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S04.E04: 404 Not Found

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First Aired: October 27, 2019

Elliot, Mr. Robot and Tyrell walkin' in a winter wonderland. Darlene meets a bad Santa. Dom is DTF.

Don't look at me! This from Tvguide.com!

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Way to confirm if the guy is dead Tyrell? 

I was expecting "happyhardonhenry806" to be Janice. Dom's not worried the Dark Army is reading her chats? And Darlene is on her mind tonight? She can't aim higher on Christmas Eve?

Mr. Robot's outburst to the woman was funny!

Did she give them the right directions and they didn't follow it or did she know it would lead back to the store?

Good to know the State police doesn't patrol that area.

Tyrell is now out of the story to help Elliot?! Why get rid of him so quick/he provided no contribution this season? Now Whiterose has no CEO of E-Corp!  

Did Tyrell find Marsellus Wallace's suitcase in the woods??

What!? A responsible Darlene made sure Tobias didn't drive drunk.

Seems like Tobias and his wife were determined to win the prize for the brightest house on the street. I'm sure a few jealous neighbors got a chuckle she threw her back out putting up Santa.

I hope now Darlene and Elliot have "found" each other and will end their hostility.

Edited by mxc90
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That had to be the most useless filler episode of this whole series, fitting, I suppose, for the one in which the mostly useless Tyrell Wellick gives up the ghost. 

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Nice that they threw in some references to Christian Slater’s “Pump up the Volume”. His DJ name is happy hard-on Henry in the film and Concrete Blonde’s “Joey” is on its soundtrack.

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It was Pine Barrens without the humor?

Elliott and Darlene were both emotional about the fight they had.

Dom seems to feel helpless.  She can’t even bust a nut without having nightmares about the Dark Army.

These are the heroes who are going to take down an international criminal conspiracy?

Because it’s going to be inspirational when these sad sacks climb, no pole vault out of the depths of despair to overcome evil?

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2 hours ago, Cardie said:

That had to be the most useless filler episode of this whole series

This times 1000.

I don’t even know why I continue to watch this show, it’s been so long since I enjoyed it.

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5 hours ago, Minaboo said:

This times 1000.

I don’t even know why I continue to watch this show, it’s been so long since I enjoyed it.

Yeah.

So Tyrell is an Elliot alter?

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Oh the Elliot/Tyrell shippers are not going to be happy about this. There goes their happily ever after wish for them. Not to mention Elliot's making it clear how much he kind of really couldn't stand Tyrell, before Tyrell kicked the bucket. 

I have to say, great as the actor is, Tyrell's character has always been the biggest flaw I've had with this show. I just never felt like Esmail truly knew where he wanted to go with the character and his full purpose.

I think it was especially frustrating because of how much time he spent on Tyrell and his crazy ass wife, in the first season. I never felt like I truly got what we were supposed to think and feel about the character, if that makes sense. 

That said, lordy this was kind of a depressing episode. These people are all so lost and broken, not to mention all really likely heading towards death, as Tyrell said. 

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah.

So Tyrell is an Elliot alter?

Based on what?

Edited by truthaboutluv
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What a jerk off!

This was the culmination of how badly Esmail handled the Tyrell character.  Tyrell was great in Season 1, an intriguing character who seemed like him and his wife had a plan or were working for someone.  Then Esmail inexplicably decides to keep him off-screen most of Season 2 while also inexplicably deciding to kill Joanna off.  A missed opportunity.  Tyrell returns and we find out he really doesn't have much of an agenda...he's just a useless character.  This culminates in a useless episode where Tyrell is killed in a useless way at the end of it.  Read Esmail's Hollywood Reporter interview, where he admits trying to figure out how things were going to end with Tyrell, meaning he had no long-term plan for the character whatsoever.  Just TERRIBLE writing on his part and it flushed away the momentum the show had gathered these first three episodes of the final season.  Pathetic.

It didn't help that this was a complete filler episode until the very end.  This is why they gave Mr. Robot three more episodes this season?  So they could do a filler episode? 

The sad part is, I liked some of the scenes with Elliot/Robot and Tyrell, along with Dom and the Santa.  Robot's outburst with the clerk was pretty funny and very understandable.  Dom pleasuring herself to Darlene's interrogation video was wtf but funny too.  I don't want to know what else is on her hard drive!

But otherwise, this was the Sopranos Pine Barren episode without the humor or, you know, the good writing!  Oh, and Dom pleasuring herself and dreaming.  Because that's why you need three extra episodes!

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I will say, while I do think the writing failed in never truly fleshing out and explaining Tyrell's purpose, unpopular opinion but I kind of don't care he's dead because frankly I didn't care much about him or his crazy wife in Season 1. Again, my only interest was I assumed it was leading somewhere and that somewhere somehow tied to Elliot or the Dark Army. 

But I never cared about Tyrell's sex with men, his inexplicably murdering the CFO's wife. And I damn sure never shipped him and Elliot or bought that he was some Elliot alter. So I'm pretty much eh about his death. Not unlike how I felt about Angela's death. I feel like I'd be more affected if Dom gets killed. 

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Does anyone else believe that Tyrell is Elliot’s 3rd personality. I believe them walking in the woods last night was Elliot re integrating his 3rd personality. Of course that would make Elliot the new ceo of e-Corp. white rose knows he has multiple personalities, because she had Mr. Robot working for her and she knew Elliot didn’t know. I think she was trying to mess him up by making Tyrell CEO.

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I didn't understand anything about this episode. This seemed like a complete waste of time. Nothing has moved forward at all.

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I have never bought into the Tyrell was an Elliot alter theory and there are way too many things working against that theory, than for it at this point, IMO. Tyrell was arrested by the FBI and threatened by Santiago, while Elliot was running around wanting to kill himself.

And speaking of that, we saw Dom and FBI's board that tied everything together and Tyrell was there along with Elliot, Darlene, Dark Army and other members of F-Society. Mr. Robot, not present because we know he doesn't exist. 

We literally saw Angela and Tyrell working together and discussing keeping Elliot doped up to stop him from ruining Phase II. We saw Tyrell confused when Elliot challenged him about Phase II because he thought they were in it together, except for how that was really his working with Mr. Robot. 

Season 3 gave a whole background about why Tyrell disappeared and where he'd been the whole time. We saw Irvin or whatever the hell his name was discussing dealing with Tyrell AND Elliot. And I'm sure there's a million other things I can point to. 

I guess Esmail can do whatever the hell he wants to in the end but again, at this point there are way too many things challenging the theory versus working towards it. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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11 hours ago, Cardie said:

That had to be the most useless filler episode of this whole series, fitting, I suppose, for the one in which the mostly useless Tyrell Wellick gives up the ghost. 

Yeah, this was probably my least favorite episode of the show's run. After the first season of this show I thought it was one of the best written shows on TV. It was smart and it felt like Esmail was trying something fresh and original in a subgenre that nobody else was doing. It was exciting and based on the first season I thought that Mr. Robot was shaping up to be one of the most memorable shows of all time.

Season two felt like a bit of a misfire at points but the sophmore season can often be tricky, so I gave it a pass and was pleased when season three seemed like a return to form. 

This final season though? I've liked parts of it. Philip plotting against Whiterose and seeing the backstory for Whiterose but in terms of where the show is going as a whole, I haven't been that engaged with what the majority of the characters are up to and that's been frustrating. 

Tyrell has been a big waste of time and hasn't been interesting since season 1. Seeing him end like this was lame when the character had so much potential.

We spend a lot of time with Dom, a character I like, but there isn't much going on there. We know that the Dark Army is watching her every move but her story seems stuck until the Dark Army reaches out to her again or they have some interaction. Seeing her masturbate to Darlene and chatting online just felt like a time waster. 

Darlene spends this episode talking with a drunk santa. We don't get any interesting reveals with her character in her conversation with this stranger. Just a bit of confusion regarding her thinking that the guy might be suicidal. Not exactly must see TV stuff here. 

The scenes with the characters stuck in the snow? Pine Barrens was SO much better. There was insightful dialogue, fun action sequences, and terrific humor throughout. Christopher and Paulie walked in a circle too just like the trio in this episode. The difference is I actually wanted to see what would happen next with Christopher and Paulie. When the trio in this episode realized they'd walked in a circle I felt more annoyed than anything else. It just felt like pointless jerk off waste of time. 

I agree with Benteen that I can't believe that Esmail needed extra episodes this season. I'm going to stick with it until the end but my expectations that the finale will stick the landing have pretty much plummeted. 

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15 minutes ago, Meme048 said:

Does anyone else believe that Tyrell is Elliot’s 3rd personality. I believe them walking in the woods last night was Elliot re integrating his 3rd personality. Of course that would make Elliot the new ceo of e-Corp. white rose knows he has multiple personalities, because she had Mr. Robot working for her and she knew Elliot didn’t know. I think she was trying to mess him up by making Tyrell CEO.

Yes. I saw the walk in the woods the same way, and have suspected Tyrell was an Elliot since season 1.
But it is not a popular opinion.

_____________

I did like Darlene with drunk Santa. 

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2 hours ago, benteen said:

Tyrell was great in Season 1, an intriguing character who seemed like him and his wife had a plan or were working for someone. 

To be fair, as someone else noted on another board, Tyrell was always kind of a mess and not really that bright, if you think about it, even from Season 1. Just look at the mess with the CFO's wife and how recklessly and sloppily he murdered her. Honestly, it always seemed like Joanna was the really ruthless one holding it all together and she kept her and Tyrell's useless ass afloat. 

I do understand why people have held onto the theory that Tyrell was an alter of Elliot's. The one thing I will say is that I can see how one could read the scene in the convenience store with the cashier as her talking to one person the whole time. There was something interesting about the whole framing of the scene. And as someone noted on another board, Tyrell told Elliot to go pay for the gas but somehow, for no reason ever explained, he entered the store as well. So again, I get the rationale behind this theory. 

That said, I have just never gotten the sense that's what happening. Like I knew by Episode 3 that Mr. Robot was not real and completely in Elliot's head. I've just never gotten that impression with Tyrell, ever. And like I said, at this point, there is A LOT that's going to be asked of the viewer to suspend belief, to make a Tyrell/Elliot were one person the whole time. 

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Joining in the disappointment re: Tyrell's undeveloped character. I don't know if the actor had other jobs that limited his involvement, but it really feels like a wasted opportunity.

The walk in the woods did have some pertinent reveals with Elliot and Tyrell's honest admissions about each other, Elliot admitting how poorly he treats Darlene, and the acceptance that none of this will end well. (I'm half expecting a Shakespearean tragedy type of ending.) I don't mourn Tyrell himself as much as his lost potential. I thought something interesting could happen with him as CEO of E Corp, even if it was supposedly in name only. He would have been inside where he could have pulled strings.

The scenes with Dom felt pointless at first, but it recalls when we first met her. She was aimless and didn't have much going for her in her work or personal life. Cluing in on the Dark Army gave her purpose, made her life exciting, and eventually put her in a position of authority. I don't think she likes Darlene as much as Darlene is a symbol of the interest and excitement Dom experienced for a time. Now her life is a nightmare. She has no authority again, no direction, and worse, she's terrified. Any personal encounter - even someone online - could be part of the D.A. So she's back to a limited existence and now is afraid at the same time. 

As for Darlene, perhaps it's a bit similar. In season 1, she was active in the initial take-down of E Corp. When Elliot was in jail, she was in charge. Now she's taking orders and has no control. She was moved by the drunk Santa and thought she might be able to help. As cynical as she generally is, it was telling that she cared. Then she found out her input was meaningless. Which is how she's increasingly felt lately.  I'm hoping that Elliot's realization will help them work together going forward. 

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Tyrell was shot? I wasn't giving it my full attention at the end. 

I think part of my problem is that it was gone for two years. I haven't done a re-watch, and I don't feel attached to the characters now (except maybe Darlene and Elliot). 

Elliot's outburst at the woman, was funny. (and her reaction). I was thinking that since she recognized Tyrell, he couldn't be an alter - unless he was really Eliot, and Rami Malek was one of his alters. You know? My head hurts. 

I liked Darlene and the Santa. I'm glad that his wife wasn't dead, she'd just thrown her back out. The episode was feeling more like the Twilight Zone. 

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1 hour ago, Anela said:

Tyrell was shot? I wasn't giving it my full attention at the end. 

I think part of my problem is that it was gone for two years. I haven't done a re-watch, and I don't feel attached to the characters now (except maybe Darlene and Elliot). 

Elliot's outburst at the woman, was funny. (and her reaction). I was thinking that since she recognized Tyrell, he couldn't be an alter - unless he was really Eliot, and Rami Malek was one of his alters. You know? My head hurts. 

I liked Darlene and the Santa. I'm glad that his wife wasn't dead, she'd just thrown her back out. The episode was feeling more like the Twilight Zone. 

This: I think Elliot and Mr. Robot(his dad) are dead/have been dead. Tyrell has always been a real person. People have always been able to see him. Who is Tyrell? I feel like that's the real question. Also, It would make sense that Elliot's mom had that cassette recorder of him and Darlene as a kid. Why would she? Because he died when he fell out the window.  That was my crazy speculation for the day. I liked this episode. 

It could also be that a time machine did exist and Elliot has been trying to stop it ... like Terminator. 

Edited by kristywoods
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7 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Oh the Elliot/Tyrell shippers are not going to be happy about this. There goes their happily ever after wish for them. Not to mention Elliot's making it clear how much he kind of really couldn't stand Tyrell, before Tyrell kicked the bucket. 

I have to say, great as the actor is, Tyrell's character has always been the biggest flaw I've had with this show. I just never felt like Esmail truly knew where he wanted to go with the character and his full purpose.

I think it was especially frustrating because of how much time he spent on Tyrell and his crazy ass wife, in the first season. I never felt like I truly got what we were supposed to think and feel about the character, if that makes sense. 

That said, lordy this was kind of a depressing episode. These people are all so lost and broken, not to mention all really likely heading towards death, as Tyrell said. 

Based on what?

7 hours ago, benteen said:

What a jerk off!

This was the culmination of how badly Esmail handled the Tyrell character.  Tyrell was great in Season 1, an intriguing character who seemed like him and his wife had a plan or were working for someone.  Then Esmail inexplicably decides to keep him off-screen most of Season 2 while also inexplicably deciding to kill Joanna off.  A missed opportunity.  Tyrell returns and we find out he really doesn't have much of an agenda...he's just a useless character.  This culminates in a useless episode where Tyrell is killed in a useless way at the end of it.  Read Esmail's Hollywood Reporter interview, where he admits trying to figure out how things were going to end with Tyrell, meaning he had no long-term plan for the character whatsoever.  Just TERRIBLE writing on his part and it flushed away the momentum the show had gathered these first three episodes of the final season.  Pathetic.

It didn't help that this was a complete filler episode until the very end.  This is why they gave Mr. Robot three more episodes this season?  So they could do a filler episode? 

The sad part is, I liked some of the scenes with Elliot/Robot and Tyrell, along with Dom and the Santa.  Robot's outburst with the clerk was pretty funny and very understandable.  Dom pleasuring herself to Darlene's interrogation video was wtf but funny too.  I don't want to know what else is on her hard drive!

But otherwise, this was the Sopranos Pine Barren episode without the humor or, you know, the good writing!  Oh, and Dom pleasuring herself and dreaming.  Because that's why you need three extra episodes!

Trying to remember season 1.  He really wanted to climb E-Corp but he wasn't trying to take it down, right?

Then he seduced that woman, who was his boss' wife, killed her.

He went around punching homeless people?

Wife was a man-eater.  I remember those close shots of her eating.  (Also remember the odd framing they used to do the first two seasons, with the subject always at the edge or corner of the frame).

At some point, Tyrell wanted to join F-Society or at least Elliott to take down the bad guys?

Seems like he was mostly thirsty for Elliott all this time, going back to the beginning.

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18 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Did Tyrell find Marsellus Wallace's suitcase in the woods??

Too funny! I thought about Pulp Fiction too. 

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16 hours ago, Minaboo said:

This times 1000.

I don’t even know why I continue to watch this show, it’s been so long since I enjoyed it.

I agree.  I guess I just want to see how this show will end.

I think this show lost its way when they brought on the Dark Army and Whiterose.  What was the purpose of the Dark Army or Whiterose anyway?

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1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I agree.  I guess I just want to see how this show will end.

I think this show lost its way when they brought on the Dark Army and Whiterose.  What was the purpose of the Dark Army or Whiterose anyway?

YMMV but in my opinion, the purpose of the Dark Army and Whiterose is that they’re the story’s antagonist. Without Whiterose and the Dark Army, what exactly would the conflict of the show be?

Edited by truthaboutluv
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This ep was a disappointment after several eps I had enjoyed. Everyone suddenly became stupid. I couldn’t believe it took Wellick however long to think about the fact the cashier knew him. I thought they were going to kill her back when it happened, with some last-minute justification. 

They assumed the Dark Army guy recovered and stole the truck. Did they never check his vitals? And Wellick manages to get shot. Genius. 

I guess the idea was to get Wellick and Elliott together to have a Meaningful Talk. Was that meaningful? The argument on the roadside felt a lot like three personalities of Elliott. Elliott this season doesn’t seem like Elliott.

Not sure what Darlene’s Santa adventure was supposed to be about. She made a bunch of assumptions, which, when you think about it, is what she did when she started out on the “being down society” scheme.

Or the online lesbian dreams vision. 

I kept waiting for Darlene to bump into them as she drove around Santa, and then afterward. 

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One thing I know from watching this series is that even the crap episodes have clues and nuances in them. That dream Dom had, where the dark army got to her even in her most private of lives may be a wtf moment for most but I think this may be the catalyst she needs to break free.  I don't see Dom living through this but she's got to get over being so scared. 

And yes. I see her and elliot working together eventually. 

I don't think Tyrell is dead yet. Remember,  Darlene was on her way. That light was probably her. And now that the siblings have worked through their issues they can plan their next moves. Together. Finally. Without all the animosity. 

Don't be disappointed folks. I have faith ole Sam is gonna break us soon. 

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7 hours ago, hnygrl said:

Don't be disappointed folks. I have faith ole Sam is gonna break us soon. 

Personally, I didn't expect every episode to be high intensity and have tons of action so I actually didn't have a problem with this episode. While yes seemingly nothing happened (well Tyrell did get shot), for me the point was to show how lost and hopeless all of these people are - Elliot, Tyrell, Dom, Darlene. And yeah they likely will all end up dead when it's all said and done but as Elliot noted, they had to keep going anyway. Because what's the option, to just give up?

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20 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

To be fair, as someone else noted on another board, Tyrell was always kind of a mess and not really that bright, if you think about it, even from Season 1. Just look at the mess with the CFO's wife and how recklessly and sloppily he murdered her. Honestly, it always seemed like Joanna was the really ruthless one holding it all together and she kept her and Tyrell's useless ass afloat. 

I do understand why people have held onto the theory that Tyrell was an alter of Elliot's. The one thing I will say is that I can see how one could read the scene in the convenience store with the cashier as her talking to one person the whole time. There was something interesting about the whole framing of the scene. And as someone noted on another board, Tyrell told Elliot to go pay for the gas but somehow, for no reason ever explained, he entered the store as well. So again, I get the rationale behind this theory. 

That said, I have just never gotten the sense that's what happening. Like I knew by Episode 3 that Mr. Robot was not real and completely in Elliot's head. I've just never gotten that impression with Tyrell, ever. And like I said, at this point, there is A LOT that's going to be asked of the viewer to suspend belief, to make a Tyrell/Elliot were one person the whole time. 

19 hours ago, Anela said:

Tyrell was shot? I wasn't giving it my full attention at the end. 

I think part of my problem is that it was gone for two years. I haven't done a re-watch, and I don't feel attached to the characters now (except maybe Darlene and Elliot). 

Elliot's outburst at the woman, was funny. (and her reaction). I was thinking that since she recognized Tyrell, he couldn't be an alter - unless he was really Eliot, and Rami Malek was one of his alters. You know? My head hurts. 

I liked Darlene and the Santa. I'm glad that his wife wasn't dead, she'd just thrown her back out. The episode was feeling more like the Twilight Zone. 

17 hours ago, kristywoods said:

This: I think Elliot and Mr. Robot(his dad) are dead/have been dead. Tyrell has always been a real person. People have always been able to see him. Who is Tyrell? I feel like that's the real question. Also, It would make sense that Elliot's mom had that cassette recorder of him and Darlene as a kid. Why would she? Because he died when he fell out the window.  That was my crazy speculation for the day. I liked this episode. 

It could also be that a time machine did exist and Elliot has been trying to stop it ... like Terminator. 

16 hours ago, scrb said:

Trying to remember season 1.  He really wanted to climb E-Corp but he wasn't trying to take it down, right?

Then he seduced that woman, who was his boss' wife, killed her.

He went around punching homeless people?

Wife was a man-eater.  I remember those close shots of her eating.  (Also remember the odd framing they used to do the first two seasons, with the subject always at the edge or corner of the frame).

At some point, Tyrell wanted to join F-Society or at least Elliott to take down the bad guys?

Seems like he was mostly thirsty for Elliott all this time, going back to the beginning.

Tyrell being an Elliot alter would not be probable but I guess nothing is impossible on this show. I mean does that mean Elliot was married to Joanna and had a baby? Are both Joanna and the baby also alters?

RIP, Tyrell. Now, you can join your poor man's Angelina Jolie wife and make pointless schemes and in the afterlife. I hope your baby is being raised by nice people in Denmark and he honestly might actually better off not being with his nutbag biological parents. 

Sadly, the only things I know about you is that you were a handsome guy that had some really nice suits.

12 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but in my opinion, the purpose of the Dark Army and Whiterose is that they’re the story’s antagonist. Without Whiterose and the Dark Army, what exactly would the conflict of the show be?

Watching Elliot pick out which black hoodie he's going to wear in the morning?

Maybe the finale will be Elliot stop moping about long dead relatives, realize he is a computer genius, and then be a founder of a billion dollar start up in Silicon Valley. Perhaps he can hire the guys at Pied Piper so he won't be the most socially awkward person at the table.

Edited by qtpye
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Just now, qtpye said:

Watching Elliot pick out which black hoodie he's going to wear in the morning?

lmao... The right black hoodie is a serious thing. 

Just now, qtpye said:

Tyrell being an Elliot alter would not be probable but I guess nothing is impossible on this show. I mean does that mean Elliot was married to Joanna and had a baby? Are both Joanna and the baby also alters?

Yup, at this point, with everything that's happened, there is A LOT that would have to be rationalized to make Tyrell being an Elliot alter work. And I mean a lot. And I've always subscribed to the theory that if a writer has to twist and turn and contort to make a storyline work, then it's just not good and poor writing. 

I looked up the scene on YouTube to confirm what I remembered and yes, when Darlene sees the FBI's board breaking down the connections of everyone and the 5/9 hack and how F-Society was connected to the Dark Army, etc., dead in the middle were pictures of Elliot and Tyrell.

So is Darlene then also seeing two people, did that never happen, was the whole FBI storyline of arresting Tyrell not real, etc. There's just too many massive loopholes here, in my opinion, for this to work and make sense. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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This episode was beautiful in soooo many ways. Such a weird show with incredible characters. It reminds me a lot of "The Sopranos" episode "Pine Barrens" but with so much raw emotion! Just a beautiful episode. Everyone is "LOST' or isolated in their own way. Great stuff! I'm new to this board but I love what you guys are doing! I'll like and share this site on my Facebook page. People need more groups to talk about GOOD shows like this outside of Facebook. Can't wait for Sunday's episode. Sh** is about to get INTENSE! Guys me and my friend do quick podcast that I posted here under the spoiler section. We're just having fun. Listen or don't listen. Either way, this is a cool thing you guys have going here! Love to connect with other Mr Robot fans

Spoiler
What did Tyrell see at the end??!! I must know! Short podcast 
 
 
 
Edited by Malarkey Hour
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The main reason I can imagine the Tyrelliot scenario is because for me, season 2 began when, due to major medical complications, I had no ability to form short term memories, so when season 3 started nearly a year later, it was like friending an old classmate on Facebook who I never really knew 50 years ago, but whom I vaguely recalled was a nice guy. And now, well, nearly 8 months since the end of season 3 to the beginning of season 4 isn't helping.
So. From my admittedly skewed perspective, regarding:

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

Tyrell being an Elliot alter would not be probable but I guess nothing is impossible on this show. I mean does that mean Elliot was married to Joanna and had a baby? Are both Joanna and the baby also alters?

Maybe Joanna and the baby were imaginary --maybe Tyrelliot had dreamed of having a perfect family when he grew up with a beautiful wife and baby.

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

Maybe the finale will be Elliot stop moping about long dead relatives, realize he is a computer genius, and then be a founder of a billion dollar start up in Silicon Valley.

Or, if Tyrell is an Elliot alter, Elliot will realize he has done all of those things.

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

So is Darlene then also seeing two people, did that never happen, was the whole FBI storyline of arresting Tyrell not real, etc. There's just too many massive loopholes here, in my opinion, for this to work and make sense. 

Darlene could be seeing one person while the audience sees two.

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As this episode hammered home, Tyrell has a well known face. Either when we’re shown him on the news or in the papers, others see Rami Malek or all the times we’ve seen Rami, others see Wallstrom. That’s quite a stretch although I guess possible. To me, they had the chance to make Tyrell an alter at the beginning of S3 but decided not to. 

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1 hour ago, Cardie said:

As this episode hammered home, Tyrell has a well known face. Either when we’re shown him on the news or in the papers, others see Rami Malek or all the times we’ve seen Rami, others see Wallstrom. That’s quite a stretch although I guess possible. To me, they had the chance to make Tyrell an alter at the beginning of S3 but decided not to. 

I’m thinking Elliot could have been an alter of Tyrell all along (instead of the other way around) —if so, when Tyrell goes into Elliot mode, he wears a hoodie. 
There have been scenes in which the camera focuses on Elliot taking the hood off of his head. I wonder if these would support the Tyrelliot theory. I’d have to rewatch —but that is not going to happen. 😉

Anyway, if Tyrell is the main personality with Elliot being secondary, then when Tyrell is shot in this episode, it could signify that Elliot is now going on to be the primary. 
Mr Robot (the dad) is the constant —sort of a Jiminy Cricket with a bad temper. 

Edited by shapeshifter · Reason: more accurate verb tense
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I rewatched the first three episodes of Season 1 this weekend. I think it may have been the second or third episode when Elliot was detoxing in a motel room and had a series of hallucinations/dreams. In one of them, he's back at his childhood home whose house number (as shown on the mailbox) is 404. On the telephone pole in front of him, a flyer with the words, "404 Not Found" was posted. I presume this had some tie-in to the themes in this episode--but I've not a clue what what to draw from that. A 404 error means the server can't return the page requested -- that it's a dead or broken link. Maybe it's that that reality never existed after Whiterose delivered whatever her time/alternate reality device created? I don't know. I feel like I sort of understand it but just can't articulate it well.  

I wasn't initially on board with Tyrell being Elliot's alter (or vice versa) but I really think there might be something to that. I was struck in this episode by Tyrell asking Elliot why he was always in the same clothes - black jeans, black shoes, black hoodie - while he, Tyrell, wore $6,000 suits and silk ties. Tyrell also had a habit of beating up homeless men to get his aggression out -- which could explain why Elliott violently went after Darlene a few episodes back. 

Of course, all of that could mean absolutely nothing, too. 

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14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m thinking Elliot could have been an alter of Tyrell all along (instead of the other way around) —if so, when Tyrell goes into Elliot mode, he wears a hoodie. 
There have been scenes in which the camera focuses on Elliot taking the hood off of his head. I wonder if these would support the Tyrelliot theory. I’d have to rewatch —but that is not going to happen. 😉

Anyway, if Tyrell is the main personality with Elliot being secondary, then when Tyrell is shot in this episode, it could signify that Elliot is now going on to be the primary. 
Mr Robot (the dad) is the constant —sort of a Jiminy Cricket with a bad temper. 

I kind of find it interesting that Tyrell and Elliot, if not each other alters, ever became friends, because they are almost the literal opposites of each other.

Tyrell-Handsome, Blonde, Scandinavian or Dutch. The driven business man who wants to ruthlessly climb the corporate ladder and enjoys the trapping of wealth and success.  He is married with a son and despite being CTO of E-corp, has not shown any type of tech savvy and did not even assume that Elliot's apartment was bugged by the dark army (which should be a "duh" at this point).

Elliot- Nice looking in an off kilter way, Dark haired with light olive skin. Does not care about appearance to the point of living in almost near squalor, even though his abilities could bring him great wealth. Has not had a good romantic relationship that did not end in utter tragedy. He also might be one of the greatest tech minds of his generation.

Edited by qtpye
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15 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

I was struck in this episode by Tyrell asking Elliot why he was always in the same clothes - black jeans, black shoes, black hoodie - while he, Tyrell, wore $6,000 suits and silk ties.

Except Tyrell directly addressed the point of his comment. That Elliot, unlike him, doesn't and never cared about being "accepted". So while Tyrell spent his life chasing this prestige and it really brought him nothing in the end, Elliot doesn't even bother to change something as simple as his fashion choices, because he's not looking for society's acceptance.

Certainly not in the way someone like Tyrell seemed to be. Which in fairness, far from not seeking acceptance, likely has to do with Elliot's crippling social anxiety and his general discomfort with other humans. 

As I noted above, at the end of the day, Esmail can do whatever he wants, so the Elliot/Tyrell thing may turn out to be true. That said, I just know if that is indeed the case, we the viewers will be asked to buy some really convoluted shit to make it make sense because of all that has happened involving both characters in the three seasons.

And I for one will be very disappointed if this show ends like a Lost or one of these shows where people went, "um, what? That makes no sense". I'd rather have intelligent writing that makes narrative sense versus some crazy, convoluted crap just for the purposes of a big, dramatic "twist".

I also think that sometimes viewers maybe over think this show way too much. For as much as some say the show is so confusing, I've always felt like it may be less of a case of the show and writing itself being confusing and viewers confusing themselves by overthinking it.

Yes, there are metaphors galore and Email's writing is definitely some of the most intelligent television writing I've ever seen but that doesn't mean everything is some deep, complex, twisted mind fuck.

Edited by truthaboutluv
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19 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

That said, I just know if that is indeed the case, we the viewers will be asked to buy some really convoluted shit to make it make sense because of all that has happened involving both characters in the three seasons.

I don't disagree with this at all. None of this "hunting for clues/meaning" probably would have entered my mind had not the monkey wrench of the "third Elliot" been introduced earlier this season. 

I've loved this show and have been impressed with Esmail's storytelling. I have every hope that it'll wrap up soundly -- which is something I usually don't say when a show is slogging towards its demise. 

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7 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except Tyrell directly addressed the point of his comment. That Elliot, unlike him, doesn't and never cared about being "accepted". So while Tyrell spent his life chasing this prestige and it really brought him nothing in the end, Elliot doesn't even bother to change something as simple as his fashion choices, because he's not looking for society's acceptance.

Certainly not in the way someone like Tyrell seemed to be. Which in fairness, far from not seeking acceptance, likely has to do with Elliot's crippling social anxiety and his general discomfort with other humans. 

As I noted above, at the end of the day, Esmail can do whatever he wants, so the Elliot/Tyrell thing may turn out to be true. That said, I just know if that is indeed the case, we the viewers will be asked to buy some really convoluted shit to make it make sense because of all that has happened involving both characters in the three seasons.

And I for one will be very disappointed if this show ends like a Lost or one of these shows where people went, "um, what? That makes no sense". I'd rather have intelligent writing that makes narrative sense versus some crazy, convoluted crap just for the purposes of a big, dramatic "twist".

I also think that sometimes viewers maybe over think this show way too much. For as much as some say the show is so confusing, I've always felt like it may be less of a case of the show and writing itself being confusing and viewers confusing themselves by overthinking it.

Yes, there are metaphors galore and Email's writing is definitely some of the most intelligent television writing I've ever seen but that doesn't mean everything is some deep, complex, twisted mind fuck.

I usually don't overthink things, including this show. I was just thinking about the possibility, because I've seen it brought up.

Even when Lost was on the air, I gave up looking for "clues" that everyone would be talking about on TWOP. I'd enjoy reading the long threads - pages and pages - but couldn't be bothered to try to figure anything out, because I knew the writers could change things up, or not have a plan at all. Overthinking can ruin a show, as well, I just wanted to enjoy it. I will also be disappointed if the ending ends up being bad. 

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On 10/28/2019 at 2:15 AM, Scribex said:

Nice that they threw in some references to Christian Slater’s “Pump up the Volume”. His DJ name is happy hard-on Henry in the film and Concrete Blonde’s “Joey” is on its soundtrack.

Close.  It was "Happy Harry Hard-on"

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What a weird episode, and a weird ending to Tyrell. It seems like after the first season they really didnt know what to do with him, but wanted him to stick around, so they just kept giving him random stuff to do and random motivations, and not he dies disappearing into...a space ship? The future? An alternate universe? 

I did actually like Darlene and the drunk Santa, and Darlene projecting all of her depression onto this random drunk guy, but also how she tried to help him. I am glad he just turned out to be a decent, if pretty drunk, guy and not Dark Army or some kind of creep. 

Kind of an interesting atmosphere, but also kind of pointless seeming, so close to the end of the show. It sure did do a good job of showing how depressed and lost everyone is at least. 

I thought that the drunk hospital Santa might be a shout out to the classic Twilight Zone episode "Night of the Meek" about an alcoholic mall Santa who drinks to forget how sad people in his poor neighborhood are, and ends up living his dream of becoming the real Santa.

Edited by tennisgurl
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I guess this was kind of the Mr Robot version of Pine Barrens in a way. I did like the scene with Tyrell going back and forth with Elliot and Mr Robot at the same time.

I thought they were going to kill the woman in the store. She certainly had it coming.

Wow, *everything* with Dom is so boring. The actor is fine, I'm not knocking her, but I feel like she should win an award for most scenes jerking off ffs.

The Santa was amusing. I don't think we needed 50 hours for Darlene to have a breakthrough though.

Edited by DoctorAtomic

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On 10/28/2019 at 12:44 AM, Minaboo said:

This times 1000.

I don’t even know why I continue to watch this show, it’s been so long since I enjoyed it.

Thank you. I think part of it is the century and a half between seasons for me, but this season has been excruciatingly ponderous. Everyone seems to be just *opining* all over the place.

I get the feeling that this season could have really been like a 6 hour miniseries.

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I have never bought into the Tyrell was an Elliot alter theory and there are way too many things working against that theory, than for it at this point, IMO. Tyrell was arrested by the FBI and threatened by Santiago, while Elliot was running around wanting to kill himself.

I definitely think this is true, but I think this show has always worked in unreliable narrator territory. What we know is there is a guy named Tyrell who actually exists, but there may well be a Tyrell personality as well, especially since the third personality appears to be new. I don't mind the show playing with the idea without ever confirming, because IMO given it's structure it can't and doesn't want to "confirm" anything.  It's what made me love the show and love S2 most of all, the idea of playing in a malleable, uncertain reality, that there are alternate ones that are possible, reachable, the way technology has played a role in the numerous realities. 

I think that also explains how and why Tyrell has never been fully fleshed out, we aren't supposed to care about him, in and of himself, we are only supposed to engage and invest to the degree that Elliot engages and invests, with whatever he needs Tyrell to be.  I'm not trying to say it's not bad writing per se only that it works for me as is because I don't care about Tyrell on his own and my favorite season is the one he isn't in, and that Elliot himself is backgrounded in.  

I definitely don't get why Esmail would bring him back here unless it was to pull on that thread that he's an alt of Elliot, to tease and play with it yet one more time. 

Having said all that I much preferred the Dolly/Tobias part of the episode and the journey of both Dolly and Elliott to find their way to one another.

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On 11/5/2019 at 11:19 AM, blixie said:

I definitely think this is true, but I think this show has always worked in unreliable narrator territory. What we know is there is a guy named Tyrell who actually exists, but there may well be a Tyrell personality as well, especially since the third personality appears to be new. I don't mind the show playing with the idea without ever confirming, because IMO given it's structure it can't and doesn't want to "confirm" anything.  It's what made me love the show and love S2 most of all, the idea of playing in a malleable, uncertain reality, that there are alternate ones that are possible, reachable, the way technology has played a role in the numerous realities. 

I think that also explains how and why Tyrell has never been fully fleshed out, we aren't supposed to care about him, in and of himself, we are only supposed to engage and invest to the degree that Elliot engages and invests, with whatever he needs Tyrell to be.  I'm not trying to say it's not bad writing per se only that it works for me as is because I don't care about Tyrell on his own and my favorite season is the one he isn't in, and that Elliot himself is backgrounded in.  

I definitely don't get why Esmail would bring him back here unless it was to pull on that thread that he's an alt of Elliot, to tease and play with it yet one more time. 

I've been on board with the Tyrelliot theory since season 1. While I agree that Tyrell hasn't been as fleshed out as I would have hoped for, in a way, I feel like first season gave us more of a glimpse into his life than Elliot's. We saw his home and work life and how he spent his free time.

One thing that really stood out to me in support of the idea that Elliot could be an alter of Tyrell's was the research that Elliot did into Tyrell's life. Elliot is able to learn about Tyrell and sees pictures of him with Joanna. When Elliot goes to do a search on himself he doesn't find anything. It's as if he doesn't exist and Elliot actually makes note of how strange this is. 

Regarding the three characters walking in the woods, Tyrell seems like the leader in these scenes and Elliot and Mr. Robot are almost tagging along. Mr. Robot and Elliot actually get angry at Tyrell for choosing to head in the direction they went. They think it's his fault that they're lost (as if they have no agency). Elliot says that they wouldn't be there if it weren't for Tyrell. Later in the episode you have the camera kind of focusing on Tyrell leading the group towards the van with Elliot and Mr. Robot walking on either side of him. It's a small thing but visually it feels supportive of the idea that Mr. Robot and Elliot are alter egos of Tyrell. 

The scene in the convenience store--I agree with those who can see how it seemed like she was only talking to Tyrell. 

Regarding Tyrell noticing that Elliot wears the same thing every day--on one hand it can be interpreted as Elliot not giving a shit about what other people think. OTOH I can see it being a clue that Elliot has something in common with another alter ego. Mr. Robot always wears the same clothes everyday too. Between the three characters, Tyrell is the only one who changes his clothes everyday like your average person.

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1 minute ago, Avaleigh said:

I've been on board with the Tyrelliot theory since season 1. While I agree that Tyrell hasn't been as fleshed out as I would have hoped for, in a way, I feel like first season gave us more of a glimpse into his life than Elliot's. We saw his home and work life and how he spent his free time.

One thing that really stood out to me in support of the idea that Elliot could be an alter of Tyrell's was the research that Elliot did into Tyrell's life. Elliot is able to learn about Tyrell and sees pictures of him with Joanna. When Elliot goes to do a search on himself he doesn't find anything. It's as if he doesn't exist and Elliot actually makes note of how strange this is. 

Regarding the three characters walking in the woods, Tyrell seems like the leader in these scenes and Elliot and Mr. Robot are almost tagging along. Mr. Robot and Elliot actually get angry at Tyrell for choosing to head in the direction they went. They think it's his fault that they're lost (as if they have no agency). Elliot says that they wouldn't be there if it weren't for Tyrell. Later in the episode you have the camera kind of focusing on Tyrell leading the group towards the van with Elliot and Mr. Robot walking on either side of him. It's a small thing but visually it feels supportive of the idea that Mr. Robot and Elliot are alter egos of Tyrell. 

The scene in the convenience store--I agree with those who can see how it seemed like she was only talking to Tyrell. 

Regarding Tyrell noticing that Elliot wears the same thing every day--on one hand it can be interpreted as Elliot not giving a shit about what other people think. OTOH I can see it being a clue that Elliot has something in common with another alter ego. Mr. Robot always wears the same clothes everyday too. Between the three characters, Tyrell is the only one who changes his clothes everyday like your average person.

Thank  you, @Avaleigh.
If it turns out we are correct about Tyrelliot, do you have any plans to celebrate? 😊
 

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2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

We saw his home and work life and how he spent his free time.

We saw all of those things about Elliot in Season 1. Elliot's full backstory wasn't initially shown because they had to keep the element of surprise for the viewers when one, we learned Darlene was his sister and more importantly he completely forgot she existed.

And two, of course, that Mr. Robot didn't really exist but was in his head and was in the image of his father before he died. But we still learned and saw a lot about Elliot in Season 1 - his lifelong friendship with Angela, his prior mental hospital stay, why he was in therapy with Krista, his drug addiction, working at AllSafe, his abusive mother, his guilt about his father and that complicated history, etc. 

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

When Elliot goes to do a search on himself he doesn't find anything. It's as if he doesn't exist and Elliot actually makes note of how strange this is. 

I would have to go find the episodes again but I'm almost certain this is revealed when Elliot is remembering all the things he'd forgotten or putting things together, like Mr. Robot not being real, etc. And I could swear he remembers that HE deleted himself as some paranoid precaution because of his hacking. That he made himself a virtual ghost. 

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding the three characters walking in the woods, Tyrell seems like the leader in these scenes and Elliot and Mr. Robot are almost tagging along.

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It's a small thing but visually it feels supportive of the idea that Mr. Robot and Elliot are alter egos of Tyrell. 

And yet that would dispute what we've seen for the previous three seasons in that Tyrell has always been irreverent and almost in awe of and following Elliot. Tyrell has never been portrayed as the leader in that relationship and instead has always deferred to Elliot. To Elliot's plans, to wanting Elliot's approval, etc.

There was the whole scene where the Dark Army assassin was breaking him down and he ultimately confessed to being loyal only to Elliot. The scene in Season 3 when Elliot takes back control and wants to stop Phase II and Tyrell seems confused and hurt that Elliot would want to change his mind. How he apologizes profusely for shooting Elliot.

And even in this episode, the big dramatic moment of his demanding if Elliot was ever his friend or liked him. Nothing about Tyrell and Elliot's relationship has ever indicated that Tyrell is the one in the power position or the leader. Which is another big flaw in the theory that Tyrell is the one who exists and Elliot never did. 

Even if one wants to argue that Elliot, as a schizophrenic, essentially disappeared and created Tyrell who existed for years with this whole other life, only for Elliot to show up again, looking for a job that Angela helps him get, so in essence he has these two alternate lives happening, there is still way too much that just does not add up or make sense in that. Did Angela and Darlene lose touch with him for years as he climbed the E-Corp ladder as Tyrell Wellick?

At most I am willing to consider that Tyrell existed but that latter season Tyrell is an alter of Elliot's like Mr. Robot is the image of his dead father. And I don't know, maybe Tyrell died in Season 3. But the notion that Tyrell was always an alter or that Elliot is the alter or anything of that seems like a massive stretch to me. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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At most I am willing to consider that Tyrell existed but that latter season Tyrell is an alter of Elliot's like Mr. Robot is the image of his dead father. And I don't know, maybe Tyrell died in Season 3. But the notion that Tyrell was always an alter or that Elliot is the alter or anything of that seems like a massive stretch to me. 

Yeah that's where I'm at. The Tyrell we just saw in the woods never felt wholly real to me and I can absolutely see Elliot wanting to re-connect resurrect Tyrell before he heads into a final battle with White Rose. It makes little sense that the Tyrell we saw last year who had all his illusions about Elliott destroyed would so gladly walk right back into the frey.

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6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Thank  you, @Avaleigh.
If it turns out we are correct about Tyrelliot, do you have any plans to celebrate? 😊

I'm not holding my breath that we're correct but some champagne might be in order lol.

The two biggest obstacles for me regarding this theory are why Tyrell has been kept in the background for every season since season 1. The other thing that has thrown me is killing off both Joanna and Angela. I thought they would both be essential to the big Tyrelliot reveal and now I'm basically relying on Darlene for the big pay off and I'm not sure that will be enough.

I've always thought it was odd that Tyrell and Darlene haven't had any scenes together. (Unless I'm misremembering?)

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

And yet that would dispute what we've seen for the previous three seasons in that Tyrell has always been irreverent and almost in awe of and following Elliot. Tyrell has never been portrayed as the leader in that relationship and instead has always deferred to Elliot. To Elliot's plans, to wanting Elliot's approval, etc.

There was the whole scene where the Dark Army assassin was breaking him down and he ultimately confessed to being loyal only to Elliot. The scene in Season 3 when Elliot takes back control and wants to stop Phase II and Tyrell seems confused and hurt that Elliot would want to change his mind. How he apologizes profusely for shooting Elliot.

And even in this episode, the big dramatic moment of his demanding if Elliot was ever his friend or liked him. Nothing about Tyrell and Elliot's relationship has ever indicated that Tyrell is the one in the power position or the leader. Which is another big flaw in the theory that Tyrell is the one who exists and Elliot never did. 

Re: Tyrell not being in a position of power or Elliot being in control--

My impression is that Tyrell has been having an ongoing struggle with his personalities since day one. I think he wants the Elliot personality to succeed because Elliot is the one who wants to do good things but it's an ongoing struggle because part of Tyrell is a power seeker who is willing to do almost anything to achieve his goals. I think this is a big part of why Elliot has been taking the lead as the chief personality. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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Irving was holding Tyrell at the farmhouse where multiple people saw him (including a cop), while Elliot was working at E-Corp where people saw him everyday. So there is no way (at that time) that Tyrell was Elliot's alter.  

Further, Elliot cannot be Tryell's alter because when Elliot started working at E-Corp, they accepted him as Elliot, otherwise they would have recognized him as Tyrell.

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On 10/31/2019 at 1:03 AM, truthaboutluv said:

Yes, there are metaphors galore and Email's writing is definitely some of the most intelligent television writing I've ever seen but that doesn't mean everything is some deep, complex, twisted mind fuck.

Yes to this. I actually loved this episode and felt that metaphorically it was exactly what it seemed to be - all the characters are lost in their own personal woods and need to find their way out. And that way out involves connecting with other people, not isolating themselves in their own personal purgatories. 

Elliot, Tyrell, Darlene, Dom have all been directed down the wrong path and ended up nowhere. They are neither as anonymous, unimportant or as special as they think they are. And they constantly underestimate the people around them because even after everything they still think they're the smartest, most switched-on people in the room. 

Esmail loves his religious allegory but I never feel like it gets cliched or preachy or overwhelms anything. And nothing could be more Gethsemane than Tyrell's storyline in this episode. He's always followed Elliot as the Chosen One and yet he's the one who had a crisis in the garden and then sacrificed himself. I also loved how his ?final? words were allusions to Scott, "I'm going out now, I may be some time".

PS I never understood how people could think Tyrell and Elliot were the same person, sorry

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