And The Golden Arrow Goes To...: Awards, Nominations, and Recognition

[tv echo]

New Best Ever category - Ra's al Ghul nominated for Best Baddie (you can vote as often as you like, voting in all categories ends Thursday, June 25 at 5 p.m. PT)...

 

Best. Ever. TV. Awards 2015: Vote for TV's Best Baddies of the Season Now!
by TIERNEY BRICKER Wed., Jun. 17, 2015 12:00 PM PDT
http://www.eonline.com/news/667685/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-best-baddies-of-the-season-now

 

Previously posted Best Ever categories (voting still open)...

 

Ra's killing Oliver nominated for Best Shocker
http://www.eonline.com/news/667193/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-and-worst-shocker-of-the-season

 

Oliver and Felicity's premiere kiss nominated for Best Kiss
TA vs LOA nominated for Best Fight
http://www.eonline.com/news/666712/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-kiss-of-the-year-now

 

Oliver and Felicity nominated for Best Couple
http://www.eonline.com/news/666072/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-couple-now

 

SA and EBR nominated for Best Actor and Actress in a Drama
http://www.eonline.com/news/665203/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-officially-begin-vote-for-the-best-actor-and-actress-in-a-drama-now

[dtissagirl]

What makes you think that a CW show will be on the Emmy radar but not an Alan Ball helmed show that has a cult following?

 

Isn't Alan Ball just the name that brings in money, though -- say, like Spielberg with Falling Skies? I quit Banshee after they killed my favorite character, but in every interview/article/social media thing ever they said the show was helmed by Greg Yaitanes.

[olicityfan25]

Oh yay using the term fangirls in a derogatory way. I'm sure if your favorites were nominated for anything you'd be voting to. Or if your fav had a bigger fan base, I'm sure you'd be in there to help trend stuff, with Twitter, tumblr, Facebook, etc.

It's easy for others to see a bigger group of people getting stuff done for their favorites and call them fangirls in a derogatory way. But, really aren't we some of the people giving this show free publicity, and keeping it on a lot of people's minds when it comes to hiatus? At least Olicity fans don't discriminate in promoting just one person. We like Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Thea. A lot of Felicity fans want a Thea/Felicity relationship.

[anamika]

Isn't Alan Ball just the name that brings in money, though -- say, like Spielberg with Falling Skies? I quit Banshee after they killed my favorite character, but in every interview/article/social media thing ever they said the show was helmed by Greg Yaitanes.

 

I did not know that. But Yaitanes is not that bad either.

 

And to show how ridiculous season 3 effects were, let me link you to this hilarious image where Oliver actually GRAPPLES THE SKY and flies away. These days I watch the show for the comedy, really...

 

http://i.imgur.com/GQ1DZDJ.gif

 

As for the fights...

 

http://i.imgur.com/T80RSws.gif

 

I really don't see this stuff getting nominated for anything.

Edited June 18, 2015 by anamika

[Delphi]

I really don't see this stuff getting nominated for anything.

Me neither. Which makes it good that these aren't from the episode in consideration. Edited June 18, 2015 by Delphi

[Chaser]

I felt it deserved recognition in S2, but some of their stunts were downright embarrassing this season. The stunt double problems with Laurel and Malcom (The Fallen is obvious on re watch), the wires on Nyssa, the above Peace out stunt, the final fight was sluggish and sloppy, etc

[dtissagirl]

Me neither. Which makes it good that these aren't from the episode in consideration.

 

They submit the show as a whole for the Stunts category. Special Effects gets specific episodes, I think because they might use different people/FX houses for different episodes/different kinds of SFX? The stunts crew tends to be the same throughout the season.

[Starfish35]

some of their stunts were downright embarrassing this season. The stunt double problems with Laurel and Malcom (The Fallen is obvious on re watch), the wires on Nyssa, the above Peace out stunt, the final fight was sluggish and sloppy, etc

Yeah, I don't know what was going on with them this season (and I've only seen a couple of episodes of Daredevil so I can't compare), but I really don't think their stunts were up to what they have been in previous seasons. Matt Nable's obvious stunt double in the fight in The Climb was another issue.

Just talking about fights, that big fight on AoS between

Mockingbird, Ward, and Agent 33

was IMO better than anything I saw on Arrow this season.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

That fight on AOS was one of the best fights on TV. It was smart and brutal.

I wonder what the problem was this season. Budget cuts? Attention elsewhere?

[Delphi]

They submit the show as a whole for the Stunts category. Special Effects gets specific episodes, I think because they might use different people/FX houses for different episodes/different kinds of SFX? The stunts crew tends to be the same throughout the season.

I had no idea about that. I tend to be pretty clueless about how these things work. Thanks for the heads up.

[dtissagirl]

That fight on AOS was one of the best fights on TV. It was smart and brutal.

I wonder what the problem was this season. Budget cuts? Attention elsewhere?

 

I blame Brandon Routh and the ATOM suit. Both probably cost a lot more than anything they spent money on in S2.

 

Add to that shooting a whole lot more stunt sequences this season while having to hide the stunt folk's faces from the camera [and then failing a whole lot at it] = lame-o stunts all around.

Edited June 18, 2015 by dancingnancy

[quarks]

At the same time, lets be serious here. Are people really saying that Arrow is or would be a realistic Emmy nominee for anything??

 

 

For stunts, yes, Arrow is a realistic Emmy nominee. It's gotten a significant amount of buzz for that category in previous years and Time Warner has been pushing it in that category for a bit, and it's also possible that Arrow is going to get a special technical nod for its stunt related camera work (in one of the Engineering Awards).  For special and visual effects, Arrow is a pretty unlikely but remotely possible Emmy nominee - both CW and superhero shows have gotten nods in this category.  

 

 

Daredevil got positive critical reception for a reason. And the one stunt sequence stands out for a reason. They wanted to do something different and they spend a whole lot of effort on doing it right in the little time they had. Innovation is good.  And the other stunts were pretty damn good as well. Matt vs Nobu or Matt vs Healy where they fight around the tight space surrounding the car, the warehouse blowing up etc. After watching Daredevil, Arrow stunts look like child play. When Oliver pushes his sword into Ra's one can actually see the sword moving along the side. It was rather silly. 

 

And who cares if Arrow did stunts on a lower budget. That's not going to be a factor when they give awards. What matters is who did the best job. And on this, it was definitely daredevil. This is a pretty universally held opinion and I am surprised that people actually think that Arrow's season 3 stunts are better than Daredevil. I would say that Arrow season one and two stunts come close to Daredevil's but Arrow season three stunts were rubbish.

 

 

Arrow also got positive critical reception - yes, even this season, which I'd agree was weaker - for a reason. It has regularly landed on critics' best of lists and gotten lengthy essays/focus pieces.  Have many of these pieces just happened to appear in publications owned or part owned by CBS which just happens to own half of the CW and have some of these other pieces just happened to appear in publications partly owned by the same organizations that own CW affiliate stations? Yes, yes, they have, and I am not naive enough to think that this had nothing to do with CBS' attempts to keep the CW going. With that said, interestingly enough, did some of the most enthusiastic praise for Daredevil come from Disney owned or part owned publications? Why, yes, it did. Did Disney, unlike Arrow, send me extensive promotional material about Daredevil and regularly slam my inbox and mailbox with info and DVDs that I didn't want about the show? Yes, yes, Disney did. 

 

Both Arrow and Daredevil are critically acclaimed TV superhero shows, which up until now has been fairly rare. Arrow has certainly come in for more criticism this season, but the major reason that Daredevil received the positive critical attention is simple: Disney promoted it more.

 

Moving past the critical reception and Disney/Time Warner issues to stunts:

 

First, because I'm about to be a bit harsh on the show, I liked Daredevil! A lot. As I said in my previous post on this, I will not be at all surprised to see Daredevil get a couple of Emmy nods - I think it's a realistic contender, and not just because Disney is pushing the show.

 

Second, although this is not universally true, Emmy voters typically judge the single episode put up for consideration. Which means that a single error in an episode that's not up for consideration (and the "My Name is Oliver Queen" and "Suicidal Tendencies," the episodes with stunt/production errors, aren't up) isn't going to have much of an impact.

 

And to be fair, that's also true of what I'm about to say about Daredevil.  I wasn't kidding when I said that show filmed in low light for a reason: to hide issues with the stunt sequences. You mention the bit with Oliver and Ra's, which was also criticized on this forum extensively. I can mention multiple shots where fists and feet visibly didn't land. Several shots were blocked to prevent viewers from seeing the action clearly, and the camera was often pulled back, again to prevent viewers from seeing the action clearly. At least four of the stunt sequences had continuity issues.  And I would argue that several of Arrow's fight sequences, most notably the Tatsu/Maseo fight in episode 22, are equal if not better than the fights you mention. 

 

For what it's worth, by the way, I think that one reason that Arrow wasn't nominated for stunt sequences in previous years is because some of its stunts were filmed in low light. It's a very common camera/film/stage trick, but it's a trick. Emmy nominators, who are all involved in the industry, know this. They may very well decide to nominate Daredevil anyway, because that one stunt sequence in the hallway really was very good, but they may also say, eh, I'm not going to reward tricks like that. Who knows?

 

Third, fighting sequences are only part of a stunt coordination award.  Here, yes, I think Arrow does win overall, because it's not just fighting sequences, but stunts. Which means jumping off buildings, chase scenes, motorcycle jousting sequences and that sort of thing.  Daredevil focused on fight scenes, and did not do that many other stunts.  Arrow did.  Also, the majority of Daredevil's stunts involved only a few people. That makes sense within that show, and isn't a criticism - but Arrow coordinated group stunts with multiple people, including in the episode put up for nomination, something that Emmy nominators have rewarded in the past.

 

The budget often is a factor with the technical/stunt/effects awards. And were some of Arrow's stunts this year bad? Sure. But so were many of Daredevil's.

 

And on a slightly more personal note, I do find it amusing that you started by agreeing with me that the Emmys don't necessarily reward quality, and then continued to insist that Daredevil would get a stunt nomination and Arrow wouldn't because of the stunt quality. Hee. Meanwhile, other contenders in the stunt field include Agents of Shield, which isn't getting the "Wow did you see that stunt!" response but does have larger audiences. There's a number of factors at play here, quality only one of them.

 

 

What makes you think that a CW show will be on the Emmy radar but not an Alan Ball helmed show that has a cult following?  It's pretty much universally acknowledged that Banshee has some of the best fight and stunt choreography on television. Just type in Nola Vs Burton and see the number of youtube videos, comments and discussions about it. 

 

 

I tempted to list my professional credentials here, but instead, let's focus on your argument. Banshee and Arrow are both cult shows, so "it's a cult show!" is not, perhaps, the best argument for it - especially since Arrow has a larger viewership. (For that matter, Reign has a larger viewership.) What would have been a better argument: pointing out that Banshee, unlike Arrow, won an Emmy for outstanding visual effects in a supporting role back in 2013.  

 

Incidentally, a CW show - The 100 - did earn a nomination for outstanding visual effects in 2014. It lost to Game of Thrones.

 

You are correct that "Nola vs. Burton" brings up more than 4 million Google responses, including critical reviews that list it as one of the fights of the year. There is also an immediate problem with this: by page two, "Nola vs. Burton" is referring to The Times-Picayune (Nola.com) discussing Tim Burton. (Incidentally, this is the same problem that Westallen fans over on Flash have - many of their Google responses are false positives for West Allen, Texas.  And it's the same problem that Oliver and Laurel had in their first season - false positives for Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy.) By page four, Google is listing addresses on Burton Road in New Orleans and local New Orleans football games. 

 

"Atom vs Arrow"  brings up 21,600,000 Google responses, without a single false positive for the first four pages.  "Ra's vs. Arrow" brings up 14,300,000 responses. False positives start showing up on page three - but these are false positives for whether or not Oliver would join the League of Assassins, not completely unrelated responses about New Orleans. "Arrow vs Flash" brings up 33,300,000 responses (though that's probably more for The Flash than Arrow.)  

 

I don't think that anything is "universally acknowledged" except for factual things like "Wow, Jurassic World made a lot of money this weekend."  I can tell you that Banshee does not come up in nomination discussions. To be fair, Arrow rarely does either.

 

And if a CW show can get an Emmy nod for effects I think the logical choice here would be Flash and not Arrow.

 

 

As I noted, a CW show did get an Emmy nod for effects - The 100.  I agree that Flash is a more probable choice this year, and that it's quite possible that no CW show will receive a nod. 

 

HBO makes most of their money off the very expensive GOT merchandise and DVDs

 

 

 

Well, not according to HBO, which states that it is making most of its money from HBO subscriptions and international broadcast licensing. One of the reasons GoT was initially greenlit was to increase domestic HBO subscriptions; it's the same reason HBO greenlit John Oliver.

 

Which isn't to say that HBO isn't raking in money from Blu-Ray sales.The Blu-Ray for the first season Game of Thrones is currently listed as 108 on Amazon.com for Movies/TV, considerably higher than season one of Arrow at 2,368, or, for that matter season one of Banshee at 2,834.  I suppose we could argue that Arrow was available on free broadcast and now through Netflix streaming, and Banshee is available through Amazon Prime streaming, but that's pretty weak. But where Arrow (according to CBS) is making most of its domestic money from post-views and DVD/Blu-Ray sales, Game of Thrones (according to HBO) is making most of its domestic money through subscriptions.

 

Arrow, incidentally, also makes money through merchandise sales.  And it's safe to say that without Arrow and Agents of Shield, Gotham, The Flash and Constantine - three shows that brought revenue into WB - would not have been greenlit.  And although this didn't financially benefit WB at all, Netflix has said that the number of viewers marathoning Arrow on their service was one of many reasons they picked up Daredevil.  

 

Winning Teen Awards is not indicative of anything except that Amell and EBR have some dedicated fangirls and that the CW's audience likes them really, really well.

 

 

I assume that the CW wants its audience to like its shows and its actors really, really, well, but moving past that, at no point did I argue that the Teen Awards of anything other than a fanbase of whatever gender/age willing to click buttons on a screen.  My point was, however, that people who are willing to spend time clicking buttons on a screen are probably willing to spend money on Blu-Rays and DVDs.  

 

And sure enough, three seasons in, Arrow continues to enjoy steady, if not high, sales on Amazon.com. Pre-sales for the third season are at 2,831, although the Blu-Ray itself isn't coming out until September.  For comparison, pre-sales for Banshee season 3 are at 11,453.  Amazon.com doesn't have a listing for Daredevil.

 

Are the numbers much lower than those for Game of Thrones?  Absolutely (presales for GoT season five on Amazon.com are at 74)  But that's a show that can and does rent out food trucks, and sends that Iron Throne around to various cons so fans can sit on it, and that sort of thing - something Arrow doesn't and can't do.  Without that, Arrow has to rely on word of mouth, Twitter, and yes, viewers invested enough to click on internet polls. 

 

Finally, before I bow out of this conversation, for what it's worth, the CW claims that Arrow is watched by women and men. It's a fundamental part of the CW's plan to bring back a male audience. I have no data on this, granted, but anecdotally, at least some women on this forum have stated that they will not be buying season three (fair enough), and I've met male fans of the show. I've also met women who like Flash and plan to buy the first season on Blu-Ray and DVD, and women who like Daredevil and marathoned right through it. I'm not seeing the gender divide that you are.

[anamika]

For stunts, yes, Arrow is a realistic Emmy nominee. It's gotten a significant amount of buzz for that category in previous years and Time Warner has been pushing it in that category for a bit, and it's also possible that Arrow is going to get a special technical nod for its stunt related camera work (in one of the Engineering Awards).  For special and visual effects, Arrow is a pretty unlikely but remotely possible Emmy nominee - both CW and superhero shows have gotten nods in this category.  

 

Arrow has not got Emmy nominations for stunts or effects for the previous seasons and you think it has a realistic chance for what has to be its worst season yet?  Why? All that negative buzz it got this year for its lame ass stunts is going to propel it into the minds of Emmy voters or something?

 

The 100 got an Emmy nod for effects last year but from what I can see they had decent effects far better than anything Arrow did this season. And again, just logically looking at it if a CW show had to get nominated for effects would not Flash be a better choice? Or do you think that this year we would have The 100, Flash and Arrow getting Emmy nominees for effects. I like how you use words like 'unlikely' and still keep arguing for Arrow getting an Emmy nomination.

 

Second, although this is not universally true, Emmy voters typically judge the single episode put up for consideration. Which means that a single error in an episode that's not up for consideration (and the "My Name is Oliver Queen" and "Suicidal Tendencies," the episodes with stunt/production errors, aren't up) isn't going to have much of an impact.

 

If this is true, Arrow still does not stand a chance considering it would then be realistically going up against other candidates like Daredevil’s one take, 3 minute fight sequence and Banshee’s pretty much everything but I would put in Nola Vs Burton or since you brought up Agents of Shield, Skye’s John Wick type one shot fight sequence.

 

And to be fair, that's also true of what I'm about to say about Daredevil.  I wasn't kidding when I said that show filmed in low light for a reason: to hide issues with the stunt sequences. You mention the bit with Oliver and Ra's, which was also criticized on this forum extensively. I can mention multiple shots where fists and feet visibly didn't land. Several shots were blocked to prevent viewers from seeing the action clearly, and the camera was often pulled back, again to prevent viewers from seeing the action clearly. At least four of the stunt sequences had continuity issues.  And I would argue that several of Arrow's fight sequences, most notably the Tatsu/Maseo fight in episode 22, are equal if not better than the fights you mention.

 

And I would maintain that despite all that Daredevil stunt sequences are still done far better. Take the example of the Tatsu/Maseo fight that you keep bringing up. It’s choppy as hell with so many cuts as they keep twirling their swords about, hit at each other a couple of times and its over in maybe 10 seconds. Cut like crazy for a 10 second fight.  You are saying that fight  is better than the 3-4 minute fights between Matt and Nobu and Matt and Healy? Or the fight in episode one when Matt takes on the assassin and they fight in the room using the walls and the furniture, fall out the window and then keep fighting on in the rain?

 

As for lighting, Daredevil fights at night. Same as Arrow. Of course it’s not going to be bright. And the hallway fight was lighted that way for a specific reason. It was a homage to Old Boy.

 

For what it's worth, by the way, I think that one reason that Arrow wasn't nominated for stunt sequences in previous years is because some of its stunts were filmed in low light. It's a very common camera/film/stage trick, but it's a trick. Emmy nominators, who are all involved in the industry, know this. They may very well decide to nominate Daredevil anyway, because that one stunt sequence in the hallway really was very good, but they may also say, eh, I'm not going to reward tricks like that. Who knows?

 

I think the reason Arrow was not nominated for stunts in previous years was because 1. It is a CW show and 2. The stunts are not really all that great. I realized that they use too many cuts after watching Daredevil’s hallway fight and then compared it to Arrow’s season 1 corridor fight which was great but cut away too much making it way too choppy for my tastes. Still I think Arrow deserved an Emmy nom more than Grimm for season one and two, and I think it did not get it because it’s a CW super hero show and not because of any lighting issues. But this year not only is the competition tougher, but Arrow fights were terrible.

 

Third, fighting sequences are only part of a stunt coordination award.  Here, yes, I think Arrow does win overall, because it's not just fighting sequences, but stunts. Which means jumping off buildings, chase scenes, motorcycle jousting sequences and that sort of thing.  Daredevil focused on fight scenes, and did not do that many other stunts.  Arrow did.  Also, the majority of Daredevil's stunts involved only a few people. That makes sense within that show, and isn't a criticism - but Arrow coordinated group stunts with multiple people, including in the episode put up for nomination, something that Emmy nominators have rewarded in the past.

 

I am beginning to doubt that you watched the show. Daredevil jumped off buildings, chased a car while doing parkour on the roofs, fell out of windows and through floors, crashed out of a warehouse and into a river, fought a burning Ninja and a bombed warehouse fell on top of him while he was fighting. Not to mention we got a freaking fight between two blind men! It was innovative and different because Matt actually got winded and tired as he was fighting and they incorporated that into the fights. So yes, Daredevil has great Stunts too. And group stunts maybe great and all but I was not impressed by the ones on Arrow where even people like Laurel can stand up to the supposedly bad ass LOA baddies who don't put up much of a fight.

 

The budget often is a factor with the technical/stunt/effects awards. And were some of Arrow's stunts this year bad? Sure. But so were many of Daredevil's.

 

Why would the budget be a factor for Arrow? Did Arrow do something innovative or interesting in their fights with their low budget? Nothing particularly stood out for me in Arrow’s season 3 fights as opposed to their season one and two fights. Manu Bennet elevated the fight scenes and Arrow season one tried to do something different. Season 3 was bland, uninteresting and silly.

 

And so many of Daredevil stunts were bad? It feels like I watched a different show from what you did.

 

And on a slightly more personal note, I do find it amusing that you started by agreeing with me that the Emmys don't necessarily reward quality, and then continued to insist that Daredevil would get a stunt nomination and Arrow wouldn't because of the stunt quality. Hee. Meanwhile, other contenders in the stunt field include Agents of Shield, which isn't getting the "Wow did you see that stunt!" response but does have larger audiences. There's a number of factors at play here, quality only one of them.

 

Where did I say that Daredevil would get a stunt nomination? Sorry, but I can’t see that far into the future. What I said was that with contenders like Daredevil, Banshee and GOT in the field, it is next to impossible for Arrow to get an Emmy nom. If I was a gambling woman, I would hedge my bets on the first three. Arrow has neither critical hype nor any standout stunts, nor does it belong to the big 4 network channels or the big money subscription ones like HBO or Netflix.

 

I stated that the Emmys don’t necessarily reward quality but also give importance to critical hype, popularity and big names. Daredevil has greater stunt quality compared to Arrow, has critical reception, it's one shot fight was one of the most talked about fight scenes, it has big name actors like Rosario Dawson and Vincent D'Onofrio, Netflix shows have previously got Emmies  and I would still put Daredevil’s chances of getting an Emmy nom as being  low. Hell, Banshee which has Alan Ball’s name on its Roster and has THE best fighting on TV has a very low chance of getting an Emmy nom. But I do think there is a chance that they will both get Emmy noms. With Arrow, I just don't see it. That's what I am saying. Not that Daredevil will get it, but that I could see it getting an Emmy nom for all the reasons I mentioned as opposed to Arrow.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

[anamika]

I tempted to list my professional credentials here, but instead, let's focus on your argument. Banshee and Arrow are both cult shows, so "it's a cult show!" is not, perhaps, the best argument for it - especially since Arrow has a larger viewership. (For that matter, Reign has a larger viewership.) What would have been a better argument: pointing out that Banshee, unlike Arrow, won an Emmy for outstanding visual effects in a supporting role back in 2013. 

 

 

Your argument was that Arrow has a better chance than Banshee because Banshee was not on anyone’s radar. As I indicated, Banshee is as much on everyone’s radar as Arrow and has big names like Alan Ball associated with it. Plus, as you point out Banshee already has Emmy nominations.  No idea then why you mentioned that Banshee was not on anyone's radar as opposed to Arrow or that Arrow stood a better chance. Not really understanding your argument here. Or are you making my point for me?

 

You are correct that "Nola vs. Burton" brings up more than 4 million Google responses, including critical reviews that list it as one of the fights of the year.

 

Explaining why Banshee stands a chance of getting nominated as opposed to Arrow.

 

I can tell you that Banshee does not come up in nomination discussions. To be fair, Arrow rarely does either.

 

And yet here you are arguing for Arrow getting an Emmy nomination.

 

Which isn't to say that HBO isn't raking in money from Blu-Ray sales.The Blu-Ray for the first season Game of Thrones is currently listed as 108 on Amazon.com for Movies/TV, considerably higher than season one of Arrow at 2,368, or, for that matter season one of Banshee at 2,834.  I suppose we could argue that Arrow was available on free broadcast and now through Netflix streaming, and Banshee is available through Amazon Prime streaming, but that's pretty weak. But where Arrow (according to CBS) is making most of its domestic money from post-views and DVD/Blu-Ray sales, Game of Thrones (according to HBO) is making most of its domestic money through subscriptions.

 

 

So despite not winning any teen awards, GOT beat Arrow in DVD sales. Which tells me that there is no direct link between winning Teen awards and DVD sales.  HBO also has streaming services. GOT season 4 was the fastest selling box set in the UK in decades. It rakes in tons of money both domestically and internationally.

 

Arrow, incidentally, also makes money through merchandise sales.  And it's safe to say that without Arrow and Agents of Shield, Gotham, The Flash and Constantine - three shows that brought revenue into WB - would not have been greenlit.  And although this didn't financially benefit WB at all, Netflix has said that the number of viewers marathoning Arrow on their service was one of many reasons they picked up Daredevil. 

 

And I am yet to see the link between Arrow winning Teen choice awards and the other shows being greenlit or commissioned. Flash was greenlit because Arrow did well and got good ratings. Beauty and the Beast also got People choice awards because of online voters but got kicked off to the summer because the ratings were not there. SPN may win all the internet voting awards there is but its ratings have remained a steady 0.7-0.9.

 

At the end of the day TV ratings is all that matters. The CW is not going to care if Flash does not win any Teen Choice Awards. As it long as it maintains that 1.5 demo it will continue to be their flagship show. And pretty much all super hero shows tend to make a lot of money through merchandise. Not just the ones that win Teen Awards.

   

assume that the CW wants its audience to like its shows and its actors really, really, well, but moving past that, at no point did I argue that the Teen Awards of anything other than a fanbase of whatever gender/age willing to click buttons on a screen.  My point was, however, that people who are willing to spend time clicking buttons on a screen are probably willing to spend money on Blu-Rays and DVDs. 

 

 

And my point was that people who do not spend their time clicking buttons for their favorite actors also end up spending money on the Blu-Rays and DVDs of the shows they like. Not sure what specific monetary advantage these online voting fans offer.

 

And sure enough, three seasons in, Arrow continues to enjoy steady, if not high, sales on Amazon.com. Pre-sales for the third season are at 2,831, although the Blu-Ray itself isn't coming out until September.  For comparison, pre-sales for Banshee season 3 are at 11,453.  Amazon.com doesn't have a listing for Daredevil.

 

 

So Banshee has less pre-sales because it does not win Teen Awards or internet polls? That’s the argument? What about all the other shows that do well in DVD sales but don't win online polls? Like Justified or House of Cards or Sons of Anarchy etc. They don't spend tons of money on promotion like GOT either. What about Agents of Shield? How well does that do?   Unless you show me a correlation or some kind of data that shows that fans who spend their time on a computer voting for their favorites increase DVD sales, I am just going to take this as a whole lot of unsubstantiated hyperbole.

 

Are the numbers much lower than those for Game of Thrones?  Absolutely (presales for GoT season five on Amazon.com are at 74)  But that's a show that can and does rent out food trucks, and sends that Iron Throne around to various cons so fans can sit on it, and that sort of thing - something Arrow doesn't and can't do.  Without that, Arrow has to rely on word of mouth, Twitter, and yes, viewers invested enough to click on internet polls.

 

Maybe I am being naive here, but I still don't see how viewers invested enough to click on internet polls increase DVD sales. Someone goes 'Oh that Amell guy won the Teen Choice Award for best actor! I must buy the DVD for this show!'.  Or 'Arrow won Teen choice Award for best show! That show must be really good then. Let me buy the DVD'. I rather feel the complete opposite. I feel like these crappy award shows take away from the show rather than add to it.

 

I don't know about DVD sales, but maybe the dedicated fans are enough for the show to hold onto a stable TV rating.   Like I mentioned in my previous comment, from what I see Arrow is pretty much heading into SPN territory. Teen choice awards and a rabid online fan base that will probably lead to the show going 10 seasons or more. So maybe Internet clickers are good for something.

Edited June 19, 2015 by anamika

[apinknightmare]

You've probably spent as much time arguing against Arrow on here as some of the "internet clickers" have spent voting on polls. They're spending their time in fandom in a positive way, and devoting their time to things that they like instead of ripping it and its fans to shreds on a message board, so good for them. Ultimately, it's impossible to know if their voting/trends/etc. have any effect on the bottom line (or one that you would deem valuable, since fangirls beget fangirls and all that), but sometimes it seems like they do more to get word of mouth out there than the people whose job it is to actually market the show. More power to them, and if that's how they want to spend their time then I say vote, fangirls. Vote like the wind!

[GirlvsTV]

I actually wasn't planning to vote in any of the online polls going around right now, simply because there are so many and trying to keep up with them seems a bit exhausting, but seeing the positive efforts of the 'fangirls' who are voting and promoting the show being maligned has convinced me to spend my pre-work coffee time clicking away for my Arrow favorites. I really hate those eonline captchas though.

[olicityfan25]

Good Lord that essay up there. That was not necessary even though it was your opinion you kept repeating the same thing over again.

That person is acting like the one who said Arrow could win an Emmy can't have that opinion.

[kismet]

I actually wasn't planning to vote in any of the online polls going around right now, simply because there are so many and trying to keep up with them seems a bit exhausting, but seeing the positive efforts of the 'fangirls' who are voting and promoting the show being maligned has convinced me to spend my pre-work coffee time clicking away for my Arrow favorites. I really hate those eonline captchas though.

I usually try to vote on the eonline ones, but my work & even my personal laptop is having issues with the captchas this time around. So might not be able to contribute this time

[tv echo]

New Best Ever category - CH nominated for Star You'll Miss the Most (new end date for voting in all Best Ever polls is now Sunday, June 28 at 5 p.m. PT)...

 

Best. Ever. TV. Awards 2015: Vote for the Star You'll Miss the Most Now!
by TIERNEY BRICKER Thu., Jun. 18, 2015 10:00 AM PDT
http://www.eonline.com/news/668007/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-star-you-ll-miss-the-most-now

 

Previously posted polls (voting still open)...

 

Ra's al Ghul nominated for Best Baddie
http://www.eonline.com/news/667685/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-best-baddies-of-the-season-now

 

Ra's killing Oliver nominated for Best Shocker
http://www.eonline.com/news/667193/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-and-worst-shocker-of-the-season

 

Oliver and Felicity's premiere kiss nominated for Best Kiss
TA vs LOA nominated for Best Fight
http://www.eonline.com/news/666712/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-kiss-of-the-year-now

 

Oliver and Felicity nominated for Best Couple
http://www.eonline.com/news/666072/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-couple-now

 

SA and EBR nominated for Best Actor and Actress in a Drama
http://www.eonline.com/news/665203/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-officially-begin-vote-for-the-best-actor-and-actress-in-a-drama-now

[dtissagirl]

I'm still legit lost on the Alan Ball thing. Greg Berlanti is on the cover of Variety RIGHT NOW. I'm 100% sure the percentage of Emmy voters that read Variety is way way way larger than the percentage of Emmy voters who still think Alan Ball is happening.

[lemotomato]

I actually wasn't planning to vote in any of the online polls going around right now, simply because there are so many and trying to keep up with them seems a bit exhausting, but seeing the positive efforts of the 'fangirls' who are voting and promoting the show being maligned has convinced me to spend my pre-work coffee time clicking away for my Arrow favorites. I really hate those eonline captchas though.

That's my mindset too. I probably wouldn't have bothered voting on any of the polls this summer if not for all the relentless negativity from the haters. I didn't like a lot of season 3, but I'm not going to let the parts I *did* like get trashed.

[frenchtoast]

This is a forum on the internet about a TV show. There will be differing opinions. The overall guideline for this site is DON'T BE A DICK. Dickishness has been rampant in here, from both so called "sides". THIS IS NOT A FAN SITE. Fans post here. Critics of characters and show post here. Don't make it personal and don't take a difference of opinion personally. DON'T BE A DICK. There are too many posts to go back and edit. If it doesn't improve, we will go back and delete without warning. We can also lock the topic. Drop it, move on or find your post deleted without explanation or warning.

[Velocity23]

They should rename the E! polls into the Outlander vs Olicity fandom wars!

 

Both couples are up for sexiest moment poll

http://uk.eonline.com/news/668470/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-sexiest-moment-and-biggest-tearjerker-now?cmpid=sn-000000-twitterfeed-365-tv&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitterfeed_celebrities_tv

[TrueMyth]

They should rename the E! polls into the Outlander vs Olicity fandom wars!

 

Both couples are up for sexiest moment poll

http://uk.eonline.com/news/668470/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-sexiest-moment-and-biggest-tearjerker-now?cmpid=sn-000000-twitterfeed-365-tv&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitterfeed_celebrities_tv

Hotel Nanda Parbat needs this for promotional reasons, guys!  Currently in the lead. :)

[tv echo]

Summary of all Best Ever categories posted so far with voting links (you can vote as often as you like, voting in all categories ends on Sunday, June 28 at 5 p.m. PT)...

 

Oliver and Felicity's first time nominated for Sexiest Moment
http://www.eonline.com/news/668470/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-sexiest-moment-and-biggest-tearjerker-now

 

CH nominated for Star You'll Miss the Most
http://www.eonline.com/news/668007/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-star-you-ll-miss-the-most-now

 

Ra's al Ghul nominated for Best Baddie
http://www.eonline.com/news/667685/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-best-baddies-of-the-season-now

 

Ra's killing Oliver nominated for Best Shocker
http://www.eonline.com/news/667193/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-and-worst-shocker-of-the-season

 

Oliver and Felicity's premiere kiss nominated for Best Kiss
TA vs LOA nominated for Best Fight
http://www.eonline.com/news/666712/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-kiss-of-the-year-now

 

Oliver and Felicity nominated for Best Couple
http://www.eonline.com/news/666072/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-couple-now

 

SA and EBR nominated for Best Actor and Actress in a Drama
http://www.eonline.com/news/665203/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-officially-begin-vote-for-the-best-actor-and-actress-in-a-drama-now

[tv echo]

UPDATED summary of all Best Ever categories posted so far with voting links (voting in all categories ends on Sunday, June 28 at 5 p.m. PT)....

 

Arrow nominated for Best Fandom
Arrow nominated for Best Cast on Social Media
http://www.eonline.com/news/668590/which-show-has-the-best-fandom-vote-in-the-best-ever-tv-awards-now

 

Oliver and Felicity's first time nominated for Sexiest Moment
http://www.eonline.com/news/668470/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-sexiest-moment-and-biggest-tearjerker-now

 

CH nominated for Star You'll Miss the Most
http://www.eonline.com/news/668007/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-star-you-ll-miss-the-most-now

 

Ra's al Ghul nominated for Best Baddie
http://www.eonline.com/news/667685/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-best-baddies-of-the-season-now

 

Ra's killing Oliver nominated for Best Shocker
http://www.eonline.com/news/667193/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-and-worst-shocker-of-the-season

 

Oliver and Felicity's premiere kiss nominated for Best Kiss
TA vs LOA nominated for Best Fight
http://www.eonline.com/news/666712/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-kiss-of-the-year-now

 

Oliver and Felicity nominated for Best Couple
http://www.eonline.com/news/666072/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-couple-now

 

SA and EBR nominated for Best Actor and Actress in a Drama
http://www.eonline.com/news/665203/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-officially-begin-vote-for-the-best-actor-and-actress-in-a-drama-now

[tv echo]

Remember the ComicBookResources poll for Who is Your Current Favorite DC TV Hero?  The poll closed on Sunday, June 21st, 2015.  Final results?  Here are the top 6 spots...

 

1  Felicity Smoak     35.4%
2  Arrow     18.6%
3  Diggle     14.2%
4  Flash    10.5%
5  White Canary (Sara Lance)     6.4%
6  Black Canary (Laurel Lance)     6.1%

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=poll&id=325

Edited June 22, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I've seen this tweet making the rounds - has anyone found the original E!Online source for this statement?...

Shady Hero Facts ‏@ShadyHeroFacts  Jun 19
According to E! Online, "Olicity" is the largest "shipped" live-action comic duo in history. Sorry, Laurivers. ☕️

https://twitter.com/ShadyHeroFacts/status/612070536877768704

Edited June 22, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

Interesting. How would you even measure that?

ETA: I just looked up the lists of live-action comics shows. I'm guessing the only competition would be the Smallville pairings (Clana, Clois, Clex, Chlark, Chlollie)?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

I just thought it was a reference to how many categories Olicity was up for at E!Online. Barry/Iris aren't making a dent. Oliver/Laurel can't get a mention on E!Online unless its a worst couples countdown.

 

I don't think there is really a way to judge all-time popularity. Show with active fantoms are always going to get a boast.

[quarks]

It's a rather meaningless metric, isn't it?  For all we know, millions of people were shipping Britt and Lenore - or Britt and Kato - their shipping feelings forever silenced, forever lost to history because they didn't have Tumblr accounts.  

 

Sniffle.

 

ETA: My main objection here is to the "all-time."  We can probably pull up various metrics comparing Agents of Shield, Smallville and Flash to Arrow, but that's a small group.  The comparison will be a bit more meaningful when we have more superhero shows/seasons to look at. 

Edited June 22, 2015 by quarks

[tarotx]

Lois and Clark?

[Velocity23]

Arrow and Olicity nominated in MTVs Fandom Awards

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/mtv-fandom-awards-release-122221590705.html

[BkWurm1]

TV Dramas

Supernatural

Teen Wolf

Game of Thrones

The Vampire Diaries

Empire

Once Upon a Time

Arrow

Pretty Little Liars

 

I've noticed this before, despite The Flash getting better critical reception this year, Arrow remains the one that makes it onto  the favorite lists.  Good for Arrow. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I've seen this tweet making the rounds - has anyone found the original E!Online source for this statement?...

https://twitter.com/ShadyHeroFacts/status/612070536877768704

 

That the original tweet came from an account called Shady Hero Facts makes me wonder about its validity.

[lemotomato]

That the original tweet came from an account called Shady Hero Facts makes me wonder about its validity.

I thought that too, but in this case, the definition of "shade" being used refers to "throwing shade" aka trash talking, not shady as in suspicious.

 

 

 

Still no source for their "fact", though.

Edited June 24, 2015 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

The account is pretty entertaining and IIRC the tweets are facts (box office figures and what not)......With the exception of the Olicity tweet. Lol

It's an extension of SuperHero Feed so I'm not surprised.

[olicityfan25]

Maybe the tweet meant that Olicity is so powerful as a ship that it overtook the original ship of the show. That they take over polls, and sites like Twitter trends and tumblr.

Edited June 24, 2015 by olicityfan25

[tv echo]

Newly UPDATED summary of all Best Ever categories posted so far with voting links (voting in all categories ends on Sunday, June 28 at 5 p.m. PT)....

 

Matt Nable nominated for Best Guest Star
http://www.eonline.com/news/669146/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-breakout-stars-and-the-best-new-show-of-the-year

 

Arrow nominated for Best Fandom
Arrow nominated for Best Cast on Social Media
http://www.eonline.com/news/668590/which-show-has-the-best-fandom-vote-in-the-best-ever-tv-awards-now

 

Oliver and Felicity's first time nominated for Sexiest Moment
http://www.eonline.com/news/668470/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-sexiest-moment-and-biggest-tearjerker-now

 

CH nominated for Star You'll Miss the Most
http://www.eonline.com/news/668007/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-star-you-ll-miss-the-most-now

 

Ra's al Ghul nominated for Best Baddie
http://www.eonline.com/news/667685/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-tv-s-best-baddies-of-the-season-now

 

Ra's killing Oliver nominated for Best Shocker
http://www.eonline.com/news/667193/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-and-worst-shocker-of-the-season

 

Oliver and Felicity's premiere kiss nominated for Best Kiss
TA vs LOA nominated for Best Fight
http://www.eonline.com/news/666712/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-kiss-of-the-year-now

 

Oliver and Felicity nominated for Best Couple
http://www.eonline.com/news/666072/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-vote-for-the-best-couple-now

 

SA nominated for Best Drama Actor

EBR nominated for Best Drama Actress
http://www.eonline.com/news/665203/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-officially-begin-vote-for-the-best-actor-and-actress-in-a-drama-now

[tv echo]

Please help spread the word on this new url link to relevant fansites because this new page lists the Best Couple and Sexiest Moment polls on the same page...

 

E!Online has highlighted the closest Best Ever races (within 5%) and listed them on a new page (only three days left to vote, voting in all categories ends Sunday, June 28 at 5 p.m. PT)...

 

http://www.eonline.com/news/670745/best-ever-tv-awards-2015-last-chance-to-vote-check-out-the-closest-races

In sexier news, Outlander's Jamie and Claire are neck-and-neck with Arrow's Oliver and Felicity for both Sexiest Moment and Best Couple, while The 100's Clarke and Lexa are currently beating Jamie and Claire for Best Kiss of the season.

Edited June 27, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

All this voting! It's all over social media and I really can't wait for it to end. 

 

Other thoughts: I really hope that Olicity fans can pull off something because their fingers are going to fall off and it should be worth it. I did not know that the Outlander fandom was so big, but they are huge. Also didn't realize that Clarke and Lexa from The 100 had such a following (based on Best. Ever. Awards and MTV Ship of the Year). Speaking of MTV, those are some interesting couples nominated. Mostly because some of them aren't couples. Scott and Stiles from Teen Wolf, Damon and Bonnie from TVD (I would have thought if they were going with a TVD couple Stefan and Caroline would be over Damon and Bonnie). Interesting choices.

[olicityfan25]

I didn't know about the 100 fandom for Clarke and that other character being so big. I wonder if lesbians are voting who don't actually watch the show.

[tv echo]

Arrow did not win anything in this year's Saturn Awards (although The Flash cleaned up).  Arrow was one of the nominees for Best Superhero Adaptation Television Series, but was beaten by The Flash...

 

The 41st Annual Saturn Awards Winners 2015
http://www.saturnawards.org/

[olicityfan25]

Arrow should have won something for at least season 2.

[wingster55]

Well deserved for Flash imo 

[FurryFury]

I didn't know about the 100 fandom for Clarke and that other character being so big. I wonder if lesbians are voting who don't actually watch the show.

Not even the biggest ship in the fandom, as far as I can tell (although I'm not really ingrained in this fandom even if it's my favorite ongoing show, last I've seen there were heated ship wars between them and Bellarke).I guess femslash fans (many, if not most of whom aren't necessarily lesbians BTW) may be voting for them indeed.

 

Well deserved for Flash imo 

I continue to be flabbergasted how overrated this show is.

Edited June 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[wingster55]

Or maybe you underrate it.

[apinknightmare]

I continue to be flabbergasted how overrated this show is.

 

I'm not sure if overrated is the word that I would use, but I do find it interesting that it gets a lot of high praise writing and story-wise, when I can see the same thing happening over there that's happening on Arrow. Idiot moments for the main hero where he has to learn a lesson twice, nonsensical plots, people acting out of character to facilitate plot. I suppose it might be more noticeable and concerning if it goes on for three seasons, but IDK. 

 

It's lighter than Arrow is for sure, so I can see why people might find it more enjoyable. I'm not sure that the quality is ultimately that much better though. 

Edited June 27, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Balaclava]

I'm not sure if overrated is the word that I would use, but I do find it interesting that it gets a lot of high-praise writing and story-wise, when I can see the same thing happening over there that's happening on Arrow. Idiot moments for the main hero where he has to learn a lesson twice, nonsensical plots, people acting out of character to facilitate plot. I suppose it might be more noticeable and concerning if it goes on for three seasons, but IDK. 

 

It's lighter than Arrow is for sure, so I can see why people might find it more enjoyable. I'm not sure that the quality is ultimately that much better though. 

 

I'm really curious to see how S2 will do ratings wise, after the finale i did notice a lot of people saying they would be "dropping" Flash, we'll see.

I only watch Flash for fun, i'm not really invested in any of it.

[ruby24]

I think it comes from the likability of the cast. Especially Grant Gustin- he's supremely likable as Barry, and very natural on camera (even if he often comes across as a teenager), while SA has always been kind of stiff and dour. Cute, yes, but let's face it, he's never been the greatest or most expressive actor. But Barry's kind of like this big puppy dog who pulls you in- and then Tom Cavanagh and Jesse L. Martin elevate just about everything they're given as well. The Flash has the benefit of having an ensemble that works great together, and is allowed to not take itself so seriously all the time that helps people to enjoy the tone as being the perfect sort of light, comic-booky feel.