S15.E03: The Rupture

[Morrigan2575]

Sam and Dean together with Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) work tirelessly to keep all of Hell from breaking loose. Castiel cannot forgive an arrogant betrayal

I hope it's OK that I started the thread. Surprised there wasn't one already.

Cut to the hospital with Ketch...damn it show stop trying to make Ketch happen.  Oh wait...he's dead? For real? Wow...now I feel bad for complaining about him.

Rowena sacrificed herself? I refuse to believe it! Rowena is just starting her next plan...becoming Queen of Hell!

Damn show really messed me up with Rowena. I hated her at first but she's really become one of my favorite recurring characters. I hate that she died.

The show is certainly wrapping up all the guest stars/recurring characters. They better not kill off Donna and Jody!

I was going to complain about Dean holding a grudge but, I realized it hasn't been that long (in show time) since Mary died. I can see why Dean is still angry with Castiel. I don't think it's warranted, Jack didn't go evil her made a mistake. Cas should have told The Boys about his concerns BUT, they've all made that mistake before.

[ILoveReading]

Dean looked pretty....otherwise I got nothing.

[bettername2come]

"Dibs on Samuel."

Same, Rowena. Same. You will be missed. 

[Aeryn13]

A third episode of a Season written by Berens that completely sucks? Check. At least they are consistent.

[Myrelle]

My comments on this one are in the B vs J thread.

All I'll say here is don't watch this one if you're a Dean fan.

[Casseiopeia]

[gonzosgirrl]

I hate Berens almost as much as I hate Dabb.

Canon-busting, ridiculous, melodramatic bull shit.

That's all I've got.

[S Cook Productions]

Man, I’m always in The minority, lol. I thought this was the best one so far this season. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Man, I’m always in The minority, lol. I thought this was the best one so far this season. 

I liked it too but, it broke my heart. It's too soon to start saying goodbye. Yet, they've given a farewell to Rowena and Kevin (last week).

[S Cook Productions]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I liked it too but, it broke my heart. It's too soon to start saying goodbye. Yet, they've given a farewell to Rowena and Kevin (last week).

And Ketch. And Belphegor...and kind of Cas too. It was so sad!

[BlueSapphire]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

My comments on this one are in the B vs J thread.

All I'll say here is don't watch this one if you're a Dean fan.

So are Deanfans who do watch and *gasp* like the episode not “true fans” then?  Because I’m a Deanfan and I’m going to watch it.

[gonzosgirrl]

It's too bad they ruined Rowena's last episode with the terrible ret-conning Dean and Sam's history with Cas. They not only threw Dean under the bus, they backed it up over him a couple times. 

And since when was Sam the closest thing to a witch they had? Their scenes were like some bad Samwena fan fiction. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And since when was Sam the closest thing to a witch they had? Their scenes were like some bad Samwena fan fiction. 

Am I really supposed to believe that Sam would be devastated over Rowena's death.   Because I didn't buy it. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, BlueSapphire said:

So are Deanfans who do watch and *gasp* like the episode not “true fans” then?  Because I’m a Deanfan and I’m going to watch it.

I'll amend my assessment.

Watch at your own risk if you're a Dean fan(see the B vs J thread if you want to know why).

[Ria]

I didn’t always like Rowena but she’s been the bright spot in this otherwise horrid season. I hope she’s not gone for good. Her falling into the pit in her bright dress while all around her was brown and dead-looking sums it up. 

[ILoveReading]

I will say one thing, Jensen continues to bring it.

He doesn't do anything half way.  He didn't hold back Dean's anger one bit.

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

And Ketch. And Belphegor...and kind of Cas too. It was so sad!

I expect Cas to be back before long. I think the finale will come down to the Brothers but, Cas will be there in the end.

I never liked Ketch so, I was just mostly shocked they killed him like that. It seemed pointless, could have just killed him in 1502. 

[bmoore4026]

Fare thee well, Rowena (for the upteenth time).  Fare thee well, BelphaJack, we barely knew ye.  And fare well for the millionth time, Cas.  The makers of this show love breaking up the trio and then putting them back only to make them break up again.  If this show doesn't end with the three of them on Fire Island, I'll be pissed.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I will say one thing, Jensen continues to bring it.

He doesn't do anything half way.  He didn't hold back Dean's anger one bit.

It would have been okay if they didn't act like Cas did nothing wrong.

But the way it was framed was simply a set-up for Dean to grovel for forgiveness to Cas at a later date-which was BS because Cas withheld info that would have allowed them to deal with the NougatBaby differently and maybe saved Mary's life-but that wouldn't fit with Berens' vision of Dean as The Bully at all-no matter the depth Jensen brings to his character.

I hope Dean never apologizes, but I'm sure he will because the Destiel fandom has been demanding it on social media since Mary died and Dean didn't handle it the way that they wanted him to.

[Jediknight]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And since when was Sam the closest thing to a witch they had? Their scenes were like some bad Samwena fan fiction. 

That was more of Rowena coming up with a reason to have Sam there, in case the plan didn't work, she would need him to kill her for her backup plan to work.

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Am I really supposed to believe that Sam would be devastated over Rowena's death.   Because I didn't buy it. 

It's a bit different given that he's the one that had to kill her.  It wasn't her being killed a demon while Sam was there, he jammed the knife into her.  Rowena's grown close to the Winchesters, and Sam and Dean have been all "screw destiny", so Sam sees that destiny wasn't wrong in that regard.

[gonzosgirrl]

So Billie's books were right when it came to Sam, not so much for Dean. Shocking.

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It would have been okay if they didn't act like Cas did nothing wrong.

But the way it was framed was simply a set-up for Dean to grovel for forgiveness to Cas at a later date-which was BS because Cas withheld info that would have allowed them to deal with the NougatBaby differently and maybe saved Mary's life-but that wouldn't fit with Berens' vision of Dean as The Bully at all-no matter the depth Jensen brings to his character.

I hope Dean never apologizes, but I'm sure he will because the Destiel fandom has been demanding it on social media since Mary died and Dean didn't handle it the way that they wanted him to.

I don't disagree with your, but I was strictly talking Jensen's acting. 

[BabySpinach]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

So Billie's books were right when it came to Sam, not so much for Dean. Shocking.

Yeah, it's insultingly blatant at this point. I can't imagine them just not addressing this gaping plot hole, but I was almost certain that there was some big twist coming with it last season too. We'll just have to wait and see, and grit our teeth through more character-assassinating dreck in the meantime. Whoopee. 

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Man, I’m always in The minority, lol. I thought this was the best one so far this season. 

Same for me. I was really hoping Rowena would go most of the season before she died. I really didn't like her when she first started on the series, but she became one of my favorites. And I loved the ending with Castiel leaving.

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't disagree with your, but I was strictly talking Jensen's acting. 

I know.

He's always so good; does whatever he can to soften the horrific writing for his character, but I'm just so sick and tired of Dean's feelings(and his expressions of them) being depicted as "wrong", while so many OCs feelings are validated and given merit, no matter how they express them.

When does Dean get to have his say to Castiel about how much it must have hurt to lose his mother not once, but twice in his lifetime, FFS. And to add that maybe she'd still be alive if Castiel had trusted them with the knowledge that the NougatBaby had no soul.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

They ripped off the Lucifer set.   Hell is exactly like it looks on Lucifer. 

They really have no imagination anymore.

[Myrelle]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So Billie's books were right when it came to Sam, not so much for Dean. Shocking.

Go figure. 🙄

[Shannonsspirit]

I rejected the premise of Supernatural following Moriah. Retcon of Chuck, negation of free will, trampled lcanon, and mangled lore. Now there is contrived drama, character assasination unnatural character conflict, and  expedited deaths of characters. 

All for what? I don't sense a story. It is a free for all. A chaotic bitterly cynical characature designed to tap the most shallow heartstrings in the most cliched manner with the depth and maturity of a dime store novel or video game.

I can't relate to this show anymore. I'm a grown up trying to watch a show that now caters to disturbed adolescents. 

I would like to see a movie someday, that retcons the hell out of the Dabb era.and returns to something one can be immersed in.

[SueB]

Well I cried during the Samwena scenes.  They were my crack ship and both Ruth and Jared did a fantastic job with that scene.  It's too soon for my wishes but she got a lovely, world-saving end.  I kind DO hope she takes over Hell.  She'd be good at it.  

I think Rowena knew right off the bat that this self-sacrifice was in the cards.  She set it up perfectly.  And I think she's right, Sam was the best at Latinating and does most of the conjuring when it's just the boys.  Dean's done plenty but Sam's the linguist.  I also really liked how CERTAIN she was this was the right decision.  She went out on her terms, a hero.  Pretty damn proud of her.  Not every character is going to get a 'good' ending.  Rowena got one. 

Speaking of ending, Ketch got a weaksauce ending and yet I'm okay with that.  He did let Mary get brainwashed and tortured.  And he did sacrifice himself for the boys.  So even if it was world-saving, at least it was better than slithering away.  I do like the actor and I think this was a decent enough wrap-up.  Both he and Rowena in the same episode kind of detracted.

OTOH Belphagor?  Meh.  I knew he was bad news from the start.  I enjoyed his quips but I was glad he didn't hand around as a loose end.

I feel very bad for Cas.  I totally get WHY Dean is so angry and I get why Cas left.  But Cas is a walking ball of pain.  He's very far from a happy moment -- so, there's that!   I want someone to comfort him.  

Poor Sam, that hurt.  He knows Rowena was a right but he's been hurt again.  I feel like Chuck is still manipulating things.

And poor Dean.  He's so angry (and rightly so) and also hurt.  They just saved the world and it feels like shit.  I wish I believed Chuck WAS gone.  Then I could see a long term path to healing.

I just hope the boys get some nice moments in the next few episodes to heal over this big hole in their hearts.  

[KayCordingly]

Sorry, I'm normally sympathetic towards Cas, but I am totally on Team Dean this time. He was absolutely right; Cas screwed up.

So what if there was a new king of Hell? I know they seem really against it, but I just don't see what the problem is. How is it better to have Hell full of chaos, with demons running around doing whatever, instead of having them under the rule of one? Especially when that one could potentially be a frenemy?

I rolled my eyes at Ketch's death. Like oh boy here we go again! Can't wait to see how he gets resurrected next season.... wait. Crap, that was for real, wasn't it? This is going to be the entire season, isn't it? Bringing people back just to kill them off.

Sad about Rowena. Was really hoping that she'd be a final girl.

Also, did anybody else breathe a sigh of relief after Cas read the verses and Lucifer DIDN'T show up??? I think I remember Belphasto... Blethaz... B-dude saying that it was to praise Lucifer or something and I was like "oh HELL no..."

Edited October 25, 2019 by KayCordingly

[tennisgurl]

Slow your damn role show. Save your character deaths and angst fests for the rest of the season! I just...I have no idea what this show is trying to do now. So we have new magaffins, new plot devices, and I guess thats it for the ghostpololypse? At least we are leaving Boringsville, and can maybe try a new set now. 

I should have known that Ketch and Rowena would be doomed, but I thought that once they survived last week that they would go alright. Like the idiot that I am. That really sucks, I liked both of them and we really need some fun characters to shake up the angst between the leads. At least Rowena got a decently epic send off, Ketch just got his freaking heart ripped out by some random demon! Like, shit show, you can save your pointless deaths for later! I mean, I hate to say that Sam and Dean are cursed so that everyone they ally with with die horribly and have other awful things happen to them, but...Rowena lived for a really long freaking time, and then she met Sam and Dean. I did like her last words being a call back to Crowlys death. 

I mean, I kind of like that they're bringing back a lot of the supporting characters for the last season, but do they have to bring them back just to torture them? Like, good news, Kevin's back! Bad news, he was in Hell because Chuck is a dick and is now a ghost. Good news, Ketch and Rowena are here! Bad news, they're dead. Chuck/Dabb is such a dick. 

The show really made me think that we would get some cool stuff out of using old monsters of the week last season, but I guess thats over now? And all we got was some mediocre actors in bad grey paint running around a suburb? Who are either crappy versions of old monsters or random idiots we`ve never seen before? For now at least?

Oh no, demon guy is evil and has ulterior motives?!? Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

All this stuff with Dean being pissed at Cas is just so ridiculous and melodramatic, and just seems to exist to make Dean look like an asshole, create more drama, and isolate Sam and Dean. I think Dean has the right to be mad at Cas about hiding what Jack did to Mary, but him just sulking and being a dick to Cas, even in the middle of dangerous situations, seems really out of character to me. I feel like if the two of them actually talked, this could be worked out. I mean, everyone on this show has done shit to each other and everyone pretty much gets over it pretty quickly (see Rowena and Ketch) and I think that Dean would understand why Cas did what he did, even if he was upset. With this version of Dean stomping around, I dont blame Cas for leaving, although I know that he will certainly be back. I just dont buy this fight, I dont buy it at all. Cas screwed up, but he is still their family, and no way would Dean forget that. 

I mean, the angst is so high and everyone is so sad and miserable, I really just want the guys to go bowling. Is that so much to ask?!

I mean, this episode had a lot of good acting and I was invested at least, and thats more than the last two episodes, but its all so contrived and I have no clue where the show is going now. In a bad, flailing way, not a fun unpredictable way. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by tennisgurl

[catrox14]

Farewell, Rowena.  That said, I'm pretty sure she'll turn up as the Queen of Hell. 

Sam crying over Rowena was just OTT.  I don't believe he would be that crushed especially to save the world.

I am 100% okay with the Dean and Cas fracture.  It's not permanent.  Dean only said the truth to Cas' face.  Cas DID fuck up the plan.  Cas DID NOT listen to Dean about Jack EVER.

I don't think Dean said anything so awful.  And yet Berens wrote it so it looks like Castiel is making some big stand up for himself....since when didn't Cas stand up to Dean right or wrong?  Fuck you, Berens for trying to make Dean into a bad guy here.  HE's not.  Castiel has given Dean a lot of shit over the years, which I guess is okay, but Dean can't do likewise. 

I see your BS, Berens. 

[Casseiopeia]

21 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, the angst is so high and everyone is so sad and miserable, I really just want the guys to go bowling. Is that so much to ask?!

Lol.....me too!

[ahrtee]

Was I the only one who questioned how not!Jack (sorry, can't spell the name) just walked out of the crypt past all the salt they'd just laid down to keep the ghosts out?  

I know it's small potatoes in the long list of things wrong, but it did make me blink.

[tennisgurl]

So, this just continues my theory that Chuck is the stand in for Dabb, being the being in charge of this whole universe, who gets bored with it eventually and decides to burn it down (complete with abandoning previously established rules and killing people just to be petty) and then peace out right before it’s gone. Oh, and don’t forget to act like Dean is the most horrible worst person always despite how much good he’s done and all he’s given up for others and how many solid points he makes when he’s supposed to be in the wrong apparently! Chuck/Dabb loves that one! 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 I feel like if the two of them actually talked, this could be worked out.

That was one of the dumbest parts of the show, when Castiel returned from hell and he and Dean were beside Swan Song 2.0 CGI Highway to Hell what was with all the hesitation from Cas? He just stood there woobying and letting Dean get angrier and angrier instead of telling him what happened. 

Berens tweeted some dreck about their final scene 'morphing' because Jensen's so good at saying things without words. Dude, please. Dean actually defending himself and explaining it's been like five minutes since Mary was murdered would have gone a long way. So would them not making Jack blameless and Dean forgiving him and not Cas. Manufactured angst is manufactured.

[mertensia]

Eh, Dean is only human and he is at his his rawest at the moment. It's never a pretty look, but it is a very real one.

Bye, Rowena. You grew on me and you made the right choice: Dean would not have let you die/helped you commit suicide. 

Ha! Don't underestimate Cas, Belphegor! I hope you learned your lesson.

[PAForrest]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Farewell, Rowena.  That said, I'm pretty sure she'll turn up as the Queen of Hell. 

Sam crying over Rowena was just OTT.  I don't believe he would be that crushed especially to save the world.

I am 100% okay with the Dean and Cas fracture.  It's not permanent.  Dean only said the truth to Cas' face.  Cas DID fuck up the plan.  Cas DID NOT listen to Dean about Jack EVER.

I don't think Dean said anything so awful.  And yet Berens wrote it so it looks like Castiel is making some big stand up for himself....since when didn't Cas stand up to Dean right or wrong?  Fuck you, Berens for trying to make Dean into a bad guy here.  HE's not.  Castiel has given Dean a lot of shit over the years, which I guess is okay, but Dean can't do likewise. 

I see your BS, Berens. 

All the bad writing and picking at fictional characters by supposedly grown up people has made me numb to whatever it is they're trying to do here, or claim they're trying to do. It all falls so flat and silly that I can't get worked up enough to care about any of it when the plots stink as much as they do.

However, I do fervently wish they'd stop right here and now bringing back recurring and past characters just to tick them off some whiteboard checklist via ridiculous deaths, as if that means something anymore - and so incredibly badly too. Or, as in the case of Kevin last week, simply ruin them in the name of retconning, just 'cuz they can.

The almost comical way Ketch and Rowena were dispatched in this episode was Monty Python-level silliness that made me want to laugh more than anything, when I wasn't rolling my eyes. I mean, seriously, they wasted David's time showing up to the set for that? Eh, at least he got paid for an episode he wasn't really in, I guess.

Dean is the only character reacting appropriately to everything that's happened, IMO. And everything he said to Cas was absolutely correct. I don't really care what reaction Berens was aiming to elicit from the fan base. Honestly, I just wish Cas would stay gone from here on out, but we already know that won't happen.

[Katy M]

I liked this better than the last episode.  It was nice that a demon remembered that she could just snap necks, but then she forgot and decided to actually fight with Ketch.

I liked that Ol' Phogy was playing them all along and though I think Cas did the right thing in killing him, I am sad that he is dead, because I can only assume that heralds the imminent return of Jack.  And I preferred the demon.  Which is a weird thing to say.

Dean needs to get over himself.  Jack, and Jack alone, is responsible for Mary's death.  Cas holds about as much responsibility as Sam and Dean.  What real extra info did he have?  That Jack killed a snake?  Sam and Dean had also commented on his behavior and whatnot, so maybe Dean just feels guilty and is projecting.  That makes more sense to me and I just thought of that as I was typing, so maybe I feel a bit better.

I'm assuming we're getting at least a couple of weeks off from Cas.  Don't mind that.  Hope we just have a couple of nice MOTWs.  

Can't feel too bad about Rowena.  She's been helpful lately, but she has centuries of being evil behind her, so that's just the way life goes.  

And, oh yeah, Dean, Ol' Phogy becoming all powerful wouldn't be that easy to "deal with" and would have had a large body count.  I'm not the biggest Cas fan in the world (also not the biggest hater), but he was 100% right in this case.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So would them not making Jack blameless and Dean forgiving him and not Cas.

See, that's what bugs me.  Jack is the one most responsible for Mary's death. I would say he's the only one responsible for Mary's death.  Yet, Dean is blaming Cas.  Again, the only way I can reconcile that in my brain is that he's projecting his guilt on the closest "safe" target.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

, that's what bugs me.  Jack is the one most responsible for Mary's death. I would say he's the only one responsible for Mary's death.  Yet, Dean is blaming Cas.  Again, the only way I can reconcile that in my brain is that he's projecting his guilt on the closest "safe" target.  

I don't think Dean is projecting here. I thin he does think Cas had a duty to tell them about Jack's state. Whether he's right or wrong about it doesn't change that is what he thinks.

Cas hasn't really acknowledged Dean's grief over Mary either. He's continued to kind of defend Jack in a way.

Dean is pissed at Cas. He's pissed at God. I think he's also pissed at himself for allowing Cas and Sam to talk him out of going into the box with Michael. If he is innthe box, none of this hapoens. So if there is any projection I think it goes back to that which he shouldn't feel guilty over either.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If he is innthe box, none of this hapoens.

I don't know where he would have gotten that from.  The events that caused Jack to lose his soul happened before he even knew to build that box.  Sure, he slaughter in the bunker wouldn't have happened, and maybe it would have taken longer for Jack to completely (or whatever state he was finally at) lose his soul, but it still would happened, box or no box.  Plus, if Jack could break out of the box in 5 minutes flat, Michael would have found a way out within a week.

[SueB]

That last scene with Dean and Cas was so intense!  I agree Dean is projecting everywhere, including onto himself.  I liked that they had that little exchange in the crypt where Dean was itching to go shoot something.  He's not a 'wait peacefully til I die' kind of guy.  He's still itching to shoot something.  He's anger is justified and he's lashing out.  I think he will eventually acknowledge that Cas was the guy on the scene and he had to make a call.  Killing Belphagor certainly is consistent with the kind of split-second decision they've all had to make.  

But it also hurts hearing the 'checklist' that Cas went through: 'Jack is dead, God is gone, my powers are failing, and you and Sam have each other.'  As if there was no purpose to Cas if he's not there to protect Sam and Dean; and with Chuck gone (in their minds), then Sam and Dean don't need Cas. Cas is MORE than just a useful ally to Sam and Dean. and they've told him that.  So Cas, IMO, is also lashing out in his own way.  He seems to have learned from Sam & Dean to internalize his anger.  Cas has a lot to be angry about as well.  

I think the REAL issue is that Cas didn't trust Sam and Dean with express his doubts about Jack.  He prized Jack's safety over everything else and went off to find God to ask him to fix Jack. It's what Dean would do if it was Sam. In fact it was what Dean DID when he he put Cas out of the bunker in S9.  

Bless Cas, he really has imprinted on Dean (mostly) and Sam.  

So let me be clear - this is a conversation with two people in pain who have been externally manipulated and are angry - I love them both and don't think either is being 'wrong' in this scene.  It's just an unresolved conflict and neither are in a place where they can 'hug it out'.

I think Sam will see it first: there's a parallel with Cas /Jack to Dean/Sam that no-one has discussed but I think, put in that context, could be how Dean can move past his issues with Cas.  I hope they have that conversation in a few episodes.  In the meantime, it's just too painful for Dean and Cas to be around each other.  And I mean that in a complex relationship versus any kind of romance way. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Again, the only way I can reconcile that in my brain is that he's projecting his guilt on the closest "safe" target.  

The only way I can reconcile it is that it's incredibly shitty writing that won't be addressed in any satisfying way (such as your theory here would be, if only they would put it in any kind of context in-show).

And if we're just going to go by character motivations, Cas has been 100% blind to anything but Jack since the moment he whammied Sam & Dean unconscious and took off to protect fetus-Jack in S12. Not once has he listened to anything that wasn't Jack-positive since then. So excuse the fuck out of Dean if he's had enough of it, with getting his mother killed as the final straw.

Edited October 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

I don't think Dean is projecting.  I think he's genuinely angry at Cas.  To say its just projection makes it seem like Cas did nothing to earn Dean's anger or distrust and he has. 

Since Jack showed up Cas has repeatedly lied and gone behind Sam and Dean's back, worked against them.  Dean has reached out and and been rebuffed.  I won't list specifics because this isn't the thread but Cas is not a little innocent snowflake. 

When Dean said "it's always you,' he's not wrong.

Cas couldn't stand to look Bel because he looks like Jack and he reminds him of what Cas lost, but what about Dean.  Bel also looks like the guy that killed Dean's mother.  Did Cas even consider what working with him might be doing to Dean or did he only care about his own feelings. 

If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck.  Then chances are its a duck.   I think Dean is angry a Cas because he's tired of all the lies.  (And Cas is still lying.). 

Edited October 25, 2019 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

It's not terribly bad writing, though. Projecting anger onto the wrong person - or on to the correct person, but too forcefully - is very believable to me in this situation. Dean is angry with everyone and everything and God and Cas and Jack and Sam and Rowena and his mom and.... And he can't handle it any more. It makes him less 'perfect' and more three dimensional.

And while they might not go there, in reality if I was around Dean when he's like this....I would be fleeing mindlessly. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by mertensia

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, mertensia said:

It's not terribly bad writing, though. Projecting anger onto the wrong person - or on to the correct person, but too forcefully - is very believable to me in this situation. Dean is angry with everyone and everything and God and Cas and Jack and Sam and Rowena and his mom and.... And he can't handle it any more. It makes him less 'perfect' and more three dimensional.

And while they might not go there, in reality if I was around Dean when he's like this....I would be fleeing mindlessly. 

It is bad writing when only one side of an argument is given.  Dean didn' just wake up and decide to be mad at Cas.  It was a long slow process that has been building for four years. 

Its not all on Dean's side or in his imagination.

[tessathereaper]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

It is bad writing when only one side of an argument is given.  Dean didn' just wake up and decide to be mad at Cas.  It was a long slow process that has been building for four years. 

Its not all on Dean's side or in his imagination.

Yep, meanwhile everyone else is woobified.  I little sympathy for Cas really, he brought that anger from Dean on himself and he still refused to see how and why.  Nothing too forceful about the anger Dean is projecting at him.  

[Ria]

Too bad Dean didn’t ask Cas what happened instead of defaulting back into his perpetual self righteous jerk mode. If Bel had taken in 3 billion souls and become a god as he thought he would, Cas was right to stop him. The plan had to change as Cas tried to explain but taking to Dean is like talking to a wall.

Every season it’s the same thing, find a reason to get them all mad and distrusting if each other and create phony drama over it all.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

caused Jack to lose his soul happened before he even knew to build that box.  Sure, he slaughter in the bunker wouldn't have happened, and maybe it would have taken longer for Jack to completely (or whatever state he was finally at) lose his soul, but it still would happened, box or no box.  Plus, if Jack could break out of the box in 5 minutes flat, Michael would have found a way out within a week.

If Dean was in the box, Jack could not have powered himself back up with Michael's grace. Thus he would not have the power to smite Mary with an angry thought.. He had the power to kill after eating some of Michael's Grace.

And given what the story said, Michael couldn't have gotten out of the box because he was trapped in Dean's mind and in the Malak Box. So given the givens, I think Dean is projecting his guilt for not following through on what he believed/knew based in Billie's book what had  to be done.

I think his anger at Cas is justified and real and not projection.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Ria said:

Too bad Dean didn’t ask Cas what happened instead of defaulting back into his perpetual self righteous jerk mode. If Bel had taken in 3 billion souls and become a god as he thought he would, Cas was right to stop him. The plan had to change as Cas tried to explain but taking to Dean is like talking to a wall.

Every season it’s the same thing, find a reason to get them all mad and distrusting if each other and create phony drama over it all.

Dean did seem to possess that info at the end, though, and it didn't seem to change his mind any.  His response was that they would have dealt with it. With Rowena.  Which was kind of a stupid thing to add on, because why would Cas have in any way assumed that killing the demon would cause Rowena's immediate death?  She said nothing about the back up plan ahead of time.  So, Cas was assuming that they would "deal with" the current ghost situation some other way.  Which may or may not have been easier than one souped up superdemon.  I think Dean would have done the exact same thing in Cas's place.

14 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Jack didn't go evil her made a mistake. 

How many people did he kill between Game Night and Moriah?  Quite a few.  Killing someone in a fit of anger because they're annoying you is a little bit more than a "mistake."  

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if we're just going to go by character motivations, Cas has been 100% blind to anything but Jack since the moment he whammied Sam & Dean unconscious and took off to protect fetus-Jack in S12.

OK, but Sam and Dean both fully accepted Jack and called him a member of the family well after that point.  Sam also didn't want Dean to kill Jack.  Dean himself chose not to kill Jack.  No matter how much I yelled at the TV for him to do it.  So, he didn't listen either:)