S06.E04: There Will Be Blood

[Trini]

Quote

HALLOWEEN EPISODE - Barry's efforts to prepare Cisco for Crisis are derailed when Cisco schemes to save Barry's life instead. Meanwhile, Ramsey Rosso (guest star Sendhil Ramamurthy) uses his deadly new abilities to save his own life, while sacrificing his humanity in the process.

Marcus Stokes directed the episode written by Lauren Certo & Sterling Gates.

Airdate: 10/29/2019

[scarynikki12]

New Wells, Barry, and Cisco were hilarious together. 

Never thought I’d ever enjoy Ralph but he and Iris are excellent friends. 

[phoenics]

I ... feel really betrayed by this writing.

They have elevated the feelings of this team to the same level as Barry's WIFE.  I am struggling SO hard with the narrative here. 

Now in this episode, Barry and Iris seem to have completely come to terms with Barry dying - but Iris seems unfazed?  In the premiere, Iris nearly broke at the end of the episode saying "Please Barry, I can't lose you TOO" when she thought Barry wasn't coming out of the black hole.

Iris and Barry - who haven't been married long in the grand scheme of things - should be trying to spend as much time as possible together.  They should be trying to make a baby so Nora will still be born.  Instead they haven't had any solo scenes in 2 whole episodes.

In the last episode, KF was there.  Same thing happened at the beginning with this episode - with KF acting more like a heavily made up Caitlin than KF.

Then, to add insult to injury, we have Ralph bitching at Iris and telling her she should be spending every waking moment with her husband.  And before that - Iris looks like she's trying to hang around to make sure he's "okay" about Barry.  WTF.

I mean - WTF.  The writers craft this ass backwards story where Iris is acting OOC and then have Ralph bash her for it.

Notice that NOT ONE of Team Effing Flash has asked Iris how she's doing?  WHAT THE EFF?!?!  And we're supposed to think Team Flash is "like family" to them?  They aren't!!!  KF walks up to Iris and asks about RALPH.

I'm so pissed.

I am nearly raging at how the writers have made TF as important to Barry in the writing as his wife.  I cannot think of another Arrowverse show that would have an OTP acting like this.  Instead - the story is all about putting the team first.

I'm furious.

The only decent part of the episode was Bloodwork - but the Flash and KF stuff just feels like they neutered Vibe so they could shove Flashfrost down our throats every week while we don't get any WestAllen at all.  Especially since KF is now just Caitlin + powers.  She doesn't act like a separate personality at all.  LOL - the writers finally got what they wanted and now instead of pushing that crackship, they just pair Flash and KF every week.

Iris looks like a bit player hovering around the perimeter when she should be front and center.  

Joe's reaction felt real - but that no one seems to even consider how Iris might feel just feels par for the course for how black women get treated.  But then Barry acts like Joe preceded Iris too - this writing is garbage.

I hate it when shows make me as a black woman feel like I don't matter and that my feelings are invisible.

As a fan I feel hoodwinked.  Black showrunner my ass.

Oh, so next week Barry remembers he has a wife and then takes her offscreen for time alone?!?!  WTF SHOW!

[mtlchick]

Look it's bad enough when Grant turns on the waterworks.  But then he does it with Jesse and I'm in a enclosed room with chopped up onions.  Why am I crying?!

So is Caitlin going to remain in her KF look from now on?  I'm really confused by this. 

[bluemm]

Did Cisco use his bare hand to grab the serum canister sitting in a container set at -15deg? Twice?

[SimoneS]

I was disappointed with last week's episode and feel the same about this week's. I am sick of the crisis, the surrounding drama, and the constant waterworks. The crying in every episode until the crisis has gotten old already. I have grown to like Ralph, but even he was annoying with the moping.

I honestly don't get how sanguine Team Flash is about Barry's impending "death." I would have found it far more believable and interesting if they were meeting behind Barry's back and brainstorming a plan to save Barry.

I liked Cisco's determination stealing the vial, but then he backs down instead of insisting that they find a way to save Barry and the planet. I would have preferred seeing Cisco sneak into Ramsey's lab and steal the rest of the serum. 

Surprisingly, I like Nash Wells. He feels like a fresh take on Harrison Wells. I would have liked some follow up with the eterinum that he found on Iris last week.

Edited October 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[SevenStars]

Usually I try to see where the writers are going with a story, even when I disagree with it but I can't when it comes to Iris "story" in this episode.

I really, really hated the writing for Iris in this episode. In this episode, Iris was basically the epitome of the "strong black woman" ugly and hurtful trope that writers love to put upon characters who are black woman. 

Iris is losing her HUSBAND AND BEST FRIEND. Someone who has been in her life for most of her life. But NOT ONE PERSON have botherd to asked her how she is doing. Not her Stepmom, not her Dad, not her so called friends,  no one. 

Instead, we get one of her so called friend judging her harshly for trying to be there for him and helping him. We get her going back for more rude and jerk behavior from stupid ass Ralph. And if she hadn't continue to be so freaking concern about him, she wouldn't have even gotten a stupid weak ass apology. Like he wasn't even the one to go after her, after she sent her Dad to help him, after he was so totally rude to her. 

To top it off, the one time it seems like someone was coming to comfort her, instead they were just concern about how Ralph was handling the fact that Iris was going to lose her husband, best friend, and the love her life.

Jesse and Grant was great in their scenes but I'm so pissed off about the writing for Iris that I can't even fully appreciate it. 

[bettername2come]

All right, we had some very well-acted man pain. Good emotion from all the guys about Barry's death and I have a new favorite Joe/Barry hug. I liked Cisco's determination and him getting more focus. I don't know what they're doing with KF. It seems like they want to just blend them but they spent so much time separating them that they can't just do that. And there's been times where Caitlin makes more sense - her dialog was mostly Caitlin-esque and her medical skills would've made more sense once people were down. 

Iris needs more focus. I could understand her being strong for Barry, but it might be a good time to explore her friendship with Cisco and Ralph and have her lean on them some. 

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I honestly don't get how sanguine Team Flash is about Barry's impending "death." I would have found it far more believable and interesting if they were meeting behind Barry's back and brainstorming a plan to save Barry.

Honestly, I would buy this. They seem to have really bought into the "Barry Allen Must Die" aspect though and I can't say I blame them.

[UNOSEZ]

Damn it show... That Barry/Joe scene.. I'm still wiping my eyes... I dont even remember what I had to say about the episode anymore... I'll be back later... Damn Joe/Barry Damn

[UNOSEZ]

How do you save someone from a wave of antimatter anyway.. Also how does Barry( ahem I mean the flash)  dying stop the wave of antimatter.. As others have pointed out the writing for iris just feels weird.. Last week I said maybe West-Allen are just numb.. But if that's how they were gonna play it.. Then maybe have a friend at least bring up how creepy calm they are about this.. and I was hyper-sensitive about how Iris would be portrayed after reading a really well put together piece about last years crossover and the ensuing #elseworldssowhite drama.... 

Here the link.. Good lengthy read 

http://www.withanaccent.com/2019/01/11/we-need-to-talk-about-elseworldssowhite/

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

How do you save someone from a wave of antimatter anyway.. Also how does Barry( ahem I mean the flash)  dying stop the wave of antimatter.. As others have pointed out the writing for iris just feels weird.. Last week I said maybe West-Allen are just numb.. But if that's how they were gonna play it.. Then maybe have a friend at least bring up how creepy calm they are about this.. and I was hyper-sensitive about how Iris would be portrayed after reading a really well put together piece about last years crossover and the ensuing #elseworldssowhite drama.... 

Here the link.. Good lengthy read 

http://www.withanaccent.com/2019/01/11/we-need-to-talk-about-elseworldssowhite/

I read that last season.  She must be having a field day with the current content.

[SimoneS]

I will say that I am enjoying Ramsey. His descent into madness and a classic comic villain has been entertaining. I was glad that Barry figured it out quickly. I am looking forward to seeing Ramsey wreck havoc on Central City. 

[SevenStars]

Iris desperately need a friend, and since the writers refuse to give her one outside of TF, I was hopping that Ralph would have become that. Hartley and Candice have great chemistry and work really well together. So I was hopping that Ralph and Iris would have been the friend that they both need. Iris wouldn't have to always be strong and saint like with Ralph. That she would be allow to have a friend, outside of Barry, who she could be open honest about her feelings and stuff. And Ralph would feel the same way. Barry get to have that with Cisco. I need Iris to have that. 

This arc is the perfect time to have shown this developing friendship and bond. Instead we get the same old, Iris trying to be there for Ralph, even while she is hurting and Ralph being a jerk. 

I hate that I keep harpy on this but this really disappointed me. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I've read the comments. I do agree it would be nice to see someone be there for Iris and get her POV

However, about Barry and Iris being numb, I don't think they are. From a writing perspective, Barry and Iris have come to terms with Barry's death. They have accepted it. That is what we got back in 6x02, especially at the end. In my opinion, they're not numb, they just accepted his fate.

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Iris desperately need a friend, and since the writers refuse to give her one outside of TF, I was hopping that Ralph would have become that. Hartley and Candice have great chemistry and work really well together. So I was hopping that Ralph and Iris would have been the friend that they both need. Iris wouldn't have to always be strong and saint like with Ralph. That she would be allow to have a friend, outside of Barry, who she could be open honest about her feelings and stuff. And Ralph would feel the same way. Barry get to have that with Cisco. I need Iris to have that. 

This arc is the perfect time to have shown this developing friendship and bond. Instead we get the same old, Iris trying to be there for Ralph, even while she is hurting and Ralph being a jerk. 

I hate that I keep harpy on this but this really disappointed me. 

I'm furious about it and it should be harped on.  It's horrible writing and it's just beyond the pale.

As a fan - I'm supposed to buy that TF is "family" yet not one of them has seemed concerned about Iris at all.  When KF appeared behind Iris I was sure she was gonna ask how Iris was holding up.  Instead she asks about Ralph.

LOL - I literally feel punked by this writing.  Completely punked.  Like - WTF.

[quarks]

1. This Wells is a definite improvement over the last couple of Wellses.

2. Jesse Martin remains one of the best parts of this show, even when I have issues with Joe.

3. Cisco, if you are going to hide a secret cold thingy, maybe don't hide it in a fridge labelled with the exact temperature the cold thingy needs.

[phoenics]

28 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I've read the comments. I do agree it would be nice to see someone be there for Iris and get her POV

However, about Barry and Iris being numb, I don't think they are. From a writing perspective, Barry and Iris have come to terms with Barry's death. They have accepted it. That is what we got back in 6x02, especially at the end. In my opinion, they're not numb, they just accepted his fate.

Well if they have - does it make sense that Iris would have accepted that Barry is gonna die and now Nora will never be born?

Considering her fear choked comments at the end of the premiere about losing them both, this just feels jarring. Watch neither Barry nor Iris mention Nora again.

[SimoneS]

I don't buy that Iris (or the rest of Team) would be so easily accepting about Barry's "death," but lets say that they have, Barry only has a few months, how come he and Iris aren't talking about getting pregnant before it is too late. It is the first thing that I would expect a married couple in love to discuss, especially one that has met their adult daughter.

I was stuck by how much older Grant looks this season. He has lost his boyish look. It is probably a combination of aging and vaping.

Edited October 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[phoenics]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I don't buy that Iris (or the rest of Team) would be so easily accepting about Barry's "death," but lets say that they have, Barry only has a few months, how come he and Iris aren't talking about getting pregnant before it is too late. It is the first thing that I would expect a married couple in love to discuss, especially one that has met their adult daughter.

I was stuck by how much older Grant looks this season. He has lost his boyish look. It is probably a combination of aging and vaping.

That's what I've been saying too - and it's not even a few months.  It's literally down to a month and 12 days.  Thassit.  Crisis is Dec 10.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Iris was so upset in the premiere at the thought of losing Barry - saying she couldn't lose him too.  She's still getting over what happened to Nora and yet we're supposed to buy that she's accepted that Barry is dying and that she won't even have Nora to console herself?

Did the writers forget they wrote all that?  Or are they so busy meeting the demands of fans who think that Iris had too much prominence that this trash writing is what comes out?  I have never seen a show work so hard to ignore its best assets and prop up characters and storylines no one gives AF about.

This show needs black women writers.  Clearly a black showrunner isn't enough to overcome the structural racism built into the show's fabric at this point.

[UNOSEZ]

2 minutes ago, phoenics said:

That's what I've been saying too - and it's not even a few months.  It's literally down to a month and 12 days.  Thassit.  Crisis is Dec 10.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Iris was so upset in the premiere at the thought of losing Barry - saying she couldn't lose him too.  She's still getting over what happened to Nora and yet we're supposed to buy that she's accepted that Barry is dying and that she won't even have Nora to console herself?

Did the writers forget they wrote all that?  Or are they so busy meeting the demands of fans who think that Iris had too much prominence that this trash writing is what comes out?  I have never seen a show work so hard to ignore its best assets and prop up characters and storylines no one gives AF about.

This show needs black women writers.  Clearly a black showrunner isn't enough to overcome the structural racism built into the show's fabric at this point.

Iris... Talia... Zoe.. Hell even Wanda(?)  Hawke all went thru something tonight that just works to better the lives of the white folks ( mainly women)  around them

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I don't buy that Iris (or the rest of Team) would be so easily accepting about Barry's "death," but lets say that they have, Barry only has a few months, how come he and Iris aren't talking about getting pregnant before it is too late. It is the first thing that I would expect a married couple in love to discuss, especially one that has met their adult daughter.

I was stuck by how much older Grant looks this season. He has lost his boyish look. It is probably a combination of aging and vaping.

I'd love the twist that Barry finds out that everyone's working behind the scenes to try to find a way to save him. I get Barry accepting his fate, but definitely not Iris. I think she'd be wanting to find a way to save him. Although, if we see her try to sex him up, then we'll know that she's accepting of his fate! 

All jokes aside, all Iris writing annoyances set aside, I did enjoy the episode. I think I like the fact that things are moving quickly. The Ramsey stuff is already out in the open. The team is already working on their emotions on Crisis. 

I really liked the Joe/Barry scene at the end. It got me crying, and The Flash hasn't gotten me to cry in a while.

Hartley Sawyer and Candice Patton seem to work well together when they are allowed scenes. I wish the Ralph/Iris stuff was more even, but I hope this was more to get Ralph's reaction out of the way sooner, similar to KF's reaction. They aren't the most important reactions, after all.

I liked the descent of Ramsey. I like that we saw him completely embrace his villain side all because he wants to live forever.  

Also, Nash Wells is fantastic. I'm really enjoying this new Wells. It only took a few seasons to get another great version. I laughed at his scenes with Cisco and Barry.

I liked the Cisco/Barry scenes as well. I thought they were strong, especially considering that they've dropped the ball on Cisco/Barry scenes as of late. 

I am really enjoying this season so far.

[phoenics]

Can I mention something else?

I loved the scene with Barry and Joe - until they retconned that Joe was there for Barry before even Iris was.

That's just ... untrue.  Iris knew Barry a long time before Joe came into the picture.  Plus she believed in him when Joe didn't.  Not to diminish Joe - but that retcon wasn't even necessary.

It just feels like the writing is going out of its way to diminish Iris' importance and to elevate other characters to be at her level or higher (in Joe's case).  I know they don't really mean Joe is more important to Barry than Iris but it feels like they're trying to retcon all the "We are the Flash" stuff that angered the fanboys - but all I'm seeing right now in the writing is a complete caving in to the hateful parts of the fandom that dragged Iris/CP for 5 seasons.

I finally figured out what was making me feel uneasy about the writing in the last 2 episodes:  little by little the narrative is diminishing Iris' importance and elevating others - others who seem disconnected from Iris and not concerned at all about her.

Edited October 30, 2019 by phoenics

[adora721]

Why would Barry go to Cisco, a Mechanical Engineer, to work on a cure for a medical condition? Wouldn't it be more logical to um...ask a Geneticist and a medical doctor? Where, oh, where can they find one of those??

[RedVitC]

While I can't say I feel really good about how things are playing out, my take away from this episode was actually that Iris behavior is written like this with a purpose. I didn't see Ralph saying that to her as a diss, but as the writing shining light that hey, Iris is acting strange for a woman whose husband she thinks will die in a month and a bit, something is clearly up. And planting a seed. It's not much, but I admit the idea that this sticking her head in the sand is part of her reacting arc does make me feel calmer

[Lantern7]

So . . . much . . . manpain.

Yeah, I know, both genders are feeling the pain, but Barry seems more broken up than usual. And his effort to save one yutz with  terminal illness leads to a lot of dead people and a new villain. Hell, the last forty days (episode supposed to take place on Halloween, so 30 days of November + 10 days in December = 40) could have our heroes either not getting out of bed, or engaging in advanced hedonism. I mean, I don't think "Frost" (or at least the persona) has ever had physical relationships, and Ralph has probably been wanted to see how enlongated he could get. Also, wall-banging Olicity-level sex between Barry and Iris. Hey, once Arrow is gone, The Flash would be the senior series, and then we'd have some wild stuff. Yeah, probably not. And there's probably problems with those running the show.

Shit, Barry could have told Ramsey that there might not be a future, and he might blink out of existence before his disease takes him out. Ramsey's abilities seem inspired by Morbius over at Marvel, though the temporary puppet zombies are a nice twist.

Joe/Barry scene . . . damn.

Nash Wells continues to do Wells stuff while being a pain in the ass. That sounds about right.

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

How do you save someone from a wave of antimatter anyway.

Maybe they could call Alex Luthor from Earth-3. #CrisisReference #NerdShitStuckInMyHead

[adora721]

The hyprocrisy of Barry taking Cisco to task for his choice to steal the cure, but he's never taken Cait to task for trying to help murder his wife.

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

While I can't say I feel really good about how things are playing out, my take away from this episode was actually that Iris behavior is written like this with a purpose. I didn't see Ralph saying that to her as a diss, but as the writing shining light that hey, Iris is acting strange for a woman whose husband she thinks will die in a month and a bit, something is clearly up. And planting a seed. It's not much, but I admit the idea that this sticking her head in the sand is part of her reacting arc does make me feel calmer

But it is a diss.  Ralph isn't treating her as a human being.  That's a horrible thing to say to someone in Iris' position.  I cannot imagine someone who is supposedly "family" <insert my eyes rolling back into my head that Team Flash is "family" in any way given how they treat Iris> coming at Iris like that.  None of my friends-fam would treat me that way.  They'd ask me if I was okay and gently ask how I was feeling.  I don't care how choked up they were about my husband dying.  

This writing is so dehumanizing to Iris.

If the writing is trying to show that Iris is oddly calm about this, it's failing.  The writing showed what "oddly calm" looks like in the premiere.  This isn't like that at all.  This is just ... wrong.

[adora721]

Ramsey Rosso is an idiot of epic proportions! He knows epinephrine is the bonding agent and he needs blood. Duh! There's synthetic epinephrine doofus! No need to kill anyone.

The writers just lost all credibility. Who doesn't know there's synthetic adrenaline? It's in every epi pen and readily available to a medical doctor like Rosso.

Edited October 30, 2019 by adora721

[cdnalor]

I don't know much about writing but I suspect Iris' big emotional moment with Barry is being saved for a later episode just before the climax.  They're just getting the other characters' Emmy-worthy scenes out of the way first.

[cdnalor]

6 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The writers just lost all credibility

The S.S. Credibility is a ship that sailed a long time ago on this show logic-wise.

[adora721]

Wow! Another scene with KF and Iris and they don't make eye contact! It's should be a meme.

Love Ralph for always apologizing to Iris. He's a better person than Caity Killer Frost.

[adora721]

Did Joe even cry this much when he learned Iris was dying? And retconning Joe being the reason Barry is the Flash is shameful.

[scarynikki12]

19 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Ramsey Rosso is an idiot of epic proportions! He knows epinephrine is the bonding agent and he needs blood. Duh! There's synthetic epinephrine doofus!

"You're a doctor! Write yourself a prescription for an EpiPen! It even has a generic now! For fuck's sake call it in to my pharmacy and I'll fill the damn prescription for you!" I may have shouted these things at the tv.

21 minutes ago, adora721 said:

No need to kill anyone.

But it's truly just an excuse to kill people and make them his zombies. Sorry, Rosso, serial killers negate your pretty face.

[RedVitC]

On to other stuff

-I like the new Wells

- Acting in that last scene with  Joe and Barry was fantastic,

- But overall the scene left me puzzled with what they were trying to say. I know they're not saying that Joe is more important to Barry, but that is what it ended up feeling like and coupled with some of their other choices I disliked it too much to get lost in the emotion. It's just an odd choice to make emotionally, especially in the lead up to Barry's death.

I'm also not sure what they meant about Joe being one of the biggest reasons Barry could become the Flash. I think sometimes they forget that while amazing, yes, Joe and Barry's relationship wasn't always this idealized thing. In the pilot it seemed clear that Joe and Barry fought about Barry thinking he saw the man in yellow and that that was a bit of an issue between them growing up. Iris was the one who always believed in Barry. I don't know, I'm probably way overthinking this. He probably meant in some kind of inspiration way about being brave and keeping going or something. (but even then, how many speeches have we had about Iris being Barry's strength to keep going?).

I can rationalize it, but in the end, I just didn't like it.

-About the above, I didn't mean Ralph's comment about Iris wasn't mean, clearly it was, which is why they had him apologize, but  (I think) the purpose of the writers putting in that line wasn't because they wanted to be mean to Iris, but that they wanted someone to point out that Iris is running around doing random things (like last week, and this week again) instead of spending time with Barry (if he was actually available...). Could they have done it by Ralph asking why she was doing this in a nice way? Yes, that absolutely would have been better, but I'm focusing on what I think the purpose of the line is overall. But that's just my take on what they were trying to do. Not saying it makes it all better, but for me personally, it helps a little

[Jediknight]

Joe is the best father in the Beeboverse.

[phoenics]

33 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

On to other stuff

-I like the new Wells

- Acting in that last scene with  Joe and Barry was fantastic,

- But overall the scene left me puzzled with what they were trying to say. I know they're not saying that Joe is more important to Barry, but that is what it ended up feeling like and coupled with some of their other choices I disliked it too much to get lost in the emotion. It's just an odd choice to make emotionally, especially in the lead up to Barry's death.

I'm also not sure what they meant about Joe being one of the biggest reasons Barry could become the Flash. I think sometimes they forget that while amazing, yes, Joe and Barry's relationship wasn't always this idealized thing. In the pilot it seemed clear that Joe and Barry fought about Barry thinking he saw the man in yellow and that that was a bit of an issue between them growing up. Iris was the one who always believed in Barry. I don't know, I'm probably way overthinking this. He probably meant in some kind of inspiration way about being brave and keeping going or something. (but even then, how many speeches have we had about Iris being Barry's strength to keep going?).

I can rationalize it, but in the end, I just didn't like it.

-About the above, I didn't mean Ralph's comment about Iris wasn't mean, clearly it was, which is why they had him apologize, but  (I think) the purpose of the writers putting in that line wasn't because they wanted to be mean to Iris, but that they wanted someone to point out that Iris is running around doing random things (like last week, and this week again) instead of spending time with Barry (if he was actually available...). Could they have done it by Ralph asking why she was doing this in a nice way? Yes, that absolutely would have been better, but I'm focusing on what I think the purpose of the line is overall. But that's just my take on what they were trying to do. Not saying it makes it all better, but for me personally, it helps a little

I don't think you are overthinking the Joe/Barry chat diminishing Iris.  Like I said - for the last few episodes with the dubbing mistakes and other things like the flashbacks elevating odd team members up to Iris' level - this was just one more thing in a pile on of things that ultimately resulted in diminishing Iris.

Once or twice is a mistake - this is ... something else.

I might be able to forgive this if we'd gotten a solo #WestAllen scene - but we haven't gotten that for 2 whole episodes.  Instead, we've gotten two episodes of KF/Flash getting multiple solo scenes.  Even Cisco/Barry didn't get multiple solo scenes across both episodes like KF/Flash.

CP is still 2nd billed.  Right now it's almost like she's not really there.  It's almost like they've decided to cut her screentime because she'll be in the crossover - when that doesn't happen to any of the other female leads when they join the crossovers.

Iris shouldn't look like a bit player in all of this and her grief shouldn't be confined to one "very special episode" like she's the same level as the other folks.

Thank God for CP adding some tears to that scene at the beginning (did she even get a speaking line there?) - we wouldn't know this was impacting her at all.

Also - I really think CP/GG should be glued together in scenes where they appear together.  They need to touch each other more - even if it's as simple as holding hands and parting reluctantly when they go off to do their thing.

I keep thinking of Roswell (the OG Roswell) or Riverdale or even Arrow and I cannot imagine the shows' OTPs not even touching under circumstances like this.  There is a scene at the end of OG Roswell's S1 where the female lead (Liz Parker) doesn't have a speaking line AT all, but she's holding hands with Max and then when they part so he can have a chat with the Sheriff, they break apart with their hands holding onto each other before finally letting go.  This took literally seconds, but it was so effective at showing how connected they were.

I mourn we aren't getting that kind of stuff in the lead up to Crisis.

Edited October 30, 2019 by phoenics

[Katsullivan]

Gosh what a shitty episode. So much for all the hype. It's the same ol' same ol' racist ass writing. 

[phoenics]

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Gosh what a shitty episode. So much for all the hype. It's the same ol' same ol' racist ass writing. 

I'm really sitting here trying to think of a show with a white female lead where she's treated like CP/Iris is.  Even with a black showrunner.

The only thing that might explain this is they intentionally cut some of CP's load because she's in Crisis.  But weird - GG's time hasn't been cut and we know he's all over Crisis.

So that's not it.

Guaranteed the new Superman show won't treat Lois like this.

[AnimeMania]

6 hours ago, bluemm said:

Did Cisco use his bare hand to grab the serum canister sitting in a container set at -15deg? Twice?

I like the part where he shoves it down his pants, I was waiting for "Little Cisco" to turn into a popsicle and then shatter into a million pieces.

[thuganomics85]

Seriously, Barry, I'm glad you actually didn't keep secrets this go around, but did you really expect Cisco to just shrug his shoulders and be okay with you dying?  Because he really seemed shocked by his friend's reaction here, which he really should have saw coming a mile away.

Ralph was being a dick to Iris (and I"m glad he apologized it), but him asking why Iris isn't spending every moment she can with Barry was noticeable.  It really does seem like the writers aren't actually focusing on how she feels and she seems way too okay with Barry's eventual "doom."  Are they afraid of making her too emotional or are they just back to not caring about her character and rather focus on the rest?  Kind of lame either way.

That said, damn, that Barry/Joe scene, though?  While the majority of the cast is really good, they really struck gold with Jesse L. Martin, because he really can bring so much and elevate almost everything.

Ramsey has gone into full-blown villain mode now, but they've already pulled the whole "he's escaped and will be back.. eventually" bit: probably because they could have Sendhil Ramamurthy for a certain amount of episodes, and they don't want to blow through them all yet!

Nash Wells is already better than the majority of the varied Wells from the more recent seasons.

While the cast continues to shine, all of the doom and gloom is already tiring.  Especially because Barry ain't actually dying (or at least not permanently), because this show is still the highest rated on on The CW, and the network ain't going to let it go anytime soon, I imagine.

[ottoDbusdriver]

So.  Many. Pep talks.

Edited October 30, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, adora721 said:

Did Joe even cry this much when he learned Iris was dying? And retconning Joe being the reason Barry is the Flash is shameful.

I believe what the creators were going for and what I got from this heart to heart.. Is that Barry took the lessons Joe gave him.. And the ones he picked up by osmosis and that created a big part of how Barry acts... Iris is the girl he loved and his best friend.. She's always believed and believed in him.. She's a source of strength an anchor and a lightning rod for him... Without either he's not the flash.. But I guess the baseline guy.. Who Barry Allen believes he should be is more informed by watching Joe (even when he was mad at Joe.. Even when Joe wasn't listening about Reverse Flash...)  And listening to his pearls of wisdom... Which also means they affected Iris.. So both of them have a huge thirst for truth and justice.. I'd say the majority portion of that comes from Joe.. The rest from the belief that something crazy happened to young Barry and only the two of them seem to believe it.... 

[SevenStars]

The fans who hated and complain about Iris being TF leader instead of Cisco can stop now because Barry personally pick Cisco to be the leader. 

It does feel like the writers are trying to "correct" things that a segment of the fandom have been hating Iris for. A segment I wanted them to ignore because that segment just hates that Iris exist in that skin. 

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong, so I'll wait and see.

[cdnalor]

11 hours ago, bluemm said:

Did Cisco use his bare hand to grab the serum canister sitting in a container set at -15deg? Twice?

-15 Celsius is 5 F, just a normal winter day in January so it's just like grabbing your car door handle without gloves.  As for sliding it down your pants like Cisco did, well I wouldn't do that but it's not dangerous.

[SevenStars]

10 hours ago, RedVitC said:

While I can't say I feel really good about how things are playing out, my take away from this episode was actually that Iris behavior is written like this with a purpose. I didn't see Ralph saying that to her as a diss, but as the writing shining light that hey, Iris is acting strange for a woman whose husband she thinks will die in a month and a bit, something is clearly up. And planting a seed. It's not much, but I admit the idea that this sticking her head in the sand is part of her reacting arc does make me feel calmer

I suspected that too. The problem is, that would explain why Iris is acting the way she is but it doesn't explain why the other characters are showing no concern or comfort for her. The characters showing concern and care for Iris would show and acknowledge their care for her. It would acknowledge that they see her as a human being who is about to lose her husband, best-friend and the chance to have the daughter she met and wanted. 

The same way that Iris has shown concern for them, even when they were acting like nothing was wrong with them. Even when they tried to push her away. She still ask them about their feelings. 

The way other characters are being written regarding Iris is really badly writen because it shows that these people are not going to be there for her in her time of need like she has been for them. 

So this is either really bad writing or the writers wants us to believe that these characters truly believe that a strong black woman doesn't need concern or comfort because she is inhumanly strong. Either way, the optic is ugly. 

[adora721]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I suspected that too. The problem is, that would explain why Iris is acting the way she is but it doesn't explain why the other characters are showing no concern or comfort for her. The characters showing concern and care for Iris would show and acknowledge their care for her. It would acknowledge that they see her as a human being who is about to lose her husband, best-friend and the chance to have the daughter she met and wanted. 

The same way that Iris has shown concern for them, even when they were acting like nothing was wrong with them. Even when they tried to push her away. She still ask them about their feelings. 

The way other characters are being written regarding Iris is really badly writen because it shows that these people are not going to be there for her in her time of need like she has been for them. 

So this is either really bad writing or the writers wants us to believe that these characters truly believe that a strong black woman doesn't need concern or comfort because she is inhumanly strong. Either way, the optic is ugly. 

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

It would acknowledge that they see her as a human being who is about to lose her husband, best-friend and the chance to have the daughter she met and wanted. 

But they don't. That's the problem.

I'm just so tired of this shitty show and shitty US TV and the way it lets racism seep into everything.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

How do you save someone from a wave of antimatter anyway.. Also how does Barry( ahem I mean the flash)  dying stop the wave of antimatter.. A

Barry claimed that he saw a billion possible futures and the only way to avoid catastrophe is if he dies, right? Maybe he should share more details about a) what he saw or b) how his dying avoids that catastrophe. Just sayin'.

I would imagine Barry's death (or "death") will be akin to what it was in comic-book Crisis:

The Big Bad, the Anti-Monitor, constructs an anti-matter cannon to destroy the remaining universes. Flash manages to destroy the cannon by running really fast around it.

[adora721]

On another note, I hope Iris is involved with Ralph's Sue Dearbon story. WA and Ralph/Sue are friends in the comics, and Caity Frost has nothing of value to teach Ralph about love. She's 0 for 2 in the love dept. and a poor judge of character.

[Starry]

The worst thing about the IrisRalph subplot was that Iris wasn't fazed by the fact that Ralph was right about her spending more time with Barry, she was just preoccupied with making sure he was doing fine. There was no acknowledgement in the narrative that while Ralph was a jerk about it he also did have a point. Instead the show framed his dickish behavior as a result of his own grief. That's why Iris didn't act like someone who learned something from Ralph ( about spending more time with the love of her life when he's about to die ), she was just satisfied that her friend was going to be okay. They used Iris as a plot device in Ralph's subplot which is a crappy thing to do when it's her husband who's dying. Another problem is that her investigation happened off screen and her journalism was reduced to exposition and info dump.

The rest of the episode was okay. Good moments with Bloodwork, Barry and Cisco, Barry and Joe* and Barry, Cisco and Nash. Frost was a competent meta partner as opposed to someone who needs to be taught a lesson every two seconds.

*I have mixed feelings about the dialogue in the BarryJoe scene though. And WTF at them telling Joe and Cecile about Crisis OFF SCREEN?

The problem is that the IrisRalph subplot was really bad ( for reasons others have already mentioned ) and since Iris is my favorite character alongside Barry what they did with her tainted the entire episode for me. Also, I am sadly not sure we're done with Ralph's POV.

I'd rather Iris be in denial or numb than be calm and accepting of Barry's fate. That's just dehumanizing. I do think that Iris will have a big breakdown but the lack of build-up is frustrating. They are falling into the same writing pitfalls they fell into in previous seasons when they sidelined Iris' POV and had other characters act unbothered or dismissive because they needed to wait until episode x to reveal that Iris was in love with Barry or that Nora was really mad at her because her future self had chipped her.

It wasn't lost on me that the male characters have had room to angst and have emotional breakdowns over Barry's fate while Iris is accepting, Cecile is a non-factor, Caitlin is asleep off screen and Frost is an icy character with a flimsy emotional connection to Barry. I like that they show men cry and be vulnerable but not when it comes at the expense of women which is what happened in this episode, especially when it comes to Iris.