S06.E17: E-commerce, warehouse working conditions and business logistics

[formerlyfreedom]

Other segments: Donald Trump's trips to Japan, South Korea, and North Korea; Jared Kushner

[Annber03]

LMAO at "Slenderman's weird nephew" :D. Seriously, though, I know we're having a devil of a time trying to get Trump the hell out of here, but at the very least, can somebody please, for the love of God, get Kushner the hell out of dealing with anything relating to politics already? 

As for the Amazon stuff, ah, good ol' "trickle-down economics" bullshit strikes again. I love how that one video was all, "We aren't anti-union, but..." *Proceeds to list all the reasons why they don't want unions* 

That story about the woman dying and everyone still being made to work is horrifying. And the talk about pregnant women struggling with bathroom breaks made me also think about women and their time of the month. Sometimes you need multiple breaks for that stuff as well. But hey, who cares about any of that, I guess. This should absolutely be among the major issues for the Democrats to address going forward in the upcoming election (and, God willing, beyond). And if there's any way for workers to try and manage to form unions, I hope they fight like hell to do so. Take a page from how unions were formed back in the early 1900s and go from there. 

Shame we have to wait until the end of July for the show's return, but there's no doubt going to be a lot of big news happening between then and now (notably the Mueller testimony), so it'll be interesting to see how they respond to that when the show returns. 

[Gemma Violet]

I always assumed that Amazon and others had a system whereby a packer handled only a certain section and didn't have to walk across a football field-sized area to pack things.  Would it be so hard to change the system so that one worker handled one area?  Like one person packs only umbrellas and all the umbrellas from all the umbrella makers are stored in this one area of the packing plant.  What am I missing here?

[swanpride]

You know, I was always wondering about the workers for Amazon US. I mean, we over here even have a name for the exploitation of them: Package Slaves. And we at least have workplace rules (which amazon loves to subvert), while the US has next to none.

Now I know. And I am not surprised in the slightest.

[ahisma]

2 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Would it be so hard to change the system so that one worker handled one area?

I was thinking the same thing. Heck, if they want to add robotics, let the robot run the bin down to the worker in the section at the other end. And maybe add a few more bathrooms to the building.

Number 1 thing you can do for warehouse workers when shopping—choose standard shipping rather than 1 or 2 day.

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

This should absolutely be among the major issues for the Democrats to address going forward in the upcoming election (and, God willing, beyond).

I was so glad Jay Inslee brought up unions in the debate.

It's too bad the debates were only in the intro graphic. But they could have taken up the entire show and it's early days yet. I imagine he'll get into covering the race when the field has narrowed and it's closer to the actual primaries.

[Lantern7]

I feel smart when I know something about the topic. Granted, I learned about the hardships of Amazon workers from two episodes of South Park. It still counts, right? They had one poor bastard get manhandled by automation and stuffed into a box for the better part of the story.

”Uh-oh! Bear mace!!!”

[swanpride]

Honestly, organising the warehouses in a way that every worker has only to walk short distances would save Amazon a lot of money, too.

[Danny Franks]

So when people talk about the wonders of capitalism, and especially about the 'innovators' who drive it, this is the sort of shit they're ignoring.

Capitalism works great if you're Jeff Bezos, but it absolutely fucking sucks if you're the poor sap having to work a minimum wage job and get treated like garbage, just to afford the rent on your minuscule flat and to be able to buy food.

We always take the human beings out of the equation when we talk about the economy. Stocks go up, companies grow or fail, CEOs get rich. It's all about the cold numbers, and that never tells anything like the full picture. Progressive economists now talk about GDP as a useless measure, that tells us very little about the actual social and economic position of a country. But trying to introduce a more humanist approach to economics would, obviously, encroach on the obscene profits made by the people at the top, so cannot be allowed. Nor can unions be allowed, and the breaking of their power was the big success of the Thatcher and Reagan era governments.

We just give up more and more freedom to these people. We are told to look at Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk and other capitalist 'heroes' as inspirational figures rather than the opportunistic vultures that they are. And we're told to see anyone who calls that into question a threat and a 'destabilising force'.

[scarynikki12]

10 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

I always assumed that Amazon and others had a system whereby a packer handled only a certain section and didn't have to walk across a football field-sized area to pack things.  Would it be so hard to change the system so that one worker handled one area?  Like one person packs only umbrellas and all the umbrellas from all the umbrella makers are stored in this one area of the packing plant.  What am I missing here?

My guess is that this approach (which I agree is better) would require them to hire more people. I can't say with certainty, and Ollie didn't mention it, but I would bet that the warehouses operate with the bare minimum number of staff in order to save money. That's how every retail store in the country operates so why should Amazon be any different. Oh, and they won't add bathrooms because that would also cost them money. Even though there are lines for the ones they already have and the health issues that can come from holding it in too long.

And these expenses would be nothing compared to Amazon's profits but they don't care.

[ottoDbusdriver]

10 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 "Slenderman's weird nephew" 

That made me snort out loud, and then following it up with Gilbert Gottfried's voiceover was the cherry on top.

"The man is a once-in-a-generation orator, he's like Cicero reincarnated as a garbage disposal."

[Hooper]

Quote

Would it be so hard to change the system so that one worker handled one area?  Like one person packs only umbrellas and all the umbrellas from all the umbrella makers are stored in this one area of the packing plant.  What am I missing here?

I think the problem with that is that if everyone is assigned to a specific zone, there will always be some zones that are busier than others, and therefore some people will end up being less "productive" than others.  If it's a sunny day and no one is ordering umbrellas, then the worker  in the umbrella section will not be running his/her ass off, while the worker in the sunscreen section will be overwhelmed.   Of course umbrella guy could be reassigned to the sunscreen section when that's where the shipping action is, but that would require someone to think and to respond to changing conditions, and that person would have to be paid.  Can't have that.

[swanpride]

Sure, but walking across the whole warehouse takes time. It would make more sense of the workers were assigned to specific, overlapping areas. Meaning, if one area is particularly busy, the workers from the bordering, less busy areas can be temporarily assigned there, and then go back to just taking care of their area once it is done.

Amazon needs to invest in a software for that, which automatically does the math which worker to use to keep the walking time as short as possible, but if they do, they would actually need even less people in their warehouses.

Btw, the segment doesn't say it, but the reason why Amazon doesn't outsource their warehousing is simply because quality control is easier if all aspects of distribution are under your own control. It is also more efficient. They don't do it out of the goodness of their heart or because they worry about workers. If it were more convenient for them, they would do it.

[TexasGal]

57 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

That made me snort out loud, and then following it up with Gilbert Gottfried's voiceover was the cherry on top.

"The man is a once-in-a-generation orator, he's like Cicero reincarnated as a garbage disposal."

Every single time he does the Gottfried voiceover I laugh my head off.  I am never expecting it and it's funny to me every single time.  

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

My guess is that this approach (which I agree is better) would require them to hire more people. I can't say with certainty, and Ollie didn't mention it, but I would bet that the warehouses operate with the bare minimum number of staff in order to save money. That's how every retail store in the country operates so why should Amazon be any different. Oh, and they won't add bathrooms because that would also cost them money. Even though there are lines for the ones they already have and the health issues that can come from holding it in too long.

Yep.  They'd have to hire people who can compile the various different pulls into one order, or else ship in multiple packages which would cost money.  

[Lantern7]

I  forgot that Doctor Who covered that environment last year with "Kerblam!"

Does anyone else think that the monitoring devices could be used for the workers' good? Maybe send alerts for walking too many steps, monitor potential exhaustion, etc. And Amazon is so fucking big, Jeff Bezos would probably only have to send one less dick-shaped rocket into space. And that's a "maybe."

I don't use Amazon Prime. Most of the stuff I order isn't urgently needed. If I want friggin' Oreos, Amazon would be at the bottom of the list for me.

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, ahisma said:

Number 1 thing you can do for warehouse workers when shopping—choose standard shipping rather than 1 or 2 day.

I'll definitely be keeping that in mind whenever I order something.

Great segment on e-commerce. I knew a little about the horrors of working in those warehouses, but it's always good to be reminded and to learn new things, like their having to work around a dead body.

I knew there's some psychology that goes on with wealthy people who can't conceive of giving up some of their wealth while still maintaining their lifestyle, but I'm still appalled when someone like Bezos won't hire more workers and won't make work conditions better when he can clearly afford it. 

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Every single time he does the Gottfried voiceover I laugh my head off.  I am never expecting it and it's funny to me every single time.  

Me too. I howled when that started. 

That whole segment on Kushner was awesome. John's commentary was hilarious. I would love to be inside the heads of his audience when they heard his "plan." Jared and Ivanka are certainly a matched set, what with her efforts to converse with world leaders. 

Loved the Palestinian olive farmer. "You know you're fucking up your peace plan when you can't even get an actual olive farmer to extend an olive peace branch."

[iMonrey]

I was waiting to hear what kind of wages those warehouse workers made, and what kind of benefits they get. Did they ever address that? 

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

Amazon needs to invest in a software for that, which automatically does the math which worker to use to keep the walking time as short as possible, but if they do, they would actually need even less people in their warehouses.

That's what they want to do. It's the same philosophy as self-service checkouts in supermarkets. It's quicker and easier (supposedly) than queueing at a checkout and having someone working their second of three jobs scan your groceries. But the thought process behind it is 'we only need one human for every ten or so automated checkouts, which means we can fire nine people'.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I was waiting to hear what kind of wages those warehouse workers made, and what kind of benefits they get. Did they ever address that? 

 They said that Amazon recently agreed to pay their staff a minimum of $15 an hour. Which only happened because of pressure put on them when Bezos was trying to get some good publicity. As for benefits, I doubt they get much more than a discount when buying from Amazon.

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

That made me snort out loud, and then following it up with Gilbert Gottfried's voiceover was the cherry on top.

"The man is a once-in-a-generation orator, he's like Cicero reincarnated as a garbage disposal."

I love that Gottfried is always on hand whenever the show needs him for some goofy segment :p.

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Capitalism works great if you're Jeff Bezos, but it absolutely fucking sucks if you're the poor sap having to work a minimum wage job and get treated like garbage, just to afford the rent on your minuscule flat and to be able to buy food.

As somebody who's worked a minimum wage retail job, a-fucking-men. And yet these people can't figure out why the employee turnover rate is so high in those kinds of jobs. Gee. Yeah. It's a real mystery.

4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I don't use Amazon Prime. Most of the stuff I order isn't urgently needed. If I want friggin' Oreos, Amazon would be at the bottom of the list for me.

Right? There's grocery stores in your town you can go to if you really want Oreos. Why the hell would anyone need those mailed to them? 

I just order the occasional books/DVDs/CDs from Amazon, so yeah, not exactly something I need rushed out to me, either. And when I do order something online, it's because it's not available in my particular town and I may not have the means to drive to a nearby bigger city to get it. If I can find that stuff in stores where I live, I'll just go there instead. 

[snowwhyte]

Amazon only agreed to raise their wage to $15 an hour after Bernie Sanders introduced the Stop Bezos act which would have required them to reimburse the government for the government assistance their employees needed to claim to survive on their low wages.

Of course Amazon couldn't just do the right thing and pay a decent wage. They got rid of bonuses and an employee stock option scheme. They give with one hand and take with the other.

[swanpride]

Honestly...I actually don't order all that much from Amazon. Usually only what I can't easily get in the neighbourhood...and e-books. Whenever I want an actual book, there is a nice little bookshop around the corner.

[Annber03]

8 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Whenever I want an actual book, there is a nice little bookshop around the corner.

We sadly don't have any proper bookstores here in town anymore. The one I worked at in our local mall was part of a small Midwestern chain, and the entire chain shut down its stores for good a couple years ago. Which upset many people in the area, because a lot of people would come into our town from the more rural areas to do their shopping and would come to the bookstore. The only places to get books now in town are at Target or Wal-Mart, and even then, their book selections aren't huge. 

I'd love for another bookstore to come back to town. I'd happily go work in one again. 

[swanpride]

To be fair, the main reason why the one in my neighbourhood is still around is because Germany has the se called "Buchpreisbindung" (a fixed book price) ...meaning, Amazon can't underbid the smaller book shops, at least not regarding books from German publishers (imports are another matter).

And no, this doesn't exist to protect specifically the book shops, that is just a nice side-effect of a system designed to keep educational books affordable.

[mojoween]

In the “and now this” section one of the blurbs was something like “inside the buffet” and I really want to see that story.

Are there people out there that don’t know how hard it is to work in a warehouse?

The Walmart step-box was a good idea, even if the “improved” one seemed to be shorter, but it made me laugh that the one guy lifted the heavier step up by one handle with one hand and the other guy picked up the lighter one with both handles and two hands.

[Annber03]

2 minutes ago, mojoween said:

In the “and now this” section one of the blurbs was something like “inside the buffet” and I really want to see that story.

I loved that whole segment on "Inside Edition" 'cause it reminded me of my days watching "The Soup" poke fun at that show. My mom watches "Inside Edition" sometimes and that run-through of the stories pretty much sums up what that show is like.

Quote

Are there people out there that don’t know how hard it is to work in a warehouse?

If they do know, I get the feeling a lot of them don't care, given how rude people can be to those working in customer service in general, despite all the stories about how stressful those jobs can be. I imagine their feelings are something along the lines of, "They chose to do this job, and they're here to serve me, so..." 

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, mojoween said:

In the “and now this” section one of the blurbs was something like “inside the buffet” and I really want to see that story.

I wanted to see ALL of them! I don't watch Inside Edition. I thought it was all about celebrities. Anyway, seems like the promos are the best part. "NEXT!... PLUS!... AND!..."

[Rlb8031]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 10:20 AM, scarynikki12 said:

My guess is that this approach (which I agree is better) would require them to hire more people. I can't say with certainty, and Ollie didn't mention it, but I would bet that the warehouses operate with the bare minimum number of staff in order to save money. That's how every retail store in the country operates so why should Amazon be any different. Oh, and they won't add bathrooms because that would also cost them money. Even though there are lines for the ones they already have and the health issues that can come from holding it in too long.

And these expenses would be nothing compared to Amazon's profits but they don't care.

They don't care. They don't provide health insurance to most of their workers, so the attendant health care costs are the problem of the rest of us, rather than Bezos.

[BuyMoreAndSave]

On 7/1/2019 at 4:40 PM, Annber03 said:

Right? There's grocery stores in your town you can go to if you really want Oreos. Why the hell would anyone need those mailed to them?

I don't understand this either and it makes me concerned if we have really become that lazy as a society. The only places where it makes sense to order food online are those remote towns in Alaska and so on that have very limited access to certain foods otherwise. We stopped ordering from Amazon entirely a while ago for ethical reasons. We don't miss it. There's always somewhere else to find the same item.

When I saw the Facebook status about "we have to keep working while this lady's dead body is just lying here" I turned to my husband and was like "and that's why all the kids these days are into socialism." Did the billionaires want a proletariat uprising, because this kind of behavior is historically how they get one (plus people being phased out of the workforce altogether due to automation which is the dream of Bezos et al).

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

When I saw the Facebook status about "we have to keep working while this lady's dead body is just lying here" I turned to my husband and was like "and that's why all the kids these days are into socialism." Did the billionaires want a proletariat uprising, because this kind of behavior is historically how they get one (plus people being phased out of the workforce altogether due to automation which is the dream of Bezos et al).

Right? I love how people claim that millennials are greedy nowadays with our stances on the political issues. We want ourselves and others to be educated, to be able to cover the basics like food and shelter and have a job that isn't the kind of hellscape discussed in this episode, and not go bankrupt going to the hospital. How horrible of us!

Edited July 4, 2019 by Annber03

[swanpride]

Honestly, what the young american's want isn't even socialism per se. It is pretty much what people in most EU countries consider a given. In addition, we also think that having a few weeks of paid vacation each year is something completly normal. As is paternety leave.

[BabyVegas]

15 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

When I saw the Facebook status about "we have to keep working while this lady's dead body is just lying here" I turned to my husband and was like "and that's why all the kids these days are into socialism." Did the billionaires want a proletariat uprising, because this kind of behavior is historically how they get one (plus people being phased out of the workforce altogether due to automation which is the dream of Bezos et al).

I heard that line and immediately flashed to an episode of Better off Ted where an employee died and the company tried to turn it into motivation for people to work even harder. For a show that was supposed to be an absurdist comedy about a relentlessly evil corporation...apparently it wasn't very absurd.

15 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I don't understand this either and it makes me concerned if we have really become that lazy as a society. The only places where it makes sense to order food online are those remote towns in Alaska and so on that have very limited access to certain foods otherwise. We stopped ordering from Amazon entirely a while ago for ethical reasons. We don't miss it. There's always somewhere else to find the same item.

The only people I know who do this don't have a car so to them it's no different from using Instacart. And they consider it more convenient than spending the time busing or catching an Uber/Lyft to the grocery store. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by BabyVegas

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please stick to the topic of the show - this was not about any specific group, it was about e-commerce and logistics. Posts have been removed. Thank you

[DoctorAtomic]

On 6/30/2019 at 9:50 PM, Annber03 said:

And if there's any way for workers to try and manage to form unions, I hope they fight like hell to do so.

I wasn't surprised to watch that Amazon doesn't have a union for their workers, but it is disappointing. I wonder though if any of the problems the workers are having (bathroom breaks, etc.) would fall under OSHA violations? I would assume Amazon is subject to OSHA regulations like any other company. 

On 6/30/2019 at 10:08 PM, Gemma Violet said:

Would it be so hard to change the system so that one worker handled one area?  Like one person packs only umbrellas and all the umbrellas from all the umbrella makers are stored in this one area of the packing plant.  What am I missing here?

That's an interesting point because it does strike me as inefficient to walk 700 yards back and forth to pick up one thing and then back again. I would guess they're just not employing sufficient personnel. Though the overall 'rate' would likely increase significantly even if personal ones don't. 

On 7/1/2019 at 9:38 AM, swanpride said:

Amazon needs to invest in a software for that, which automatically does the math which worker to use to keep the walking time as short as possible, but if they do, they would actually need even less people in their warehouses.

This isn't an unsolvable problem either. And they could contract it out, so it's not like they have to hire someone full time to optimize the warehouses. I guess that goes back to having a union though. 

[buttercupia]

On 7/1/2019 at 4:40 PM, Annber03 said:

There's grocery stores in your town you can go to if you really want Oreos. Why the hell would anyone need those mailed to them? 

Disabled people depend on delivery. Until instacart and prime now and grocery delivery started being a thing, amazon was pretty much the only affordable way.

[Hooper]

Quote

Disabled people depend on delivery.

A few years ago, I broke my leg and had strict orders not to allow my injured leg to bear so much as an ounce of weight - so, not allow that foot to touch the ground.   What this meant was that I couldn't hold anything in my hands when I was moving, because both hands were firmly grasping crutches.  I live alone, and so routine things like carrying a cup of coffee from the pot to someplace to sit down to drink it became a daily adventure.  I have lovely neighbors who helped me out, but I'm only slightly ashamed to admit that I used Amazon a lot back then, not so much for the stuff that was actually delivered, but so that I could ask the nice UPS driver if s/he would be so kind as to take the trash out for me. As I've learned more about Amazon, I've come to hate them, and I no longer order anything from them.  I do have a soft spot in my heart for UPS though.

[swanpride]

Does UPS have German standards for the workers?

[andromeda331]

I used to work in a warehouse so most of it about Amazon didn't really surprise me. They really do only care about how many boxes you get out the door. Its not so bad during regular days but during the busy seasons good luck finding time to go to the bathroom. We never had anyone die but during the busy season its wasn't uncommon at all to have people passing out from the long hours, exhaustion, and lack of drinking. We had people trained to go check them out if they did. But I was very surprise about how unorganized it was. We had everything divided into sections and people just working those sections the box would come along and you'd put the item in. I'm really surprise Amazon has workers walking all over the warehouse. I assumed they had a similar system or better. We also had people during the busy seasons who's only job it was to go around relieving people for breaks, lunches and bathrooms. It didn't work that smoothly often times there were a handful of people who had to the bathroom at the same time. I'm really surprised Amazon doesn't have that either. 

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

On July 15, employees at the Shakopee facility plan to strike for about three hours at the end of the day shift and for about three hours at the start of the night shift. In the afternoon, workers also plan to rally outside the facility, located about 25 miles from Minneapolis.

In an effort to show solidarity, a handful of Amazon’s white collar-engineers intend to fly to Minnesota to join the demonstration, where activists will demand the company take action against climate change as well as easing quotas and making more temps permanent employees. “We’re both fighting for a livable future,” said Seattle software engineer Weston Fribley, one of several employees from the group Amazon Employees For Climate Justice who will be making the trip.

Quote

Workers are also pressing their case to the federal government, claiming their activism earlier this year was illegally punished. Workers filed a pair of complaints last week with the National Labor Relations Board. One complaint, filed against Amazon’s staffing vendor Integrity Staffing Solutions, alleges that it illegally retaliated against a worker who organizers say had been mobilizing co-workers for the March strike and was terminated as he was about to walk off the job to participate. Integrity didn’t provide a comment in response to Bloomberg’s inquiry.

The other complaint, filed against Amazon itself, claims the company retaliated against other workers who went on strike in March by deducting hours from their unpaid time off allotment. The hours they spent striking were counted against the 20 total hours workers can miss each quarter without being fired, according to organizers. Such actions could chill workplace activism and run afoul of federal law, even if they didn’t lead to any actual terminations, said Seattle University law professor Charlotte Garden.

Amazon Workers Plan Prime Day Strike at Minnesota Warehouse
 

Quote

Not surprisingly, Amazon took issue. “As a fan of the show, I enjoy watching John make an entertaining case for the failings of companies, governments and most recently – Mount Everest,” Clark said in a statement tweeted Monday. “But he is wrong on Amazon. Industry-leading $15 minimum wage and comprehensive benefits are just one of many programs we offer…” Read Clark’s full statement below.)

One of the most devastating portions of the Last Week episode was Oliver’s mockery of an Amazon promotional video in which warehouse and shipping workers were depicted participating in fun and funny for-the-camera shenanigans. One woman was shown affectionately hugging an Amazon shipping box, a scenario re-created in a Last Week parody video in which the employee repeatedly is ordered to hug a box.

But Clark says that Oliver and company ignored the fact that Amazon’s “safe, quality work environment” is visible to the public through tours and that “unlike over 100,000 other people this year, John and his producers did not take us up on our invitation to tour one of our facilities.”

Amazon Calls John Oliver’s Report On Warehouse Work

Edited July 11, 2019 by OneWhoLurks

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

If a late Wednesday afternoon tweet from Amazon is any indication, the HBO comedian's recent segment on the international juggernaut's warehouse conditions has hurt CEO Jeff Bezos' feelings. And, as the article tweeted by Amazon warns, if Oliver doesn't play nice then it will be Amazon's own workers who will suffer — as Bezos automates them right out of their jobs.

If you're scratching your head right now in confusion, you're not alone. The article, allegedly written by an Amazon "sortation center" employee in West Sacramento, California, was shared by the company in a transparent effort to change the peeing-in-trashcans narrative that surrounds the company. 

"Two sides to every story," reads the tweet linking to the article in question, "an Amazon sortation center associate provided their perspective about the recent coverage of our working conditions[.]"

Quote

UPDATE: July 24, 2019, 5:38 p.m. PDT: Welp, that didn't take long. Amazon deleted the tweet.

Amazon tweets article warning robots will replace workers if John Oliver isn't nicer