thing: Helen made some comment about what it was like when they were poor and had four young kids. When were they ever poor??? They has that gorgeous brownstone which, if I'm not mistaken, was a gift from daddy, and Noah was gainfully employed as a teacher. So no housing cost, and a steady income. Not poor. Also, the kids were spaced pretty far apart. It's not like Helen was buried in diapers and pacifiers for years. She was free enough to run her hobby business (while she could have had a real job, if they were so poor). Aargh.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Mommaj

[scrb]

28 minutes ago, Mommaj said:

As for his supposed expertise in inherited trauma--what a crock, and an unnecessary crock at that. So Joanie was a mess because her parents DNA was forever damaged by Gabriel's death? Really? It wasn't enough trauma for a child that her mother left her for six months and then soon after left her permanently? We needed the medical gobbledygook?

Treem really believes in inherited trauma, if you read that TVLine interview. y

I'm not even going to bother Googling epigeneticism.

Remember the therapy that Ben does on Alison, the EDMR?

These are probably real things but the writers must be really into therapy, believe in these fringe ideas.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, scrb said:

Treem really believes in inherited trauma

I have inherited trauma from watching this show for five seasons.

[scrb]

Yeah Helen ruled the roost, which may have been one reason Noah was looking around,

Remember how they portrayed their college years.  She could have had anyone but she chose him, as if it was some great honor she bestowed on him -- well her parents money did take away a lot of pressure from him.  She didn't have to do these chatty rationalizations for getting with Noah, like she did in that Memory Motel room before they got it on.

It wasn't long after Noah left her that Helen got attention and affirmation from other men.

[WaltersHair]

I re-watched to make I did like the ending and it wasn't some emotional response to it being the last episode. I still really liked the series, as strange and uneven as it was, but so is life I suppose.

I did want Helen to come clean to SOMEONE that she was the one who killed Scotty. For a show where two murders occur, it seems odd how bloodless the series in general felt.
 

I'm okay with Helen and Noah getting back together. I know of no less than three people who knew each other from high school, broke up and then re connected via facebook (the boomer book). At least two have gotten married since then.

The Joanie and Eddie storyline was superfluous. I think someone here said Joanie was to fill Allison's shoes for the ending, but I would rather have had more closure with the other characters.

I have to weigh in on the 'inherited trauma thing'. This is pre-Darwinian thinking. It's like saying if I come from a long line of dark haired people and consistently dye my hair blond, then my offspring will have a propensity for lighter hair. Last I checked, hair dye does not change DNA (I hope).

I did like the idea of eventual forgiveness and Noah alone on the bluff at the end. I will miss this show.

Edited November 5, 2019 by WaltersHair

[ScoobieDoobs]

Man, I just hate what Treem did to the character of Alison.  She killed her off in such a sudden & awful & brutal way — and then never even brought her killer to justice.  That sucks!  Why’d Treem do this?  Revenge on Ruth for bailing on the show?  Sure, Alison was a maddening mess, but I found the character interesting to watch.

Eh, I hated the stuff with old Noah.  This ending reminded me slightly of the end of Six Feet Under, where the main characters’ deaths (& old age) were shown in the last few minutes — which was eerie & creepy, but it worked for that show.  Here it was meh.

[SuzieQ]

2 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Eh, I hated the stuff with old Noah.  This ending reminded me slightly of the end of Six Feet Under, where the main characters’ deaths (& old age) were shown in the last few minutes — which was eerie & creepy, but it worked for that show.  Here it was meh.

The difference is that in Six Feet Under, it was brilliant and well done.  Here it was a fittingly stupid end to a horrible finale.

Edited November 5, 2019 by SuzieQ

[Razzberry]

More on the abused Memory Motel - apparently it's a real place with quite a past, according to Wiki:

"1975–1976 – The Rolling Stones stayed at Andy Warhol's estate in Montauk when they were on tour in 1975-76. The Memory Motel was said to be the only place in the area, at the time, with a pool table and a piano, and the Stones were said to hang out at the bar. The song "Memory Motel" was written during this period."

"Memory Motel" by the Stones on YouTube

Edited November 5, 2019 by Razzberry

[T Summer]

8 hours ago, LydiaE said:

Everything you said is so true but I kind of understand what the character meant. 

Twenty years of being with someone and being comfortable with that reality and then that person, very suddenly, seems to be a completely different person and coldly, cruelly withdraws and you’re suddenly thrust into a new reality.  It makes you wonder if anything was real.  It can create a pretty substantial trauma that could lead to anything from significant depression to derealization.  Some people never recover from that.

Now, add to that trauma poor coping skills like using substances, alcohol, not eating properly, succumbing to inertia. It can really derail your life and you may never feel quite whole again.

Helen is right. No one respects or congratulates you for trying to do what is right for the kids. There’s no one there to help. Any new relationship is muted and tainted by twinges of insecurity and residual mistrust.

I wish that Helen hadn’t settled for Noah in the end but I don’t blame her. She never wanted to be a single mother. The man she loved and tried to rebuild with died in a traumatic way. Maybe floating through life was easier or all that she could manage. Although, it probably doesn’t make a person feel so great about herself.

I hate that she settled for Noah too.

I just thought of something... Noah would likely be haunted  by doubts about how he measured up   to Vik. He'd wonder whether Helen would really have chosen him  and gotten back with him if Vikram were still alive.  Noah would  have a turn experiencing the same kind of hurt and self doubt Helen described on the way out of the canyon.

His own children shunned him  because of what he'd done to the family and preferred to spend time with handsome young Vikram the doctor. I was kind of surprised in Vikram's recorded parting words to the Solomanders he said he'd been in their lives 8 years.

That damned timeline again

Edited November 5, 2019 by T Summer
left something out

[Milburn Stone]

17 hours ago, scrb said:

So Treem admitted they didn't have this ending planned from the beginning.  She thought it would be a 3-season arc where they both go back to their former spouses.

The only thing I take issue with in your post (from which I excerpted this quote) is the word "admitted." There's a hint of the pejorative in that word--a hint that Treem is confessing to something slightly shame-worthy. I'd have no issue if the word were "said" rather than "admitted."

Because all art is based on limitations. No matter what the art form. You only have until August to finish your symphony, because the concert is on the schedule for September. You're poor and you can only afford a few oil paints, so you have to make those work for your canvas. Your publisher tells you that you have to bring in your manuscript under 300 pages. Your show is so popular that the network orders more seasons, and then a cast member leaves.

It's what you do within those limitations, how you adjust to the necessary constraints that happen over time, that determines how good the art is.

[poeticlicensed]

So now we should explain away everyone's shitty behavior as "inherited trauma"? No one is actually responsible for the crappy things they do? Noah had a shitty childhood, so he's a forgivable asshole. Whitney witnessed her parents shitty breakup, so her beasty behavior  is o-ok.

Sometimes, people are just assholes, period. 

I do find it admirable that they managed to make 5 seasons float with nearly all the characters being unlikeable to some degree, some more than others. 

[MaggieG]

21 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I really did enjoy the finale, enough to watch it twice! I was really glad they gave Bruce (John Doman) some nice scenes in this episode. He had been such a bastard to Noah, and then at the end of his life, the old Alzheimer's had leveled him, reducing him to childlike status. He was no longer master of his domain, and I was so moved when he thought Noah was his younger brother brought back to him. In that small scene you realized that for all of his horribleness he had loved deeply and suffered great loss too.  And then, his wonderful, lucid moment with Whitney and the advice about holding on to anger and hurt feelings. LOVED IT.  I highly doubt he ended up dying of pneumonia from jumping in the pool to create a diversion for his grand kids to sneak away from the wedding. And then Margaret JUMPED IN THE POOL to save him too!  Ah love! Ain't it grand.  🙂

Is it crazy that I enjoyed Bruce the most during this episode? I loved him dancing along on the sidelines during the flash mob.

[Stad15]

14 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Man, I just hate what Treem did to the character of Alison.  She killed her off in such a sudden & awful & brutal way — and then never even brought her killer to justice.  That sucks!  Why’d Treem do this?  Revenge on Ruth for bailing on the show?  Sure, Alison was a maddening mess, but I found the character interesting to watch.

Eh, I hated the stuff with old Noah.  This ending reminded me slightly of the end of Six Feet Under, where the main characters’ deaths (& old age) were shown in the last few minutes — which was eerie & creepy, but it worked for that show.  Here it was meh.

Sarah Treem said nobody on the show pays for their crimes.  Which is actually true when you think about it.  Cole/drug dealing, Helen/Scotty murder, Luisa/undocumented, Cole/arson, Ben/Alison's murder....all didn't get arrested or brought to justice.

[Diane12251]

16 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I re-watched to make I did like the ending and it wasn't some emotional response to it being the last episode. I still really liked the series, as strange and uneven as it was, but so is life I suppose.

I did want Helen to come clean to SOMEONE that she was the one who killed Scotty. For a show where two murders occur, it seems odd how bloodless the series in general felt.

I'm okay with Helen and Noah getting back together. I know of no less than three people who knew each other from high school, broke up and then re connected via facebook (the boomer book). At least two have gotten married since then.

The Joanie and Eddie storyline was superfluous. I think someone here said Joanie was to fill Allison's shoes for the ending, but I would rather have had more closure with the other characters.

I have to weigh in on the 'inherited trauma thing'. This is pre-Darwinian thinking. It's like saying if I come from a long line of dark haired people and consistently dye my hair blond, then my offspring will have a propensity for lighter hair. Last I checked, hair dye does not change DNA (I hope).

I did like the idea of eventual forgiveness and Noah alone on the bluff at the end. I will miss this show.

Helen did "come clean" to some people that she was the one who killed Scotty.  She told Vik -- and then later, she also told her parents (with Margaret yelling frantically at her to never say that again).  

I don't think "inherited trauma" has anything to do with someone dying their hair blond and somehow passing on to their descendants a propensity for lighter hair.  "Inherited trauma" has to do with traumatic events in people's lives like death, suicide, serious injury, and so on.  The fact that Joanie thought Alison had committed suicide had affected her life deeply, so that trauma had been passed on to her.  

I, too, liked the ending with Noah alone on the bluff.  All in all, I liked the finale - didn't tie up all the loose ends, but that's okay with me.  

[ScoobieDoobs]

16 minutes ago, Stad15 said:

Sarah Treem said nobody on the show pays for their crimes.  Which is actually true when you think about it.  Cole/drug dealing, Helen/Scotty murder, Luisa/undocumented, Cole/arson, Ben/Alison's murder....all didn't get arrested or brought to justice.

OK, that’s interesting.  Well, at least Treem was very consistent with this.  I think she’s wrong about it cuz some may get away with crimes, but many others get caught.  It’s a cynical POV that I don’t agree with.

And Treem was also consistent about this life-goes-full-circle stuff.  But that’s her POV.  I’m proof that life doesn’t have to be that way at all.  I left my hometown over 30 years ago & have had zero contact with friends or family from there & been doing just fine & have no interest in ever going back.

Idk, this stuff with Noah returning to where his life changed so drastically & then him being this wise old man?  Left me cold.

Treem (in an interview) made the point that some actions have consequences that last generations.  An interesting point — and one she was trying to make with the affair of Noah & Alison.

I like Helen & Noah getting back together.  But I wasn’t really buying Noah’s redemption & his new routine as a saint.  And the kids hanging outside the motel room (while they knew their parents were having sex) was odd.  Who the fuck would EVER do that?  You lost me with that weird bit, Treem.

[ScoobieDoobs]

4 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

So now we should explain away everyone's shitty behavior as "inherited trauma"? No one is actually responsible for the crappy things they do? Noah had a shitty childhood, so he's a forgivable asshole. Whitney witnessed her parents shitty breakup, so her beasty behavior  is o-ok.

Sometimes, people are just assholes, period. 

I do find it admirable that they managed to make 5 seasons float with nearly all the characters being unlikeable to some degree, some more than others. 

Well, don't look to me to defend Treem's choices cuz I'm one of her biggest critics, but this one I think she got right.  I don't think it's about explaining away anyone's behavior or making excuses for it.  But maybe it's interesting to be aware of where the behavior derives from.  Does it mean anything in the end or will it motivate anyone to change?  Probably not. 

As Helen said casually that Margaret was a monster, it made me realize (and wonder why I hadn't before) that Whitney is just as big of a monster, and yet Helen certainly isn't.  Is Whitney the way she is cuz of genetics (maybe the Butler monstrousness skips a generation?) -- or is it due to circumstances?  Interesting question, but probably pointless.

So is Whitney an asshole, or is Martin gloomy & glum, & Trevor, a pensive big nothing & Stacey, a sweet upbeat girl cuz Noah left Helen for Alison when they were little?  Maybe or maybe not.  They might have had these personalities if Noah stuck around.  So what's my point?  That Treem turned Noah into a babbling old man who seems to think he's wise.  He's not.  He's just a babbling old man.

[Blakeston]

21 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

It amazes me how differently people see things.  I don't recall Noah shrugging his shoulders but rather saying that Cole was right, that he always thought Ben had killed Alison.  It was then that Joanie said that wasn't how Cole had framed it all to her, that he always said she was crazy and they were better off without her.  Maybe that's what Cole thought Joanie needed to hear, thinking that he could be everything for Joanie.  He was wrong, obviously, but Cole was probably just trying to protect Joanie as well as himself.  As far as Ben getting away with it, we don't know if he actually did.  Perhaps Joanie and Noah, along with Joanie's husband, worked together to bring him to justice.  We don't know what happened after the show's final scene.

I'm not saying that Noah literally shrugged his shoulders. I'm saying that Noah's reaction to finding out his ex-wife was murdered by someone who continues to live happily in the community was shockingly calm. I can't even fathom learning something like that, and then pleasantly discussing about other subjects. 

If a psychopath ever murders me and then fucks with my child the way Ben fucked with Joanie, then I certainly hope that anyone who was close to me who learns the truth can muster up more anger than that.

Question - can someone help me with the timeline? How did we know that the finale was 2024?

[PrincessPurrsALot]

The issue of inherited trauma is interesting because EJ seemed to be positing that Alison's trauma of losing a son was passed on genetically to Joanie.  Clearly our own early life experiences affect us which if different than the argument posed.  Joanie was impacted by the belief that her mother was mentally ill and committed suicide. she was further impacted by her father's reactions to this, Alison having left her with Cole and Luisa when she sought help, early years with Noah who she then did not see, Cole and Luisa breaking up, etc.  So Joanie had many traumatic events in her early years.  Do I think she inherited some genetic change that happened to Alison based on her trauma?  Nope.  But Joanie did have a messed up early life.  Doesn't explain the perma-scowl but it does explain her problems getting close to her children, coldness in interactions, fear over becoming the same age Alison was when she died, etc. 

As for the Solloways, I would expect the kids to be impacted by their parents divorce.  It is part of their childhood.  Each child was a different age and had a different level of impact.  However that impact is also based on who they each were as people when this happened.  For Whitney, she seems to not trust in relationships.  At the same time, we were never given a positive view of Whitney so it's hard to say what impact was from the affair/divorce and what is just Whit at her whiny, entitled best.

But yeah, hanging out in a cold parking lot eating cake and drinking champagne while your parents boff is very odd behavior.  That's a visual I could have done without.

[LoveLeigh]

16 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Man, I just hate what Treem did to the character of Alison.  She killed her off in such a sudden & awful & brutal way — and then never even brought her killer to justice.  That sucks!  Why’d Treem do this?  Revenge on Ruth for bailing on the show?  Sure, Alison was a maddening mess, but I found the character interesting to watch.

Eh, I hated the stuff with old Noah.  This ending reminded me slightly of the end of Six Feet Under, where the main characters’ deaths (& old age) were shown in the last few minutes — which was eerie & creepy, but it worked for that show.  Here it was meh.

THE DEUCE just ended in almost the same way, with an old Vincent in 2019 seeing the ghosts of his dead friends from back in 1985. Both of these scenes made me cry because I am sentimental.

However, THE DEUCE ended without so many flaws as THE AFFAIR. All over twitter they are praising THE AFFAIR. I don't get all the Treem love over there.

The writing for this episode was as awful as the previous episodes in this season. The entire Joanie/oldBen scenes were preposterous. Ben's "trap" was a joke. AND the version of Alison's death that he told Joanie was a third version so there was no closure there. 

Old Ben seemed crazier than ever. How could he have managed to continue to run that trauma facility? 

In spite of all the many flaws, I loved this series and I will miss it and the characters. I can enjoy a show that makes no sense, is filled with bloopers (Joanie returning home with no luggage etc.) and jut enjoy the wacky and silly ride. And I did. 

[scrb]

2 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

I don't think "inherited trauma" has anything to do with someone dying their hair blond and somehow passing on to their descendants a propensity for lighter hair.  "Inherited trauma" has to do with traumatic events in people's lives like death, suicide, serious injury, and so on.  The fact that Joanie thought Alison had committed suicide had affected her life deeply, so that trauma had been passed on to her.  

Or that’s just trauma.  

What EJ was getting at, with his whole epigeneticist spiel, is that it gets passed down the generations even if the child never witnessed these events.  Remember he went on about the history of the Lockharts.

It sounds like a fringe idea, like Ben with EDMR.

[itsadryheat]

I recently changed my DISH programming and received 3 months free Showtime. I started watching The Affair thinking it was The Divorce and got sucked into it, binge watching all seasons in 3 weeks. Not sure what I watched or why. Loved the acting and characters. Due to the bi polar storyline/timeframe(s), and this "airy" ending, I now think I have PTSD. 

3 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

I recently changed my DISH programming and received 3 months free Showtime. I started watching The Affair thinking it was The Divorce and got sucked into it, binge watching all seasons in 3 weeks. Not sure what I watched or why. Loved the acting and characters. Due to the bi polar storyline/timeframe(s), and this "airy" ending, I now think I have PTSD. 

3 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

3 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

I

Edited November 5, 2019 by itsadryheat
example of my ptsd

[LoveLeigh]

24 minutes ago, scrb said:

Or that’s just trauma.  

What EJ was getting at, with his whole epigeneticist spiel, is that it gets passed down the generations even if the child never witnessed these events.  Remember he went on about the history of the Lockharts.

It sounds like a fringe idea, like Ben with EDMR.

My opinion is that it does not even matter because this was the final season and they spent very little time developing the character of Joanie for the validity of these theories to have any impact on any character arcs. It was random and shoe horned in stuff. 

They should have not introduced an older Eddie (he was unnecessary, it was a Treem shtik) and they should have developed Joanie discovering how her mother died more thoroughly and have her confront old Ben in a longer and more detailed grounded way without having her appear so unhinged with that comment of how she would kill him. 

They should have scripted Joanie to be more stable without infusing into her those parts with all the random choking sex. I know many people feel that was who she was because of her trauma but I feel it was the wrong path to go because it made her reconciliation with her husband a weak joke. They could have made Joanie a troubled woman in some other way. It diminished the integrity and believability of even the job she had. 

If Joanie had gone back to Montauk as a strong woman with minor problems and in some other way confronted Ben and if he had no "trap" it would have been more satisfying. Then when Joanie talks to Noah they could have shared memories and he could have given her advice regarding her past and the future that would have made some sense. 

And nobody answered the question: did Luisa stay with Cole because Joanie called her "mom?" 

Edited November 5, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[T Summer]

4 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

And nobody answered the question: did Luisa stay with Cole because Joanie called her "mom?" 

When Noah and Whitney went to Montauk to plan the wedding, they ran into Luisa at the L.R. and I thought she told Noah they'd divorced or were split up and Cole and Joanie were leaving for Vermont? He went to try and say goodbye to Joanie and found an empty house

[T Summer]

38 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

However, THE DEUCE ended without so many flaws as THE AFFAIR. All over twitter they are praising THE AFFAIR. I don't get all the Treem love over there.

There IS an explaination for that. Originally posted by Stad15 in Speculation / Series as a whole